Opposition Warns PM Over Land Reform Plan

[Gravelrash]

The Opposition yesterday warned the Democrat-led government that history may repeat itself after Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva announced plans to continue the Sor Por Kor 4-01, or agricultural land reform programme, that caused widespread corruption and brought down the Chuan government in May 1995.

Abhisit said the government would use the lessons learnt during the Chuan government to prevent the same problems from recurring. He urged government critics not to be too pessimistic against the programme, saying the government wanted to solve the land problem for the poor by setting up the right system.

He added that other land reform projects are more corruption-prone than the Sor Por Kor.

"I am confident that the same problems will not be repeated. The problems happened because of misunderstanding over criteria in allocating land. But now we have court verdicts that can be used as a norm. Whoever is out of these criteria will be wrong,'' he said.

The programme, intended to provide land documents to poor farmers, ended up benefiting wealthy families and businessmen, many with links to members of the Democrat Party.

After obtaining rights to some of the land, the rich developed it into resort properties instead of using it for agricultural purposes as intended.

Pheu Thai Party spokesman Prompong Nopparit said he was tipped off that politicians in the government had nominees or representatives held possession of thousands of rai of land in the four southern provinces on the Andaman Sea, including Krabi, Phang Nga, Phuket and Surat Thani.

He said the party had already prepared information to grill the government on the floor of the House.

"I hope the Sor-Por Kor was a nightmare only for the Chuan government and history will not repeat itself for the Abhisit government,'' he said.

Abhisit denied that the Democrat Party had a deal with the Friends of Newin group to continue with the land-reform programme in return for allowing the Transport Ministry, under the control of the Newin group, to operate the 4,000 NGV buses project and the Dust Free Roads projects.

Abhisit said he had talked to the Friends of Newin group about the continuation of the Sor Por Kor programme and believed the group would not put any pressure on the government.

The Newin group recently gave media interviews expressing frustration and disappointment that two of its projects may be stalled by the government.

Abhisit said the Transport Ministry is reviewing the NGV buses project after there had been calls to assemble the buses domestically.

He denied conflicts over the Dust Free Road project, saying the government would support the project because it was a good project that can stimulate the economy. However if the Finance Ministry can find funds to finance the project, the project can be run this year, otherwise it can be operated by using next year's fiscal budget.

Newin Chidchob, a leader of the Friends of Newin group, took a leading role to expose corruption in the Sor Por Kor 4-01 land reform programme.

He was a member of the Group of 16 that successfully undermined the credibility of the government and embarrassed then agriculture minister Suthep Thaugsuban. The Palang Dharma, a coalition party, pulled out of the government, forcing Chuan to dissolve the House and call a snap election.

The Nation

[Jai Dee]

Controversial land plan reborn

Fifteen years ago, then the Democrat-led government was forced to dissolve the House after it was humiliated by the Opposition in the parliament over abuses of power in the sor por kor 4-01 land scheme. Today, it wants to resurrect the same programme. The spectre of the sor por kor 4-01 land reform scandal which toppled the Democrat-led government back in 1984 is returning to haunt the government of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva. This time around however the government appears determined to revive the controversial land reform programme and to recoup its bad name in association with the land reform scheme.

Deputy Interior Minister Thavorn Senniam of the Democrat party announced that the government would revive the sor por kor 4-01 land reform programme to allocate up to 16 million rai of land to landless people.

Immediately after the announcement, the opposition Puea Thai party said it would include the issue in its planned no-confidence debate against the government, in particular the Democrats. The party also claimed that certain members of the government had already occupied huge plots of land, as many as hundreds of thousands rai, in Surat Thani, Krabi, Phang-nga and Phuket provinces through their nomiees with the hope that they would be granted with the sor por kor 4-01 land certificates by the government.

More from the Bangkok Post here.

[samgrowth]

Mark the Robin Hood. Rob the land to give it to the rich.

As the saying goes "History repeats itself".

[LevelHead]

Disgusting isn't it.

Lets hope those blinded by the media spin against TRT/PPP can now see exactly that the "old powers" who have got together to attempt to kill Thaksin and the TRT/PPP are the ones now pulling the new governments strings.

To immediately try to do this land reform, which everyone knows leads to just a massive pile of corruption mostly, and what caused the Democrats to have to call a house dissolution last time, means that its likely "payback time".

They have to try to do it early in their governments life, so they can push as much through as possible before they get kicked out. This is why its being done so urgently in their new term.

Thanks for your help in getting rid of TRT/Thaksin, and now we are strong, and everyone appointed is on our side, lets all get our piggie snouts in the trough and feed and eat as much as we can.

Sod the people, they now have no vote, no power and no say.

Coalition feeding time to begin soon?? and there is nothing you "great unwashed" poor can do about it. Welcome to "new politics"...........LOL

Us old timers can remember that Thailand was more corrupt before Thaksin........and less so after. So if you must say about "how corrupt Thaksin was" then just imagine what it was like before that, and what it is likely to return to being again now..........perhaps. !!

[TAWP]

Less so after Thaksin? Seeing as he was gone, you would be correct...

Let's wait and see what happens. I doubt even the democrats would be so stupid as to try to pull the same thing again and again. That is Thaksins Achilles heel.

[brahmburgers]

it would help to understand the scenario if 'sor por kor' was described herein.

It sounds like a program to upgrade landowner status from lower type of (or no) title to a more secure form of title.

someone shed some light on this, thanks.

[Plus]

I don't see any details in this land program that warrant such a gloomy attitude. Just whining for the sake of whining.

[catwho]

goggle thailand land titles and explains all

[hammered]

There is nothing wrong with land reform per se. Redisttributing unused land to poor and securing land rights for poor is common in developing countries. Attempts to do so should be supported. However, the problem is in how it is done. If the Dems are revisiting this they need to make sure everything is open and that they dont make the mistakes of before.

In reality though as with all populist polices and this is one, there is a high chanc eof leakage. Lets not also forget that as the excellent old Ten Kate article in Asia Sentinel argued all the Thaksin schemes had high degrees of leakage and it was at this level that they became flawed and not in concept.

Can Abhisit and his awkward coalition learn from previous mistakes they have been involved in or will it all end up entirely predictable as before? Anyway the notion is good so it deserves initial support as did many of the Thaksin schemes when first announced.

[Plus]

goggle thailand land titles and explains all

I did, what it explains is that the whole scary story has no substance whatsoever.

>>>

I don't see any connection between fifteen years old land scandal and the new program, especially after Abhisit clearly said the govt is mindful of past mistakes.

[Old Man River]

Disgusting isn't it.

Lets hope those blinded by the media spin against TRT/PPP can now see exactly that the "old powers" who have got together to attempt to kill Thaksin and the TRT/PPP are the ones now pulling the new governments strings.

To immediately try to do this land reform, which everyone knows leads to just a massive pile of corruption mostly, and what caused the Democrats to have to call a house dissolution last time, means that its likely "payback time".

They have to try to do it early in their governments life, so they can push as much through as possible before they get kicked out. This is why its being done so urgently in their new term.

Thanks for your help in getting rid of TRT/Thaksin, and now we are strong, and everyone appointed is on our side, lets all get our piggie snouts in the trough and feed and eat as much as we can.

Sod the people, they now have no vote, no power and no say.

Coalition feeding time to begin soon?? and there is nothing you "great unwashed" poor can do about it. Welcome to "new politics"...........LOL

Us old timers can remember that Thailand was more corrupt before Thaksin........and less so after. So if you must say about "how corrupt Thaksin was" then just imagine what it was like before that, and what it is likely to return to being again now..........perhaps. !!

This is the craziest logic.

You cry for the poor to be helped and when the new government states in front of everyone that they intend to give land to poor farmers, you cry about that. If this government was seeking to steal land for its own, it would be putting things in place behind everyone's back, not publicly letting everyone know so it could be watched. They aren't hiding anything.

Actually, you are right about one thing. So far, this is new politics. A Thai government actually openly inviting people to be vigilant to its programs. I never thought I would see this.

[hammered]

Disgusting isn't it.

Lets hope those blinded by the media spin against TRT/PPP can now see exactly that the "old powers" who have got together to attempt to kill Thaksin and the TRT/PPP are the ones now pulling the new governments strings.

To immediately try to do this land reform, which everyone knows leads to just a massive pile of corruption mostly, and what caused the Democrats to have to call a house dissolution last time, means that its likely "payback time".

They have to try to do it early in their governments life, so they can push as much through as possible before they get kicked out. This is why its being done so urgently in their new term.

Thanks for your help in getting rid of TRT/Thaksin, and now we are strong, and everyone appointed is on our side, lets all get our piggie snouts in the trough and feed and eat as much as we can.

Sod the people, they now have no vote, no power and no say.

Coalition feeding time to begin soon?? and there is nothing you "great unwashed" poor can do about it. Welcome to "new politics"...........LOL

Us old timers can remember that Thailand was more corrupt before Thaksin........and less so after. So if you must say about "how corrupt Thaksin was" then just imagine what it was like before that, and what it is likely to return to being again now..........perhaps. !!

This is the craziest logic.

You cry for the poor to be helped and when the new government states in front of everyone that they intend to give land to poor farmers, you cry about that. If this government was seeking to steal land for its own, it would be putting things in place behind everyone's back, not publicly letting everyone know so it could be watched. They aren't hiding anything.

Actually, you are right about one thing. So far, this is new politics. A Thai government actually openly inviting people to be vigilant to its programs. I never thought I would see this.

PTP and supporters are most peturbed that the Dems are going to steal their thunder as champions of the poor. With this policy they could very well. Some PTPites have even been arguing that Dems shouldnt be allowed to pursue populist policies becuse they are the intellectual property of Thaksin.

PTP should get its own house in order and function as an opposiiton party and as a check on government. Right now they cant even choose a leader and so have already missed an opportunity for their leader to have state airtime as promised by Abhisit. They have also not even set up the shadow cabinet to monitor government performance.

I make you right about this government trying to be open, which is just as well if the opposition party is incapable of doing its job.

[clausewitz]

it would help to understand the scenario if 'sor por kor' was described herein.

It sounds like a program to upgrade landowner status from lower type of (or no) title to a more secure form of title.

someone shed some light on this, thanks.

the last time round that the democrats enacted this 'reform' they got in big trouble when it was revealed that the biggest benefactors happened to be wealthy Democrats.

You see it is all very well to say you are giving land to the poor, but a different matter when you use your power to give it to your cronies.

[LevelHead]

The present Deputy PM Suthep was very much involed the last time around in this process.

http://siamreport.blogspot.com/2008/12/nam...uly-7-1949.html

"• During the first Chuan Leekpai Democrat-lead government (1995), the opposition launched a House debate accusing Democrat leaders of corruption in the Sor Por Kor 4-01 land reform scheme in Phuket—Suthep was the architect of this scheme. The debate was initiated by former leader of the Chart Thai party, Banharn Silpa-archa, with MP Newin Chidchob playing a leading role. Suthep was the main target during the opposition's Sor Por Kor attack.

The debate discredited the Democrat-led government, leading PM Chuan to dissolve the House and call for fresh elections. In the general election that followed (1995), Chart Thai won 92 of the 391 seats (Democrats won 86 seats), and formed the next government with Banharn as PM. Newin rose to deputy finance minister in Banharn’s cabinet, but was later removed in a cabinet reshuffle. As for Suthep, he was never found guilty by the courts, but the issue has dogged him politically ever since. (Note: Chart Thai was dissolved in 2008, and Banharn was banned from politics for five years. Chart Thai was renamed Chart Thai Pattana—the new party joined the Democrats to form a new government in December 2008)."

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-78700817.html

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-77155058.html

--------------

The problem was instead of most of the land going to poor people for them, it was given to poor people who were nominee's of rich people.

Allegedly, the poor people took the land, got paid a few thousand baht for doing that process and promptly handed the land over to the behind the scenes rich people who put the poor peoples names forward and made sure they got the land.

This is why its said the system was so corrupt, not vote buying, but poor people buying, pay them a few thousand to register on the understanding they sign the land over to the rich for nothing afterwards.

This then "legally" puts lots of land into the hands of rich people..........a nice little scam.

Would it not be better, to quite simply keep the land under the control of the national government, and not any individual, and then "rent it" for a nominal 1 baht per rai fee, but it must only be used for agriculture.

This would prevent all those rich gits stealing it from the poor to build on.

If the aim of the scheme is to help the poor grow food..........fine, rent it out, 1 baht per rai, and the land must be used for agriculture only.

If the aim of the scheme is to allow rich people to get hold of land deeds and build on them.......then start dishing out lots of land owner certificates.

Wonder which way things will go....... LOL

[Crushdepth]

Big mistake...they'll never pull this off in a fair and transparent manner. It's a non-accident waiting to happen, exactly the sort of temptation that a wannabe 'clean' government should avoid.

[samgrowth]

The problem was instead of most of the land going to poor people for them, it was given to poor people who were nominee's of rich people.

Allegedly, the poor people took the land, got paid a few thousand baht for doing that process and promptly handed the land over to the behind the scenes rich people who put the poor peoples names forward and made sure they got the land.

So Thaksin is poor, but his son has billions frozen. Does that mean that Thaksin son's is Thaksin nominee?

[Pierrot]

This would prevent all those rich gits stealing it from the poor to build on.

If the aim of the scheme is to help the poor grow food..........fine, rent it out, 1 baht per rai, and the land must be used for agriculture only.

The problem is you can't use the land as collateral, to buy a tractor for example. It's not a simple problem, this system of land titles is really holding poor farmers back. But it's true that people who are mostly going to benefit from this measure are wealthy democrat supporters.

[Plus]

But it's true that people who are mostly going to benefit from this measure are wealthy democrat supporters.

They don't have many of those outside of the South which is really a small strip of land comparing to the rest of the country.

Who will benefit there? The poor? Poor Democrat supporters?

How do you know "it's true" anyway?

[Pierrot]

But it's true that people who are mostly going to benefit from this measure are wealthy democrat supporters.

They don't have many of those outside of the South which is really a small strip of land comparing to the rest of the country.

Who will benefit there? The poor? Poor Democrat supporters?

How do you know "it's true" anyway?

Sorry, I don't really understand you. What you're saying is there aren't many democrats "outside of the South which is really a small strip of land comparing to the rest of the country."? Thank you for at last admitting it.

Poor democrat. What's that ? There was the loch Ness monster, big foot and now we can add the "poor democrat" to the list of creature people are talking about but nobody's ever seen ?

More seriously, what's going to happen? These lands that was worth nothing, are now very "hot". Farmers are going to send their land for a "large" profit (very relative), it's going to be party time for one year or two, and then they will have nothing, no money, no land. A long term problem is so far, during crisis, Thai people always had the option to go back to the family piece of land. Next time, what's going to happen ?

On the other hand, I find very ironic that people who used to call Thaksin schemes to help poor villagers pearls before swine are now so enthusiastic with this new project. Or maybe it's not really the poor villagers' benefit they have in mind.

Edited January 19, 2009 by Pierrot

[Gravelrash]

Regardless of the PMs intention, I doubt he would be able to stop the stampede to cash in on this one. There again why even resurrect it?

Even better, they know how they got caught out last time, and will be more careful. It astounds me that there are those that can't see this for what it is, no doubt the occasional farmer will get some land for the headlines, but let's see where the bulk ends up. Seems like there may be another resort building boom coming, but like, that has to be good for the economy right?

[samgrowth]

The problem is you can't use the land as collateral, to buy a tractor for example. It's not a simple problem, this system of land titles is really holding poor farmers back. But it's true that people who are mostly going to benefit from this measure are wealthy democrat supporters.

Poor famers cannot get loan from banks. They get loans from greedy Chinese money lenders who gladly take what ever land they can lay their hands of. That is part of the reason where there are so many who claims that they have no land left (after it was taken by the greedy Chinese money lenders), and what did they do? They went further and further into the jungle and open it up more and more vigins (land).

[Pierrot]

The problem is you can't use the land as collateral, to buy a tractor for example. It's not a simple problem, this system of land titles is really holding poor farmers back. But it's true that people who are mostly going to benefit from this measure are wealthy democrat supporters.

Poor famers cannot get loan from banks. They get loans from greedy Chinese money lenders who gladly take what ever land they can lay their hands of. That is part of the reason where there are so many who claims that they have no land left (after it was taken by the greedy Chinese money lenders), and what did they do? They went further and further into the jungle and open it up more and more vigins (land).

You're so right ! By the way, I just got hold of a stock of yellow stars, original stuff from Europe, from the late 30's. Honestly, with you, we can make a killing here.

[Plus]

Poor democrat. What's that ?

Comparing to TRT they are paupers.

[plachon]

Here's my take on this story, which from what I can see is essentially a deal between the Dems and Friends of Newin. That means the principle benefits will fall to Northeasterners and especially the tens of thousands with land in ALRO (or Sor Por Kor) areas. This could be rich, middle income and poor alike, who could benefit from more secure title. Under Toxin's plans, he liberalised the trading of ALRO land titles (Assets for Cash project) and many of the titles ended up in the hands of non-poor, including many business people and politicians and families. This was because the poor sunk deeper into debt under Toxin and had to use these documents as collateral.

Strictly speaking they are non-transferable to any one outside the holder's immediate heir or family. In reality, they are sitting in the safes and under the mattresses of the middle class and wealthy (as well as some poor), and those people would love to upgrade them to a full title to buy/sell or use as collateral for their own loans. At the moment, they are essentially unrealised and wasted assets to the wealthy who really could turn them into wealth via a bank (although they may have planted some fast maturing pulp trees such as eucalyptus on them good for a harvest or two).

Hence, if Abhisit thinks he is helping the poor here, he may very well end up helping the rich. I don't think he has the personal spine to stand up to the greed and avarice of the Friends of Newin faction who are chips off the old Toxic block. Anyone recall the major land scams the Group 16 participated in with the help of the Bangkok Bank of Commerce and the rascal Saxena et al? So, in this case I support the Opposition to do their job in watching carefully what happens over this one and being ready to blow the whistle when the snouts hit the trough(even if it is motivated by jealousy for not holding the reigns of power).

Having said that, ALRO scheme has failed miserably since inception to redistribute land to the poor, so it may be as well accept that this land should just go into general circulation on the normal land market, instead of continuing the pretence that in a society like Thailand, the poor will inherit the earth (or land). It just ain't gonna happen in the foreseeable future, no matter how much some might like a real grassroots revolution to occur.

[Seneque]

One way to avoid land grabing would probably be to make sure the title deed owner (a farmer i presume) not being able to transfer and/or sell the land for 10 years ... or even 20 years ... but still being able to use the land as collateral ... This would probably hamper the greed from well to do families to use nominees as they won't be able to transfer the land for a long time ...

Land distribution (re-allocation) is a basically sound policy.

[samgrowth]

One way to avoid land grabing would probably be to make sure the title deed owner (a farmer i presume) not being able to transfer and/or sell the land for 10 years ... or even 20 years ... but still being able to use the land as collateral ... This would probably hamper the greed from well to do families to use nominees as they won't be able to transfer the land for a long time ...

Land distribution (re-allocation) is a basically sound policy.

One way or the other, some poor farmers will off-load the land through some form of arrangement to greedy investors / money lenders / land brokers. The longer the non-transfer period, the lesser will the poor farmers get.

And what is stopping norminee to get their hand on free land. Many people will sell their ID card for, say a motocycle. The village heads (puu yai ban) usually acts as a broker, and get a small cut in between. On behalf of the investors (many have connection to local politician), puu yai ban are also the one to request for infrastructue to be build. The projects will be approved by the local politician, who in turned get a cut from the investors.

[ballpoint]

One way to avoid land grabing would probably be to make sure the title deed owner (a farmer i presume) not being able to transfer and/or sell the land for 10 years ... or even 20 years ... but still being able to use the land as collateral ... This would probably hamper the greed from well to do families to use nominees as they won't be able to transfer the land for a long time ...

Land distribution (re-allocation) is a basically sound policy.

Who would be willing to lend if the collateral can't be transferred to them if the loan is defaulted on?

[samgrowth]

One way to avoid land grabing would probably be to make sure the title deed owner (a farmer i presume) not being able to transfer and/or sell the land for 10 years ... or even 20 years ... but still being able to use the land as collateral ... This would probably hamper the greed from well to do families to use nominees as they won't be able to transfer the land for a long time ...

Land distribution (re-allocation) is a basically sound policy.

Who would be willing to lend if the collateral can't be transferred to them if the loan is defaulted on?

There are plenty of loan sharks out there hunting for prey. They will take anything, including deed, contract, agreements, gold, silver, amluet, fingers, daughter, son and even wife. And all these is just to cover the 20% per month interest. This is real. There is a forum in ThaiVisa that discuss about this 20% per month interest in Thailand, even though by law, government only legally allow 18% PER YEAR.

[Hawaiian]

One way to avoid land grabing would probably be to make sure the title deed owner (a farmer i presume) not being able to transfer and/or sell the land for 10 years ... or even 20 years ... but still being able to use the land as collateral ... This would probably hamper the greed from well to do families to use nominees as they won't be able to transfer the land for a long time ...

Land distribution (re-allocation) is a basically sound policy.

If done properly it can be a workable solution for poor landless farmers. Stipulate that any land transfers within a certain time

frame would have to be back to the government to be resold to another qualifying farmer. This could be coupled with a

government financed ag loan program. Any defaults and the land would go back into the pool to be resold. Again to a qualifying farmer. These programs can work if the proper safeguards are in place and total transparency exists. Thailand must look at what has worked in other countries and stop thinking she has all the answers.

[Old Man River]

Poor famers cannot get loan from banks. They get loans from greedy Chinese money lenders who gladly take what ever land they can lay their hands of. That is part of the reason where there are so many who claims that they have no land left (after it was taken by the greedy Chinese money lenders), and what did they do? They went further and further into the jungle and open it up more and more vigins (land).

If poor farmers can't get loans from banks, as you say, then why are so many poor farmers calling for their bank loans to be forgiven?