Special Case Of A Self Employed Web Worker

[TheFox]

Hi all,

I'm 30-ish, am born an currently live in France.

After several visits to Thailand, I'm starting to contemplate the possibility of living there.

I have started learning Thai, and I see this as a long term project (I want to have my plans laid out before making a move).

My problem is as follows :

- I am self employed, or to be more precise I currently have a company incorporated in France with 0 employees and me as owner (In France there is no such thing as a Freelancer in the work law)

- My business is conducted 100% through the internet. I can be wherever I like, as long as I have access to electricity and a decent internet connection (middle range ADSL and up). It is profitable enough to live off it in France, would be that much more so if I could do it while paying the cost of living from Thailand.

- I have some complementary income from real estate I own and rent (a little under $1000 a month) which could be a worst case backup plan if somehow I can't work for a while

- keeping good relations with my clients would require me to fly back to France 2-6 times a year to attend meetings, conferences and trade shows

Given this special situation, I wonder if I could someone obtain a permanent or long term Visa in Thailand somehow ... since I'm not an employee, I guess work visa isn't an option. Would having a subcompany incorporated in Thailand, made of only me (and maybe a couple assistants given how cheap labor is there) allow me to stay there indefinitely ? (I'm aware of the hoops I would have to jump through regarding the 51% ownership by a Thai thing).

The idea would be to invest as little money as possible, and rent whatever can be, so as to be able to return to France quickly if things go wrong somehow.

Can anyone here tell me if that project has a chance to work ? What problems I might face ? What solutions exist ?

[Martian]

Here's the answer you're looking for:

Go to Thailand on an education visa (Ed visa) by enrolling into one of the Thai language schools (learn Thai) sponsoring this board. You can stay up to 5 years with visa runs and renewals (guess Walen says no runs required). You can continue your internet business while in Thailand although technically, you should have a WP...just keep your mouth shut and do your business.

I believe one of the schools offer a year-long Thai language program AND visa help for around 28,000 Baht. This same school has a schedule that you can attend all your required classes in one day (about 4 hours) and then you have the rest of the week to do whatever. Look at the top of this page...Walen and Pro are advertised. Walen seems to be a good choice for those who like bigger class size whereas Pro seems to cater to a smaller class size setting.

This is what I would do if I were in your shoes.

Good luck!

Martian

Edited September 29, 2008 by Martian

[Jingthing]

If you are away too long and can't maintain your Thai school hours, you will lose your ED visa.

Have you considered Cambodia? What you are proposing would be MUCH easier there, and you could stay there as long as you like on business visas you just pay for, no questions asked.

You could also do this in the Philippines, even a young man like you can get a retirement visa there in exchange for an investment than can be redeemed when you leave.

Edited September 29, 2008 by Jingthing

[Martian]

By scheduling your Thai language class hours on 1 day, you can take a 6 day trip back to France to have your meetings. One day to travel to France, Four days for meetings and one day to return to Thailand. Additionally I am sure there is an "allowance" for missed classes although I don't know what that might be. People do get sick, have deaths in the family etc so I am sure there are some kind of provisions for missed classes.

Contact one or both of the schools above to ask them about your situation. You want to come for school but have concerns about having to return to France occasionally and don't want to jeopardize your ED visa. They might be very helpful. Perhaps they will allow you to "double" your class load one or two weeks and take the following two weeks off.

If this doesn't work then consider Jimthing's suggestion of Cambodia or the Philippines.

But if your set on Thailand, I bet the language school will accommodate you to keep you "legal" with regard to your ED visa while having to return to France occasionally. It is in their interest to keep you as a long-time student.

Mac from Walen posts here regularly so maybe he can comment or you can Private Message him about this.

Regards,

Martian

[ubonjoe]

You say you would need to go to france for business a few times a year

In that case you can stay on tourist visas. I think the consulate in france would give you at least a two entry tourist visa. If you do that each entry would give you a about 90 days with an extension on the 60 tourist entry.

Doing what you do if you keep a real low profile you would be okay.

The other option of setting up a comapny is possible but can cost a lot to set up and maintain plus the cost of employes.

Edited September 30, 2008 by ubonjoe

[Jimjim]

Oh my, this again? Look around, this has been covered many times with many different arguments and information.

Edit: Here's the latest one you should read -- http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Initial-Post...or-t211612.html

Edited September 30, 2008 by Jimjim

[Cuban]

Consider what you will be doing for housing, if you are renting many houses do not have a dedicated landline phone connection. You would need a WP to have it installed in your name. Not the end of the world but some thing to consider if your work depends on it.

[stacker10]

You can sure get a 1year visa in France and after that go for the ED visa.I been doing same as you,internet for a couple of years,keep it to your self

and you dont have any problem.Forgett Cambodja,its a shithole,was there 6 month never again but Philippines is great,moving there now.No bullshit

with visa,you are welcome there not like Thailand,and everybody speak english.If you want to make more internet business Philippines is the place.

[astral]

At your age it will not be easy.

The ED visa for learning Thai is an option, but you have to stick at it.

The other possibility is for you to apply for a Non Imm O visa (multi-entry)

before you leave France. I have never seen any reports of where to apply in France

but a honorary consulate is usually best, rather than the Embassy in Paris.

This will allow you to stay for almost 15 months, doing a border run every 90 days.

After 15 months you will need to go back to Europe for a new visa, as they

are not issued in the Asia region.

If you cannot get the visa in France, then pop across to the UK.

[OlRedEyes]

First of all, you making a living via the net is not a special case by a mile.

Taking into account the turmoil in the financial markets, and the serious knock-on effect that is likely to have across most business sectors in all countries, you, like everyone else, are at great risk of losing a great chunk of your business soon. I would hold off on any move for a few months to assess the situation before making a move based on your earnings from this business. There are no safety nets here. Not a good time for such a decision IMHO, gotta let things shake out a bit before making any decisions.

[TheFox]

Thanks a lot to everyone who took some time to answer ... that is a boatload of useful information.

The education visa thing sounds interesting, since I would be taking Thai classes anyway to better my ability to communicate.

The thing is, I'd want to grow and have a team there eventually, so I guess I'd have to go with the cost of incorporating there eventually. But the education visa can be a great way to start things slow and see how I like it.

So trying to sum it up, I could start with the longest tourist visa I can negotiate with a consulate in France, then go on the education visa for a while, then do the company thing once I need to employ people. Or can different types of visas not be chained in that way ?

[ubonjoe]

Starting out on a tourist visa is a good idea.

It will give you time to check out the schools offering the visa arrangement or you might find it better for you to just take classes without the visa option. A tourist visa can be changed to a ED.

If you plan on going back to France on a regular basis it would probably be better in that respect also.

As far setting up a business that can be initiated on.a tourist visa and then change to a non-b. Also an ED can be changed to a non-b.

Good Luck

Edited September 30, 2008 by ubonjoe

[john b good]

Consider what you will be doing for housing, if you are renting many houses do not have a dedicated landline phone connection. You would need a WP to have it installed in your name. Not the end of the world but some thing to consider if your work depends on it.

You do not need a WP to have a telephone line in your own name. I have two "one TOT & one TT&T"

[bermuda]

Hi Fox, would you consider teaching once a week in our school and in exchange we might be able to help you with your visa to stay legally in Thailand for a long term with an option of a multiple re-entry visa? Of course you will be responsible for your visa expenses. You just have to commit yourself teaching Thai students once a week. This method is tested and proven beneficial to the previous foreigner who was with us for a year.

Another way is to set up your own education business employing 7 persons to legalise your stay in Thailand for a long term. This will require a substantial amount on your part.

If you are interested, we can communicate here in this forum or privately by PM

[frenchFARANGbkk]

The idea would be to invest as little money as possible, and rent whatever can be, so as to be able to return to France quickly if things go wrong somehow.

Can anyone here tell me if that project has a chance to work ? What problems I might face ? What solutions exist ?

Hi,

Just one thing to say: Going back to France? Forget it! After living here for a while you will understand how your previous life in France suxxed compared to your new Thai life and will never want to go back!

About the visa, do exactly as you want, tourist visa, company, Thai wife, everything is ok, and you can stay here even 20 years on a tourist visa if you want, you won't be the first one to do that....

Remember that soon you will be so bored to have to go back to France, so just sell everything you can and won't need anymore before going to Thailand, or you will face the problem to have to go to France when you don't want in the future!

Also, forget any other destination as some advised, only Thailand is the perfect place to live in Asia (and whole world), and if you don't know Cambodian or Vietnamese people just travel there and you will know that they cannot compare in any way (ah, yes, they are just better for stealing and cheating)!

These are just some advices based on what I have seen after many years in Thailand and Asia but maybe you are different and will prefer going back to live in France to pay high tax and deal with boring people...

Enjoy!

[PaulHamon]

Consider what you will be doing for housing, if you are renting many houses do not have a dedicated landline phone connection. You would need a WP to have it installed in your name. Not the end of the world but some thing to consider if your work depends on it.

Didn't need a WP for LandLine, Power, Water, Internet or anything... Got all of those things when I was on a Non B without WP.

[phuketrichard]

You can sure get a 1year visa in France and after that go for the ED visa.I been doing same as you,internet for a couple of years,keep it to your self

and you dont have any problem.Forgett Cambodja,its a shithole,was there 6 month never again but Philippines is great,moving there now.No bullshit

with visa,you are welcome there not like Thailand,and everybody speak english.If you want to make more internet business Philippines is the place.

BULLSHIT,

I moved up here to Cambodia in June after 22 years inn Thailand and love it. I also still hold and keep my 1 year retiremnte extension in Thailand. Of curse if ur into fancy high class shopping and restauntants you might think its not that good but in all other respects its great. You get a 1 year BUSINESS visa for $250 with no paerowrk, You can do anything you want.

Interent is the only bad thinga s high speed is expensive, (what you pay 1,500 baht for in Bangkok would cost ay over $250/month here.

Food about the same although street food not as pentyfull or as good.

Girsl are much nicer and friendlier and easier to meet OURside the bars of which there are plenty "hostess"bars.

Come over and ook for yourselve . dont believe anyone that says its a shit hole

[scrabbleking]

I've been in Thailand over 1 year now with tourist visas. I get double entry in the USA, each one is for 60 days, then get 30 day extention in Thailand so that makes 6 months. Can go home and do again or go Vietnam, etc and they will give you single entry for 60 days and then can get 30 day extention. As long as you fly in I am pretty sure you won't ever have a problem. What IS limited is the boarder runs by land, which is 3 per entry visa (not 3 per year which often quoted!). Example: get a 60 day, 30 extention in Thailand, then can make 3 boarder runs, which makes 6 months, then you have to leave.

I wouldn't bother with the hassle of any other visa besides tourist visa etc.

[frenchFARANGbkk]

People are funny:

Philippines: Even the the Filipino don't want to live in that place anymore, but I agree that one's need to be robbed or kidnapped a first time to understand ;-)

Cambodia: No good street food, no malls, no internet? So great! hahaha....

No offense guys, I'm joking, but you speak as one of my friend who always get excited every time he finds a new place/country and then after a while comes back to Thailand and say that it is really the best place in the world to live (but he hasn't tried 180 countries yet, so I guess he will still have the feeling that somewhere else might be better...)

[jackr]

Unless you're a complete piss-head and can't control your finances, if you're making enough to live in Farangset you'll have no qualms here even without your 'complimentary' grand. Go for it

[AsiaCheese]

Technically speaking (i.e. according to Thai law), anything outside sleeping, eating & laying on the beach is considered "working" -- that goes as far as helping a neighbor drive a nail in his wall.

But then: "flying under the radar" and not bragging about it should be no problem at all in your case. Lots of people use their computers for hours on end every day, and they're not working either...

The suggestion above (school) sounds good to me; another one might be to participate (= invest a bit) in some company here, and get a real WP (through that company, just leave your actual work outside the picture; you don't want to be taxed in Thailand for income in France).

[yeti]

First of all, you making a living via the net is not a special case by a mile.

Taking into account the turmoil in the financial markets, and the serious knock-on effect that is likely to have across most business sectors in all countries, you, like everyone else, are at great risk of losing a great chunk of your business soon. I would hold off on any move for a few months to assess the situation before making a move based on your earnings from this business. There are no safety nets here. Not a good time for such a decision IMHO, gotta let things shake out a bit before making any decisions.

That's definitely something to take into account. But having his own company he doesn't have much of a safety net in France either.

Thai consulate in Paris (not far from the Eiffel tower) will give you a double entry tourist visa no problem. Or you could call them, tell them you have a company in France, wants to explore business investment opportunities in Thailand and ask if they would agree to give you a multiple entry business visa.

[ezside]

Consider what you will be doing for housing, if you are renting many houses do not have a dedicated landline phone connection. You would need a WP to have it installed in your name. Not the end of the world but some thing to consider if your work depends on it.

You do not need a WP to have a telephone line in your own name. I have two "one TOT & one TT&T"

So what's the secret?

[milliedamm]

Hi everyone

I have been doing this for the last 2 years and living in various SE Asia countries.

DO NOT BOTHER trying to get any special business visas, just get tourist visas and stay under the radar!

Simple as that, no one will ever know and just learn to keep quiet about what you do, it can never be proved anyway! Encrypt everything.

I feel sorry for all those suckers who have to work in the West in their tiny office cubicles. Working on the web is the new way forward and everyone will be doing it this way eventually. Well the smart people will.

One last tip. Do no severe your ties with your home country. I still pay UK Tax / NI (because I can easily afford to) to maintain a status there and to make things easier to go back to the dark side if I had to.

By the way Cambodia is streets ahead of Thailand in terms of 3.5G infrastructure. It is fast and reliable and needs no landline. Also means you can move around more. Suckers have landlines!

[LittleWidgit]

Hi everyone

I have been doing this for the last 2 years and living in various SE Asia countries.

DO NOT BOTHER trying to get any special business visas, just get tourist visas and stay under the radar!

Simple as that, no one will ever know and just learn to keep quiet about what you do, it can never be proved anyway! Encrypt everything.

I feel sorry for all those suckers who have to work in the West in their tiny office cubicles. Working on the web is the new way forward and everyone will be doing it this way eventually. Well the smart people will.

One last tip. Do no severe your ties with your home country. I still pay UK Tax / NI (because I can easily afford to) to maintain a status there and to make things easier to go back to the dark side if I had to.

By the way Cambodia is streets ahead of Thailand in terms of 3.5G infrastructure. It is fast and reliable and needs no landline. Also means you can move around more. Suckers have landlines!

Gosh ! You are such a smart cookie !

[astral]

One last tip. Do no severe your ties with your home country. I still pay UK Tax / NI (because I can easily afford to) to maintain a status there and to make things easier to go back to the dark side if I had to.

NI may still look like a good investment, depending on your age.

Why pay UK tax if you don't have to?

Establish you status as Non Resident and Not Ordinarily Resident asap.

[milliedamm]

I earn 6 figures a year so paying a little tax is not an issue. I dont mind contributing to my home country and it's lazy/needy.

[goatfarmer]

Taking into account the turmoil in the financial markets, and the serious knock-on effect that is likely to have across most business sectors in all countries, you, like everyone else, are at great risk of losing a great chunk of your business soon.

That's a bit ripe. Business is by its nature a risky business. I would leave the French poster to weigh up this issue by himself.

[TheFox]

By the way Cambodia is streets ahead of Thailand in terms of 3.5G infrastructure. It is fast and reliable and needs no landline. Also means you can move around more. Suckers have landlines!

Interesting point about 3.5G ... not as a replacement to a fast ADSL landline (It's really needed as I work on big files in my profession) but as a bonus/backup solution/way to work from the beach sometimes .

What would a 3.5G internet access + USB key modem cost in Thailand ? What bandwith is to be expected ? How is the coverage in Bangkok, in Chiang Mai ?

Thanks for all of you who gave me input on this project of mine (or offered me jobs )

Also, please do not let this thread turn into a "this country is better than thailand" troll ... My choice is made anyway, as I've started learning Thai and already have business associates in Thailand. Now my problem is only deciding if, when and how I'm going there.

Edited October 6, 2008 by TheFox

[TheFox]

Taking into account the turmoil in the financial markets, and the serious knock-on effect that is likely to have across most business sectors in all countries, you, like everyone else, are at great risk of losing a great chunk of your business soon.

That's a bit ripe. Business is by its nature a risky business. I would leave the French poster to weigh up this issue by himself.

Indeed ... I'm in a very specific technical market that hasn't been touched my financial fluctuations too much.

Worst case scenario, if the world economy comes to an end, I won't have any work in France either. So I would be stuck with just my 1000$ real estate revenue for a while. Which one would you prefer : living in France with $1000 a month or living in Thailand with $1000 a month ?