Financial Crisis

[AlexLah]

SBC, you are missing the point.

It is exactly what they wanted to happen and they knew when they signed it.

[lannarebirth]

That is a long read which I will do tommorow but basically the guy says it is all about cycles right?

It partly describes what got us into this current mess and what happened during and before previous messes.

I find it also a bit strange that on the frontpage it says August November 2007 and when you look at the properties of the document it is clearly written or at least last edited in Feb 2009. Describing events afterwards is an easy thing to do, the fun part is when you can describe things that are to happen soon.

Nevertheless an interesting read and thanks for posting the link.

Now when you say that there is no plan you are a bit contradicting your own posts that said that Goldman repacked these rotten cans of fish and stamped premium on them and then betted against those same instruments. Sounds like a plan to me. Same with the peeps in congress that voted in favour of some regulation or non regulation that allowed those risky financial instruments to be made. Same with those bail outs and stimulus "Plan" it ain"t gonna work and it has not worked so far. And same when the US abandoned the gold standard in the 70's

You can skip the latter 2/3rds Alex. That's the usual evil Federal Reserve blah, blah. It's the credit expansion that is the salient material.

I don't consider those "plans" per se. Those are just organizations working in their own self interest. I would question if all of its legal, but that's just typical Wall Street. They're all crooks. Always have been.

[AlexLah]

Indeed they are crooks and when I look at people saying they will not go out of the market because they not want to accept a 50% loss, I ask if they will be more happy accepting an 80% loss. I am out accepting an 18% loss so far and will be buying again when there is a clear bottom.

[samuibeachcomber]

SBC, you are missing the point.

It is exactly what they wanted to happen and they knew when they signed it.

ok but the article did say they got it through congress when a lot senators were n't sitting and some that were did voice concerns,i dont think the whole all US senators are/were in on it.

and look how the 1st world war began a year later,enabling them to finance war production and a lend lease situation that finally broke great britain.

[Chaimai]

Indeed they are crooks and when I look at people saying they will not go out of the market because they not want to accept a 50% loss, I ask if they will be more happy accepting an 80% loss. I am out accepting an 18% loss so far and will be buying again when there is a clear bottom.

"Clear bottoms" ? Then we have the herd instinct/lemming principle applying and every man and his dog will charge back in.

I believe that bottoms are created by people - they don't just happen.

Naturally, I would like to think that this is a good point to start picking up selective stock.

[AlexLah]

O gosh, you know one day I will make a big post here so that you can see all the links, it goes back as early as 1200, yes.

[samuibeachcomber]

O gosh, you know one day I will make a big post here so that you can see all the links, it goes back as early as 1200, yes.

i'd rather stay with the here and now alex,and work out the sequence of events to come,there's a lot of people that still think this is just an extra hard recession/depression that we are seeing(maybe in hope)and dont appreciate or want to see where it is all really heading.

[AlexLah]

SBC, I fully understand you want to know about current situation. But in order to see "The Plan" you need to spend a litlle more time reading history.

[Chaimai]

O gosh, you know one day I will make a big post here so that you can see all the links, it goes back as early as 1200, yes.

i'd rather stay with the here and now alex,and work out the sequence of events to come,there's a lot of people that still think this is just an extra hard recession/depression that we are seeing(maybe in hope)and dont appreciate or want to see where it is all really heading.

Yep, count me in for that one. If we haven't been there before how can you possibly see where we are heading.

So far, it isn't as hard as the last recession so let's use that as the starting point.

[Naam]

Quote: That's bullshit. There is no "Plan"

Lana, we will see, so far I have been right when I mentioned Feb 9 and no I am not trying to be arrogant, I just look differently at events and I do see some kind of pattern. A lot of thing's that I said would happen did actually happen. E.g, the taking over of banks, 7 ate 9 and some others.

Let's keep an open mind, stranger things have happened before.....

You are here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it, it is like a whisper, you hear it, but you do not know where it is coming from. You have felt it your entire life, that there is something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad.

i am glad to be an uneducated dummy who never felt that there is something wrong with the world as far as i am concerned. strange yes, wrong for a lot of people but not for me. selfish thinking from my side? indeed! but it makes no sense that i worry about additional 6.8 billion of people.

[AlexLah]

And that is the whole problem Naam, there are too many people that think the same like you.

They do not care about others, only think about themselves.

It are people with such mindset that got us into this mess.

Do you understand the meaning of the word: Compassion?

No pun intended.

Edited March 4, 2009 by AlexLah

[midas]

And that is the whole problem Naam, there are too many people that think the same like you.

They do not care about others, only think about themselves.

It are people with such mindset that got us into this mess.

Do you understand the meaning of the word: Compassion?

No pun intended.

I am open-minded enough to consider anything is possible because there are indeed

some very evil people in this world.

Its startling to see so many on this and other threads that are still referring to this as a recession

and still using graphs as some vain attempt to explain when we can expect to go back to " normal "

When the world experienced such a severe economic downturn last time, I don't believe it was simultaneously

facing so many dangers from " forces " that can't be addressed simply by injections

of more dollars by world governments or the IMF?

For a start, in 1930 we didn't have anything like the scale of weapons of mass destruction

and if we did, they were owned and controlled by armies. Now we have the danger of unparalleled

empowerment of individuals.

How can we possibly know how close or how easy it would be for Pakistani fundamentalists to get their hands

on just one of those nuclear missiles now or in the immediate future? Pakistan is already a failed state.

And if they detonated just one " dirty bomb " somewhere in the world-then you'll see

the real meaning of market meltdown.

Look at what is happening in Mexico- an entire country plunged into effective anarchy with

one senior law-enforcement after another resigning every week.

I feel very pleased to be able to think outside the box because when things do breakdown

as they must do eventually-at least I will be more mentally prepared than those who

continue to live in denial.

[Naam]

And that is the whole problem Naam, there are too many people that think the same like you. They do not care about others, only think about themselves. It are people with such mindset that got us into this mess.

no Alex, the problem is with people like you who consider themselves passionate, use big words but lack action. once you have paid for living cost and schooling of 17 young orphans over a period of 26 years, as my wife and i did (again this summer 2 will graduate and the number will increase to 19) you are allowed to come back and accuse me of not being compassionate.

thanks for not believing me

[samuibeachcomber]

what we have here in particular are politicians in both the USA UK,who were complicit in this financial scam,hence the bailout/throwing money they have printed/backed by nothing,at these banks,who in america at least control the FED that is nothing more than a printing press.

I see this in the first instance as a massive decline of both these old superpowers,the consquences of which for its citizens are yet to be realised(hence the FEEMA camps in the USA now coming into operation)but probably riots,member states trying to untangle itself away from US govt.control,other states lining up with the central govt. because they are bankrupt and need govt. bailouts themselves(another alignment like during their civil war.)

Europe has been more prudent(re banking)with the exception of their exposure to east european countries,which could lead to europe also going the same way as the USA and UK.

That leaves asia..........and i have no idea what will happen here.I cant really see china being unscathed,cos who are they going to sell to,i dont think there are enough chinese who have money to support a domestic resurgence,unless their govt. can convince the midle classes there to take out loans and go into debt to support the domestic economy.

Now throw in the taliban/middle east,pakistan/india as a melting pot.its possible Obama may get a so called peace settlement between israel/palestinians,but it will be paper thin and cracks will soon appear(a peace in our time on paper only.)

Will Israel finally do the deed against iran?

Will the USA create a fictitious conflict to get the war machine and economy going again,quite possible.

Throw into the mix global warming(ice caps melting at an alarming rate),more natural disasters.

more drought in food producing areas creating more famine.

And all this occuring simultaniously in a 5-10 year window span does not make for a pretty time so enjoy it while you can.

And remember millions of poor people around the world have always lived with the "above monolgue."

As baby boomers from the west,we have lived a priveledged life,no world war,no famines,always had full employment,always been able to travel and find work.We have never known what it must be like to hav no money,no food and no shelter................maybe we are about to experience these things too.How well will we be able to cope,by comparison to the rest we have lived a rich full life,never knowing real hardship,and probably will be least able to cope and adjust.

[midas]

what we have here in particular are politicians in both the USA UK,who were complicit in this financial scam,hence the bailout/throwing money they have printed/backed by nothing,at these banks,who in america at least control the FED that is nothing more than a printing press.

And we know who controls the FED - but we don't know how their minds work

I see this in the first instance as a massive decline of both these old superpowers,the consquences of which for its citizens are yet to be realised(hence the FEEMA camps in the USA now coming into operation)but probably riots,member states trying to untangle itself away from US govt.control,other states lining up with the central govt. because they are bankrupt and need govt. bailouts themselves(another alignment like during their civil war.)

The days of superpowers are almost over and the days of militia groups and armed gangs is getting closer

Now throw in the taliban/middle east,pakistan/india as a melting pot.its possible Obama may get a so called peace settlement between israel/palestinians,but it will be paper thin and cracks will soon appear(a peace in our time on paper only.)

If you believe that you believe in the tooth fairy- actions speak louder than words

Will Israel finally do the deed against iran?

It could have more to lose by not doing so than it does by sitting back and waiting

As baby boomers from the west,we have lived a priveledged life,no world war,no famines,always had full employment,always been able to travel and find work.We have never known what it must be like to hav no money,no food and no shelter................maybe we are about to experience these things too.How well will we be able to cope,by comparison to the rest we have lived a rich full life,never knowing real hardship,and probably will be least able to cope and adjust.

Be prepared for the breakdown of essential services- and yes may be even this Internet

[Naam]

I feel very pleased to be able to think outside the box because when things do breakdown as they must do eventually-at least I will be more mentally prepared than those who continue to live in denial.

but all your mental preparation will not elevate you to a different level Midas. besides mental preparation there is not much what you can do anyway.

sidenote: actually i admire people who "continue to live in denial" for their mental abilities to do just that. it's a gift not everybody has. bottom line is they will (unlike you) have enjoyed the time till "things do break down" not "WHEN" but "IF". at the same time i pity people like you who are worrying about things which are completely out of their control and influence. on the other hand... to each his own. let masochists have their fun. they have my blessings

[samuibeachcomber]

I feel very pleased to be able to think outside the box because when things do breakdown as they must do eventually-at least I will be more mentally prepared than those who continue to live in denial.

but all your mental preparation will not elevate you to a different level Midas. besides mental preparation there is not much what you can do anyway.

sidenote: actually i admire people who "continue to live in denial" for their mental abilities to do just that. it's a gift not everybody has. bottom line is they will (unlike you) have enjoyed the time till "things do break down" not "WHEN" but "IF". at the same time i pity people like you who are worrying about things which are completely out of their control and influence. on the other hand... to each his own. let masochists have their fun. they have my blessings

boy scouts motto "be prepared"

[samuibeachcomber]

Midas dont underestimate the possibility of a peace settlement in the mid east.I did say it would be a veneer and the paper cracks would appear soon after.

[samuibeachcomber]

and naam,often ignorance is bliss,and just because some are aware of the possibilities i mentioned does n't mean we're not enjoying life, and having a good time,its good to be on your guard,just like when you go riding on your bike or walk down the street,be aware of accidents that can happen around you to keep as safe as possible.

[flying]

I feel very pleased to be able to think outside the box because when things do breakdown as they must do eventually-at least I will be more mentally prepared than those who continue to live in denial.

but all your mental preparation will not elevate you to a different level Midas. besides mental preparation there is not much what you can do anyway.

I do not agree....... I believe there is a little or a lot we can do to prepare for various scenarios.

If things go bad or I should say really bad....Then it is up to the individuals for a large part of how you continue. I am not saying a full breakdown of society but even a general disorder will require individual preparedness to take care of ones self.

I know in my own way I have been moving towards that more & more.

I think it was LB? ...not sure ...that posted in this or another thread just today or yesterday saying how in reality the world has been broken for some time & we now are starting to see the results. I agree with that.

[midas]

I feel very pleased to be able to think outside the box because when things do breakdown as they must do eventually-at least I will be more mentally prepared than those who continue to live in denial.

but all your mental preparation will not elevate you to a different level Midas. besides mental preparation there is not much what you can do anyway.

sidenote: actually i admire people who "continue to live in denial" for their mental abilities to do just that. it's a gift not everybody has. bottom line is they will (unlike you) have enjoyed the time till "things do break down" not "WHEN" but "IF". at the same time i pity people like you who are worrying about things which are completely out of their control and influence. on the other hand... to each his own. let masochists have their fun. they have my blessings

Naam who said anything about expecting or needing to be " elevated " to a different level ?

And what that is wrong with discussing worst-case scenarios-it is what survivors

of some of the most challenging human incidents have said helped each of them through their ordeal.

I'm enjoying my time immensely-because it's stimulating to exchange ideas

and thoughts with open-minded people on this Internet and to keep asking questions.

And Naam you cannot possibly judge whether my happiness factor is any more or less than you just because

I spend time posting these thoughts in this thread because you also spend considerable

time doing the same thing. But whilst you are very good at

criticising and nitpicking other people's postings, I am still waiting to read a really thought-provoking contribution

about these matters from you.

Edited March 4, 2009 by midas

[Naam]

I feel very pleased to be able to think outside the box because when things do breakdown as they must do eventually-at least I will be more mentally prepared than those who continue to live in denial.

but all your mental preparation will not elevate you to a different level Midas. besides mental preparation there is not much what you can do anyway.

I do not agree....... I believe there is a little or a lot we can do to prepare for various scenarios.

my posting was meant in a different way. there is nothing anyone of us can do to prevent that nuclear technology in Pakistan falls into wrong hands and none of us is able to change the situation in Mexico. sorry for not being clear. as for other measures "we" is the wrong personal pronoun. a lot of "us" do not have the means to "prepare for different scenarios". you can only speak for yourself. and when the last gold ingot is spent and the last bullet fired those who owned gold and ammunition have to fight with teeth and claws IF it should be required.

the latter of course does not apply to Khun Jean and the like who will have bought with a fistful of Krügerrands and Maple Leaves all available bakeries, butcheries, rice fields and you name it

[midas]

Midas dont underestimate the possibility of a peace settlement in the mid east.I did say it would be a veneer and the paper cracks would appear soon after.

samui I know what you're saying but does it mean anything at the end of the day ?

On BBC World this morning it showed a Palestinian guy holding his land title deed to his home

from the 1920's proving his ownership but which the Israelis are now intending

to demolish because it doesn't have planning consent. This is just bull**it and in the background

rockets were still being launched from Gazza.

[Naam]

I am still waiting to read a really thought-provoking contribution about these matters from you.

for thought provoking contributions we have AlexLah. i don't want to interfere in his business because he is doing a good job except provoking any thoughts in my grey cells.

besides, your postings are not provoking any thoughts, to me they sound like desperate lamenting without presenting solutions for what are right now imaginary -although possible- problems in the future. your mental preparation is no advice, tell us what you have actually done to meet the apocalyptic riders of which you are sure they will eventually be galloping.

[midas]

I am still waiting to read a really thought-provoking contribution about these matters from you.

for thought provoking contributions we have AlexLah. i don't want to interfere in his business because he is doing a good job except provoking any thoughts in my grey cells.

besides, your postings are not provoking any thoughts, to me they sound like desperate lamenting without presenting solutions for what are right now imaginary -although possible- problems in the future. your mental preparation is no advice, tell us what you have actually done to meet the apocalyptic riders of which you are sure they will eventually be galloping.

I have never professed and I never would profess to have the solutions because that would need all of us to change our

way of thinking dramatically.

Nothing I have posted has been written in the form of advice-it is simply expressing my opinion as I think many others

have done the same.

What you said in Post #880 - "who never felt that there is something wrong with the world as far as i am concerned " distinguishes you

so very much from many others in this thread.

[AlexLah]

Some more clarity.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7136361a-080c-11...?nclick_check=1

[flying]

my posting was meant in a different way. there is nothing anyone of us can do to prevent that nuclear technology in Pakistan falls into wrong hands and none of us is able to change the situation in Mexico. sorry for not being clear. as for other measures "we" is the wrong personal pronoun. a lot of "us" do not have the means to "prepare for different scenarios". you can only speak for yourself. and when the last gold ingot is spent and the last bullet fired those who owned gold and ammunition have to fight with teeth and claws IF it should be required.

the latter of course does not apply to Khun Jean and the like who will have bought with a fistful of Krügerrands and Maple Leaves all available bakeries, butcheries, rice fields and you name it

I see & I agree that for things as you describe with Pakistan or any Nuke threat there is not much to be done.

As for the *we* I again disagree ( respectfully ) I believe everyone of any means can n fact prepare in their own way. As for gold/silver I see it as money whether or not it gets used as such is not that important to me.

As for last bullet fired I am really amazed at what some folks have amassed in ammo alone.

Then there is this............

November 2008: 1,529,635

December 2008: 1,523,426

January 2009: 1,213,885

What is this data? Number of firearms sold in the last 100 days

I have also read & do not know if it is possible but the Federal registrar now shows that there are more guns in the hands of American citizens than the rest of the world combined. Is that possible?

I always knew there were many I always think 80 million but I guess that has risen quite a bit now.

I do see what you mean though. I am fortunate to be traveling right now & specifically looking at alternatives.....Although I think my place is very well suited I still look.

Edited March 4, 2009 by flying

[Naam]

1. I have never professed and I never would profess to have the solutions because that would need all of us to change our way of thinking dramatically.

Nothing I have posted has been written in the form of advice-it is simply expressing my opinion as I think many others have done the same.

2. What you said in Post #880 - "who never felt that there is something wrong with the world as far as i am concerned " distinguishes you

so very much from many others in this thread.

1. i agree but we have heard negative opinions from different sides in the meantime ad nauseam and repeating them does not make them necessarily come true. i also agree that too much optimism is not warranted because the news which are presented by the media on a daily basis are extremely bad, in fact the trend is from bad to worse. the reason why i am against too much pessimism are stated hereafter:

2. there are a lot of things which distinguish me from many others, not only in this thread. one is that never look back at rough times (through which i went not once but dozens of times) thinking "IF ONLY!". although i am not an optimist i abhor extreme pessimism especially when combined with resignation. my view is that success in life is based on prevailing circumstances, luck, hard work and being convinced "yes i can do it" even when overwhelming problems are threatening. moreover, my background (physics and engineering) always meant dealing with facts but also calculated risks based on rational conclusions. the various gloom&doom scenarios are in my view not based on rational conclusions. although it is a fact that i might die tonight, tomorrow or in a week i don't take this fact into consideration except for the usual preparations establishing certain protective measures for loved ones.

presently we are still not dealing with calculable facts which might turn the world as we know it upside down. arguments "there will be a war" i consider as silly and that goes for others too like warlords will divide the planet and rule their fiefdoms, utter lawlessness will prevail and nothing except the "real thing" will have any value.

and yes! i never felt that there is something wrong with the world as far as i am personally concerned. the simple reason is that at any stage in my life i looked back to where i came from, compared my status with that of my peers and concluded "there's nothing wrong with this world, it has treated me well".

[Naam]

my posting was meant in a different way. there is nothing anyone of us can do to prevent that nuclear technology in Pakistan falls into wrong hands and none of us is able to change the situation in Mexico. sorry for not being clear. as for other measures "we" is the wrong personal pronoun. a lot of "us" do not have the means to "prepare for different scenarios". you can only speak for yourself. and when the last gold ingot is spent and the last bullet fired those who owned gold and ammunition have to fight with teeth and claws IF it should be required.

I see & I agree that for things as you describe with Pakistan or any Nuke threat there is not much to be done. As for the *we* I again disagree ( respectfully ) I believe everyone of any means can n fact prepare in their own way.

there is an old american acquaintance of mine living in the south. he was one of my lecturers when i did some time at MIT Boston, Mass. at age 76 he is drawing a pension an social insurance totalling ~2,200 dollars which he spends all (partly because of high medical cost). three divorces and three exes left him with nothing else. another case in Pattaya is worse. german, drawing 835 EURos social insurance, no savings, acting as taxidriver whenever there is an opportunity. what would be "their means to prepare in their own way"?

[flying]

there is an old american acquaintance of mine living in the south. he was one of my lecturers when i did some time at MIT Boston, Mass. at age 76 he is drawing a pension an social insurance totalling ~2,200 dollars which he spends all (partly because of high medical cost). three divorces and three exes left him with nothing else. another case in Pattaya is worse. german, drawing 835 EURos social insurance, no savings, acting as taxidriver whenever there is an opportunity. what would be "their means to prepare in their own way"?

I could not say as I have no knowledge of what possible scenario they feel may be an issue for them.

I do understand by your post your saying that because these are folks are of limited $$$ means that they have no options.

yet I know folks of much more limited means who have & continue to prepare themselves for issues they feel may affect them. Of course there will be those that feel hopeless & will not do anything but say so.

If the fit hits the shan then they will be looking for govt cheese & a room at the fema hotels.

Hopefully there will not be such trying times ahead.