The End Of The Crisis

[samuibeachcomber]

ok i did not see this topic,could you point me to what section it is in please.

[AlexLah]

OK, it is in the Pub and entertainment section.

If you have some spare time on hand, go through the "They say you should never thread in that same section.

Some of my post's in that thread contain "Cluess" to the bigger picture.

You just need to "See" it.

[flying]

OK, it is in the Pub and entertainment section.

If you have some spare time on hand, go through the "They say you should never thread in that same section.

Some of my post's in that thread contain "Cluess" to the bigger picture.

You just need to "See" it.

Is the word "Cluess" a clue? Or is it a trick clue as in Clue Less? Or did you mean Clues? Oh for gods sake man just spit it out

[samuibeachcomber]

OK, it is in the Pub and entertainment section.

If you have some spare time on hand, go through the "They say you should never thread in that same section.

Some of my post's in that thread contain "Cluess" to the bigger picture.

You just need to "See" it.

Is the word "Cluess" a clue? Or is it a trick clue as in Clue Less? Or did you mean Clues? Oh for gods sake man just spit it out

yes i think alex enjoys winding us up.but i will take a look

[AlexLah]

OK, it is in the Pub and entertainment section.

If you have some spare time on hand, go through the "They say you should never thread in that same section.

Some of my post's in that thread contain "Cluess" to the bigger picture.

You just need to "See" it.

Is the word "Cluess" a clue? Or is it a trick clue as in Clue Less? Or did you mean Clues? Oh for gods sake man just spit it out

Maybe you have to focus on "S"?

What if I told you I have a confidential document on how the market is being manipulated?

Some other interesting stuff....

Are you interested in playing "A Game"

Which band is going to play?

An announcment has been made.

I told you, they have to.......

[jcon]

What if I told you I have a confidential document on how the market is being manipulated?

<snip alex-babble>

Confidential info from a document written on April 5, 1961?

Plalex, if you worked for the government as a spy you would be much cooler... but you work at Siemems, don't you IIRC? Or something to do with paint? Or is that your 'cover?'

Just tell us what's going to happen so we can get on with our lives. And use less spacing in your posts - or is it some secret conspiracy to eat up storage space on servers, thereby providing the catalyst for a global meltdown of sorts?

[Khun Jean]

I think the end of the crisis will be the day that money does not get created as debt but as a result of something that was created.

Now the US borrows money from the FRB (as crazy as that is in itself) and pays from that the previous debt + interest from the previous time they borrowed money from the FRB.

I think it is clear that will not work in the long term.

If the US borrows 100US$ and have to pay 5% interest they have to pay back (if they do it in a year) 105US$. However this money has to come from somewhere. It comes from you. You work and pay taxes. That 5$ comes from your tax. But where did you get the money from. As a salary. But where does your boss gets the money from. From his customers, but where do his costumers get their money from. If you continue that you arrive at a bank that borrowed it to someone. And that someone has to pay it back with interest too.

It is a circle with ever increasing debt to be able to pay back the ever increasing interest.

Every single dollar in existence is one time borrowed from a bank.

If you continue that process you will arrive at a moment that you can not pay the interest anymore without increasing prices. If prices go up, interest rates go up. and then prices have to go up again to be able to pay that interest. That is the main cause of a hyperinflation.

If you take gold for instance, someone in the past did a lot of work do get it out of the ground, process it to make it pure. That is why gold has a certain value, it costs a lot of time and effort to get/make it. And the moment it is 'ready' it is just there, high value without debt.

Current fiat money unfortunately not. it is just typed into a computer without lots of time or effort going into it. In fact it is so little work that the real value is close to zero.

Only the fact that someone wants it, believes in it, and pays interest on it, it gets its worth. But that is after the creation. It has to gain value. But if you type another number into a computer whatever the previous person who got the money did to make it valuable is now destroyed or greatly diluted.

In Minnesota they have a ready made solution for this problem.

Let's Review

* Banks create all money.

* They do it when they make loans.

* Banks only create the principal when they make a loan.

* Banks never create money to pay interest when they make a loan.

* Since banks create all of the money as loan principal, then money to pay interest on one loan, comes from someone else's loan principal.

* Therefore, there is always more debt than money!

* That means increased levels of bankruptcies.

* Bankruptcies provide the system with money to pay interest - not taught in schools, but the truth.

* This debt based money system, institutionalizes corruption.

* When loan principal is repaid, it gets "extinguished".

* Thus, we can never get out of debt - unless we change to a wealth based system.

* Gold will not work as money - there is not enough of it in the entire world to pay off our debt.

* If we paid off all the debt, we would have no money in circulation.

* That's because we use debt for money.

* 3 ways to get money into circulation - gift it, loan it or spend it.

* You should be aware of the consequences of each.

* We should "spend it, not lend it"

* The Federal Reserve does not "print up" our money - it loans out "money"

* Most of the money you see on T.V., rolling off the printing press, is to replace existing worn out Federal Reserve Notes.

* "Velocity is what pays interest" - is a sham - a phantom explanation - money can't be principal and interest payments at the same time, no matter how fast it changes hands.

* "Production pays interest" is a sham too. Production is not money - and you need money to pay interest, today. If you sell your production for money, somewhere in the system that money was borrowed, in order for it to exist.

* Production and money are different.

* A debt based money system, ensures that the one doing the loaning eventually gets the property.

* The people doing the work, should get the property.

* Property Rights are essential to a free people - the essence of liberty.

* If you do all the work and someone else gets the property - that's slavery.

* We should own our money.

* Now, we don't.

* But, we could.

The rest here.

I found it the best reasoning of the current system and i agree that when it is implemented by our governments the ever increasing debt and interest problem is over.

And that will mark the end of this crisis, which did not even really started.

Edited January 18, 2009 by Khun Jean

[Naam]

If you take gold for instance, someone in the past did a lot of work do get it out of the ground, process it to make it pure. That is why gold has a certain value, it costs a lot of time and effort to get/make it. And the moment it is 'ready' it is just there, high value without debt.

Current fiat money unfortunately not. it is just typed into a computer without lots of time or effort going into it. In fact it is so little work that the real value is close to zero.

when my wife goes shopping she always pays with fiat money and to the best of my knowledge she was never asked to pay with gold

[flying]

when my wife goes shopping she always pays with fiat money and to the best of my knowledge she was never asked to pay with gold

You know I never knew such places existed. Then I saw a post last night.

I wonder how long they have been around & if many use it?

I have not really read their sites yet. I will out of curiousity though.

http://pecunix.com/money.refined...tur.pecunix

http://www.e-gold.com/

[Khun Jean]

If you take gold for instance, someone in the past did a lot of work do get it out of the ground, process it to make it pure. That is why gold has a certain value, it costs a lot of time and effort to get/make it. And the moment it is 'ready' it is just there, high value without debt.

Current fiat money unfortunately not. it is just typed into a computer without lots of time or effort going into it. In fact it is so little work that the real value is close to zero.

when my wife goes shopping she always pays with fiat money and to the best of my knowledge she was never asked to pay with gold

You forgot to include this into the quote:

Only the fact that someone wants it, believes in it, and pays interest on it, it gets its worth. But that is after the creation. It has to gain value. But if you type another number into a computer whatever the previous person who got the money did to make it valuable is now destroyed or greatly diluted.

Out of context and not fully quoted, makes for an easy one liner.

I do know Klingons come from another world, an imaginary one even. But now that you are here on earth.

How in your opinion does fiat money come into existence?

Edited January 18, 2009 by Khun Jean

[Naam]

If you take gold for instance, someone in the past did a lot of work do get it out of the ground, process it to make it pure. That is why gold has a certain value, it costs a lot of time and effort to get/make it. And the moment it is 'ready' it is just there, high value without debt.

Current fiat money unfortunately not. it is just typed into a computer without lots of time or effort going into it. In fact it is so little work that the real value is close to zero.

when my wife goes shopping she always pays with fiat money and to the best of my knowledge she was never asked to pay with gold

You forgot to include this into the quote:

Only the fact that someone wants it, believes in it, and pays interest on it, it gets its worth. But that is after the creation. It has to gain value. But if you type another number into a computer whatever the previous person who got the money did to make it valuable is now destroyed or greatly diluted.

Out of context and not fully quoted, makes for an easy one liner.

I do know Klingons come from another world, an imaginary one even. But now that you are here on earth.

How in your opinion does fiat money come into existence?

1. i don't have to quote each and everything again that can be read only one posting above. i assume most TV-members can read although sometimes i have some doubts. it would be different if one has to scroll a few pages to read the whole contents.

2. we Klingons deal with facts and do not engage in phantasies no matter on what logical background these phantasies might be based. too many times i have heard the fairy tale "fiat money will soon to be worthless" to believe in it although my grandparents and my parents experienced it after the war. but they also had to find out how worthless gold became in these times when they paid with gold to purchase a bag with 50kg potatoes and a ham. nevertheless i have alternative plans "just in case". it is correct that paper money turned out to be quite worthless in specific cases. but it never happened over night, i.e. there is always a time span left for alternatives and adjustments. but these plans do not comprise the hoarding of gold or other precious metals combined with the illusion that the hoard will provide a lifetime of living happily ever after.

3. to me it does not matter how fiat money was created. what matters is that i have dealt all my life with fiat money and still do.

[Naam]

Only the fact that someone wants it, believes in it, and pays...

for it with goods and/or services gives gold a certain but very fluctuating value. and that goes for each and everything be it food, drinks, pussy, roof over the head or you name it.

[flying]

my grandparents and my parents experienced it after the war. but they also had to find out how worthless gold became in these times when they paid with gold to purchase a bag with 50kg potatoes and a ham.

You know that is a bit of a contradiction right? They did in fact get potatoes & ham as opposed to squat perhaps if they had no gold.

But I know uin your mind your saying shoot look they had to pay a 800 dollar ( todays price ) coin for potatoes & ham.

That may be true but again valuation is quite different in a crisis isnt it?

All that aside did you see the more recent link of someone with actual experience?

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/portal/index...79&Itemid=2

I believe it was KhunJean who posted it too.

Anyway in that 1st hand account one thing he said was what he did learn was in reality when TSHTF gold is great but you should have small denominations to avoid what I think your describing.

He said in fact a bag of gold rings would be a great thing to have.

What I would do if I were you: Besides gold coins, buy a lot of small gold rings and other jewelry. They should be less expensive than gold coins, and if the SHTF bad, you’ll not be losing money, selling premium quality gold coins for the price of junk gold. If I could travel back in time, I’d buy a small bag worth of gold rings.

nevertheless i have alternative plans "just in case". it is correct that paper money turned out to be quite worthless in specific cases. but it never happened over night, i.e. there is always a time span left for alternatives and adjustments. but these plans do not comprise the hoarding of gold or other precious metals combined with the illusion that the hoard will provide a lifetime of living happily ever after.

Good to hear & I would agree it does not happen over night. But I would disagree with your saying there is always time......I do not know if the USD will collapse.

I sure do not see many good alternatives for it.....boy I wish I did. That plus many other problems here now in the USA. If & when the others decide not to prop us up anymore then we will go down like a lead balloon.

Also I do not think many presume to live happily ever after on anything. But the same was true for bomb shelters that my grandparents had. None had enough food in them to live happily ever after & that was not the point.

[sendbaht]

"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu

Since I am studing Tzu right now I thought this a perfect time to post a qoute.

[Khun Jean]

3. to me it does not matter how fiat money was created. what matters is that i have dealt all my life with fiat money and still do.

It matters, it is actually the whole point.

It is created as debt. Just as a example. If 100US$ is created, the one who uses it has to pay it back PLUS interest. But THAT money is not there. It has to be introduced into the system as a NEW debt.

So that 100US$ can ONLY be paid back when MORE money is loaned. And that can only be paid back when even more money is loaned, etc...

Until you reach a point that the amount of money in the system is not enough to even pay the interest.

The ONLY way to keep money in the system that is available to pay the interest is when there is a bankruptcy. Then the principal and the interest are not paid and the money is somewhere available in the system.

[Khun Jean]

Only the fact that someone wants it, believes in it, and pays...

for it with goods and/or services gives gold a certain but very fluctuating value. and that goes for each and everything be it food, drinks, pussy, roof over the head or you name it.

And again that is not the whole quote. Sure somebody can go find it. You just take it out of context.

it was:

Only the fact that someone wants it, believes in it, and pays interest on it, it gets its worth. But that is after the creation. It has to gain value. But if you type another number into a computer whatever the previous person who got the money did to make it valuable is now destroyed or greatly diluted.

But i understand, it was easy for making yet another one liner without anything substantial. A higher post count is all what it accomplishes.

[Naam]

And again that is not the whole quote.

it is my prerogative to quote part or whole. i do as i deem fit

[Naam]

Only the fact that someone wants it, believes in it, and pays...

for it with goods and/or services gives gold a certain but very fluctuating value. and that goes for each and everything be it food, drinks, pussy, roof over the head or you name it.

And again that is not the whole quote. Sure somebody can go find it. You just take it out of context.

it was:

Only the fact that someone wants it, believes in it, and pays interest on it, it gets its worth. But that is after the creation. It has to gain value. But if you type another number into a computer whatever the previous person who got the money did to make it valuable is now destroyed or greatly diluted.

But i understand, it was easy for making yet another one liner without anything substantial. A higher post count is all what it accomplishes.

you think your two lines plus three words are superior?

[Naam]

"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu

words of wisdom!

[Naam]

my grandparents and my parents experienced it after the war. but they also had to find out how worthless gold became in these times when they paid with gold to purchase a bag with 50kg potatoes and a ham.

You know that is a bit of a contradiction right? They did in fact get potatoes & ham as opposed to squat perhaps if they had no gold.

But I know uin your mind your saying shoot look they had to pay a 800 dollar ( todays price ) coin for potatoes & ham.

a contradiction only if you look at the expression "worthless" only. using "how worthless" has a distinct different meaning. perhaps not in American but for sure in English

[flying]

my grandparents and my parents experienced it after the war. but they also had to find out how worthless gold became in these times when they paid with gold to purchase a bag with 50kg potatoes and a ham.

You know that is a bit of a contradiction right? They did in fact get potatoes & ham as opposed to squat perhaps if they had no gold.

But I know uin your mind your saying shoot look they had to pay a 800 dollar ( todays price ) coin for potatoes & ham.

a contradiction only if you look at the expression "worthless" only. using "how worthless" has a distinct different meaning. perhaps not in American but for sure in English

But did my point have no merit at all?

It was after all you who said

when they paid with gold

There is no American Language although we do like to butcher english when possible

Although sometimes going back & forth with you I do tend to forget the point.

Because it gets lost in the minutia that follows

For instance if we stick to the subject was it not your intention to say how worthless gold was when they paid for xxx?

That is in fact what you said.

To which I reply is that not a contradiction? How can something be worthless when you used it to pay for something.....?

See what I mean about the minutia?

[Naam]

See what I mean about the minutia?

no, i don't see it Flying and you don't see it even when a hint and a simple explanation is presented. refreshing is that there is a discussion instead of stubborn quotings by copying and pasting or posting links what this famous and that famous guru has said in favour of gold by condemning fiat money. but even the latter adds to my daily entertainment as it is much more interesting than the boring topics "My Girlfriend/Wife Thinks I Am An ATM" or "Racist Restaurant Cheats When Serving Additional Bowl of Rice!"

[humbug]

this article links a few great research papers by socgen, mish and McHugh

all say 2009 will just continue to get worse

http://www.infowars.com/?p=7200

Edited January 19, 2009 by humbug

[Naam]

this article links a few great research papers by socgen, mish and McHugh. all say 2009 will just continue to get worse

we don't need loser banks like Société Générale and/or loser experts from other investment banks to tell us that the situation will get worse. anybody who is following the daily [extremely bad] news is aware of that. everybody should also know that 2010 won't be much better (if any better) and that it will take several years to digest what the banker idiots have served

having said so, i would like to add it's not the end of the world, the planet will still be spinning, the sun will shine, most of the time it will be hot in Thailand and those who don't want to sweat need to aircondition their homes. the worst i envisage to happen is that i have to pay my electricity bill with gold bullion

[humbug]

some people may think things might get better, thats the point of the link,

sorry that faber,mish,McHugh are such losers, i would think they have tried to be as factual about the the financial crisis to a wider audience as possible

compare their research to your research, do you have any thoughts on 2009?

[samuibeachcomber]

some people may think things might get better, thats the point of the link,

sorry that faber,mish,McHugh are such losers, i would think they have tried to be as factual about the the financial crisis to a wider audience as possible

compare their research to your research, do you have any thoughts on 2009?

dont mind naam's throwaway rhetoric...............just adds to the debate.

[Khun Jean]

Naam is in denial, happens to many.

Fiat money has worked a long time, for many their live long. It still works although now some cracks are showing up.

Instead of closing the cracks the ones in power are breaking it open more and more. It is such abuse that has never been done on a scale like now. Nobody knows what will happen, but in the mean time, banks are closing companies going bankrupt, people loose jobs, etc...

Sure you can deny it, but it is happening right in your face. Ignoring all the signals would be stupid, preparing for when the current trend continues is not. Everybody wishes for a recovery, but it is just that a wish. Nothing happening now is pointing to a recovery in the slightest. sure some brokers that have no more work because nobody invests in the stock market anymore are calling a bottom almost every day. Most don't believe them as in situations like these everybody is without a clue how it will progress.

Naam, i am waiting for your quote out of context and a one liner.

Can i suggest:

Fiat money has worked a long time, for many their live long. It still works...

Edited January 19, 2009 by Khun Jean

[lannarebirth]

"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu

Since I am studing Tzu right now I thought this a perfect time to post a qoute.

Unless one takes a market neutral position (which in itself is a prediction of sorts), all market participants are making predictions. Call it a point of view if you like. Nothing wrong with it, even if you're "prediction" is wrong . The only problem is choosing to stay wrong.

[AlexLah]

What if I told you I have a confidential document on how the market is being manipulated?

<snip alex-babble>

Confidential info from a document written on April 5, 1961?

Plalex, if you worked for the government as a spy you would be much cooler... but you work at Siemems, don't you IIRC? Or something to do with paint? Or is that your 'cover?'

Just tell us what's going to happen so we can get on with our lives. And use less spacing in your posts - or is it some secret conspiracy to eat up storage space on servers, thereby providing the catalyst for a global meltdown of sorts?

Jcon, it is time you switch on that lightbulb in yer head

A document was recently discovered that dates back indeed to 1961 which describes how to manipulate the market, meaning they have been doing this at least since then.

Interesting you mention Siemens, Google this: Siemens Siekaczek.

OK ok I will watch the spacing.

Did you heard/read what Obama had to say about Bush his farewell speech?

He is a good man but made a few mistakes, I guess he did.

Obama did not make the mistake to comment on Gaza, he said: There is only one President, remember that!

Funny that murderers get rewarded.

Sometimes the "Elite" get's a free dinner to discuss the next step's

Talking about someone calling the other a good guy reminds me of those guy's

This guy said that this guy

Was a "Good" guy, the only thing is, that first guy is about 3 times better.

And here some old news that makes you understand why this Satyam case will take a bit longer to resolve.

So when big coorperations including banks go offshore do not pay a substanial amount of tax and pay bribes to all kind of officials cook their balance sheets and when they then get money from the taxpayer to "help" them out, you know there is some serious problem here.

So that error needs to be resolved first, but hey those banks have nice big offices, you wonder where all that money came from?

This guy needs to be carefull, sometimes planes go down due to sudden increase in magnificent force of nature called: Gravity.

Just like these guy's on board that got a warning perhaps?

Both engines are in the river was told right? I wonder how it magically reattached itself, is that guy looking for birds?

Key is , do not always believe what the mainstream media is trying to put inside your head as they are all controlled by those that have "The" knowledge and there our litlle Chinse guy was wrong. People with "The" knowledge do not have to predict because they know what is coming.

Great empires have existed throughout history and all had one thing in mind, World domination. They also all failed. Great Brittain, the Romans, the Mongolian empire, many examples. By studying these empires and the reasons why they were succesfull iniatially but failed in the end you can then look at our current situation and see a pattern.

You also need to know why all these wars of let's say the last 100 years or so were started and ended to understand what is happening right now.

Or is it what is not happening?

And for Jcon asking me what is going to happen, there are different scenario's and they are just running their computer simulations to find out which is the best.

1. A big war (Most likely)

2. Domestic war

3. Some big terrorist attack, think of something bigger then 9/11

4. Pandemic

5. Natural disaster

And what else you can think of to make mass casualties in order to get big profit's for the ones with "The" knowledge.

I told you all before that those people have absolutely no regrets or bad feelings when hundreds of thousand people die because of ther decisions.

This is what he said:

How to prepp the peasant on what is coming.

As I said, something big is about to happen that will feel like a big earthquake on your head.

They will have something better, something you would never think of.

Edited January 19, 2009 by AlexLah

[Naam]

some people may think things might get better, thats the point of the link,

sorry that faber,mish,McHugh are such losers, i would think they have tried to be as factual about the the financial crisis to a wider audience as possible

compare their research to your research, do you have any thoughts on 2009?

is my english really that bad Humbug? i specifically mentioned investment banks/bankers (to which e.g. Faber does not belong) who are trying to tell us that two plus two equals four. and if you don't agree that i call them losers then please enlighten me and suggest an appropriate name for them.

i aired my thoughts already. here they are again for those who hate scrolling back:

"we don't need loser banks like Société Générale and/or loser experts from other investment banks to tell us that the situation will get worse. anybody who is following the daily [extremely bad] news is aware of that. everybody should also know that 2010 won't be much better (if any better) and that it will take several years to digest what the banker idiots have served

having said so, i would like to add it's not the end of the world, the planet will still be spinning, the sun will shine, most of the time it will be hot in Thailand and those who don't want to sweat need to aircondition their homes. the worst i envisage to happen is that i have to pay my electricity bill with gold bullion"