War on striptease and nude shows

[MekhongKurt]

The growth of this thread is interesting, as it shows how deeply and how broadly corruption is seen to permeate Thai society and appears to cut into people's hearts.

Some posters have applauded the current government for doing something to root out governmental corruption.  Well, yes, *any* such effort is better than *none.*  Yet it would -- beyond argument, I believe -- receive far more support were that effort to net more than the little fish.  Look at the current scandal involving the police resulting from allegations by a massage parlor kind; there have been tranfers to "inactive posts," but not one single general has suffered that indignity.  Further, I've not seen a single report that anyone has even *thought* about pressing criminal charges against police officers believed to be guilty of corruption.  Sources in business claim the demands for monthly tea money from the police continue absolutely the same as before.  In other words, at least some of the anti-corruption activities being carried out by the government, even against little fish, appear to observers as cosmetic only.

As for prositution, as one's opinion on this subject involves, necessarily, one's religious views or lack of any, emotion gets involved on such a fundamental level that logical debate is difficult, at best.  Long before I ever thought about coming to Asia, I sometimes would argue with my Anglican parish priest about this topic, asking why it is that Christianity in general condemns prostitutes when Mary of Magdelene was herself a prostitute.

On the practical level of day-to-day living, I know a number of ladies who have the option of getting out of the flesh trade, but *choose* not to do so.  Personally, if a woman wishes to offer sex in exchange for money and if a man agrees to give her that money (or jewelry or whatever it is she wants), and if they both are adults, I see little room for any of the rest of us to judge them.  Could we not make the argument that on one level for a woman to choose (1.) not to work, (2.) to marry, (3.) to be a housewife not engaged in any activity to bring money into the home is not so very different insofar as money is concerned?  And please don't bring up the fact that presumably a woman so doing loves her husband while a prostitute doesn't love her customer -- I'm talking *only* about the financial aspects.

Anyway, this is a fascinating thread.

[ChiangMaiThai]

Differing opinions but could be the ideal solution. All the old hands say the naughty nightlife is not as it was. (like everything else)

Maybe making it more discreet but legitimate would satisfy everyone. All the punters would be happy and the Govt. could rake a fortune in. Perhaps this is the start of it.

Not  a bad point. Drive it into the shadows so we can have the more exciting night life of a decade or two ago. But I just think that since its always going to go on no matter what, it should be tolerated, the girls should be educated to use condoms, the government should tax 'services offered' and use this money to help the people.

[massein]

Does anyone here really think that the power's that be, really care about the welfare of the masses in Thailand. I think not!

They care only about keeping there status as superior beings, as ordain bye Buddha The industylist that run this country, make for more for the dollor invested than there equivelent western country part. Yes make the police responsive to the law, and to protecting the people.serving the ppl as many other police around the world do. without bribes and rewards other than there salery. The average policeman makes far more than the average farmer. In Thailand. stop condoning bad behavior and corruption. Most police departments consider there police underpaid as well. The ppl of Thailand deserve honest police and governemnt

[plachon]

Hey guys, chill out and think this thru' calmly. What sparked this whole thread was the fact some govt. bigwig went down to Nana and claimed he counted "27 places" showing lewd or obcene shows. So in other words he was counting regular Go-Go joints in his total. He says they want to close down these places as they "bring the low life tourists that Thailand no longer wants or needs". So, if he's a man of his word he'll be shut them all down and bye-bye goes all the clientele down to Nana and anyweher else they decide to clamp down on. But TiT and he's a politician and this kind of thing happens all the time and pretty soon things return to normal again (any body been down Nana lately to report on reality, cos I haven't?).

But what's different with this govt. is the boss has an absolute majority, there's nobody challenging him and he rather likes the feeling of absolute power. this is a first for a "democratic" govt., and so there's nothing to comapre it with in the past. So let's just suppose that Toxin is a moral crusader and is serious about cleaning up Thailand's image for real, instead of just hot air, and he wants to show a squeaky clean image to all the boys and girls at the APEC meeting in Oct. Then Thailand might have a problem, cos he's going to naff off a lot of people beforehand, and then let down a load of people at the meeting itself who had Patpong very much on their itinery of "must-sees". If it's all sanitised, then they're going to go home disappointed, as i know even married, middle-class "repectable" British women who enjoyed the whole scene down there. Not my cup of tea, nowadays, but then I went there, saw it and got bored 12 years ago.

Of course, Thailand, is much, much more than Bangkok's infamous nightlife and the other things good about life here are why i choose to stay. But it's the other things that are also being attacked by this present administration, as it has such an outright majority, and it's these areas that i worry about. Unfortunately, this guy is in the driving seat for the foresseable future, so don't expect the "sabai, sabai" attitude to get any sabai-er any time soon. Think nationalism and erosion of freedoms.........................

[buasaard]

Re prostitution, please do not preach about a profession that has been alive and thriving for well over 300 years in the LOS

Sorry but this is not true. Infact prostitution in Thailand started in the late 1800 by chinese immigrant in Sampeng ,a Bangkok suburb and was directed to chinese people. Just in 1934 prostitution started to spread outside Sampeng when King Rama VII prohibited poligamy, because "mia nois" didn't have their support anymore.

So everybody stop saying that prostitution is part of thai culture.

In addition regarding corruption, this would not stop the efforts if a government really want.

Infact in another field Thailand had already a success, namely in the heroin production.

In the 60-70s people said the same, Thailand would never stop trading heroin, because of corruption. But instead the government succeeded to give up with opium cultures (very few are left in Thailand) and Thailand is not anymore the main hub for heroin trading (I don't say heroin trading does not exist anymore, but it is limited).

Finally I don't know if this government is making seriously, but beginning to talk about the problem is already a good start.

Before you criticise Thailand, try looking at the Philappines

We are not criticizing Thailand, you are doing that saying that Thailand couldn't live without farangs that come for sex.

[flackjacket]

In reply to Buasaard, peoplle are not saying that Thailand cannot survive without the tourist sex trade, if you can read between the lines you will see that the tourist sex trade( even apart from the "sex shows" does bring in a sizeable income, like it or not. Even if prostitution was brought in by nthe Chinese for the Chinese, it certainly is not the sole perogative of the Chinese. Hard line prostitution ie. that massivly flourishing in massage parlours, is almost totally supported by Thai men. It has BECOME a Thai way of life.

Please do not tell me that "Second Wives" are not flourishing still, because they are and have been flourishing from the very top for a very long time.

An adage some members if the Government should pay heed to is "Those in glass houses should not throw stones".

[buasaard]

I don't want this thread becomes a discussion between me and you, but as I wrote in a similar thread, I think that reducing (thinking of eliminating would be foolish), prostitution would be of benefit to tourism in Thailand.

Infact I read in other forums that a lot of people do not come to Thailand because of the bad reputation, and if this reputation improves, more families would come ,and families spend more than singles, with benefit to the country(of course I am thinking to a good management), it is just a consideration, the government must do what is better for their citizens not for a few foreigners, and earning more from tourism (and I strongly believe that reducing reputation is of benefit) it better for their citizens.

As I said I'm not a Taksin fan, it reminds me too much Berlusconi (I'm italian), but if he manage to do something one point for him! We are not discussing if this is a good government ,but if they must go ahead on"War on striptease and nud_e shows".

Which is your solution, leave everything as it is now?

[wolf5370]

Here, here again Busaard.

Sorry MekhongKurt, I see your points regarding corruption in particular police corruption. But in the USA police corruption was massive with large mafia control - it was the country catching who they could, low rankers, that dobbed in the chiefs. It takes time and pressure (and someone like Superco) to do this. If the pressure continues and lower ranking police are replaced by men of duty, then the larger fish will fall - they will have to do their own collecting, and will get caught.

A lot of people here are talking about prositution being age old and unstoppable. Many point to the fact that (according to a thread a while back) the largest clientel of these places by far is local - i.e. Thai. I still read the message to be a need for Thailand to clear up its image - whatever the reason may be. This is good as it helps raise the image with tourists and businesses alike. Sex tourists will still come and will still find their honeypot, but maybe they will have to look for it rather than it being rammed down their, and everyone else's, throat - in some place anyhow.

[flackjacket]

I do not suggest that things are left the way they are, far from it I agree that it needs cleaning up but how about starting with the big fish, those who run the vast massage parlours that are 95% supported by Thais, this is where the AIDS are spread not the girlie bars, most sensible tourists wear condoms, they are not influnced by the "Its not macho to use a condom" image. It always seems that the Thai Government try to hit or clean up the Foreign trade first, the bulk of the problem is like an iceburg, under the surface.

To be deadly serious (if I can) , it could work, it did in Singapore at the end of the 60s. I was there and saw it all. It was not popular, bars of shady nature closed, no juke boxes, no long hair. DEATH for any drug offences no matter how small.

Tourism is still big in Singapore today, industry is strong especially in aviation, the island is really CLEAN and it is safe to walk the streets at night. A far cry from the 60s, but it did take draconian measures. Just a side thought, Singapore was an ex British colony, it does not seem to have held them back!! Mind you Lee Kwan Yew was a very special person.

Even managed to wipe out most of the corruption. Sadly I will not live to see that day in Thailand.

[MaiChai]

I think we are all missing the point of why this is being done. A very simple reason, Mr Bush is paying a visit, and the government is rushing around putting its house in order, so they don't look bad to the very important visitor. This is not the only area being affected, I am sure we will be lots of last minute rushing round, so the Thais can impress their visitor.

And I wonder if Bush will still come, what with arresting that terrorist in Malaysia (or was it Thailand?) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152263.stm

[MekhongKurt]

wolf5370 wrote:

"But in the USA police corruption was massive with large mafia control - it was the country catching who they could, low rankers, that dobbed in the chiefs. It takes time and pressure (and someone like Superco) to do this. If the pressure continues and lower ranking police are replaced by men of duty, then the larger fish will fall - they will have to do their own collecting, and will get caught."

I have to take exception to the contention that "police corruption was massive," unless the verb "was" refers to the Prohibition era.

I worked as a police officer and security agent 1971-1981.  In that decade, I became aware of one -- and JUST one -- police officer under investigation by the F.B.I. because he was suspected of being involved in a burglary ring.

Yes, 35-40 narcotics detectives were arrested in New Orleans for corruption and other criminal activity a few years ago.  Yes, the Rampart Division of the Los Angeles Police Department was rocked by massive scandal when it was discovered dozens of detectives there lied, planted evidence, etc.  Yes, the Knapp Commission uncovered widespread corruption in the New York Police Department 3 decades ago (and unwittingly provided the impetus for the movie "Serpico").

At the last count I knew, there were around 200,000 uniformed law enforcement personnel in the United States.  The instances I cited above constitute but a tiny, tiny fraction of those men and women.  I would love to see proof positive that even a substantial minority of them are corrupt in any way whatsoever.  In my experience -- and I maintain ties with the American law enforcement community to this day -- most officers are ordinary people with ordinary expectations doing an extraordinary job.

When I became a police officer I took an oath, one that often is derided and mocked as being corny.  The short version of that oath is that I -- and every police officer -- swears to serve and protect the public.  Think about the words "serve" and "protect."  As a person trained in the English language through both the B.A. and M.A. levels and a person who *taught* the language for 20 years at university level, I believe I have a fairly good idea of those words' meanings.

And anyone competent in the English language understands those words' fundamental meanings.

To presume a law officer is corrupt in the United States of America simply because he or she *is* a law officer is ludicrous.  When I was a security agent and reached the rank of lieutenant, one of the several hats I wore was Chief of Internal Affairs -- i.e., it was my duty to investigate allegations of wrong-doing by other agents.  Sometimes this required me to become involved in internal affairs' investigations of other law enforcement agencies.

And you know what? -- very few of those allegations turned out to be true.  And neither I nor any other internal affairs investigator I ever knew covered up a single thing; we were interested in rooting out the bad apples that gave the rest of us such a bad name.  If anyone chooses not to believe that, it certainly is a person's right to hold whatever belief he or she wishes.  Just don't accuse us in public forums of corruption without any backing evidence.

I was not corrupt -- despite having many, many opportunities to be so.  I *worked* for my 4 or 5 dollars an hour.  Did sometimes someone buy me a cup of coffee or an hamburger for my simply doing my job? -- yes, on rare occasion.  Does that qualify as "corruption"? -- I guess in the extreme it does.  But if a friend, not a law enforcement person, buys *you a meal for a favor you've done, then you'll have to classify that friend's action as corrupt too, if you think me to have been corrupt.

I took my oath seriously.  And though I have not worked in law enforcement in 22 years, I still consider myself bound by that oath; oaths don't come with self-destruct time limits.  An oath is forever.

[Alberta]

I strongly suspect that I will either be flamed or ignored....but in contrast with the posts I read above, I applaud what the Thai government is doing.  The commercial sex industry in Thailand has been the source of much suffering, disease, and (in more recent years) death.  The industry isn't going to be eliminated, of course, but if it could be driven back into the shadows where it was when I first arrived in Thailand 40 years ago, that would be most welcome.

Right on buddy!

[Butterfly]

Cleaning up the sleaze pits for a while doesn't seem like a problem. If they go after the more routine gogo bars, and the farang business that goes with it, the anti farang sentiment will really hit home. Unfortunately, I think they're headed that way, one step at a time.

 :cool:

This is being done.

In Nana, girls have now to register with the police with id and their home paper address and everything. If the bar owner hire girls not in the police register without proper id or below 20 year old, then the bar closes for ever.

The Phillipines is exactly what will happen to Thailand if tourists stop coming here. The Philipines is a shit hole that nobody wants to go to. Where are the thousand of tourists who were supposed to come after the bars closed ? nowhere. It will be the same with Thailand. Don't expect the "masses" to come to Thailand to replace the "low life" farangs in the bars. The numbers don't add up and the "mass tourist" that Thailand would expect from closing the bars are not going to be big spenders either. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Welcome to Thailand.

[buasaard]

In Nana, girls have now to register with the police with id and their home paper address and everything. If the bar owner hire girls not in the police register without proper id or below 20 year old, then the bar closes for ever.

In any country (at least in Europe) I think workers are registered, and must pay welfare contribution, and allowing to work people not registered (an without paying the contriboution) is a serious matter.

Of course being registered by the police is a serious concern, and surely would have been better if the girls (as any other worker) would have been registered by the labour department (if exists one), but we know that this government likes "strong manners".

Regarding Thailand and Philippines, frankly I don't think they can be compared, for a few reasons :

1) Philippines is a christian country, and as such is more similar in the culture to european countries, so the "cultural tourists" would be more attracted by the diversity of Thailand (who would like to see Philippines churches when there are beautiful ones in Europe?)

2) Philippines from Europe are two, three hours flight farther than Thailand, and many people are already concerned of the flight duration, that  hardly they want to add three hours more.It is closer to west american coast, but it seems to me that there are more european tourists than american.

3) I read reports that small criminality is more active in Philippines than in Thailand, and people is concerned about this, not to mention the terrorism in the southern islands.

Thailand and Philippines are rival in tourism, but the advantages are all on Thailand side.

I think different, Thailand would have more tourism income reducing prostitution and frankly I think that one country can't depend on prostitution to improve trade balance.

[Nakhon1]

I applaud any attempt to clean up the "farang" orientated sex industry albeit likely doomed to failure.

It actually hits the Thai tourist industry. Many westerners stay away because of the bad name Thailand has in this respect.

I find it embarrasing when returning to England to admit I am resident in Thailand. Peolpe immediately equate me with the sad ex-pats who haunt the seedier areas.

[Butterfly]

It would take years to take away that reputation and with a greater cost. The phillipines never recovered from that reputation in part because most girls are now "freelancers" in night clubs anyhow. The place is a dump and a dangerous dump.

Thailand is definitely safer than the Philipines and so far prostitution in Phuket has not stopped the growth explosion of the island despite the fact that the destination is a world wide favorites for couples in their honey moon. Therefore your point with less prostitution does not hold a bit. It's pure "moral" rethoric and "right wing" rant.

People who want to visit Thailand without prostitution can do it by not going to the hot spots. These people who claim they don't want to go there because of prostitution are politically motivated and would always find another excuse not to go there.

[Alberta]

It would take years to take away that reputation and with a greater cost. The phillipines never recovered from that reputation in part because most girls are now "freelancers" in night clubs anyhow. The place is a dump and a dangerous dump.

Thailand is definitely safer than the Philipines and so far prostitution in Phuket has not stopped the growth explosion of the island despite the fact that the destination is a world wide favorites for couples in their honey moon. Therefore your point with less prostitution does not hold a bit. It's pure "moral" rethoric and "right wing" rant.

People who want to visit Thailand without prostitution can do it by not going to the hot spots. These people who claim they don't want to go there because of prostitution are politically motivated and would always find another excuse not to go there.

In a previous post you explained that the girls in Nana now have to register with the police. The implication was that they have to go to the police and carry out this registration.  In fact, it is the bar owner who has to compilate and keep current a registration of the girls he employs in the bar at all times.  This has been in effect for a long time. He has to include on the form all of the info you described. It will be examined periodically by the police to ensure it is up to date. This provides a measure of protection for the customers if they have a problem with one of the girls. She is thus readily identifiable and it benefits the police by keeping out underage girls, other undesireables, and assists them in locating wanted criminals of whom there are many in the sleezy prostitution business.  

Your assertion that anyone who is against widespread prostitution in Thailand is politically motivated, right wing, and ranting is insulting to all of the good people in this world who are not whoremongers. And they remain the vast majority.

Likewise when you say that people can  avoid the "hotspots" and thus not be exposed to this sleezy business is nonsense. It is impossible to walk down Sukhumvit or Silom, as only two examples, without being exposed to it.

It must be difficult to attempt to defend the indefensible.

Cheers.

[wolf5370]

MekhongKurt,

sorry friend I think you missed the point of what I was saying - try rereading it - I was not 'dissing' the US cops (Its not my place as I'm not American and a Thai forum is not the place), it was simply an attempt at a parallel. I was talking about the past not present. I was/am not interested in the US corruption, or how widespread. It existed and to a lesser extent exists, but that is neither here-nor-there.

The point simply was that the king-pins fall when they loose their foundations - i.e. the lower ranks.

Try to calm down a bit eh? Jai yen.

Your verbose, completely off point, post was based on you nit picking a single word from the whole of my post.

I am also not sure why you need to tell the world of your qualifications and ability to speak English - was anyone asking or doubting your abilities?

I could have just as easily picked Soho during the 60's or any number of other first world examples of police clean-ups, but thought more people could relate to the American story thanks to Hollywood. To deny it existed is your perogative, but don't flame others for not being so blinkered.

Of course we all know there is no corruption in America - ask Presedent Gore (er I mean Bush - sorry get confused, I though the one with most votes won?)

[LPCustom69]

I personally feel that Thailand would be better off without the "sex - only" tourists. However, if there is too much of a crackdown on farang based businesses or interests, they will stay away in droves. No one wants to put up with a lot of BS while on vacation, they'll just go somewhere else. Don't get me wrong, I always have enjoyed my time in LOS, but a lot of people have no interest in coming here. My gut feeling is that when they stop coming, they won't return. Also, in reference to the girls registering with police, could it be that this is to keep them from getting a visa at some point in the future?

:cool:

[mrentoul]

This board is pulling some terrific writers. People who can pull together an argument, and set it out convincingly and fairly.

Two members I have noticed in recent days: Dexlowe, and now Alberta.

No one likes a grammar/spelling pedant, but if there's two things that put me off posts almost straight away, it's poor spelling and grammar.

Most people can't write, it's a sad fact. But we do have some members who stand out from the crowd, and are a pleasure to read.

[WISteve]

MekhongKurt,

 You were on point with your comment and glad you made it.  Cheap shots without substance shouldn't be tolerated.  

 Tourism is the largest industry in Thailand following agriculture: " Before the Jakarta bomb, Thailand was expecting its important tourist industry to recover to the point that only 10 percent fewer foreigners would take holidays here in 2003 than last year.

That, the state tourism promotion agency reckoned, would still mean tourist revenues would fall to 290 billion baht ($6.98 billion) this year from 323 billion baht, or about six percent of gross domestic product, in 2002."

http://www.thaivisa.com/index.php?514&back...514&tt_news=486

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/th.html

 

 Are there social and health negatives with prostitution?  Certainly.  Do the majority of Isaan parents and families particularly care where the money is coming from?  Not likely.

"prostitution provides one of the few ways out. Despite the very large number of women in Bangkok engaging in prostitution in its various forms, conservatively estimated at 300,000 (Phongpaichit: 1981: 14-15), this occupation still offers to most women an income considerably greater than anything they could hope to earn in another line of work."

 For all the moralizing made in this thread, most of the Thais actually involved in the sex trade (and their families) could care less what you thing of their behavior.

"Prostitution existed in Thailand long before the country became a popular destination of sex-tourism. Tourism, however, had a crucial impact on the trade. Not only did the number of girls engaging in prostitution grow considerably, but the nature of the occupation changed with the emergence of the new clientele"

 I can't find the link at the moment, but I've read good research on the fact that 80-90% of the prostitutes in Thailand service a local clientele.  It's just that the Thai are much more careful about it because they LIVE HERE!  They frankly don't want the spouse/significant other to find out about their daliances because it could end very badly for them.  The tourists on Suk Av/Beach Rd aren't residents and conduct themselves in a more open and obvious manner.  They are also on holiday and spend substantially more on their "vices" then the locals.  They are coming from countries where average monthly incomes far exceed the 8-10K baht that the local economy pays.

 Whether the moralists wish to recognize it or not, the sex tourist is an important part of the Thai economy.  Regulate it, tax it and improve the healthcare of the ladies involved.  They deserve that.  But unless you are ready to provide the dollars from your pocket to pay the vast array of people directly and indirectly employed my the industry you had best keep your hands out of the Thais pockets.

--WISteve

[Alberta]

This board is pulling some terrific writers. People who can pull together an argument, and set it out convincingly and fairly.

Two members I have noticed in recent days: Dexlowe, and now Alberta.

No one likes a grammar/spelling pedant, but if there's two things that put me off posts almost straight away, it's poor spelling and grammar.

Most people can't write, it's a sad fact. But we do have some members who stand out from the crowd, and are a pleasure to read.

Thank you for your flattering words. I expected a tirade of abuse. Take it from me it’s  tongue in cheek!.

Back to this thread: Of course this prostitution business is not good and it breeds a lot of other undesirable activities. For example, it’s not always easy to spot all of the hustlers, con artists, racketeers, whoremasters, pimps, thieves, and other assorted villains (like me) who hang around red light districts such as Nana, Cowboy, Pat Pong, Pattaya, Patong, etc. but be assured we are all there with morals that would make an alley cat squirm and Thailand would no doubt be better off without us.

[molarman]

The problem is not prostitution but the type of tourist that prostitution attracts,take a walk down Sukhumvit Rd. and see for yourself.

There is an overabundance of largely Western males who display no respect to their hosts (loud behaviour,unbelievably tasteless dress sense in a city centre,some of the worst haircuts on the planet,drunkeness,choice of company) during the day.It gets worse at night but then there are fewer Thais around.

Subtle and low key it is not.

Falang hookers add more sleaze to the already toxic brew.

What country in the world wants these sort of people visiting.

When did you last see a Thai man walking around arm in arm with a prostitute,drooling over her like a retard.

The Thais hate this bringing out into the open of what should be kept low key. Would you walk around in the capitol cities of your countries dressed like that ? With an obvious prostitute on your arm ? I think not. So why do it here?

I spend a lot of time in Thailand with my wife and her family, the family comprises of three generations ,ages from 14 to 70.

and we live on the Sukhumvit Rd.The question they ask me most is how can these men behave in public like that,and not be ashamed, are all falangs like that, there is no criticism of the prostitutes, its accepted here if its low key. My answer is that the falangs that they see are not typical , (my wife who lives with me in England when we are there has nothing but praise for Western values) and that the falangs that we are talking about are for the most part from the bottom of the falang barrel and have no idea how to behave with respect in a different culture, that they are unaware of Thai sensibilities.

The behaviour of these tourists is a great affront to the Thais,and I believe that the government would be well advised to impose restrictions if the tourists in question cannot see for themselves how ridiculous and offensive they look in the eyes of their hosts.Money earned from tourism does not come into it. The Thais are pretty adaptable people and would find other ways to replace the lost income.

So, gentlemen, some subtlety in your behaviour please and a decent pair of trousers wouldnt harm your cause either.

[WISteve]

Molarman,

 when was the last time you attended a football game on the continent?

 "loud behaviour,unbelievably tasteless dress sense in a city centre,some of the worst haircuts on the planet,drunkeness,choice of company"  

  Yup, that about sums it up!

--WISteve

[molarman]

Point taken WISteve,but dont you just want those away fans out of town a.s.a.p.?

[WISteve]

Molarman,

 "dont you just want those away fans out of town a.s.a.p.? ".

 Well, if they are burning cars and smashing windows most certainly.  But if that is not the case and they bring employment to literally thousands of Thais, well......?

 A couple preliminaries in case you hadn't already suspected.  I know my way around the upper Suk (oft times called the Farang Ghetto) and it wasn't gained delivering pizza.  I also completely agree with you that many Bangkok Thai and Farang expats do not approve of the public displays you will likely see on any given day or night.  But I would be willing to bet most of these outspoken individuals do not rely upon tourism for their livelihood.  

 But I think the disapproval you hear from the Thai does not stem from what is taking place there.  It is the PUBLIC display of this activity which they take issue with.  I suspect that the Buddhist search for moderation has something to do with this disapproval, but don't wish to offend anyone with my clumsy efforts to understand their motives.

 I think the disapproval expressed by many non-Thai residents to the antics you find on Suk Av is based on their transplanted moral judgements.  They disapprove of any of these activities, public or otherwise.  I think you may have referenced friends or acquaintances who live in the area?  Based on our Western standards we do not approve, period.

 If I might digress a bit, I can remember my first visit to Bangkok.  I arrived on a late Friday night flight and arrived at my hotel near midnight.  I honestly thought it must be Mardi Gras, or New Years or SOMETHING!!  I had traveled on that first trip innocently for business purposes and found what I thought was Sodom!  But believe it or not, some of those folks aren't Goths set on burning down the town.  Some of us have degrees and professional careers.  And while admittedly the editors of GQ won't be on the next plane to do a photo layout of the fashion sense found on the stroll, I'm just not sure how we are going to inspire fashion sense in these folks.  What do we do, initiate a dress code?  Not allow the balding and slightly plump tourist to walk within a specified distance of the bar girl he is just cut a deal with?

  I honestly understand your concerns and heartily support licensing, regulation and expanded healthcare for the ladies in the trade.  But try not to lose sight of the market dynamics taking place and the truly harsh economic effects of trying to elliminate the industry.  Many of the ladies and families behind them were below the poverty level for this third world nation.  Few of us can appreciate the profound poverty many of them are escaping.  You'll never wipe out the trade. All you will do by driving it underground is subject these ladies to the harsher treatment many of their less fortunate co-workers endure in the less visible Thai market.  If you want to see "bad", check out a Thai brothel sometime!  

 Not sure I will ever convince you of anything or visa-versa, but we all need to understand we can't always impose our Western ideals upon an Eastern culture.

Have a good day,

WISteve

[molarman]

WIsteve,

The disapproval I hear from Thais is almost 100% about the public and in your face displays that one sees on Sukhumvit and elsewhere. I have never heard any adverse criticism of prostitution from a Thai. My in-laws do gain from the tourist trade in that they run a "ma and pa" corner shop and rent rooms (not s.t.!) to bar girls and these girls are in and out of the shop all day long regaling us all with tales of their latest adventures and how easy/difficult (usually too easy) it was getting money out of last nights customers, but the Thais (at least the ones that I know) would  love to see it all a little more low key and discreet. They worry about the effect on their young children of constant exposure to it all, about how normal it has become, and how powerless they are to do anything about it.

Perhaps, like most of us , they are scared of the changes in society and the erosion of the values they were brought up to believe. I know change(progress) cannot be stopped, but as visitors to a foriegn land, whether long stay or short stay, I believe we should be mindful of the local mores and not push our luck and kill the golden goose.Otherwise the Thai government certainly will try and then it will all be pushed underground.

[TizMe]

The Thais are pretty adaptable people and would find other ways to replace the lost income.

I don't believe this one at all. You are talking about replacing the income from the second largest income generator in the country.

If the Thais were truely adaptable then there would not be 12.5% of the population living below the poverty line. World Fact book

[Butterfly]

In a previous post you explained that the girls in Nana now have to register with the police. The implication was that they have to go to the police and carry out this registration.  In fact, it is the bar owner who has to compilate and keep current a registration of the girls he employs in the bar at all times.  This has been in effect for a long time. He has to include on the form all of the info you described. It will be examined periodically by the police to ensure it is up to date. This provides a measure of protection for the customers if they have a problem with one of the girls. She is thus readily identifiable and it benefits the police by keeping out underage girls, other undesireables, and assists them in locating wanted criminals of whom there are many in the sleezy prostitution business.  

Your assertion that anyone who is against widespread prostitution in Thailand is politically motivated, right wing, and ranting is insulting to all of the good people in this world who are not whoremongers. And they remain the vast majority.

Likewise when you say that people can  avoid the "hotspots" and thus not be exposed to this sleezy business is nonsense. It is impossible to walk down Sukhumvit or Silom, as only two examples, without being exposed to it.

It must be difficult to attempt to defend the indefensible.

Cheers.

Re: Police Registration

I think you got it wrong. What I am talking about are new procedure not the old regular one that nobody respected. This NEW procedure requires all "sex workers" to be registered with the police DIRECTLY, not with the bar owners. Do you think the police will trust bar owners for doing valid registration ? no and that's why they are changing the rules because it didn't work. Go take a look at the bars and see by yourself how many ladies have left because of this. They will have to go "freelancer" now. Not a good thing.

Re: Political motivation

Well sorry to hurt you here but the "moralists" usally have hidden political agenda and are very good at trying to hide it. It does not mean what they say or what you say is "wrong", it just means that they say their things out of "moral" interests from a book and I find this wrong. These moral judgements are the cause of far more "evils" in this world than vice like prostitution. If you don't like what you see, don't try to change the people around you, but adapt or leave. Your "moral" judgement is only your "opinion" not the Gospels for the world to listen to.

Re: Hot Spots

Please, don't try to fool anyone here. Have you ever visited Bangkok ? how may streets are "red lights" in a city of 20 miles ? about 3 or 4. Is that all over the place ? what about gay bars and gay streets ? should we remove them too because you are "offended" by the morality of their behaviors ? again this is pure prejudice even though I can understand what you are trying to say (I am not promoting prostitution either). Nana and Cowboy are only a small spot you can definitely avoid if you don't want to go there. In Siam Center, they are no "Red Light" district and this is where the majority of tourists go. Sukumvit is 100 km long and you are telling me that you can't avoid Nana and Cowboy when you are on that road ? you are obviously not serious unless of course you are obsessed with "prostitution" in which case you can't avoid it in your own little mind and therefore can only see it everywhere.

[Butterfly]

The Thais are pretty adaptable people and would find other ways to replace the lost income.

I don't believe this one at all. You are talking about replacing the income from the second largest income generator in the country.

If the Thais were truely adaptable then there would not be 12.5% of the population living below the poverty line. World Fact book

It would be impossible. To make things worse, the "multiplier" effect on all industries will be a disaster. But I guess people wouldn't see this until it happens and it's too late.