State Of Emergency Announced In Bangkok

[Thai at Heart]

If PAD could guarantee to people that no one would ever know how they voted, the vote buying would be a moot point. It would be great if PAD volunteered to help insure clean and free elections

You think the current regime would ever let PAD volunteer in moritoring the elections? This gotta be a freaking joke of a suggestion.

Yes, but even more ludicrous is the suggestion that PAD:

1. Is big enough as a group to even be at the thousands of voting booths around the country, and

2. Even WANTS upcountry votes to be heard. That's their whole point, they want the Bangkok elites to rule, and the foolish uneducated peasants to do what they tell them to.

And finally to ThNiner: It's ALREADY the case that nobody can know how any individual voted. The only things they can know is THAT an individual voted at all (though not his choice), and they know how the total of a village/district votes, so by that they can conclude how effective their campaign / handouts were. But it's not the case that elections aren't free and fair in the sense that individual votes aren't anonymous, because they are.

People have to get it through their skulls that people DO vote their minds, never mind what happened during campaigns, parties, hand-outs, etc. The hand-outs only serve to make people feel good about a candidate 'who cares', then they go on and vote for that candidate. They don't have to because nobody will ever find out if they don't, but they DO!

I think if PAD were trying to help instead of tear down they could be much bigger. But, I fear I must agree with you. I don't think PAD wants Isan to have any voting rights and I do think that Isan would vote for the populist party even if there was no vote buying. I also believe that is why older democracies have a larger middle class. The populist parties get elected by legally buying the support of the poorest areas with promises of infrastructure and welfare policies. The only legal way for another party to wrestle a majority away from the PPP is to out bid them in Isan. Not too good for the wealth holders I fear.

As written in the nation yesterday, the issue is that the up country folk have actually worked out that their votes count for something.

The Peoples Alliance for Democracy want to do away with democracy because it is working a little too well for the poor guy.

[ratcatcher]

I am not able to reach the Bangkokpost website in the last hour. anyone else has a problem with it? I am in Bangkok with a True connection.

Waerth

I have a True connection and I was able to see the page.

One question I have is how safe is it in Bangkok for farangs right now? For example I need to go to Siam Square later, should I postpone this trip until things have either calmed down or have been resolved?

I would think that it's quite safe in Bangkok right now, as long as you avoid the areas where the protesters are gathering. I don't believe the Thai people are about to start attacking foreigners unless they are stupid enough to go down to Government House or Sanam Luang and try to get involved.

Just go on about your business and don't worry.

[ThNiner]

Has it not still registered in some people that PPP has been convicted of VOTE BUYING??? Helloooooo?

[hammered]

PPP didn't even have the majority of votes after all their vote buying efforts, yet time and time again they keep saying that they have the mandate to do whatever they want. Funny. laugh.gif

If PPP is so popular, why do they need to buy votes? Anyway they'll soon have the opportunity to buy some more now that the EC has recommended PPP be dissolved. Lucky Thaksin sold his football club yesterday to free up some funds, eh?

The EC decision was reportedly unanimous. They havent had a decision where they all agreed for ages, so it is surprising.

[nisei23]

I am not able to reach the Bangkokpost website in the last hour. anyone else has a problem with it? I am in Bangkok with a True connection.

Waerth

I have a True connection and I was able to see the page.

One question I have is how safe is it in Bangkok for farangs right now? For example I need to go to Siam Square later, should I postpone this trip until things have either calmed down or have been resolved?

I would think that it's quite safe in Bangkok right now, as long as you avoid the areas where the protesters are gathering. I don't believe the Thai people are about to start attacking foreigners unless they are stupid enough to go down to Government House or Sanam Luang and try to get involved.

Just go on about your business and don't worry.

Thanks

[wxpwzrd]

MODERATORS

Why was the PAD Lay Siege On Government House, NBT TV Station closed when PAD is still at Government House?

George explained it here in post 3,616 of the thread.

And a good call it was... 144 pages on any news thread is long past it's usefulness.

[OlRedEyes]

i realise that as a farang it's a difficult place to comment from, but it does seem uniquely strange that people will support a proposed regime which advocates taking votes away from poor and lesser educated people while claiming to do it under a banner of pro-democracy.

This is a strange place. Self-delusion in order to gain your own advantage is the norm. And not only amongst it's citizens.

[Crushdepth]

Great timing ! Who can now believe the E C is independant ?

The date for the decision has been scheduled for some time now (actually, it was delayed beyond the original time) and if anything it is likely that the protesters arranged their demonstration to lead up to this date. And since the PPP secretary or whatever has been convicted of electoral fraud, the EC really had no choice but to recommend dissolution. That's the law.

[k1w1]

And finally to ThNiner: It's ALREADY the case that nobody can know how any individual voted. The only things they can know is THAT an individual voted at all (though not his choice), and they know how the total of a village/district votes, so by that they can conclude how effective their campaign / handouts were. But it's not the case that elections aren't free and fair in the sense that individual votes aren't anonymous, because they are.

There are many reports of voters taking photos of their ballot on their phone/camera and using that as proof they voted to get payment.

IN northern areas they also organised to have voting booths placed in clearly visible locations while PPP members and local Police officers stood by and "assisted" voters with their presence in the voting area.

There is no question northern Thais support PPP. But the numbers would certainly be different if the PPP hadn't used money/debt to leverage votes.

Also don't forget that nearly all of PPP's seats came from North of BKK and many of them by a very slim margin which doesn't show in the overall seat count. If you look closely at the real numbers you can see a very definitive line drawn between north and south. Clearly the country is as divided as the USA.

What the PAD want is a transparent govt where corrupt politicians are not able to enrich themselves and their interests. This is a lofty goal and should be held with highest regard. Every nation in the world deserves this so all power to the protestors for continuing to keep the pressure on. This is more important than 1 vote per person which has clearly failed in many ways to prevent politicians from taking bites of the pie. This is why the PAD have suggested an alternative to the current system in Thailand. 70:30 is a silly number maybe 30:70 would be more appropriate for Thailand. hel_l why not 51:49 like the rules for foreign investors?

[StevieH]

This is a strange place. Self-delusion in order to gain your own advantage is the norm. And not only amongst it's citizens.

true enough. though i've never felt so farang as this at the minute. i love thailand the country and its people and feel privileged to reside here, but the political instability continues to surprise me. that said, the UK has a prime minister who wasn't elected now, so go figure.

[emelie]

One bomb, one death, several people in hospital? When will Thais think about something else than filling their own pockets? Why can't the "elected" man be in power? Is he worse than the other one? Is he the worst one ever? Is the country going that bad? OR Is it only PAD that wants to stirr things up and create a mess here? Thinking that Thaksin will leave? (Newsflash people, Thaksin is out of the country already).

dear snowflake, a government which simply paid more than their opponents is not democratically elected. bad governments need to be ousted. if no fair elections are possible and if there is no functioning opposition in parliament (too weak), this has to be done by peaceful protest and civil disobedience. toxin is not gone! he has just taken the money he used to please the manchester city hooligans and obviously shifted it to please some hooligans in bkk (pure coincidence?). the pad is no alternative to democracy, but for democracy to have a chance there seems to be no alternative to pad. they were giving samak enough time to show any results for thailand, but he has clearly shown that he is mainly interested in his puppetmaster. then they were protesting peacefully, until someone unleashed his dogs and started the killing. that's why a clique of corrupt politicians would be the worst in this millenium.

[TAWP]

EC recommends dissolution of PPP

(BangkokPost.com) - The Election Commission (EC) announced Tuesday its decision to recommend the dissolution of the People Power party (PPP) for complicity in vote-buying by a party executive member Yongyuth Tiyapairat in the Dec 23 general election.

EC secretary-general Sutthipol Thaweechaikarn said that the vote was unanimous.

----------------------

Democracy = voting + good governance, you can't have one without the other. Let's see the Samak Apologists try and explain this one :-)

Here's some speculation for you: I think Thaksin sold his football club yesterday so that he could fund an upcoming electoral campaign.

Great timing ! Who can now believe the E C is independent ?

Who can still believe the people behind the unrest have Thailand best interest at heart when everything they do is pushing Thailand every day closer to civil war ?

Are you saying that as soon a court case, even when PPP is one of the parties in-charge, goes against PPP or their MPs the courts are not independant...but presumably if the courts always dismissed all cases against PPP you would declare them independant and good?

You have a funny viewpoint on life.

[ThNiner]

Anyone who's crying foul that EC is not independent, why don't you just go ahead and look at the evidence against Yongyuth instead of keep claiming that the ruling was unfair and premeditated?

[Shokdee]

I suggest people use the term de-mock-racy (or even de-mockery) to distinguish rigged elections, whether through vote buying (Thailand), opposition intimidation (Russia), incorrect counting (Kenya), or just plain ignoring the results (Zimbabwe) from "true" democracy (if such a thing even exists).

My comment is about the BBC. Today one reporter was really hyping the situation up, making it seem like total chaotic violence, including saying "At least one person was killed". This implies that maybe others have been killed too, which is creating a false impression as only one has person has died. RIP. No others are in critical condition in hospital. It's not like a plane crash or collapsed building where death tolls rises.

Also, I notice ALL the BBC reporters use exactly the same words when talking about the reasons for the protests; "The PAD accuse the Prime Minister of being a front for former prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who was ousted in a coup and is currently in exile". Every reporter, whether in the studio or in Thailand, says the same thing, they never mention any of the other reasons the PAD is protesting: vote buying, corruption, attempts to change the constitution, nepotism, etc.

I first noticed this situation on the BBC when Ireland voted on the Lisbon treaty. Every single reporter, in the studio or on the ground, always said exactly the same thing, "The Lisbon treaty is meant to reduce bureaucracy and streamline decision making".

It is so obvious that for some situations a script is written and all BBC staff have to read off the same page. The BBC is nothing but a PR firm for the powers that be.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Shokdee

[RadioCityMike]

If PAD could guarantee to people that no one would ever know how they voted, the vote buying would be a moot point. It would be great if PAD volunteered to help insure clean and free elections

You think the current regime would ever let PAD volunteer in moritoring the elections? This gotta be a freaking joke of a suggestion.

Yes, but even more ludicrous is the suggestion that PAD:

1. Is big enough as a group to even be at the thousands of voting booths around the country, and

2. Even WANTS upcountry votes to be heard. That's their whole point, they want the Bangkok elites to rule, and the foolish uneducated peasants to do what they tell them to.

And finally to ThNiner: It's ALREADY the case that nobody can know how any individual voted. The only things they can know is THAT an individual voted at all (though not his choice), and they know how the total of a village/district votes, so by that they can conclude how effective their campaign / handouts were. But it's not the case that elections aren't free and fair in the sense that individual votes aren't anonymous, because they are.

People have to get it through their skulls that people DO vote their minds, never mind what happened during campaigns, parties, hand-outs, etc. The hand-outs only serve to make people feel good about a candidate 'who cares', then they go on and vote for that candidate. They don't have to because nobody will ever find out if they don't, but they DO!

I think if PAD were trying to help instead of tear down they could be much bigger. But, I fear I must agree with you. I don't think PAD wants Isan to have any voting rights and I do think that Isan would vote for the populist party even if there was no vote buying. I also believe that is why older democracies have a larger middle class. The populist parties get elected by legally buying the support of the poorest areas with promises of infrastructure and welfare policies. The only legal way for another party to wrestle a majority away from the PPP is to out bid them in Isan. Not too good for the wealth holders I fear.

As written in the nation yesterday, the issue is that the up country folk have actually worked out that their votes count for something.

The Peoples Alliance for Democracy want to do away with democracy because it is working a little too well for the poor guy.

Could someone neutral, thoughtful and experienced explain something to me. How do they know who is vote buying? I mean how do they know it is not someone pretending to represent someone else? If for example, party A knew they could not win, what is there to prevent them from impersonating party B and buying votes for party B to get them dissolved? Don't flame me. I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am just curious.

[lannaman]

The Guardian Newspaper, England had an article on the troubles here. I thought the following gave a clear summary of the PAD's case:

The alliance claims the government is corrupt and too close to the former prime minister, Thaksin Shinawatra, who was ousted in a 2006 military coup and recently fled to Britain to escape corruption charges. The same group organized the massive anti-Thaksin protests in 2006 that helped spark a bloodless coup. Protesters say that western-style democracy gives too much weight to Thailand's rural majority, who protesters say are susceptible to vote buying that breeds corruption. They want most lawmakers to be appointed rather than elected.

[ThNiner]

And finally to ThNiner: It's ALREADY the case that nobody can know how any individual voted. The only things they can know is THAT an individual voted at all (though not his choice), and they know how the total of a village/district votes, so by that they can conclude how effective their campaign / handouts were. But it's not the case that elections aren't free and fair in the sense that individual votes aren't anonymous, because they are.

There are many reports of voters taking photos of their ballot on their phone/camera and using that as proof they voted to get payment.

IN northern areas they also organised to have voting booths placed in clearly visible locations while PPP members and local Police officers stood by and "assisted" voters with their presence in the voting area.

There is no question northern Thais support PPP. But the numbers would certainly be different if the PPP hadn't used money/debt to leverage votes.

Also don't forget that nearly all of PPP's seats came from North of BKK and many of them by a very slim margin which doesn't show in the overall seat count. If you look closely at the real numbers you can see a very definitive line drawn between north and south. Clearly the country is as divided as the USA.

What the PAD want is a transparent govt where corrupt politicians are not able to enrich themselves and their interests. This is a lofty goal and should be held with highest regard. Every nation in the world deserves this so all power to the protestors for continuing to keep the pressure on. This is more important than 1 vote per person which has clearly failed in many ways to prevent politicians from taking bites of the pie. This is why the PAD have suggested an alternative to the current system in Thailand. 70:30 is a silly number maybe 30:70 would be more appropriate for Thailand. hel_l why not 51:49 like the rules for foreign investors?

[sjaak327]

Having seen the clash last night, it seemed to me, both side were ready for a fight. There is no such thing as an innocent party involved here.

I do believe that calling a state of emmergency is a bit over the top. I guess it will serve some means to an end.

[Soontorn]

Samak Sundaravej Political career

(source Wikipedia)

In 1968 Samak joined the opposition Democrat Party. Well connected to the military, Samak became head of its renegade right-wing faction. In the 1976 general election, he defeated Kukrit Pramoj and was made Deputy Interior Minister in the cabinet of Seni Pramoj. He quickly became prominent for arresting several left-wing activists.

In late August 1976, Seni sent Samak to Singapore for the purpose of persuading Field Marshal Thanom Kittikachorn not to return to Thailand. Paul M. Handley contends, however, that Samak was a close confidant of Queen Sirikit and had been sent by King Bhumibol to guarantee royal support for the exiled Field Marshal.This charge is apparently supported by Samak's claim during a cabinet meeting that the King had endorsed Thanom's return.

Samak was removed from his ministerial position, and in reaction organised an anti-government demonstration calling for the removal of three young liberal Democrat ministers who he branded as being "communists". Although in 2008 interviews with CNN and al-Jazeera Samak denied involvement in the 6 October 1976 massacre that left officially at least 46 dead, Samak insists only 1 person was left dead. Accounts from witnesses, documents and published reports clearly identify Samak as chief operator of the "Armoured Car" radio programme, an ultra-right wing broadcast that constantly expounded anti-communist and pro-right propaganda. Samak used this programme to stir up hatred against Thammasat University students, and intentionally disobeyed the Prime Minister's orders at the time to "stop creating divisiveness." In defending the return of 1973-ousted Field Marshal Praphat over the radio, Samak told listeners that students demonstrating against the dictator's return were committing suicide.

Following the coup of October 6, 1976, Samak became Minister of the Interior in the administration of Tanin Kraivixien, a royalist anti-Communist with a reputation for honesty. Samak immediately launched a campaign which saw hundreds of supposed leftists, many of whom were writers and other intellectuals, arrested.

In 1979 Samak founded the right-wing Prachakorn Thai Party. In the 1979 General Elections it defeated the incumbent Democrat Party by winning 29 of the 39 seats in Bangkok. In the 1983 General Elections it extended its base to 36 seats, and did not suffer too greatly from the Democrat surge in 1986.

In 1992, as Deputy Prime Minister in the Suchinda administration, Samak justified the military's brutal suppression of pro-democracy demonstrators by declaring that the government had the right to do so as long as the United States could send troops to kill people in other countries, a reference to the Gulf War which defeated Iraq led by Saddam Hussein taking place from 2 August 1990 to 28 February 1991. He remains unrepentant and continues to stand by his justification, stating that the military was merely trying to restore law and order after the pro-democracy demonstrators, which he branded as "troublemakers", had resorted to "mob rule".

[kurtgruen]

Great timing ! Who can now believe the E C is independant ?

The date for the decision has been scheduled for some time now (actually, it was delayed beyond the original time) and if anything it is likely that the protesters arranged their demonstration to lead up to this date. And since the PPP secretary or whatever has been convicted of electoral fraud, the EC really had no choice but to recommend dissolution. That's the law.

Thanks for stating some facts Crushdepth. It's refreshing :-)

[kmart]

i realise that as a farang it's a difficult place to comment from, but it does seem uniquely strange that people will support a proposed regime which advocates taking votes away from poor and lesser educated people while claiming to do it under a banner of pro-democracy.

Herein lies the old problem of unequal development, poor education, and massive income disparity. Until this is addressed by someone with some real political will, or massive upheaval from within, this scenario will play out again and again. Rinse, repeat.

[Pundi64]

Let's hope the army restores order peacefully - hopefully the PAD will go home unless they want bloodshed?

I think this is what they are hoping for, split blood, so now maybe they get their wish. I hope the streets of BKK, do not run red.

[JoeInSurin]

Has it not still registered in some people that PPP has been convicted of VOTE BUYING??? Helloooooo?

The EC has voted to seek an order of the court. No one has been convicted yet. I think you are getting ahead of yourself. Hellooooooooo!!

[Splatter]

Could someone please help me with a decent definition of democracy?

At the moment I have a small problem with some of the implications of democracy as I am currently reading them;

An EXTREME example...

"If 60% of the population vote in a government who decide to wipe out / kill the remaining 40% of the population then that is democratic, and the 40% have to complain about it in parliament or wait until the next election." (?)

Obviously that is ridiculously extreme, but who decides what is extreme and what is not?

Where and how does morality and ethics enter into the process?

I presume democracy is more than simply rule by the majority?

[kurtgruen]

Having seen the clash last night, it seemed to me, both side were ready for a fight. There is no such thing as an innocent party involved here.

I do believe that calling a state of emmergency is a bit over the top. I guess it will serve some means to an end.

Ever hear of self defense? What would you do, if you got attacked and shot at by a bunch of paid, drunk and stoned thugs? Would you just stand there and take it? Pad knew the thugs where coming and they prepared against the attack.

[StevieH]

I suggest people use the term de-mock-racy (or even de-mockery) to distinguish rigged elections, whether through vote buying (Thailand), opposition intimidation (Russia), incorrect counting (Kenya), or just plain ignoring the results (Zimbabwe) from "true" democracy (if such a thing even exists).

My comment is about the BBC. Today one reporter was really hyping the situation up, making it seem like total chaotic violence, including saying "At least one person was killed". This implies that maybe others have been killed too, which is creating a false impression as clearly only one has person has died. No others are in critical condition in hospital. It's not like a plane crash or collapsed building where death tolls rises.

Also, I notice ALL the BBC reporters always use exactly the same words when talking about the reasons for the protests; "The PAD accuse the Prime Minister of being a front for ousted prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who was ousted in a coup and is currently in exile". Every reporter, whether in the studio or in Thailand, says the same thing, they never mention any of the other reasons the PAD is protesting: vote buying, corruption, attempts to change the constitution, nepotism, etc.

I first noticed this situation on the BBC when Ireland voted on the Lisbon treaty. Every single reporter, in the studio or on the ground, always said exactly the same thing, "The Lisbon treaty is meant to reduce bureaucracy and streamline decision making".

It is so obvious that for some situations a script is written and everyone has to read off the same page. The BBC is nothing but a PR firm for the powers that be.

sorry shokdee, have to disagree with you here. the bbc is pretty much as impartial a news reporter as it gets, they have no right or left political allegiance (despite what certain right wing commentators would have you believe) and if they have a standard editorial line for reporting on the situation in bangkok it has to be attributable to a number of appropriate, informed, on-the-ground sources.

know what you mean about the lisbon treaty, but that was based on what the EU line was and contained the key words 'was meant'. semantics i know, but important in distinguishing reporting from PR.

[NanLaew]

If you look at the heads of the movement, they all have had some fallout with the former Prime Minister, many of which were his cronies until some unknown incident we'll never know about, many of them are hired out to the highest bidder, and have changed affiliations many times over the years.

Here's a good clue as to why Sondhi has such a hard-on for Thaksin.

"In 2004, state-owned Krung Thai Bank (KTB) shocked Thailand's financial world by reclassifying approximately Bt40 billion as problem loans. It was strongly rumored that M.R.W. Pridiyathorn Devakula, the Bank of Thailand governor, would fire KTB CEO Viroj Nualkhair if he did not voluntarily resign. Viroj Nualkhair was Sondhi's former financial advisor, having helped him IPO one of his first companies. As Krung Thai Bank CEO, Viroj had forgiven Sondhi's debts by THB 1.6 billion and arranged for further rounds of forgiveness. Using all of his media outlets, Sondhi furiously attacked Pridiyathorn and defended Viroj Nualkhair. However, Viroj was eventually forced to leave Krung Thai Bank. Sondhi's public criticism of Thaksin started to increase."

I guess when Thaksins appointed BOT governor kicked out the KTB man in Sondhi's pocket, effectively wiping out a chunk of his net worth, he got the knives out.

So it STILL all boils down to the unspeakably rich and powerful ON BOTH SIDES scrabbling to increase their riches and absolutely NOTHING to do with defense of democracy or anything remotely like it. Your so-called intellectual PAD and so-called ignorant Isaan are all one and the same; mere pawns for those in Bangkok ivory towers. When the army steps in and crushes these 'protesters' and 'supporters' alike underfoot, the 'old guard' will shake their heads, issue platitudes and later will come the pardons and very public waiing and photo-ops with appropriate sound-bites. All this while they check their overseas bank balances.

[Thai at Heart]

i realise that as a farang it's a difficult place to comment from, but it does seem uniquely strange that people will support a proposed regime which advocates taking votes away from poor and lesser educated people while claiming to do it under a banner of pro-democracy.

Herein lies the old problem of unequal development, poor education, and massive income disparity. Until this is addressed by someone with some real political will, or massive upheaval from within, this scenario will play out again and again. Rinse, repeat.

Well the scene is pretty lacking in statesmen right now. There is virtually no such thing as political ideology in this country.

Hopefully, the RULE OF LAW will prevail. Dispanding the PPP is a start. This isn't because I hate or like the PPP, but what is going on right now is close to anarchy. I hope someone can have a quiet word in Sondhi's ear to tell him to get his mob to go home, or there is inevitably going to be a large confrontation in the next day or two.

Having a micrphone and 50,000 supporters doesn't give him the right to "demand" anything, and if anyone gives credence to his 70:30 idea, if 50,000 supporters seems like a lot, wait until 20,000,000 people get really angry with the system.

[ThNiner]

Has it not still registered in some people that PPP has been convicted of VOTE BUYING??? Helloooooo?

The EC has voted to seek an order of the court. No one has been convicted yet. I think you are getting ahead of yourself. Hellooooooooo!!

The court has already ruled that TRT/PPP did commit electoral frauds, hence the TRT dissolution and the banning of its 111 executive members in 2006. Now its reincarnation has been recommended by both EC subcomitte and EC itself to be dissolved because of their vote buying. And you still can't connect the dots? Helloooooooooooooooo!

It's only matter of time before they will be formally convicted of the crime. Helllllllllllllllllllloooooooooooooo.

[robee]

Let hope this comes to a rest soon. Here in Rachada things are quite so far , but us Expats should be aware of things around them.

don't want to wait for the news to tell us what we know. Be aware is on point. Any one see any military presence?