State Of Emergency Announced In Bangkok

[Pierrot]

Great timing ! Who can now believe the E C is independent ?

Who can still believe the people behind the unrest have Thailand best interest at heart when everything they do is pushing Thailand every day closer to civil war ?

Are you saying that as soon a court case, even when PPP is one of the parties in-charge, goes against PPP or their MPs the courts are not independant...but presumably if the courts always dismissed all cases against PPP you would declare them independant and good?

You have a funny viewpoint on life.

I spent most probably too much time reading this forum.

When "people" decision go my way, they are fair and honnest.

When they don't ... then what can you expect from a gang of crooks !

The E C is as partial as any other institution in Thailand.

And I wish I had a funny viewpoint on life, for the time being it's turning nightmarish...

[hammered]

If PAD could guarantee to people that no one would ever know how they voted, the vote buying would be a moot point. It would be great if PAD volunteered to help insure clean and free elections

You think the current regime would ever let PAD volunteer in moritoring the elections? This gotta be a freaking joke of a suggestion.

Yes, but even more ludicrous is the suggestion that PAD:

1. Is big enough as a group to even be at the thousands of voting booths around the country, and

2. Even WANTS upcountry votes to be heard. That's their whole point, they want the Bangkok elites to rule, and the foolish uneducated peasants to do what they tell them to.

And finally to ThNiner: It's ALREADY the case that nobody can know how any individual voted. The only things they can know is THAT an individual voted at all (though not his choice), and they know how the total of a village/district votes, so by that they can conclude how effective their campaign / handouts were. But it's not the case that elections aren't free and fair in the sense that individual votes aren't anonymous, because they are.

People have to get it through their skulls that people DO vote their minds, never mind what happened during campaigns, parties, hand-outs, etc. The hand-outs only serve to make people feel good about a candidate 'who cares', then they go on and vote for that candidate. They don't have to because nobody will ever find out if they don't, but they DO!

I think if PAD were trying to help instead of tear down they could be much bigger. But, I fear I must agree with you. I don't think PAD wants Isan to have any voting rights and I do think that Isan would vote for the populist party even if there was no vote buying. I also believe that is why older democracies have a larger middle class. The populist parties get elected by legally buying the support of the poorest areas with promises of infrastructure and welfare policies. The only legal way for another party to wrestle a majority away from the PPP is to out bid them in Isan. Not too good for the wealth holders I fear.

As written in the nation yesterday, the issue is that the up country folk have actually worked out that their votes count for something.

The Peoples Alliance for Democracy want to do away with democracy because it is working a little too well for the poor guy.

Could someone neutral, thoughtful and experienced explain something to me. How do they know who is vote buying? I mean how do they know it is not someone pretending to represent someone else? If for example, party A knew they could not win, what is there to prevent them from impersonating party B and buying votes for party B to get them dissolved? Don't flame me. I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am just curious.

The ballots are usually counted at local level and so if targets are met a later tranche is paid out, so vote buying works to some extent although people will argue over how effective it is. Academics have whole theories on what level of effect it has.

It is theoretcially possible that a set could be done but as it mostly involves people who are known this is quite unlikely to happen. It is more likely with new laws that opponents will try to get some evidence on it happening. That is how Yongyuth went down. Vote buying is a lot harder than it used to be with everyone watching but high tech has also given new opportunites.

By the way you could be oopening a can of worms by asking this as there is a big split on how effective vote buying is based on which horse you back. Backing neither is a good place to be.

[Tony Clifton]

DAAD disperses

The Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship dispersed its rally at Sanam Luanga at 10:40 am.

Its leaders thanked the demonstrators and announced the cease of demonstration by the group, saying the government was now in control after the state of emergency was announced.

DAAD demonstrators were handed out foods and many left Sanam Luang on buses.

The Nation

They did the job Thaksins side ask them to do, got paid and went home. Now we are left with a State of Emergency, where the Government can attack the PAD at will, shut down TV stations and so on. Wonder what will happen from here on in?

Wrong!

One DAAD zombie ventured too far out and was captured by PAD guards.

He was questioned, searched searched for weapons.

They pulled out his DAAD payslip, 500+700 baht. 1200 baht (all on camera) it costs to hire murderers, how prices have dropped. Policemen and hitmen will be furious at the competition these days!

He admitted he came from Issan, had 60 baht in his pocket and they have not been been paid yet.

Many of them were also told they were brought to the funeral of a famous singer who died recently.

[britmaveric]

And the EC and judiciary isn't corrupt???

[hammered]

Samak Sundaravej Political career

(source Wikipedia)

In 1968 Samak joined the opposition Democrat Party. Well connected to the military, Samak became head of its renegade right-wing faction. In the 1976 general election, he defeated Kukrit Pramoj and was made Deputy Interior Minister in the cabinet of Seni Pramoj. He quickly became prominent for arresting several left-wing activists.

In late August 1976, Seni sent Samak to Singapore for the purpose of persuading Field Marshal Thanom Kittikachorn not to return to Thailand. Paul M. Handley contends, however, that Samak was a close confidant of Queen Sirikit and had been sent by King Bhumibol to guarantee royal support for the exiled Field Marshal.This charge is apparently supported by Samak's claim during a cabinet meeting that the King had endorsed Thanom's return.

Samak was removed from his ministerial position, and in reaction organised an anti-government demonstration calling for the removal of three young liberal Democrat ministers who he branded as being "communists". Although in 2008 interviews with CNN and al-Jazeera Samak denied involvement in the 6 October 1976 massacre that left officially at least 46 dead, Samak insists only 1 person was left dead. Accounts from witnesses, documents and published reports clearly identify Samak as chief operator of the "Armoured Car" radio programme, an ultra-right wing broadcast that constantly expounded anti-communist and pro-right propaganda. Samak used this programme to stir up hatred against Thammasat University students, and intentionally disobeyed the Prime Minister's orders at the time to "stop creating divisiveness." In defending the return of 1973-ousted Field Marshal Praphat over the radio, Samak told listeners that students demonstrating against the dictator's return were committing suicide.

Following the coup of October 6, 1976, Samak became Minister of the Interior in the administration of Tanin Kraivixien, a royalist anti-Communist with a reputation for honesty. Samak immediately launched a campaign which saw hundreds of supposed leftists, many of whom were writers and other intellectuals, arrested.

In 1979 Samak founded the right-wing Prachakorn Thai Party. In the 1979 General Elections it defeated the incumbent Democrat Party by winning 29 of the 39 seats in Bangkok. In the 1983 General Elections it extended its base to 36 seats, and did not suffer too greatly from the Democrat surge in 1986.

In 1992, as Deputy Prime Minister in the Suchinda administration, Samak justified the military's brutal suppression of pro-democracy demonstrators by declaring that the government had the right to do so as long as the United States could send troops to kill people in other countries, a reference to the Gulf War which defeated Iraq led by Saddam Hussein taking place from 2 August 1990 to 28 February 1991. He remains unrepentant and continues to stand by his justification, stating that the military was merely trying to restore law and order after the pro-democracy demonstrators, which he branded as "troublemakers", had resorted to "mob rule".

1976 - 1992 - 2008 A 16-year cycle

[ThNiner]

If you look at the heads of the movement, they all have had some fallout with the former Prime Minister, many of which were his cronies until some unknown incident we'll never know about, many of them are hired out to the highest bidder, and have changed affiliations many times over the years.

Here's a good clue as to why Sondhi has such a hard-on for Thaksin.

"In 2004, state-owned Krung Thai Bank (KTB) shocked Thailand's financial world by reclassifying approximately Bt40 billion as problem loans. It was strongly rumored that M.R.W. Pridiyathorn Devakula, the Bank of Thailand governor, would fire KTB CEO Viroj Nualkhair if he did not voluntarily resign. Viroj Nualkhair was Sondhi's former financial advisor, having helped him IPO one of his first companies. As Krung Thai Bank CEO, Viroj had forgiven Sondhi's debts by THB 1.6 billion and arranged for further rounds of forgiveness. Using all of his media outlets, Sondhi furiously attacked Pridiyathorn and defended Viroj Nualkhair. However, Viroj was eventually forced to leave Krung Thai Bank. Sondhi's public criticism of Thaksin started to increase."

I guess when Thaksins appointed BOT governor kicked out the KTB man in Sondhi's pocket, effectively wiping out a chunk of his net worth, he got the knives out.

So it STILL all boils down to the unspeakably rich and powerful ON BOTH SIDES scrabbling to increase their riches and absolutely NOTHING to do with defense of democracy or anything remotely like it. Your so-called intellectual PAD and so-called ignorant Isaan are all one and the same; mere pawns for those in Bangkok ivory towers. When the army steps in and crushes these 'protesters' and 'supporters' alike underfoot, the 'old guard' will shake their heads, issue platitudes and later will come the pardons and very public waiing and photo-ops with appropriate sound-bites. All this while they check their overseas bank balances.

I support PAD's cause and am well aware that Sondhi is not exactly a clean guy. But all the crazy abuse of power by Thaksin and this current gov't has nothing to do with who Sondhi really is. Whatever wrong Sondhi did doesn't lessen the fact that TRT and PPP have been the most corrupt and vile governments Thailand has ever seen, and the court has ruled on this.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

i realise that as a farang it's a difficult place to comment from, but it does seem uniquely strange that people will support a proposed regime which advocates taking votes away from poor and lesser educated people while claiming to do it under a banner of pro-democracy.

Yes, and even stranger that Westerners on this forum advocate this!

[sjaak327]

Having seen the clash last night, it seemed to me, both side were ready for a fight. There is no such thing as an innocent party involved here.

I do believe that calling a state of emmergency is a bit over the top. I guess it will serve some means to an end.

Ever hear of self defense? What would you do, if you got attacked and shot at by a bunch of paid, drunk and stoned thugs? Would you just stand there and take it? Pad knew the thugs where coming and they prepared against the attack.

Of course, as normally when "the people" demonstrate, they have their own security force handy. The NBT raid was also done very peacefully. Make no mistake, the PAD are very well funded and organized, they are not your average people demonstrating.

[JoeInSurin]

Has it not still registered in some people that PPP has been convicted of VOTE BUYING??? Helloooooo?

The EC has voted to seek an order of the court. No one has been convicted yet. I think you are getting ahead of yourself. Hellooooooooo!!

The court has already ruled that TRT/PPP did commit electoral frauds, hence the TRT dissolution and the banning of its 111 executive members in 2006. Now its reincarnation has been recommended by both EC subcomitte and EC itself to be dissolved because of their vote buying. And you still can't connect the dots? Helloooooooooooooooo!

It's only matter of time before they will be formally convicted of the crime. Helllllllllllllllllllloooooooooooooo.

No the court ruled the TRT committed electoral fraud. There was no PPP then. I see you have changed your statement to "has been recommended" which is true. You originally state that PPP had been convicted which is not true.

[Spee]

America founded democracy but limited the vote to land owning males...

really?

you really think that?

what about the Greek ? never heard of them ?

America, like all democracies, is not perfect, but is without a doubt the best form of government going.

Separation of powers. Systems of checks and balances. Electoral college. Military leaders subordinate to civilian leaders. States' (provinces') rights. One would hope Thailand would adopt some or all of these principles.

Hopefully Thailand, like America, will learn from mistakes and continue to move forward the principles of a democratic monarchy. There is corruption through and through the opposing parties, but the democratic principles are more important than any individual or group.

All of this current discussion of people not being worthy of a vote and a majority central government by appointment is just plain wrong and people should oppose it. My fear from these current problems are that there will be more steps backward than there will be forward, with respect to the democratic movement, and that citizens will suffer because of it.

[NanLaew]

... that said, the UK has a prime minister who wasn't elected now, so go figure.

Splitting hairs now aren't we? The UK Labour government was a resounding repeat winner of elections. Just because his boss bottled it before the sh!t hit the fan does NOT mean Gordon Brown was unelected. You get what you vote for.

The TRT/PPP government was a resounding repeat winner of elections. Just because his boss bottled it before the sh!i hit the fan does not mean Samak was unelected. Sometimes you DON'T get who you vote for, THAT is democracy.

Go figure.

[picaro]

One bomb, one death, several people in hospital? When will Thais think about something else than filling their own pockets?

Why can't the "elected" man be in power? Is he worse than the other one? Is he the worst one ever? Is the country going that bad?

OR

Is it only PAD that wants to stirr things up and create a mess here? Thinking that Thaksin will leave? (Newsflash people, Thaksin is out of the country already).

Sorry Snowflake but Mr. T is still here using an assumed name. (SAMAK)

[ThNiner]

And the EC and judiciary isn't corrupt???

Why don't you just look the evidence broght against Yongyuth instead of making an empty and useless claim like this? Why can't we just look at the freaking evidence? The fact that Yongyuth has threatened the life of Kamnan who was the crucial witness in his case?

[jts-khorat]

A country gets the government it deserves. If the whole culture is accepting of corruption at every level, and contributes to it, no good crying when those kids that grew up with it get into power.

Good post. Hits the nail on the head.

Yes certainly does.

Rhetorically:

Yet, could this be possibly one of those times when people actually

are trying to overcome corruption in all it's facets?

Often mothers are early adopters of this line of anti curruption.

Could it possibly be that the preponderance of older women and mothers

at PAD rallies are there for exactly this reason, and could care less about

Sondhi's reasons for this, or the reasons of those behind them?

You surely make a valid point right there, but then equally important to ponder: why do those same grannies not ask Sondhi to pay the immense amount he buried as NPL. Why is he not questioned by his followers on his close relationship to Thaksin and the reasons for their falling-out?

Surely cleaning out corruption should start at the own doorstep first. At the moment you would only depose of one corrupt anti-democratic lawbreaker with the ones form the PAD. Your quote highlighted by me in bold is the real dangerous part of it, because it clearly shows how little the protesters thought this through.

[Maxi101]

America founded democracy but limited the vote to land owning males...

really?

you really think that?

what about the Greek ? never heard of them ?

America, like all democracies, is not perfect, but is without a doubt the best form of government going.

Separation of powers. Systems of checks and balances. Electoral college. Military leaders subordinate to civilian leaders. States' (provinces') rights. One would hope Thailand would adopt some or all of these principles.

Hopefully Thailand, like America, will learn from mistakes and continue to move forward the principles of a democratic monarchy. There is corruption through and through the opposing parties, but the democratic principles are more important than any individual or group.

All of this current discussion of people not being worthy of a vote and a majority central government by appointment is just plain wrong and people should oppose it. My fear from these current problems are that there will be more steps backward than there will be forward, with respect to the democratic movement, and that citizens will suffer because of it.

we know you are smart ... pls stay with the subject, its hurting my eye to read all that stuff...

[k1w1]

America, like all democracies, is not perfect, but is without a doubt the best form of government going.

So how do you explain executive order and the presidents power to veto anything he wants?

[Tony Clifton]

MODERATORS

Why was the PAD Lay Siege On Government House, NBT TV Station closed when PAD is still at Government House?

George explained it here in post 3,616 of the thread.

And a good call it was... 144 pages on any news thread is long past it's usefulness.

The number of pages has nothing to do with it, what s the difference with 2 topics of 77 pages each, 144 topics of one page each?

It's about continuity. if clashes occur with police at Govt. House, shouldn't it keep going in that closed topic?

Now we'll be discussing Govt. House related comments mixed with state of emergency comments. IMHO, of course.

[pumpuiman]

RIP to the man who was killed.

I'm saddened and discouraged at what seems a hopeless cause.

The PAD is wrong.

The DAAD is wrong.

Samak is wrong.

Sondhi is wrong.

A coup wont help.

an election will start it all over again.

"Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets."

[animatic]

Could someone please help me with a decent definition of democracy?

At the moment I have a small problem with some of the implications of democracy as I am currently reading them;

An EXTREME example...

"If 60% of the population vote in a government who decide to wipe out / kill the remaining 40% of the population then that is democratic, and the 40% have to complain about it in parliament or wait until the next election." (?)

Obviously that is ridiculously extreme, but who decides what is extreme and what is not?

Where and how does morality and ethics enter into the process?

I presume democracy is more than simply rule by the majority?

You asked, parse this as you will

de·moc·ra·cy Audio Help /dɪˈmɒkrəsi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-mok-ruh-see] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -cies.

1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.

3. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.

4. political or social equality; democratic spirit.

5. the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.

[Origin: 1525–35; < MF démocratie < LL démocratia < Gk démokratía popular government, equiv. to démo- demo- + -kratia -cracy]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.

democracy

To learn more about democracy visit Britannica.com

© 2008 Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This

de·moc·ra·cy Audio Help (dĭ-mŏk'rə-sē) Pronunciation Key

n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies

1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

2. A political or social unit that has such a government.

3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.

4. Majority rule.

5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

[French démocratie, from Late Latin dēmocratia, from Greek dēmokratiā : dēmos, people; see dā- in Indo-European roots + -kratiā, -cracy.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This

democracy

1574, from M.Fr. democratie, from M.L. democratia (13c.), from Gk. demokratia, from demos "common people," originally "district" (see demotic), + kratos "rule, strength" (see -cracy). Democratic for one of the two major U.S. political parties is 1829, though members of the Democratic-Republican (formerly Anti-Federal) party had been called Democrats since 1798; though colloquial abbrev. Demo dates to 1793.

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This

democracy

noun

1. the political orientation of those who favor government by the people or by their elected representatives

2. a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them

3. the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group [syn: majority rule]

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This

democracy [diˈmokrəsi] noun — plural deˈmocracies

(a country having) a form of government in which the people freely elect representatives to govern them

Example: Which is the world's largest democracy?; He believes in democracy.

Arabic: ديموقْراطِيَّه، حُكْم الشَّعْب

Chinese (Simplified): 民主

Chinese (Traditional): 民主

Czech: demokracie

Danish: demokrati

Dutch: democratie

Estonian: demokraatia

Finnish: demokratia

French: démocratie

German: die Demokratie

Greek: δημοκρατία

Hungarian: demokrácia

Icelandic: lÿðræði, lÿðræðisríki

Indonesian: demokrasi

Italian: democrazia

Japanese: 民主主義

Latvian: demokrātija, demokrātisms

Lithuanian: demokratija, demokratinė šalis

Norwegian: demokrati, folkestyre

Polish: demokracja

Portuguese (Brazil): democracia

Portuguese (Portugal): democracia

Romanian: democraţie

Russian: демократия

Slovak: demokracia

Slovenian: demokracija

Spanish: democracia

Swedish: demokrati

Turkish: demokrasi

See also: democrat, democratic, democratically

Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary, © 2000-2006 K Dictionaries Ltd.

American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition - Cite This Source - Share This

democracy

A system of government in which power is vested in the people, who rule either directly or through freely elected representatives.

Note: Democratic institutions, such as parliaments, may exist in a monarchy. Such constitutional monarchies as Britain, Canada, and Sweden are generally counted as democracies in practice.

[Chapter:] World Politics

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition

Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source - Share This

Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy

Pronunciation: di-'mä-kr&-sE

Function: noun

Inflected Form: plural -cies

1 a :government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectlythrough a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

2 : a political unit that has a democratic government—dem·o·crat·ic /"de-m&-'kra-tik/ adjective —dem·o·crat·i·cal·ly adverb

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This

Democracy

De*moc"ra*cy\, n.; pl. Democracies. [F. d['e]mocratie, fr. Gr. dhmokrati`a; dh^mos the people + kratei^n to be strong, to rule, kra`tos strength.]

1. Government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is retained and directly exercised by the people.

2. Government by popular representation; a form of government in which the supreme power is retained by the people, but is indirectly exercised through a system of representation and delegated authority periodically renewed; a constitutional representative government; a republic.

3. Collectively, the people, regarded as the source of government. --Milton.

4. The principles and policy of the Democratic party, so called. [u.S.]

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

[RadioCityMike]

i realise that as a farang it's a difficult place to comment from, but it does seem uniquely strange that people will support a proposed regime which advocates taking votes away from poor and lesser educated people while claiming to do it under a banner of pro-democracy.

Herein lies the old problem of unequal development, poor education, and massive income disparity. Until this is addressed by someone with some real political will, or massive upheaval from within, this scenario will play out again and again. Rinse, repeat.

Well the scene is pretty lacking in statesmen right now. There is virtually no such thing as political ideology in this country.

Hopefully, the RULE OF LAW will prevail. Dispanding the PPP is a start. This isn't because I hate or like the PPP, but what is going on right now is close to anarchy. I hope someone can have a quiet word in Sondhi's ear to tell him to get his mob to go home, or there is inevitably going to be a large confrontation in the next day or two.

Having a micrphone and 50,000 supporters doesn't give him the right to "demand" anything, and if anyone gives credence to his 70:30 idea, if 50,000 supporters seems like a lot, wait until 20,000,000 people get really angry with the system.

The standard procedure for protest groups world wide seems to be to push a country into anarchy and then insist on their proposals being enacted because the country is in anarchy. I think the country would be best served to not give in to the anarchists. Had the police been allowed to stand up to PAD and keep them out of the Government House, I think this could have been avoided.

[hammered]

... that said, the UK has a prime minister who wasn't elected now, so go figure.

Splitting hairs now aren't we? The UK Labour government was a resounding repeat winner of elections. Just because his boss bottled it before the sh!t hit the fan does NOT mean Gordon Brown was unelected. You get what you vote for.

The TRT/PPP government was a resounding repeat winner of elections. Just because his boss bottled it before the sh!i hit the fan does not mean Samak was unelected. Sometimes you DON'T get who you vote for, THAT is democracy.

Go figure.

Very true in parlaimentary systems any elected MP can become PM if decided on by a majority in their ruling party or in parlaiment (depends on system). It does mena a PM can be changed anytime during the course of a parliament, which does happen and may end up happening here.

[old wanderer]

And the EC and judiciary isn't corrupt???

Why would you ask a stupid question.....

Do you have any doubts that PPP bought votes......??? Is it against the law?

When I see a judge give back 2 million baht publicly, put the bearers in jail instantly, and ask for them to be brought back to court in 6 months when the contempt punishment is finished to be tired for corruption and possible 5 years in jail.

When I see a court sentence the puppet master Kunying Puchimon to 3 years in jail for trying to lie to the court, along with her secretary and brother-in-law.

When I see Thaskin forfeit 20 million baht in bail money because he know the game has changed and he will not bribe his way out of this situation...

Why should I think the EC or judiciary are corrupt.

[Tony Clifton]

JoeInSurin

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Is that guy still throwing questions at me?

[ThNiner]

... that said, the UK has a prime minister who wasn't elected now, so go figure.

Splitting hairs now aren't we? The UK Labour government was a resounding repeat winner of elections. Just because his boss bottled it before the sh!t hit the fan does NOT mean Gordon Brown was unelected. You get what you vote for.

The TRT/PPP government was a resounding repeat winner of elections. Just because his boss bottled it before the sh!i hit the fan does not mean Samak was unelected. Sometimes you DON'T get who you vote for, THAT is democracy.

Go figure.

I have to say it on here for the millionth time that TRT/PPP has been convicted of comitting electoral frauds and tampering with the democratic process in 2006 by the Supreme (or Constitutional) Court. And as a result, their former party, TTT, was dissolved and their 111 executive members have been banned from politics for five years.

So what's with continuing to justify TRT/PPP ruling legitimacy on here? Huh?

[StevieH]

Splitting hairs now aren't we? The UK Labour government was a resounding repeat winner of elections. Just because his boss bottled it before the sh!t hit the fan does NOT mean Gordon Brown was unelected. You get what you vote for.

The TRT/PPP government was a resounding repeat winner of elections. Just because his boss bottled it before the sh!i hit the fan does not mean Samak was unelected. Sometimes you DON'T get who you vote for, THAT is democracy.

Go figure.

it's not particularly relevant to this discussion i realise, but UK people voted for the labour party on the understanding that blair would be PM and lead it. nobody voted for brown to be leader of the country. yes, it's constitutional and therefore technically legal, doesn't make it morally right.

anyhow, FWIW i agree with you that PPP 'won' its elections, albeit maybe not in the most savoury of circumstances. but what PAD is attempting now is neither democratic nor progressive. it could set thailand back years.

Edited September 2, 2008 by StevieH

[Thai at Heart]

A country gets the government it deserves. If the whole culture is accepting of corruption at every level, and contributes to it, no good crying when those kids that grew up with it get into power.

Good post. Hits the nail on the head.

Yes certainly does.

Rhetorically:

Yet, could this be possibly one of those times when people actually

are trying to overcome corruption in all it's facets?

Often mothers are early adopters of this line of anti curruption.

Could it possibly be that the preponderance of older women and mothers

at PAD rallies are there for exactly this reason, and could care less about

Sondhi's reasons for this, or the reasons of those behind them?

You surely make a valid point right there, but then equally important to ponder: why do those same grannies not ask Sondhi to pay the immense amount he buried as NPL. Why is he not questioned by his followers on his close relationship to Thaksin and the reasons for their falling-out?

Surely cleaning out corruption should start at the own doorstep first. At the moment you would only depose of one corrupt anti-democratic lawbreaker with the ones form the PAD. Your quote highlighted by me in bold is the real dangerous part of it, because it clearly shows how little the protesters thought this through.

In my early years in Thailand, I found many situations which were confusing and intriguing. I thought it was the wonder of Asia and it's mystical culture.

One day the penny dropped however, and when all other explanation and reasoning cannot explain the situation, I simply put it down to money and power (face).

[Pierrot]

i realise that as a farang it's a difficult place to comment from, but it does seem uniquely strange that people will support a proposed regime which advocates taking votes away from poor and lesser educated people while claiming to do it under a banner of pro-democracy.

Herein lies the old problem of unequal development, poor education, and massive income disparity. Until this is addressed by someone with some real political will, or massive upheaval from within, this scenario will play out again and again. Rinse, repeat.

There is no will for that, at least at some level. Unequal development, poor education, and massive income disparity is what able a few minority to take advantage of the disadvantaged majority. And then some people come with this stupid concept of democracy. Best remark ever read on TV “…and theses uneducated people vote according to their own interest…” My good lord, how can one be so selfish !

"Someone with some real political will, or massive upheaval from within " ? Thaksin was the answer, he had to go ...

[harrry]

Will the short time bars in Pattaya be affected by this?

only if they involve more than 5 people

[robee]

If you look at the heads of the movement, they all have had some fallout with the former Prime Minister, many of which were his cronies until some unknown incident we'll never know about, many of them are hired out to the highest bidder, and have changed affiliations many times over the years.

Here's a good clue as to why Sondhi has such a hard-on for Thaksin.

"In 2004, state-owned Krung Thai Bank (KTB) shocked Thailand's financial world by reclassifying approximately Bt40 billion as problem loans. It was strongly rumored that M.R.W. Pridiyathorn Devakula, the Bank of Thailand governor, would fire KTB CEO Viroj Nualkhair if he did not voluntarily resign. Viroj Nualkhair was Sondhi's former financial advisor, having helped him IPO one of his first companies. As Krung Thai Bank CEO, Viroj had forgiven Sondhi's debts by THB 1.6 billion and arranged for further rounds of forgiveness. Using all of his media outlets, Sondhi furiously attacked Pridiyathorn and defended Viroj Nualkhair. However, Viroj was eventually forced to leave Krung Thai Bank. Sondhi's public criticism of Thaksin started to increase."

I guess when Thaksins appointed BOT governor kicked out the KTB man in Sondhi's pocket, effectively wiping out a chunk of his net worth, he got the knives out.

Not sure where this came from but makes things more clear as to who and why.

So it STILL all boils down to the unspeakably rich and powerful ON BOTH SIDES scrabbling to increase their riches and absolutely NOTHING to do with defense of democracy or anything remotely like it. Your so-called intellectual PAD and so-called ignorant Isaan are all one and the same; mere pawns for those in Bangkok ivory towers. When the army steps in and crushes these 'protesters' and 'supporters' alike underfoot, the 'old guard' will shake their heads, issue platitudes and later will come the pardons and very public waiing and photo-ops with appropriate sound-bites. All this while they check their overseas bank balances.

[eastwest]

Any one see any military presence?

It's only a matter of hours before a meaningful military presence permeates Bangkok. The first course of action will be the setting up of checkpoints at important intersections and governmental facilities. The police force, backed by riot-equipped soldiers, will then seal off the area in the vicinity of Government House, in effect prohibiting additional people from joining the protest. What happens after that as the force begins to push in is up to PAD and its leadership. Let us hope that excessive violence can be avoided.