Ten Days Until The End Of The World

[Dave the Dude]

The guys here on UK TV said this morning that it was the first test and the contraption will be just 'ticking over.' Further tests will be undertaken(Pun) at full power over the coming years(assuming we are going to have 'coming years')

This reminds me of that bloke in 'Up Pompeii' screaming about the 'Ides of March'

Dave

[AmeriThai]

......is there time to make another cup of coffee - or will I be able to enjoy many as we slip along the accretion disk for a while before our atoms are torn apart and mashed together.

Surely a black hole is a sphere - but just looks like a hole?

You probably wouldn't be able to enjoy your cup of coffee because long before you reached the event horizon, you, your coffee, as well as the cup, would all be smashed to bits by other matter and vaporized into a burst of radiant energy. Although, if the black hole was located in an area where there is no gas or solid matter it can capture, and you were the only at the extreme edge of the gravity well distorting space-time, that cup of coffee might seem to last a long time as time itself would slow down. If you were far enough out from the hole, you might slingshot away from it just like space probes use the gravity of planets to gain speed. If not, then you'd be destined to be like an insect that gets too close to a UV bug zapper.

A black hole isn't exactly a sphere, although it acts like one because it pulls in from all directions by an infinate singularity point. It's an extreme effect of gravitational force that's defined by whatever surrounds it, just like a hole in the ground doesn't have a shape but is defined by the soil that surrounds it. So wondering what shape a black hole is would be like wondering what shape gravity is. But that's just talking about massive black holes.

Mini black holes that are thought might be created by the LHC are different. These things would be so small and disappear almost instantly that they wouldn't be able to "gobble up" anything. It would only be detectable by the even and uniform trails left behind quarks. Virtually everything from the collision of lead atoms would be blown away from a center point. These trails would probably resemble a spherical pattern, the only thing left behind indicating the brief existence of a mini black hole. I'm not sure it would even be fair to call it a black hole, but more like a simulation of a black hole. And if it is a black hole, it would be too small, too weak and too brief to attract anything.

The whole point of the LHC is like a microscope that can hopefully "see" what would otherwise be unseeable. The mini black holes are only one offshoot experiment of the LHC. Detecting additional dimensions, and new unknown particles are other possible offshoots. One main objective of the LHC is to hopefully detect the Higgs Boson particle. If it turns out that the LHC is unable to produce any or few results that prove or disprove various theories, then it's not likely any additional funding for it will be provided.

We can all breathe easy and have another cup of coffee, or party to celebrate that we won't be stretched out like an infinately thin noodle any time soon.

[Kerryd]

The test was a success (as far as what they were trying to do).

They were able to send small packets of protons around the entire loop at low velocities, in each direction.

No "collisions" were scheduled, and the beams were travelling much slower than they will when the real testing begins.

I just wonder what they will do with the thing if they run all their tests, and don't discover anything ? It doesn't appear that the biggest machine on earth is useful for much of anything else except scrap metal.

(or perhaps it can be used to bombard certain elements with concentrated streams of protons, to create a P Bomb, in a similar fashion to the way in which weapons grade uranium is made. Surely someone, somewhere, is trying to figure out a way to weaponize this thing. If it can shoot protons around a circle at 99.9% of the speed of light, what would happen if it were configured to fire a beam of protons at a distant object ?)

[phaethon]

I just wonder what they will do with the thing if they run all their tests, and don't discover anything ? It doesn't appear that the biggest machine on earth is useful for much of anything else except scrap metal.

In science there is no such thing as a bad result. You form a theory, compose a hypothesis ( a yes/no question ideally), design an experiment to test it and then abandon, adjust or develop the theory depending on whether the hypothesis is proven or not. Either way knowledge moves forward a little. festina lente

[bkkjames]

I just wonder what they will do with the thing if they run all their tests, and don't discover anything ? It doesn't appear that the biggest machine on earth is useful for much of anything else except scrap metal.

In science there is no such thing as a bad result. You form a theory, compose a hypothesis ( a yes/no question ideally), design an experiment to test it and then abandon, adjust or develop the theory depending on whether the hypothesis is proven or not. Either way knowledge moves forward a little. festina lente

and...those big budgets keep rolling in.

Kinda like have a job as a weatherman, wrong 50% of the time but still get a paycheque.

[Koo82]

If they had tested anticlockwise, we could have all died yesterday.

[Maestro]

Google has a special logo today, perhaps already since yesterday, to draw attention to the Large Hadron Collider:

--

Maestro

[Denim]

Great...I just finished a 10 day bender and I'm still here. So now it looks like I'm o.k . to start another bender until they start smashing things together. Yeeee ha....any excuse will do......mind you...my wallet looked like a black hole last night ??

[AmeriThai]

I just wonder what they will do with the thing if they run all their tests, and don't discover anything ? It doesn't appear that the biggest machine on earth is useful for much of anything else except scrap metal.

(or perhaps it can be used to bombard certain elements with concentrated streams of protons, to create a P Bomb, in a similar fashion to the way in which weapons grade uranium is made. Surely someone, somewhere, is trying to figure out a way to weaponize this thing. If it can shoot protons around a circle at 99.9% of the speed of light, what would happen if it were configured to fire a beam of protons at a distant object ?)

If it doesn't discover anything, no one will continue funding it. It could be turned into something to generate an income to reduce the financial loss. Some kind of gigantic underground storage facility to secretly hold aliens and captured UFOs? The world's largest museum? An underground amusement park? A subterranean hotel? Use it as a tourist attraction to visit the 7th dimension?

It'd be kind of hard to turn it into a weapon. It wouldn't do much except make particles travel around the circle. Gigantic magnets are used to keep the particles from straying out of line, otherwise they'd just fly off and disappear in all sorts of directions.

[phaethon]

If they had tested anticlockwise, we could have all died yesterday.

They did, we didn't.

If space-time is disrupted we could have all died tomorrow, but we will have to wait to find out.

From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/bigbang/updates.shtml

This may seem a bit premature but Lyn Evans has already been asked now the LHC appears to be working what happens next. He replied: "It's too early to say. We' ll be waiting until we have results then we can discuss whether we need another machine".

Also:

After the minor controversy about David Kings remarks on Monday morning about the value of CERN, we note that CERN costs quite literally peanuts. UK taxpayers spend £80 million per year at CERN, whilst in 2006 (the last year for which we could find figures) we spent £120 million on peanuts.

[Maestro]

Hackers claim there’s a black hole in the atom smashers’ computer network

Hackers have broken into one of the computer networks of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC).

A group calling itself the Greek Security Team left a rogue webpage describing the technicians responsible for computer security at the giant atom smasher as “schoolkids” — but reassuring scientists that they did not want to disrupt the experiment.

...

The Times - September 13, 2008

Continued here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/s...icle4744329.ece

[aZOA9z]

The closest black hole is 1,600 light years from earth

Not If they creat one here on earth, and they seem to be doing just that.

Doug.

Philippines.

[kmart]

Watch the Hardon (sp?) Collider live! here

[FBN]

I would have been long gone as well but then I met this cute Thai girl...

Famous last words.....

[Cuban]

I don't know if many people are still reading this thread, but the whole idea of creating particals not seen since the big bang (if there was one) is a bit wonky - assuming the original conditions of universe creation included lack of gravity field and lack of space-time. Bit difficult to engineer those factors out of a experimental enviroment.

Still no excuse for enjoying atomic level fireworks, bang ! ....or rather little bang!

[Maestro]

Electrical fault halts "Big Bang" machine

The Large Hadron Collider (LHC), the world's most powerful particle accelerator, was temporarily shut down earlier this week.

Scientists at the European Centre for Particle Physics (Cern) in Geneva said a failure in the power transformer had affected the facility's refrigeration plant, which meant that protons could no longer be beamed round the facility.

The protons have to be cooled to a temperature of minus 271.3 Celsius to enable them to travel round the accelerator faster than 99.99 per cent of the speed of light.

Cern said on Thursday that the electrical fault had been fixed, and the refrigeration chamber was being cooled down again. They were unable to say exactly when beaming would restart.

The purpose of the LHC experiment, the most expensive in history, is to recreate the conditions one trillionth of a second after the Big Bang and thus help scientists understand the formation of the universe.

The 27-kilometre machine spans the border between Switzerland and France. Before it was launched on September 10, rumours abounded that the experiment would cause the world to end.

swissinfo.ch 2008-09-18 3.56 PM

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news_digest/El...52000&ty=nd

[AmeriThai]

Thank you for the link Maestro. Here's another article about the glitch. The transformer has been replaced and the ring has been cooled down again to near 0 degrees on the Kelvin scale (-459.67 degrees Fahrenheit ).

"This is arguably the largest machine built by humankind..."

"Now that the transformer has been replaced and the equipment rechilled, scientists expect to try soon to tighten the clockwise beam and prepare experiments in coming weeks..."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26780393/

[Jimjim]

As I said before, the collisions that will potentially create black holes won't take place for a few weeks. September 10 is just when they switch it on, so to speak. They will be sending things around, but no collisions until about October. So, you all have at least 20 days to live.

My understanding is that the collisions that could potentially create mini black holes probably won't happen until next year, maybe Feb or so, when they run the system at or near maximum power. The plan is to gradually increase power over time.

As far as even just small collisions go, they said they would start in a few weeks.

[AmeriThai]

As I said before, the collisions that will potentially create black holes won't take place for a few weeks. September 10 is just when they switch it on, so to speak. They will be sending things around, but no collisions until about October. So, you all have at least 20 days to live.

My understanding is that the collisions that could potentially create mini black holes probably won't happen until next year, maybe Feb or so, when they run the system at or near maximum power. The plan is to gradually increase power over time.

As far as even just small collisions go, they said they would start in a few weeks.

Yes, but probably no mini black holes for a while. I believe in the test runs already done (before the glitch) of shooting particles clockwise, then anti-clockwise, the particles were traveling at near the speed of light. Too bad that wouldn't work for long international flights.

[Cuban]

Some kind of gigantic underground storage facility to secretly hold aliens and captured UFOs?

The whole point of the LHC is like a microscope that can hopefully "see" what would otherwise be unseeable. The mini black holes are only one offshoot experiment of the LHC. Detecting additional dimensions, and new unknown particles are other possible offshoots. One main objective of the LHC is to hopefully detect the Higgs Boson particle. If it turns out that the LHC is unable to produce any or few results that prove or disprove various theories, then it's not likely any additional funding for it will be provided.

I would suggest too public to fly in the captured (abandoned) UFOs.

My black hole comment, if I made one earlier, was more a reaction to the idea that a black hole is some Disney magic carpet ride to the other side of the universe crossing with worm-hole ideas, all very Star Trek and Stargate.

Beware the Hawking Radiation from all those melting micro black holes, dangerous stuff it really screwed up that guy in the wheel-chair.

"Detecting additional dimensions, and new unknown particles...." my point on this matter is simply that you can not make a jelly underwater. The extra dimensions (11 I believe understand) that existed (?) at the big bang (?) were in the absence of gravity and in the absence of space-time. The fact that HLC is stuck to the side of 6×10²⁴ kg of planet makes gravity a factor in the experiment. And Podkletnov only offers [] a 2-3% reduction there.

Although things going round in circles has had a fasination for man since before the wheel, most reported UFOs are of the spinning verity. Arrows were more accurate when spun hence the development of the rifling in a gun and we come back to Podkletnov and his spinning super conductors. The most pratical application is the frisbee.

Surely someone, somewhere, is trying to figure out a way to weaponize this thing.

For sure, I haven't tried to search the answer to this question - however where did the money come from to build and run the thing? I wonder what the enviromental impact was/is, of building it - then running it, 'cos it don't run on solar cells and windmills.

There has be research into partical beam weapons in the past, I would expect this facility would be a good place to continue that research. Use of a laser to create a path for the partical beam to follow was I thought the best bet. And the choice of site to develop a less indiscriminant weapon seems wise, it was the Swiss that perfected the bullet that injured enough to stop a person fighting but not fragment inside killing a person, and we all know that dead enemy solider is less of a drain on their resources than one that's just leaking blood.

At the end of the day technology has always been used for porn in one or another, this is no different and shows the sub-atomic cross dressing roots of the whole thing.

"Large Hadron Collider" -> anagram -> "Old Len, A Hardcore Girl"

Edited September 19, 2008 by Cuban

[Kerryd]

I'm not s scientist (obviously), but what would happen to an object (a tank, or air plane, or concrete structure for example), if you were able to fire a concentrated stream of protons at it, at nearly the speed of light ?

Speed of light (in a vacuum) is approx 186,250 miles per second. Lets round that off to 185,000. So, an object that is 10 miles above sea level (52,000 and a bit feet), could be hit by a pulsed beams of protons about 18,500 times per second.

What effect would that have on say, the electronics, metal or fuel of an aircraft or missile ?

Using this LHC technology, what else can they stream around the coil at near light speeds ? Could they use electrons or neutrons instead ? What would concentrated stream of those elements do when fired at near light speeds ?

Somehow, I think that the possible creation of mini-black holes from the LHC is the least of our (future) worries.

[AmeriThai]

New Leak Causes Another Setback

"The collider was briefly brought back into operation on Thursday, but sensors detected a large helium leak from the device's cooling system during testing on Friday. That forced another shutdown, and an investigation of the problem was expected to continue through the weekend."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26780393

[JohnBanPrang]

Modern witchcraft???

Who said the world was round?

"Maemot?"

Is my spelling wrong?

Many see progress as unuptainable,yet we all benifit from it every day.

Personaly I think the "collider" will bring more good than bad.

"Man can make black holes ?????

"Com'on"

[opebo]

I wish.

[JohnBanPrang]

Only small "black holes"

As said before.!!!!!!!!

[opebo]

Only small "black holes"

Funnily enough, those are why I'm in Thailand.

[Cuban]

...if you were able to fire a concentrated stream of protons at it, at nearly the speed of light ?

Probably very little, it might undergo a little localised warming, even high powered radar only cooks pidgeons at close quarters. A coherent beam of particles is difficult to maintain in the atmosphere full of bits. Directed lightning strikes stand a better chance of working but the laser beam and providing the right conduction path in the air might give the game away that your surpise attack were in progress.

I think it's all about cross dressing.

[AmeriThai]

I'm not s scientist (obviously), but what would happen to an object (a tank, or air plane, or concrete structure for example), if you were able to fire a concentrated stream of protons at it, at nearly the speed of light ?

Speed of light (in a vacuum) is approx 186,250 miles per second. Lets round that off to 185,000. So, an object that is 10 miles above sea level (52,000 and a bit feet), could be hit by a pulsed beams of protons about 18,500 times per second.

What effect would that have on say, the electronics, metal or fuel of an aircraft or missile ?

Using this LHC technology, what else can they stream around the coil at near light speeds ? Could they use electrons or neutrons instead ? What would concentrated stream of those elements do when fired at near light speeds ?

Somehow, I think that the possible creation of mini-black holes from the LHC is the least of our (future) worries.

Who ya gonna call? Isn't that what the Ghostbusters used to trap those ectoplasmic slimers? Don't cross the streams!

I'm no physicist either, but I still find the subject interesting. The problem is that the particles are mindbogglingly small. Protons would have to be separated atoms. As a weapon, it wouldn't be very practical when you think of the size of cyclotrons and the amount of power it takes just to run one. Colliders like LHC, require extreme alignment and controlled conditions in order to smash atoms. Even then, it can be hit and miss because there's a lot of space a specific atom has to deal with in order to make a direct hit with another. Such a weapon would not only have to be extremely large but also extremely maneuverable. A single particle wouldn't do any damage but would just pass harmlessly through a tank, plane or building. It's also worth noting that protons make up a sizable portion of the cosmic particles that constantly bombards the Earth without harm.

The idea of a proton weapon still makes for entertaining sci-fi movies. But that's not to say some experiments at LHC and other colliders aren't being looked at by the military for potential applications. I think most spin-offs would be mostly peaceful applications, such as communications, medicine, and energy.

Edited September 20, 2008 by AmeriThai

[Kerryd]

OK. Something else that has been whizzing through my brain lately.

Car A, travelling east at 50 mph (80 km/hr) has a head on collision with Car B, travelling west at 50 mph (80 km/hr).

The force of the collision in that case would be 100 mph (160 km/hr).

Soooo. A beam of protons travelling clockwise at 99.9% of the speed of light hits a beam of protons travelling counter-clockwise at 99.9 % of the speed of light.

Would that not mean that the force of the collision would be 199.8% of the speed of light (or, 99.8% faster than the speed of light) ?

Come to think of it, that could explain the "Missing Mass" theory. If a considerable amount of mass is apparently missing from the universe ("the dark matter"), could it be that, as a result of the Big Bang, that missing mass is actually streaming away from us at almost twice the speed of light (or even faster), and that is why we can not see, or account for it ?

Hmmmmm, way too much time on my hands here in Afghanistan (and no mini-LHCs to play with) !

[Goshawk]

that missing mass is actually streaming away from us at almost twice the speed of light (or even faster), and that is why we can not see, or account for it ?

ah.. the hypothetical Tachyon. (swift one)

faster than light travel suggests the possibility of Time Travel