Well Dave, not holding a degree in International Law, I have merely included the articles i thought pertinent to the discussion.

As noted previously in the thread, Israel's first governments were made up of of men and women who were members of terrorist organizations such as Irgun and the Stern Gang. They were labeled as such by the authorities of the day, the British. This after assassinations, including those of British soldiers and a United Nations peace envoy, and bombings. This is a fact.

Pot, kettle, black.

Well, that's two of us who are lacking than. Perhaps a fellow forum member could straighten us both out for parts that are not fully understood or even mis-understood.

Israel's first government did indeed include people that had harrassed the British, to include executions of British officers (regardless of the fact that Britian had not honoured their promises of the Balfour Declerations, going so far as to issue the White Paper of 1939 and actually providing funds and munitions to the same people who followed the Grand Mufti of Israel-an admirer and one time guest of Adolf Hitler), but it also no includes Arab Muslims who if they had not been born inside Israeli borders would, if they don't currently, assume the name 'palestinians'. Futhermore, despite not being a signatory to the Geneva Convention, which wasn't even ratified to that point, Irgun did the same thing that the IDF is doing today; gave warning and allowed time for the area to clear. But to ignore the fact that Ben-Gurion actually accomodated the British in finding and bringing to justice these terrorists is extremely disingenious. By stating "first governments were made up of of men and women who were members of terrorist organizations" you try to imply the whole of the government was comprised of terrorists rather than a portion of it (and one could argue that all governments have elements in them which could be labled terrorist) when the consideration of all the facts do not support those assumptions.

None the less, that is old history. I can see how you're trying to draw parallels between Israel's fight for their independence and the Gazan's current fight but there are also significant differences. For instance, with the limited exception of Fatah giving up Hamas terrorists (political not based on some humitarian desire), where is there significant traction being made in bringing to account the Gazan terrorists to justice that was was in the 1940's in Israel? And there were reprisals against Irgun; from the beginning the British hanged each one they were able to catch regardless of the crime. Irgun escalated their actions in response to that.

Sad,very sad to notice how people can adopt twisted logic to justify crimes against children and defenseless people ,or yet outrageously deny that as few posts had denied such crimes.

I am not fan of Hamas and totally condemn all their acts. But; why would innocent people always have to pay the price in a mass and organized destruction by a full-equipped country's army? Is it accepted?

Those helpless people are just unfortunate to live there (if they had a better chance-they would have emigrated elsewhere for sure).

Mass punishment is a dangerous strategy, it can turn the surviving innocent victims into "enemies".

Btw, Ulysses G. ;Palestinians were welcomed to live in the neighboring Arabic countries since 1948. It is just a very sweeping generalization of misinformed judgment you had posted about Arabs hating Palestinians.

Before was David against Goliath. But who is Goliath now??

Btw, Ulysses G. ;Palestinians were welcomed to live in the neighboring Arabic countries since 1948. It is just a very sweeping generalization of misinformed judgment you had posted about Arabs hating Palestinians.

sorry Zaza, but i [not so] humbly beg to disagree. of course Palestinians were/are not hated in other arab countries, Kuwait being an exception. but the fact is that they were eyed with suspicion and especially envy as they had a better education than the average Arab. Saudi Arabia for example denies until today citizenship even to those Palestinians who were born in the kingdom and Kuwaitis will never forget how the Palestinians behaved by cheering Saddam's invasion in 1990.

OlRedEyes Posted Today, 2009-01-07 10:38:16

The toughest conflict on the planet, and I cannot see it being resolved for a long, long time.

Actually, I totally agree with what you have written here, however, almost everyone on the planet has agreed with Israel's right to exist and they have fought and won many wars and are not going to go away without blowing the whole area to kingdom come.

As you implied, almost all of the Palestinians and most Israelis realize that the Palestinians will never stop trying to kill them all and "push them into the sea". To them, the “peace process” is just naive theater that they have to put on every once in a while to keep their sponsors and the rest of the world happy, but they all know better.

I don't see any real solution either.

Those helpless people are just unfortunate to live there (if they had a better chance-they would have emigrated elsewhere for sure).

Btw, Ulysses G. ;Palestinians were welcomed to live in the neighboring Arabic countries since 1948. It is just a very sweeping generalization of misinformed judgment you had posted about Arabs hating Palestinians.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? Of course they would have gone to the neighboring Arabic countries if they could. THEY CAN"T! Maybe you have noticed that Egypt has shut down their common border?

Irgun and the Stern Gang were not the nicest of folks, but they did not do a lot that was unusual for any military unit at the time. They did not kill men, women and children who had nothing to do with their war as the Palestinians have done many, many times. They might have been "terrorists" in the way that they were not a regular army - as Israel was not a nation yet - but they were not terrorists in the modern sense of indiscriminant killing of people who have nothing to do with a particular fight...

goes on in Gaza now. only the syntax has changed and been taken over from (mainly) U.S. military and White House terminology. dead or maimed children and innocent civilians in Viet Nam, Gaza, Afghanistan, Iraq and other areas are called now collateral damage.

The toughest conflict on the planet, and I cannot see it being resolved for a long, long time.

Before condemning the Palestinians, remember that the outside world forced the establishment of a state within their lands. They were forcibly removed. Now imagine anyone does that to anyone anywhere in the world. Will they just let it go? Ever? For centuries? The history of the Palestinians is often forgotten in the heat of more recent events there. The Palestinians though cannot be expected to forget in such a short time.

Israel's desire to have a peaceful secure state is understandable. Rockets being fired continuously into their territory is unacceptable. Suicide-bombers coming through the crossings as well. It's reaction is also understandable.

Now what. A peace deal won't work, because a very large part of Palestinian society can never accept the way their land was taken. Can anyone really blame them? This is what is behind the rockets and bombings. They will not accept a forgive and forget deal that in effect says they must simply shut up about the taking of their land. Understandable also.

It is a colossal screw up made by the West. Nobody sees a solution. There is no solution.

But understand both sides. Here the West IS firmly to blame.

Precisely. Palestine has suffered two longterm, illegal occupations, first by the UK and now by 'Israelis'.

Ulysses, imagine the US was involved in a worldwide conflict in which it was defeated. Suppose, for example, among the allied victors was China, and the victors decided they would give California to disenfranchised Chinese who had been expelled from various SE Asian countries during the anti-Chinese political upheavals of the 1960s. Over the next 40 years the more economically aggressive Chinese steadily displace most non-Chinese from the most civilised and desirable portions of the state, even pushing you to the borders of Mexico and Canada. You aren't welcome in those countries either and are constantly persecuted by the new Chinese establishment.

You just might find yourself taking up arms.

Irgun and the Stern Gang were not the nicest of folks, but they did not do a lot that was unusual for any military unit at the time. They did not kill men, women and children who had nothing to do with their war as the Palestinians have done many, many times. They might have been "terrorists" in the way that they were not a regular army - as Israel was not a nation yet - but they were not terrorists in the modern sense of indiscriminant killing of people who have nothing to do with a particular fight...

goes on in Gaza now. only the syntax has changed and been taken over from (mainly) U.S. military and White House terminology. dead or maimed children and innocent civilians in Viet Nam, Gaza, Afghanistan, Iraq and other areas are called now collateral damage.

How about Russia for starts and pretty much every other country on earth? The U.S. has no monopoly on killing civilians as part of a military operation if they have no other choice to achive their military objective.

I'm not saying that I agree with it, but pretty much every country does it and always has.

You just might find yourself taking up arms.

You might be right, but after 50 years of getting the sh*t kicked out of me and all of my freinds over and over and over again, you better believe that I would sign those "Land for Peace" papers!

Those helpless people are just unfortunate to live there (if they had a better chance-they would have emigrated elsewhere for sure).

Btw, Ulysses G. ;Palestinians were welcomed to live in the neighboring Arabic countries since 1948. It is just a very sweeping generalization of misinformed judgment you had posted about Arabs hating Palestinians.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? Of course they would have gone to the neighboring Arabic countries if they could. THEY CAN"T! Maybe you have noticed that Egypt has shut down their common border?

NO! I am not contradicting myself there. I strongly stand for each word I said there and meant it.

To be able to leave your own land takes more than a will to do it, and to be considered as a homeless refugee(that's a UN definition for people who departs their country for conflict-war unrest) whether they are accepted or not in other countries; is a difficult agony and needs a lot of money to relocate or travel for another country ,Thus; most old people or big families can NOT afford that, and are forced to stay and suffer till they die naturally or not.

According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of Hamas' work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities"

Not bad for a terrorist organization.

This is a bad copy, but readable. Lots about how much the Arabs have treated their Palestinian "brothers."

Arab Treatment of Palestinians

Deliberate Social Deprivation by “Friends.� How Arabs

abuse so-called Palestinians.

On February 27, 2004, Reuters reported that people living in PA controlled areas are becoming increasingly

critical of their leaders. This supports previous comments from the AP, late last year, that the Arab world is

manipulating the Palestinian cause to the detriment of the people themselves. Reported again in the “LA

Times�, on January 4, the article states that most Arab countries have denied citizenship, jobs and

education to anyone claiming Palestinian ancestry. The article quotes 35-year-old Mohmoud Zahar: "We

can't own a house, land or get a loan from the bank, despite the fact that I was born here (in Egypt) and have

no idea what is Palestine�. A Cairo-based Palestinian writer, speaking in the same article says: "The

language of the (Arab) governments and media is in one direction and the real practices on the ground are

totally the opposite.�

Hisham Youssef, spokesman for the 22-nation Arab League, acknowledged that Palestinians live 'in

very bad conditions,' but he said the policy is meant 'to preserve their Palestinian identity’. “If

every Palestinian who sought refuge in a certain country was integrated and accommodated into that country,

there won't be any reason for them to return to Palestine,� AP reported. Jordan would be a clear exception

to this pan-Arab policy, where Palestinians are granted full citizenship and rights. As a result, except the 13%

living in UNRWA camps, Palestinians are being progressively integrated into Jordanian society without

international welfare subsidies. This would make sense because the Palestinians are Jordanians to begin with.

The following is from the Human Rights Watch website:

Treatment and Rights in Arab Host States

The status of Palestinian exiles in Arab host states has had a fraught history since 1948, and in the region today

their lives differ dramatically depending on their place of residence. In Jordan, for example, most of the 1.5

million Palestinians have citizenship and are well integrated socially and economically, although some 278,678

are still living in camps. Unlike Jordan, Syria has maintained the stateless status of its Palestinians but has

afforded them the same economic and social rights enjoyed by Syrian citizens. According to a 1956 law,

Palestinians are treated as if they are Syrians "in all matters pertaining to...the rights of employment, work,

commerce, and national obligations". As a consequence, Palestinians in Syria do not suffer from massive

unemployment or underemployment, and only about 111,208 refugees live in camps. At the same time

Palestinians, like Syrian citizens, remain under a powerful state system in which basic civil and political rights --

such as freedom of expression and association -- are tightly controlled, and a state of emergency, in force since

1963, grants broad, unchecked powers to a vast security apparatus. In Lebanon, in sharp contrast,

hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are stateless and over half live in overcrowded camps. The

right to work is severely restricted, and massive poverty has become the norm. The situation of the

Palestinians in Lebanon deteriorated steadily in the wake of the expulsion of PLO guerrillas following the 1982

Israeli invasion. By some accounts, of the 375,218 Palestinians registered as refugees with UNRWA in

Lebanon, only some 200,000 remain; others have fled from the inhospitable conditions that

successive Lebanese governments have sustained over the last two decades.

....

Egypt is the only Arab host country that is a state party to the 1951 Convention Relative to the Status of

Refugees. However, in September 1965 the council of foreign ministers of the League of Arab States formally

acknowledged certain rights for Palestinians by signing the Protocol for the Treatment of Palestinians in Arab

States, known as the Casablanca Protocol. This brief document called upon member states to "take the

necessary measures" to guarantee to Palestinians full residency rights, freedom of movement within and among

Arab countries, and the right to work on a par with citizens.

But the protocol's good intentions clashed with subsequent developments on the ground. UNHCR notes that,

"as the Palestinian nationalist movement came into conflict with the governments of the Arab states, the legal

status of the Palestinians diminished. As a result, few Palestinians in the Arab world now enjoy a secure right to

remain in their country of residence."

For example, as the Palestinian liberation movement gained momentum, this created political and sovereignty

tensions within some host countries. This was further exacerbated by attacks on Israel and Israeli citizens

carried out by Palestinian guerrillas from the territory of those host countries which then bore the brunt of

reprisals from Israel - often resulting in deaths and injuries to the local civilian population. In Jordan, Palestinian

fighters clashed several times with the Jordanian army and were finally expelled in 1971. In Lebanon, they

became embroiled in a civil war, and their attacks on Israel lead to an Israeli invasion in 1982 and their

expulsion from Lebanon.

....

Egypt

In Egypt, for example, Palestinians experienced worsening treatment after the signing of the peace

treaty with Israel in 1978. According to one study, Palestinian students were, until 1978, "treated like the

Egyptians who received free education in schools, universities and institutes." Then the government gradually

began to impose hard currency tuition fees for Palestinians, treating them as foreigners, and "banned

Palestinian students from joining colleges of medicine, pharmacy, economics, political science, and

journalism." In addition, presidential decrees in July 1978 (No. 47 and 48) "canceled earlier decisions which

treated the Palestinians like the Egyptians. The Ministry of Human Resources also prohibited the employment of

foreigners including Palestinians in trade, particularly imports and exports, except those who were married to

Egyptians for more than five years."

More recent and extreme examples of punitive treatment of Palestinians as a byproduct of regional

politics include Kuwait's expulsion of tens of thousands of long-term residents in the wake of the

1991 Gulf war (leaving the Gazans among them who carried Egyptian travel documents with nowhere to go

because the Egyptian government denied them entry), and the Libyan government's move in 1995 to

demonstrate its displeasure with Arafat's peace negotiations with Israel by not renewing the one-year

residency visas of some 30,000 Palestinians and beginning summary deportations.

Egypt again provides an illustration of the restrictions on freedom of movement of resident Palestinians. Under

Law No. 28 of 1960, Palestinians were entitled to receive Egyptian travel documents, but these documents

"did not grant the bearer the right to enter Egypt unless a visa is obtained from the Egyptian

consulates abroad beforehand." Thus, holders of such documents who were born in Egypt or who

have lived there for most of their lives have no automatic right to stay in or reenter the country, but

must renew their visas every six months to three years. Human Rights Watch is aware of cases of

Palestinians born in Egypt who have been trapped abroad because Egyptian consulates denied their entry visa

requests in summary fashion, without providing reasons. Advocates of Palestinian refugees' rights cite these and

other examples to underscore the fragility of the refugees' residency in host countries, and the pressing need for

a more secure legal status that offers firm guarantees of freedom of movement.

Lebanon provides the clearest example of a host state's denial of rights, use of refugees as political pawns,

and illegal discrimination. In Lebanon, many Palestinians are preoccupied with basic survival,

overwhelmed by poor physical conditions in the refugee camps, pervasive poverty, high

unemployment and underemployment, and inadequate medical services. Successive Lebanese

governments have consistently opposed the permanent resettlement of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, and

state policies reflect this stance, denying virtually all social and economic rights. In addition, the state

has prohibited the expansion of existing refugee camps, which contributes to overcrowding and illegal

and unsafe building of additional stories on existing structures.

....

In addition, various legal barriers prohibit Palestinians from practicing in Lebanon as doctors,

pharmacists, engineers, lawyers or journalists. Laws, decrees, and regulations of professional associations

specify that members must hold Lebanese nationality for at least ten years or that there must be reciprocity of

treatment for Lebanese professionals in the country of citizenship of the foreign professional applying to practice

in Lebanon. For example, the journalists' syndicate restricts membership to those who have been Lebanese

citizens for at least ten years, as does the bar association. Medical, pharmacy, and engineering associations in

Lebanon all have regulations that require reciprocal treatment as conditions for membership, which by definition

excludes Palestinians who are stateless. These rules open the door for exploitation of some Palestinian

professionals, such as engineers, who have described to Human Rights Watch how they have obtained "illegal"

jobs at Lebanese firms but have no benefits and cannot sign official documents for work that they have

supervised.

There is much information reguarding Israel's treatment of Palestinians. However there is not much

out there discussing Arab treatment of Palestinian refugees. As you will see, some of the

documented mistreatment of Palestinians by fellow Arabs is much worse than anything Israel has

done to them.

After the 1948 war hundreds of thousands of Arab Palestinians ended up displaced. Many Arab

countries refused to accept these refugees and the few who did treated them like second class

citizens. Several Arab nations have had boycotts against the Palestinians, and many more have

expelled Palestinians throughout the years. Many Arab leaders claim to support the "Palestinian

Cause", yet they treat Palestinians like political pawns.

Libya Expels 30,000 Palestinians

Col. Moammar Gadhafi's decision to expel 30,000 Palestinians from Libya has been greeted with dismay in the

Middle East, where Arab countries have no intention of opening their doors to the would-be settlers.

Lebanon already has denied entry to several thousand Palestinians who arrived on two ships from Cyprus and

Greece without Lebanese travel documents, and Friday it banned maritime transport from Libya in hopes of

cutting off the flow of deportees. About 350 Palestinian from Libya with proper documents were allowed to

enter.

Other Palestinians remained stranded at sea or at the Al-Saloum checkpoint on the Libyan-Egyptian border.

Egypt has allowed Palestinians with Israeli permits for entry to Gaza or the West Bank to cross Egypt, under

escort, to the Palestinian-ruled areas. Those without permits would be turned back by Israel, Egyptian officials

said.

Gadhafi shocked the Arab world Sept. 1 when, speaking at a public rally to celebrate the 26th anniversary of

the coup that brought him to power, he called on Arab governments to expel Palestinians and

send them back to Gaza and to the West Bank as a means of punishing Israeli and

Palestinian leaders for making peace. There are an estimated 4 million Palestinians living outside what

was once Palestine.

"Since the Palestinian leaders claim they have now got a homeland and a passport," Gadhafi said, "let the

30,000 Palestinians in Libya go back to their homeland, and let's see if the Israelis would permit them to return.

That's how the world will find out that the peace it's been advocating is no more than treachery and a

conspiracy."

Gadhafi earlier had ordered hundreds of Palestinians, Egyptians and Sudanese out of Libya as a result of

disturbances in the city of Benghazi in June. Reports from Libya at the time said those deported were Muslim

fundamentalists. Gadhafi has referred to fundamentalists as heretics.

Exactly how many Palestinians have been expelled from Libya since Sept. 1 is unclear. Palestinian dissidents in

Beirut, who do not support the Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement, place the number between 1,000 and

2,000. One Beirut newspaper reported last week that up to 15,000 Palestinians were preparing to leave Libya

for Lebanon, but Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri's government has made it clear it doesn't want them.

The Palestinian issue in Lebanon, where 300,000 Palestinians still live, is a sensitive one, as many Lebanese

blame the heavy-handed tactics of the Palestine Liberation Organization for helping spark 15 years of civil war

that began in 1975. The PLO operated as a state within a state here until being driven out of Beirut by Israel in

1982.

There is near-unanimous agreement in Lebanon against letting the Palestinian refugees here remain permanently.

Many of them are refugees from the 1948 Arab-Israeli war and live in squalid communities on the outskirts of

Beirut and in Sidon. They have no work permits and no citizenship anywhere.

...

The Palestinians and Iraq

Iraq under Saddam Hussein was one of the few Arab countries that didn't mistreat its Palestinian

population. Saddam Hussein took many Palestinians into his country and gave them a privlaged

status that not even many Iraqis got. Once Saddam was removed from power, Palestinians lost many

of the privlages they had and many Iraqi civilians turned against them. Some Iraqis refered to

Palestinians as "terrorists". Many Palestinians have fled Iraq since the war.

...

According to the office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), there are 42,000

Palestinian refugees and dozens of Sudanese nationals living in Iraq.

Sudanese and Palestinians were favoured and welcomed by Saddam Hussein because he had a policy of

helping under privileged Arab communities, and these two groups in particular, due to the political

circumstances in their respective countries.

However, many Palestinians were recruited into the Baath party as a result and felt obliged to participate in

politics due to assistance they were receiving from the government.

Now, both groups complain of discrimination as US and Iraqi forces carry out strategic security operations to

flush out foreign fighters.

"Many families from these backgrounds have been suffering from discrimination in Iraq and are

being forced to leave their homes. Some have even been forced to leave the country," a senior official for the

Iraqi Red Crescent Society (IRCS), who preferred not to be named for security reasons, said.

The official continued, saying that living conditions for displaced Sudanese and Palestinians were deteriorating

and that urgent action was needed from the new government.

....

Arabs of different nationalities, particularly Sudanese and Palestinians, received special treatment during

Saddam Hussein's regime, mainly for political gain. This included free education, medical treatment and in some

cases housing allowances.

However, following the conflict in April 2003, these benefits were stopped. Schools and universities started to

charge them for education and most of the residents who were receiving housing allowances were evicted from

their homes in Baghdad.

Aid agencies have been able to assist in some cases, but insecurity has hampered reconstruction and

resettlement efforts.

"Palestinians are people who depend from the good heart of their Muslim brothers. Saddam was

taking care of us because he understood our situation, but people now just know how to make us

displaced again and accuse us of being terrorists," Muhammad Fadel, a Palestinian and father of five said.

He added that he was now squatting at a friend's house after being kicked out of his home. Palestinians were

recruited into the Baath Party in large numbers during Saddam's time, some explained that they were

obliged to do so in order to receive ongoing benefits from the government.

Others said that Iraqis started to accuse them of being responsible for the poor economy in the

country, as Saddam was taking from the Iraqis to give to them and accused Palestinians of being part

of his intelligence service.

"Many of my friends turned their backs on me after the recent war saying that money spent on us should be

used for Iraqis. I tried to explain that it was help and nothing else and that we are brothers," Fadel said.

Aid agencies are concerned that continuing complaints of discrimination could lead to increased displacement in

a country which already has some one million people uprooted from their homes.

....

"We are not inside Iraq and this makes the situation more complicated for us to get the full picture of the

Sudanese and Palestinians' situation inside Iraq as well as for other returnees," Verney explained.

"If the government does not take an initiative to help us, we will be victims of this violence against

Arabs. I just want asylum in a country which will treat me as a human being and not an animal and

criminal," Palestinian resident in Baghdad, Mariam Omar said.

Abbas to Iraq: Stop Killing Palestinians

Dozens of Palestinians have been killed in Iraq by Iraqis belonging to various political and religious

factions over the past few months, Palestinian Authority officials here told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday.

In the past week alone, three Palestinians living in Baghdad were kidnapped and brutally murdered, the officials

said. A week earlier, gunmen kidnapped and murdered Nawaf Mussa, a Palestinian who was working as an

imam in a Baghdad mosque.

PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas on Thursday phoned several Iraqi government officials and representatives of

various groups in Baghdad, urging them to intervene to stop the killings.

The PA, according to the officials, has also requested the intervention of the US and the UN.

"Palestinian refugees in Iraq are being targeted on a regular basis," said Azzam al-Ahmed, a former

PLO ambassador to Iraq. "We are doing our utmost to stop this vicious campaign."

Ahmed said US troops in Iraq had managed to thwart several attacks on neighborhoods where large numbers

of Palestinians live, saving many lives.

Ahmed said Abbas had phoned Iraqi President Jalal Talabani and other government officials and asked them to

provide protection for the Palestinians.

"The situation is very tense," Ahmed said. "Sadly, many Iraqis, especially the Shi'ites, see the

Palestinians as allies of their rival Sunni brothers. The Palestinians are not involved in the conflict

between the Shi'ites and the Sunnis."

The families of thousands of Palestinian refugees in Iraq appealed this week to the PA leadership to launch a

worldwide campaign to stop the killings. The families demanded that the PA move all Palestinians from Iraq into

other countries.

Ala Muhanad, a spokesman for the families, told the Post it was time that all Palestinians leave Iraq.

....

The PLO's acting ambassador to Iraq, Dalil Kassous, accused elements of the Iraqi security forces of standing

behind many of the attacks. He said members of the Dhi'eb (wolf) division in the Interior Ministry attacked a

Palestinian community east of Baghdad with rockets and mortars last week.

He said gunmen also tried to storm a mosque frequented by Palestinians in the Baladiyat neighborhood in

Baghdad. According to Kassous, Palestinian gunmen managed to repel the attackers and even took one of

them prisoner.

In another recent incident, Iraqi militiamen kidnapped and murdered the two brothers of a former PLO

diplomat. Their bullet-riddled bodies were discovered in the Thawra neighborhood.

Palestinians in Lebanon

Many in Lebanon blame Palestinians and the PLO for Israel's invasion in the 80's. Palestinians

living in Lebanon are generally poor and regularly discriminated against by the government and the

locals. Palestinians face very tough passport restrictions and many of them have been stranded

outside of Lebanon for failing to comply with the complicated and freguently changing Lebanese

passport rules for the Palestinians

With Palestine, Against the Palestinians

“We are against the settlement of the refugees in any country,

but the host countries should provide the refugees with

a dignified living.… The host countries should allow the

refugees to work, to live and to move in dignity until they

achieve their right of return.�—Palestinian Cabinet

member, Saeb Erekat, in December 2003.

Palestinian refugees in Lebanon live in some of the worst conditions outside the Occupied Territories -exiled to

decaying refugee camps and barred from schools, hospitals, jobs, and city halls across the country. For more

than 55 years, Lebanon has systematically imposed a host of draconian restrictions on resident Palestinians to

prevent their integration and to signal to the international community that it considers Palestinian refugees to be an

international, not a Lebanese, problem.The government of Lebanon rules out all discussion

of refugee rights by raising objections to the permanent implantation of Palestinians into Lebanese society. It

argues that an implantation-tawteen in Lebanese political jargon-will tip the political balance of religious and

ethnic groups in the country. The tawteen issue, however, involves naturalization of the refugees rather than

interim rights pending a durable solution. Lebanon considers the issues to be one and the same, and treats the

Palestinian refugees as a security problem, rather than a humanitarian crisis. In this paper, the U.S. Committee

for Refugees (USCR) examines the systematic denial of UN Refugee Convention rights to Palestinian refugees in

Lebanon, a population that has been warehoused since 1948.

....

"Crumbling buildings-their walls riddled with bullet holes-remain as testament to the wars of the

past 50 years. Lebanon prohibits rebuilding camps damaged in war, enlarging existing camps, or

building new camps. Armed soldiers monitor entrances, searching for materials the refugees might

use to repair their homes."

...

An April 2001 law does notallow "anyone who is not a national of a recognized State, or anyone whose access

to property is contrary to the Constitution's provisions relating to 'Tawteen' to acquire real rights of any nature."

This law also prohibits Palestinian refugees from inheriting property already in their family's possession. While the

government of Lebanon freely issues travel documents to Palestinian refugees, it did not always guarantee their

readmission. In 1994, Lebanon created a new law requiring Palestinian refugees living in Lebanon to obtain exit

and re-entry permits. Five years later, the government lifted this requirement. According to the International

Federation for Human Rights (FIDH), the precedent discourages both Palestinian refugees from going abroad

and other states from granting them visas, for fear that a new revision may suddenly require a return visa to

Lebanon.

This is a great article discussing Arab treatment of Palestinians. The article is far too long to post the

whole thing on this page, but I strongly recomend everyone read it. The whole article can be found here.

Kuwait and the Palestinians

Shortly after the first Gulf war Kuwait expelled around 440,000 Palestinians living in the country

due to Arafat and the PLO's support for Saddam Hussein and Palestinian support for the invading

Iraqi army. This article goes into detail about the life of the few remaining Palestinians in Kuwait.

Kuwait: The Scars of War (this is a dead link. check out THIS one for now while i

update this)

KUWAIT - For most of the world, the Gulf War is part of history, but not for the people of Kuwait who saw

their country slip through their fingers and then miraculously returned thanks to an international military alliance led

by the United States.

Most of the scars of the Iraqi occupation are wiped clean from the towns and villages of the oil-rich state except

for a few shell-pocked buildings, hundreds of empty apartments once inhabited by Palestinians and a vast desert â

€œmuseumâ€� housing thousands of destroyed Iraqi tanks, artillery, rockets and patrol boats which act as a

reminder of the nightmare.

But the physical aspects are minimal compared to the economic, social and even psychological impact of the war.

Seldom is a conversation with a Kuwaiti citizen or resident concluded without mentioning the Gulf War —

sometimes more than once — and for good reason.

Imagine a country of only 1.4 million people where nearly half of its residents and 70 percent of its 600,000 labor

force are foreigners. Also imagine that a large chunk of the specialized labor force consisted of Palestinians who

have now been expelled from the country because of alleged collaboration with the invading Iraqi army.

No one insists that the Palestinians ran Kuwait’s infrastructure, however their departure has in fact had its

impact on the economy.

“One of my best craftsmen was a Palestinian. I have not been able to replace him with the available Indian,

Pakistani or Egyptian worker,� a Kuwaiti factory owner said recently. “No, do not use my name,� he

added swiftly.

Palestinians were prominent in every aspect of Kuwaiti life. From regional police chiefs, to top government

administrators and from the banking sector to skilled labor, Palestinians were a visible part of everyday life.

The so-called Palestinian elite was part of the social circle, while the working class made its marks on the

marketplace and the once-active labor unions.

Today, the Palestinians are all but out of the Kuwaiti scene — discredited by citizens and government

alike. The few “lucky� enough to be allowed to stay, maintain a low profile for fear of expulsion.

The Gulf War has also had a sobering effect on Kuwaiti citizens. They are more cautious and protective.

“There is a general sense of betrayal. It started with the Palestinians, but has quietly translated

into similar reservations toward other Arabs in general,� a western diplomat said recently.

....

This site notes:

The Government have been deeply concerned about the reports of the illtreatment of Palestinians following the

liberation of Kuwait. It seems clear that there was a backlash from some Kuwaitis not only against suspected

collaborators but against Palestinians in Kuwait in general.

Palestinians in Saudi Arabia

Saudi Arabia has been known to discriminate against its non-Muslim citizens and against women.

What many dont know is that Saudi Arabia also discriminates against Palestinians. Here is one

example:

The IJ [immigration judge] recognized, based on Ahmed’s testimony, that Palestinians in Saudi Arabia are

relegated to officially sanctioned second-class status incorporated into the legal and social structure of Saudi

Arabia. Ahmed sought to portray this treatment as persecution providing grounds for asylum. He testified that

although his parents have lived in Saudi Arabia for 50 years and Ahmed was born in the country, neither he nor

his parents have been able to obtain Saudi citizenship because Saudi Arabia reserves citizenship for people of

Saudi descent. To remain in the country, Palestinians must renew their residence permits every two years for a

fee of 2,000 Riyals (about $530). Palestinians must also be "sponsored" by a Saudi Arabian citizen to own real

property, work, or own a business. To illustrate the harsh effects of this requirement, Ahmed related that his

father had successfully operated and

expanded a grocery store for 15 years, only to see his Saudi sponsor - the de jure owner of the store - take the

business away once it became profitable. Each time a Palestinian wishes to change jobs, he must change

sponsors for a fee of 6,000 Riyals (about $1,600).

Ahmed testified about his experience while growing up in Saudi Arabia. He was barred from certain activities

during high school and initially was not allowed to attend a university because he was an alien. Although he was

able to gain admission to King Saud University in Riyadh because of his talent for soccer and the connections of

a family friend, he was forced to study political and administrative science at the university because aliens could

not choose their own topic of study. After graduating from the university and searching for a job for more than a

year, Ahmed was hired in 1993 to sell cars. He testified that he was paid one-third as much as his Saudi

counterparts and had to work significantly longer hours.

http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/arabtreatm...lestinians.html

Btw, Ulysses G. ;Palestinians were welcomed to live in the neighboring Arabic countries since 1948. It is just a very sweeping generalization of misinformed judgment you had posted about Arabs hating Palestinians.

sorry Zaza, but i [not so] humbly beg to disagree. of course Palestinians were/are not hated in other arab countries, Kuwait being an exception. but the fact is that they were eyed with suspicion and especially envy as they had a better education than the average Arab. Saudi Arabia for example denies until today citizenship even to those Palestinians who were born in the kingdom and Kuwaitis will never forget how the Palestinians behaved by cheering Saddam's invasion in 1990.

You are totally right in that point .I humbly beg to agree with you . Gulf people had such issues with the more liberated and educated Arabic countries that do not follow their version of social/religion structure.

Sad,very sad to notice how people can adopt twisted logic to justify crimes against children and defenseless people ,or yet outrageously deny that as few posts had denied such crimes.

I am not fan of Hamas and totally condemn all their acts. But; why would innocent people always have to pay the price in a mass and organized destruction by a full-equipped country's army? Is it accepted?

Those helpless people are just unfortunate to live there (if they had a better chance-they would have emigrated elsewhere for sure).

Mass punishment is a dangerous strategy, it can turn the surviving innocent victims into "enemies".

Btw, Ulysses G. ;Palestinians were welcomed to live in the neighboring Arabic countries since 1948. It is just a very sweeping generalization of misinformed judgment you had posted about Arabs hating Palestinians.

The crimes commited against Gazans are by Gazans. Unless you wish to deny a State's right to protection of its citizens, Israeli's reactions to Hama's terrorist activities only affect the average Gazan when Hamas deliberately uses human shields.

I'm not sure of their innocence. After all, there was a push to allow democratic elections. And we all know who won those elections in Gaza; Hamas. If the people of a territory choose to express their solidarity with a known terrorist organisation, where is their innocence? What about off the east coast of Africa? Are fully equipped countries not to send their warships to protect their country men and assests? Granted those warships aren't firing onto land, but how much outrage would there be if some fishermen got blown up along with the boat they were supplying to the pirates to make those raids? Or is it because they're not arab muslims there would be no condemnation?

Where is the mass punishment? As demonstrated in my previous postings, there is NO international law that can be applied, no matter how loosely, to define ANY of Israel's actions as mass punishment.

Precisely. Palestine has suffered two longterm, illegal occupations, first by the UK and now by 'Israelis'.

When has the Muslim Arab population ever been a nation? In order to claim occupation you must first have a sovergin status. And any first year historian would be able to tell you that the area that is now Israel and 'Palestine' were in fact part of the Ottoman Empire up until the end of the First World War. I suppose you know the phrase 'to the victor goes the spoils'. Don't read too far ahead! It's well established that the Romans were in charge of Judea/Palestine (the name they gave to the Jewish homeland). Until the Arab Muslims came and overthrew the Eastern Empire it was mostly Jewish and Christian. So the Muslims came in and took it over. There was a seesaw back and forth due to the Crusades, but at no point in time was Judea/Palestine a seperate country after the Romans conqured it. So if it's good enough for the Arab Muslims to lay claim to the land after their wars to conquer it, why is the same logic not applied in the post 1917 world?

Ulysses, imagine the US was involved in a worldwide conflict in which it was defeated. Suppose, for example, among the allied victors was China, and the victors decided they would give California to disenfranchised Chinese who had been expelled from various SE Asian countries during the anti-Chinese political upheavals of the 1960s. Over the next 40 years the more economically aggressive Chinese steadily displace most non-Chinese from the most civilised and desirable portions of the state, even pushing you to the borders of Mexico and Canada. You aren't welcome in those countries either and are constantly persecuted by the new Chinese establishment.

Interesting scenario. I'm assuming you don't believe in the phrase listed above, so the presumption on my part is that you wouldn't like it. Truth be told I wouldn't either. However, I'm a firm believer in the law of natural selection. I.E., if I can not make it, why should that hold back someone who can? But than again, I guess there's no way you could confuse me for a socialist. At best your analogy falls flat though; Arab Muslims in Israel enjoy freedoms and rights that would not extended to them in any of the surrounding States. This even includes seats in the Kessent!

You just might find yourself taking up arms.

Those helpless people are just unfortunate to live there (if they had a better chance-they would have emigrated elsewhere for sure).

Btw, Ulysses G. ;Palestinians were welcomed to live in the neighboring Arabic countries since 1948. It is just a very sweeping generalization of misinformed judgment you had posted about Arabs hating Palestinians.

And there are still refugee camps in Jordan, Eygpt and else where? When do the Gazans stop being pawns and become integrated into the society?

To be able to leave your -own land- takes more than a will to do it, and to be considered as a homeless refugee(that's a UN definition for people who departs their country for conflict-war unrest) whether they -are accepted or not in other countries-; is a difficult agony and needs a lot of money to relocate or travel for another country ,Thus; most old people or big families can -NOT- afford that, and are forced to stay and suffer till they die naturally or not.

How many Gazans still fit that definition? I.E., how many are still alive that can actually claim to have been born and lived in modern day Israel?

According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of Hamas' work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities"

Not bad for a terrorist organization.

If they cut out shooting missles into civilian neighborhoods the other 10% of the time, Israel would not be forced to bomb Gaza.

I'm not sure of their innocence. After all, there was a push to allow democratic elections. And we all know who won those elections in Gaza; Hamas. If the people of a territory choose to express their solidarity with a known terrorist organisation, where is their innocence?

It's a matter of perspective.

As far as I am concerned I believe that they choose to support an organization that devotes most of its money on developping social programmes (hospitals, education systems, libraries, soup kitchens, sports leagues, etc.). Hamas is also famous among many Palestians for not being corrupted.

I'm not sure of their innocence. After all, there was a push to allow democratic elections. And we all know who won those elections in Gaza; Hamas. If the people of a territory choose to express their solidarity with a known terrorist organisation, where is their innocence?

It's a matter of perspective.

As far as I am concerned I believe that they choose to support an organization that devotes most of its money on developping social programmes (hospitals, education systems, libraries, soup kitchens, sports leagues, etc.). Hamas is also famous among many Palestians for not being corrupted.

adjan, Since you happily admit to being an anarchist, it might help folks to know that when reading your opinions. Don't want to confuse anyone about where you are coming from.

zaza is claiming that other Arabs have invited the Palestinians to live in their countries, but she sure does not like being proved completely wrong.

Btw, Ulysses G. ;Palestinians were welcomed to live in the neighboring Arabic countries since 1948. It is just a very sweeping generalization of misinformed judgment you had posted about Arabs hating Palestinians.

sorry Zaza, but i [not so] humbly beg to disagree. of course Palestinians were/are not hated in other arab countries, Kuwait being an exception. but the fact is that they were eyed with suspicion and especially envy as they had a better education than the average Arab. Saudi Arabia for example denies until today citizenship even to those Palestinians who were born in the kingdom and Kuwaitis will never forget how the Palestinians behaved by cheering Saddam's invasion in 1990.

You are totally right in that point .I humbly beg to agree with you . Gulf people had such issues with the more liberated and educated Arabic countries that do not follow their version of social/religion structure.

More about how everyone loves the Palestinians.

Resolved QuestionShow me another »

Why Don't Palestinians Complain About The Arabs Killing Palestinians?

We always hear about the Palestinians complaining that Israel is killing Palestinians. But how come you never hear about the Palestinians being killed by Arab countries? Isn't it a known fact that the Arab countries treat Palestinians worse than anyone else in the world? They treat the Palestinians worse than 2nd class citizens. And the Arab countries have killed more Palestinians than Israel has. Or is it a crime to say that the Arabs can't do any wrong doings against the "poor, poor, innocent" palestinians?

http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/arabtrea...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Satur...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karantina_M...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Septe...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_S...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_al-Zaat...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damour_mass...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qi...28140645AALZwR5

1 week ago

More:

Why Don't Palestinians Complain About The Arabs Killing Palestinians?

We always hear about the Palestinians complaining that Israel is killing Palestinians. But how come you never hear about the Palestinians being killed by Arab countries? Isn't it a known fact that the Arab countries treat Palestinians worse than anyone else in the world? They treat the Palestinians worse than 2nd class citizens. And the Arab countries have killed more Palestinians than Israel has. Or is it a crime to say that the Arabs can't do any wrong doings against the "poor, poor, innocent" palestinians?

http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/arabtrea...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Satur...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karantina_M...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Septe...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_S...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_al-Zaat...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damour_mass...

The other arab countries hate Palestinians. Even Jordan. Many Jordanians are former Palestinians that renounced their citizienship (a required part to live there). They hate them because of the trouble they caused during the Black September operation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Septe...

Egyptians are smart, but somehow still anti-semitic as though they were living in the 1700's. Very ignorant about Israel. In fact, they should be thankfull to them because they gave them back Sinai after developing its roads and tourism (hello? Sharm El Sheik) and also it has oil.

Most palestinians are just Egyptians anyway.. just like Yasser Arafat.

I agree with Kadel! Hamas want an Islamic state, and discriminate against non-Muslim Palestinians but nobody really says anything about hamas doing this. Hamas are terrorists.

because if they did that, Israel would not look as bad as they would like it to.

Its only bad when Jews do it.

I hate to fall in the " copy & paste" what suits your 'agenda' trap.

I can copy and paste thousands of UN reports and humanitarian agencies' reports on savage and brutal massacres committed in Israel on the Palestinians,that explains why those people were left miserable choices.

As one of the wise posters had done an "imitation" of what the situation would be if you become a refugee or forced to live in an occupied country, both are not such a pleasant as you are suggesting.

Do you enjoy turning the tables? Do you suggest that -now- we should go protesting against the Arabic countries that are not so kind _enough-with Palestinians that were forced to leave their country for a well known reasons to all, instead of condemning the offensive killing in Gaza?

Why don't you prove that what you said was right instead?

Do you enjoy turning the tables? Do you suggest that -now- we should go protesting against the Arabic countries that are not so kind _enough-with Palestinians that were forced to leave their country for a well known reasons to all, instead of condemning the offensive killing in Gaza?

I would rather protest Hamas shooting rockets into Israeli cities. If they stopped that, Israel would have no choice but to stop their operations in Gaza and it would be fair to everyone and everyone would be happy.

What do you think, all you Peacenicks?

hahahha ........

Honey , let's take it slow from here , it seems that you are trying to prove something that really is a "phantom" of an alleged hate-theory between brothers.....

I think you are the one contradicting yourself here too , sometimes ;you regard all the Arabs (in 9-11 thread) are with the same mind-set, and always united on almost everything ( evil related- as you insinuate occasionally too);when it comes to discuss "terrorism" or "extremists" . But now; you are _trying so hard_ to prove they are the opposite , right ?

Remember, if the Thais doing the protests for religion reasons, then;all the regular Arabic people-not the corrupted rulers- would have more bonds of solidarity with the Palestinians .

I know the topic started out to discuss the Thai Muslims protest of the conflict between Israel/Palestine, and the invasion of Gaza

it is inevitable that you cannot discuss the protest without discussing the reason why they are protesting.

however, as you all know...the issue itself is not really Thailand related.

Im closing this thread for now, but will be discussing amongst MODs to see if there is justified reason to re-open it.

thanks for your understanding. I know that there are various issues that we would like to enter into fruitful debates on, but we just cant always take up everything on this forum

Regards

Im reopening this topic, but due to reason above, have moved it to Outside the Box in Bedlam.

It will not allow all members who want to discuss this to be able to continue...but many who have been active on this thread have access to Bedlam. So hopefully you can still continue discussions here

Jingthing sent me a news item from Bangkok Post, but I will let him post it himself so he can add his view points to it.

cheers everyone

I'm not sure of their innocence. After all, there was a push to allow democratic elections. And we all know who won those elections in Gaza; Hamas. If the people of a territory choose to express their solidarity with a known terrorist organisation, where is their innocence?

It's a matter of perspective.

As far as I am concerned I believe that they choose to support an organization that devotes most of its money on developping social programmes (hospitals, education systems, libraries, soup kitchens, sports leagues, etc.). Hamas is also famous among many Palestians for not being corrupted.

adjan, Since you happily admit to being an anarchist, it might help folks to know that when reading your opinions. Don't want to confuse anyone about where you are coming from.

Salaam 'Alaykum.

Thanks to the mods for re-opening this explosive thread, even if it's now in the "adult section".

Eugene, no matter my political opinions. What I said make sense. A lot of Palestinians don't view Hamas as a terrorist organization but as a benevolent group defending their interests and working hard for the development of their country and its people.

حمى الله ش

I'm sure that it makes sense to an anarchist, but the rest of us realize that many evil groups also do good works to disguise their true agendas. Criminal Motorcycle Gangs all over the world hold charitible events to curry favor with the public while secretly indulging in serious crimes like murder for hire, selling speed, crack and heroin and selling unwilling human slaves. Would you say that they are good guys?

Hamas has done some helpful things for Palestinians, but Hamas' central charter calls for the violent overthrow of Israel and Hamas intentionally targets and kills innocent civilians on a regular basis.

According to the Canadian Government, "A terrorist is a man who murders indiscriminately, distinguishing neither between civilian and innocent and guilty nor soldier and civilian", and that describes Hamas to a T - for Terrorism.

If you look in a dictionary under "terrorist", there is a good chance that it will be illustrated with a picure of someone in Hamas. That is what they are.

I'm sure that it makes sense to an anarchist,

No, no, no. It makes sense to someone who always tries to understand other people's points of view. A long time ago Sun Tzu taught how important it is to know our enemies.

I understand Charles Manson's point of view, but he is still a mass murderer.

I understand Charles Manson's point of view

Now you're scary

As far as I am concerned I've never understood this guy. Even under the influence of LSD