(infant) Mortality From Motorbikes

[suiging]

A passing anthropologist in the pub told me within two generations from now ( according to Darwin ) , Thailand will be home to the cleverest Nation on earth.

Not only do the dumbest of the race kill themselves like Lemmings on the roads every day, they also take their off-spring along for the ride........!!!

With natural selection, he is probably right.

[Johpa]

I think it comes down to the fact most Thai people do not consider risk at all.

It is far more a function of economics: most Thais are not like the wealthy Farangs that predominate on Thai Visa living the good life with high wages in the tech world or retirees, but relatively poor folks who can't afford a car and for whom a motorcycle is the best option for family transportation. Of course they consider the risks, and they tend to drive far more conservatively when the family is on board.

[a2396]

not sensitive,getting used to it now.my view is thai ting tong,thai buddhism,thai not think.

BUT UP TO THEM

The only interest i have is for my family to be safe and try not to be involved with craziness.

Thai not think is, unfortunately, pervasive at many levels here. The total disregard for safety issues is quite shocking. Of course, many people have no other means of transportation, but one would think they could scrape up enough bht to add a side-car to the bike, if they have to carry children. Aside from that, there is no shortage of speeding, driving with no lights, driving the wrong direction, inattentiveness, etc, etc. I suppose they think all aspects of their life, are up to fate and their actions have no relevance to what happens.

[PeaceBlondie]

Of course, the Thais dearly love their children, especially the little ones. I admire Heng showing genuine concern for poor folks in this thread, unlike his usual put-on elitist attitude.

During the Cold War, Sting wrote a song, "The Russians love their children, too." We are not that different from Thais. As Jopha just mentioned, above, most of us have the money for 1,500 baht helmets and cars with working safety harnesses. At least Somchai is spending time with his kids, rather than working 15 hour days at an air-conditioned office so he can buy a Benz, and spend his last days singing Harry Chapin's sad song about neglecting your children ("Cat's in the Cradle").

[Heng]

What's elitist? I just recognize that we all have different standards, and even for those who think they have "higher" standards, there's always someone with even higher standards. Por ejemplo, many would say you should probably be spending more than 1,500 Baht for a motorcycle helmet, at the very least shelling out for any entry level Arai, Suomy, or Shoei brain protector. "Elitist" is all of the folks making condescending remarks based on their often 'not so elite' standards.

[canuckamuck]

I have noticed that the majority of motorcylce drivers with children on board, tend to drive at a lower rate of speed and are more cautious, especially the ladies. What really gets me steamed are those that take stupid risks, cut people off, drive fast, and so on, especially the ones with three or more passegers. There should be serious penalties for that, however there seems to be no enforcement of unsafe driving laws, perhaps there are none.

Actually if there is no checkstop in place, there seems to be no enforcement of anything at all.

[clausewitz]

I love seeing the kids and whole family on one motorbike, a nice cultural element. Why live in thailand if you want it to be a replica of Germany or Japan?

Last month I saw Mum , dad and three children (they passed me as I was driving near Rangsit) on a Honda. Anyone seen 6 on a bike?

[moneyshot]

Yes, organised chaos sums it up well. When did you go? I've just come back from there and the majority seemed to be wearing helmets. I don't drive the foul things, so wasn't particularly taking notice, but I seem to remember thinking it was usual to wear them.

I was last there in 2006, maybe they have started wearing them-although I doubt everyone could change so quick.

Here is a photo of the evening rush, looks like a market but everyone is on a motorbike.

[Herbs]

I love seeing the kids and whole family on one motorbike, a nice cultural element. Why live in thailand if you want it to be a replica of Germany or Japan?

Last month I saw Mum , dad and three children (they passed me as I was driving near Rangsit) on a Honda. Anyone seen 6 on a bike?

Yes, it is a lovely sight isn't it! Riding along, falling off, broken limbs or worse.

I really do not understand why one cannot point out the stupidity of kids on motorbikes without being accused of being an elitist farang. It is not anti-Thai or smug elitism, but, taking a caring human attitude.

[anon345535]

it's simple really... get a babysitter you mongaloids!!!!!!!!!!!!

edit^ and if for some reason that aint possible... get a taxi you mongaloids!!!! and if that aint possible... wear a condom you mongaloids!!!!

Edited June 23, 2008 by c411um

[Sakeopete]

Worst one I remember reading a few months ago was the 6 month old baby who's leg was torn off when his blanket was caught in the motorcycle chain.

[girlx]

It's all relative. I do agree that talking on the phone while operating any vehicle is stupidity in motion, but then again so is having kids when all you own is a motorcycle, when you don't even own a home, when you don't have any idea or haven't even started to plan as to how you will pay for their education, when your own lack of financial planning means they will have to be slaves to financial institutions in the future, etc.

i agree. the answer is to stop having kids.

[thaiclan]

I found this site

http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20se...capita-2004.htm

Its the "Multi-Country Per Capita and VMT/VKmT Fatality Data for 2004

Page first published on September 3, 2005, and last updated on October 16, 2005"

Interestingly Thailand doesnt even make the list, yet countries like Malaysia, Turkey, Estonia do.

Also useful...http://www.safecarguide.com/exp/statistics/statistics.htm which puts fatalities in South East Asia far behind India, Africa, China and the America, and only slightly above Europe.

I also read somewhere that gloabally the third leading cause of premature death after heart disease, cancer are road deaths. :-(

[PeaceBlondie]

What's elitist? I just recognize that we all have different standards, and even for those who think they have "higher" standards, there's always someone with even higher standards. Por ejemplo, many would say you should probably be spending more than 1,500 Baht for a motorcycle helmet, at the very least shelling out for any entry level Arai, Suomy, or Shoei brain protector. "Elitist" is all of the folks making condescending remarks based on their often 'not so elite' standards.

Mai bpen rai, buddy. I was referring to the (mostly former) posts you have often made, about living in a gated community, having a driver, wanting to send your kids to private schools, speaking as if you were even more hi-so than you may be. I was commending your remarks in this thread for being genuinely concerned about poor people.

Agreed, even a 1,500-baht Nolan helmet with no DOT stickers is nowhere near the top of the line, but it saved my head and face in the wreck that ruined my humerus. I wish to God my dead student-genius had at least worn something on his head.

[toptuan]

I think it comes down to the fact most Thai people do not consider risk at all.

"It wont happen to me" attitude...

Agreed. The "risk-averse" computer chip is simply missing from their brains. Culprit: popular culture

[Heng]

Mai bpen rai, buddy. I was referring to the (mostly former) posts you have often made, about living in a gated community, having a driver, wanting to send your kids to private schools, speaking as if you were even more hi-so than you may be. I was commending your remarks in this thread for being genuinely concerned about poor people.

No worries to your mai pen rai, PB, although anything I may have said is the same as what I'm saying today... just matter of fact statements.

[toptuan]

A passing anthropologist in the pub told me within two generations from now ( according to Darwin ) , Thailand will be home to the cleverest Nation on earth.

Not only do the dumbest of the race kill themselves like Lemmings on the roads every day, they also take their off-spring along for the ride........!!!

With natural selection, he is probably right.

No, trying to get university administrators (Ph.D.'s) to accept the fact that they have serious risk problems throughout their facilities on campus is just as hard of a job.

On the average, one student a month loses his/her life on our campus. Most of it is due to avoidable hazards and lack of campus traffic enforcement. Last year, at night in a busy on-campus outdoor food market, an honors student had an epileptic seizure, tumbled into a dark moat and drowned. Because the moat was so dark, no one saw him. A few area lights and even a weak fence could probably have saved him. I made the suggestion, but it was ignored as usual.

So, the best and brightest are unfortunate victims as well.

Edited June 23, 2008 by toptuan

[Maigo6]

I really do not understand why one cannot point out the stupidity of kids on motorbikes without being accused of being an elitist farang. It is not anti-Thai or smug elitism, but, taking a caring human attitude.

Easily said when sitting in front of your computer in a Western country with your Car parked outside.

I'm sure that these uncaring Thai folk would swap situations with you and have a car to move their family around in, plain fact is, many cannot aford it.

Coming to Thailand on a holiday spending more on airfares than many Thai familys earn in a Year, then criticizing their way of life in comparison with your own is rather harsh. And if you had been bought up in the Thai society as a Thai with limited funds, you also would take your kids on a motorcycle when you needed to.

Would you go to an Ethiopian village and critisize the people for not being able to feed their children as well as one could in the Western world ?

The poorer Thais could live your pampered lifestyle easily, you wouldn't last a week living theirs.

[Herbs]

I really do not understand why one cannot point out the stupidity of kids on motorbikes without being accused of being an elitist farang. It is not anti-Thai or smug elitism, but, taking a caring human attitude.

Easily said when sitting in front of your computer in a Western country with your Car parked outside.

I'm sure that these uncaring Thai folk would swap situations with you and have a car to move their family around in, plain fact is, many cannot aford it.

Coming to Thailand on a holiday spending more on airfares than many Thai familys earn in a Year, then criticizing their way of life in comparison with your own is rather harsh. And if you had been bought up in the Thai society as a Thai with limited funds, you also would take your kids on a motorcycle when you needed to.

Would you go to an Ethiopian village and critisize the people for not being able to feed their children as well as one could in the Western world ?

The poorer Thais could live your pampered lifestyle easily, you wouldn't last a week living theirs.

I don't agree. I think part of the problem is that advice and observations are taken as criticisms. No, I would not go to Ethiopia and critisize the people for not being able to feed their children, but I would try to help them feed them. Bad example in my opinion. By your standards everything is relative to the situation - I don't think all things are relative - we can state what we think is wrong and right. In my opinion, putting a child on a motorbike is wrong. That is my opinion, you are welcome to disagree...

[moneyshot]

I don't agree with putting a kid on a motorbike either but for poorer Thais, they do not have the choice.

Fair enough, but what I don't understand is how they can drive so dangerously with their kids onboard. I quite often see people with kids on motorbikes passing in the inside lane at high speeds in traffic or not looking at all whilst turning into moving traffic.

They just don't seem able to calculate risk...

[Heng]

I really do not understand why one cannot point out the stupidity of kids on motorbikes without being accused of being an elitist farang. It is not anti-Thai or smug elitism, but, taking a caring human attitude.

Easily said when sitting in front of your computer in a Western country with your Car parked outside.

I'm sure that these uncaring Thai folk would swap situations with you and have a car to move their family around in, plain fact is, many cannot aford it.

Coming to Thailand on a holiday spending more on airfares than many Thai familys earn in a Year, then criticizing their way of life in comparison with your own is rather harsh. And if you had been bought up in the Thai society as a Thai with limited funds, you also would take your kids on a motorcycle when you needed to.

Would you go to an Ethiopian village and critisize the people for not being able to feed their children as well as one could in the Western world ?

The poorer Thais could live your pampered lifestyle easily, you wouldn't last a week living theirs.

I don't agree. I think part of the problem is that advice and observations are taken as criticisms. No, I would not go to Ethiopia and critisize the people for not being able to feed their children, but I would try to help them feed them. Bad example in my opinion. By your standards everything is relative to the situation - I don't think all things are relative - we can state what we think is wrong and right. In my opinion, putting a child on a motorbike is wrong. That is my opinion, you are welcome to disagree...

Nothing wrong with stating what's right and wrong. Nothing wrong with stating what is stupid and what is not. What's stupid is making condescending/labeling comments (I don't think anyone has accused you of this...) about situations where one would be exhibiting exactly or at least very similar behavior if one were to trade places with the object of one's criticisms.

[Heng]

I don't agree with putting a kid on a motorbike either but for poorer Thais, they do not have the choice.

Fair enough, but what I don't understand is how they can drive so dangerously with their kids onboard. I quite often see people with kids on motorbikes passing in the inside lane at high speeds in traffic or not looking at all whilst turning into moving traffic.

They just don't seem able to calculate risk...

Absolutely. But no different than folks who move here, start families... and then suddenly discover the visa regulations. In one case lives may be ended suddenly, in the other, it's often a more slow/drawn out death.

[Maigo6]

In my opinion, putting a child on a motorbike is wrong. That is my opinion, you are welcome to disagree...

So your solution to the poor of Thailand and many many other countries is what ?

Be realistic in your response, think about why the kids are on a motorcycle in the first place, think of the possible alternatives like leaving your kids unattended in a house whilst the mother goes to the market that may well not be within walking distance. If the mother left her kids in the house unattended and the kids were burned to death in a fire what would us westerners think about that, what would the response be on this Forum........

Perhaps something like this :

"She had a motorcycle, why couldn't she take her 2 kids with her to the market like countless other Thai's do, I see it all the time, has to safer than leaving them at home, typical uncaring Thai, whatever was she thinking! " ?

[Maigo6]

I don't agree with putting a kid on a motorbike either but for poorer Thais, they do not have the choice.

Fair enough, but what I don't understand is how they can drive so dangerously with their kids onboard. I quite often see people with kids on motorbikes passing in the inside lane at high speeds in traffic or not looking at all whilst turning into moving traffic.

They just don't seem able to calculate risk...

Absolutely. But no different than folks who move here, start families... and then suddenly discover the visa regulations. In one case lives may be ended suddenly, in the other, it's often a more slow/drawn out death.

Haha.....

[MSingh]

I think it comes down to the fact most Thai people do not consider risk at all.

"It wont happen to me" attitude...

Fair enough many families cant afford a car but to be on the phone whilst driving a scooter with four kids is just crazy! I wonder how the parent would feel after having an accident due to their plain stupidity.

It honestly, honestly strikes me as if they don't sense/feel/see danger as we seem to perceive it in the West, that's not knocking Thai people, it's just saying it as i see it.. I wonder if it comes down to Religeous beliefs more than a " it wont' happen to me attitude " ??

There has been plenty of occasions & too many for uit to be coincidental where i have seen Thai people put their Children in jeapordy with the use of Motorbikes, or perhaps i should rephrse it, pleanty of times i ahve seen Thai people put their Children in what is OUR perception of jeapordy..

& i have to agree with Heng on a point he made & got damned for, i'm sure that these people would rather have a Jeep for their own & Chuildrens safety but we simply can't have everything we want & many can not afford to buy what some of us take for granted, it's as simple as that unfortuantely..

[Heng]

dam_n Heng!

[Heng]

Maigo, you hold'em, I'll kick'em in the b@lls. Then we'll switch.

[mizzi39]

I think it comes down to the fact most Thai people do not consider risk at all.

"It wont happen to me" attitude...

Fair enough many families cant afford a car but to be on the phone whilst driving a scooter with four kids is just crazy! I wonder how the parent would feel after having an accident due to their plain stupidity.

It honestly, honestly strikes me as if they don't sense/feel/see danger as we seem to perceive it in the West, that's not knocking Thai people, it's just saying it as i see it.. I wonder if it comes down to Religeous beliefs more than a " it wont' happen to me attitude " ??

There has been plenty of occasions & too many for uit to be coincidental where i have seen Thai people put their Children in jeapordy with the use of Motorbikes, or perhaps i should rephrse it, pleanty of times i ahve seen Thai people put their Children in what is OUR perception of jeapordy..

& i have to agree with Heng on a point he made & got damned for, i'm sure that these people would rather have a Jeep for their own & Chuildrens safety but we simply can't have everything we want & many can not afford to buy what some of us take for granted, it's as simple as that unfortuantely..

I do not think it has anything to do with a religious (it can't happen to me) attitude, but more out of necessity. Yes, I do agree that what would make the 11 o'clock news in the west is common place here. When I found out that my wife was pregnant, I bought a car. Fortunately i could afford to, but many Thais simply cannot. Many Thais can barely afford their 1000 baht a month motorbike payment. It costs just as much to buy a car in the LOS as it will cost you in the west, yet look at the average Thai income. Personally i get a sick feeling every time i see dad, mom, and baby on a motorbike thinking about the "what if" then I remind myself that i am no longer living in the west, therefore you learn the accept things that you normally would not accept in your mother country, But then again I often wonder how an average Thai would tolerate the "righteous west" attitude

Edited June 23, 2008 by mizzi39

[bonobo]

Every time I see this, which is umpteen times every day, I think "Do they love their children?"

there may be an incentive to disguise the cause of death if, say, drunken driving was involved.

No of course they don't love their children, they choose to have a motorcycle instead of a car and a child seat just so they can try to kill them, after all, they are only Thai, not like us superior westerners eh?

You think if strict laws were not imposed in the western world that people would bother with the expense of a child seat, yeah yeah, I know............westerners are different, all caring and loving family unit etc etc..

I never had one when I was a kid....why not? cos it was not a requirement by law at that time, that's why.

The drink driving laws are very lax in Thailand, and for many Farangs it's a good thing, as many Farang that I know drive whilst totally slaughtered.

Sorry, but I don't buy that arguement. I didn't ride in a car seat when I was young, either, but that was because my folks did not know about them then. I did wear the old lap seat belts because that was considered to be the height of safety at the time.

This phenomenon is merely an observation of Thai culture. It is not a matter of "superior" and inferior as you post. My Thai friends point out many western practices which are not conducive to a happy and healthy life, and the logic they use is really unrefutable. But in driving, Thai practices are generally not as safe as those in the West, and excepting that of Greece, the driving mortality rate would reflect that.

[bonobo]

I have been having that Sting song going on over and over in my mind as I have been reading this forum.