Working In The West From Thailand?

[eggomaniac]

If you had a 'legal' job in the West that can be completed remotely, by phone and/or internet could that work be done from Thailand and cover the monthly income requirment for a retirement or a Non0 visa?

The job would for work done in the West. The pay would be to a Westen bank account, and all income taxes would be paid to the Western country. There would be a 'record' of the 50,000Baht or 40,000Bhat per month income required for a Thai Visa.

It does not matter to the Western company where the work is being done from, just that it gets done.

Does it matter to Thai officials that the work is being done for the West from a location in Thailand? oR do they even have to know? It seems legal to me, but they might start 'scratching their heads' and wallets.

The work would be done in the West, just from Thailand.

[kiakaha]

Does it matter to Thai officials that the work is being done for the West from a location in Thailand

You are physically performing the work in Thailand , you need a work permit, otherwise you are breaking the law.

oR do they even have to know?

No, you can fly under the radar and break the law, but I wouldn't recommend it.

It seems legal to me

You are wrong.

The work would be done in the West, just from Thailand.

To be precise, the work is DONE in Thailand...you physically, your brain, your muscles all co-located in Thailand DO the work...the fact that the target of the outcome of the work is a remote location is irrelevant.

[asia_pilot]

Does it matter to Thai officials that the work is being done for the West from a location in Thailand

You are physically performing the work in Thailand , you need a work permit, otherwise you are breaking the law.

Sorry, but I am not so sure here. That would mean every tourist or business traveller, checking his company emails and replying to them would break the law since they do not have work permit.

[kiakaha]

Does it matter to Thai officials that the work is being done for the West from a location in Thailand

You are physically performing the work in Thailand , you need a work permit, otherwise you are breaking the law.

Sorry, but I am not so sure here. That would mean every tourist or business traveller, checking his company emails and replying to them would break the law since they do not have work permit.

The OP said he wished to base himself in Thailand and work from Thailand. He is not a temporary tourist checking his email or someone on a temporary business trip. His stated intent is to work from Thailand.

Furthermore, according to the Revenue Department rules, the OP would also become a tax resident in Thailand

I've had a work permit for more than a decade, I have a reasonable idea what I'm talking about.

[asia_pilot]

I've had a work permit for more than a decade, I have a reasonable idea what I'm talking about.

Wow, I understand you are a lawyer, or why are you so rude ?

Are you able to provide any laws or police orders for this ? I think more this is a 'greyzone'. Please read his post, he is working for a overseas company, which does not operate in Thailand.

Btw: I am flying for an Hong Kong based airline. This would mean, whenever we fly into Thailand I am braeaking the law, since I do not have a Thai work permit ?!

[OriginalPoster]

Does it matter to Thai officials that the work is being done for the West from a location in Thailand

You are physically performing the work in Thailand , you need a work permit, otherwise you are breaking the law.

Sorry, but I am not so sure here. That would mean every tourist or business traveller, checking his company emails and replying to them would break the law since they do not have work permit.

Must be a grey area somewhere between doing some work on a business trip and residing in the county full time and working.

Wondering though, how does the US IRS feel about telecommuting cases like this? The OP said that he's be paying taxes in the West (though maybe that Western country is not the US so the point would be moot), but under US tax code you can exclude about US$87K of Foreign Earned Income from taxation in the USA provided that you either spend 330 days per year oustide the US or can show that your "tax home" is overseas and that you have not any made statements to your host county claiming that it is not your tax home. So if you telecommuted from Thailand, live there for 330 days per year, and earn less than $87K, do you have to pay income tax to the US government?

[neverdie]

I dont think he is trying to be rude asia pilot, he's simply stating something factually (& correct) and qualifying his experience.

Nothing rude in that.

Others will be along shortly to tell you that he is correct in what he is saying, you don't need to be a lawyer to work it out. If you want a lawyers answer, perhaps you should go and pay one to tell you what you are being told here.

[kiakaha]

I dont think he is trying to be rude asia pilot, he's simply stating something factually (& correct) and qualifying his experience.

Nothing rude in that.

Others will be along shortly to tell you that he is correct in what he is saying, you don't need to be a lawyer to work it out. If you want a lawyers answer, perhaps you should go and pay one to tell you what you are being told here.

And I am correct.

[neverdie]

I dont think he is trying to be rude asia pilot, he's simply stating something factually (& correct) and qualifying his experience.

Nothing rude in that.

Others will be along shortly to tell you that he is correct in what he is saying, you don't need to be a lawyer to work it out. If you want a lawyers answer, perhaps you should go and pay one to tell you what you are being told here.

And I am correct.

Yes, you are correct. Does it happen often?

[kiakaha]

I dont think he is trying to be rude asia pilot, he's simply stating something factually (& correct) and qualifying his experience.

Nothing rude in that.

Others will be along shortly to tell you that he is correct in what he is saying, you don't need to be a lawyer to work it out. If you want a lawyers answer, perhaps you should go and pay one to tell you what you are being told here.

And I am correct.

Yes, you are correct. Does it happen often?

You should see me in pub quizzes.

[Maestro]

The way the question in the original post is worded it is pretty clear that a work permitted would be needed. “Mr. Immigration Officer, I am working in Thailand but I use the Internet to work for a company abroad. My income is not less than 40,000 Baht per month and here is the embassy letter. May I have an annual extension of stay to live with my Thai wife, please?”

--

Maestro

[Thaiphile]

The way the question in the original post is worded it is pretty clear that a work permitted would be needed. "Mr. Immigration Officer, I am working in Thailand but I use the Internet to work for a company abroad. My income is not less than 40,000 Baht per month and here is the embassy letter. May I have an annual extension of stay to live with my Thai wife, please?"

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Maestro

A possible solution could be to set up a company in a tax haven to "do the work" and receive the income and then pay you a regular dividend. This may be a practical possibility, though technically I am not sure exactly what the position would be?

[kiakaha]

The way the question in the original post is worded it is pretty clear that a work permitted would be needed. "Mr. Immigration Officer, I am working in Thailand but I use the Internet to work for a company abroad. My income is not less than 40,000 Baht per month and here is the embassy letter. May I have an annual extension of stay to live with my Thai wife, please?"

--

Maestro

A possible solution could be to set up a company in a tax haven to "do the work" and receive the income and then pay you a regular dividend. This may be a practical possibility, though technically I am not sure exactly what the position would be?

Not a solution at all regarding the individual entity legally working in Thailand.

1) YOU do the work, your physical actions being performed in Thailand..not the "offshore" company incorporated in, for example, Hong Kong(as a popular example for IT contractors).The work contract, invoicing and fund remittance can be legally conducted between the offshore company and the client in USA..but that is irrelevant when it comes down to the simple fact that YOU are working in Thailand and need a work permit.Period.

2) Sure, pay yourself a dividend or a directors fee , and then pay tax on that payment as income where you are tax resident....Thailand, as per the Revenue Department rules.

[Maestro]

A possible solution could be to set up a company in a tax haven to "do the work" and receive the income and then pay you a regular dividend. This may be a practical possibility, though technically I am not sure exactly what the position would be?

No, this would not work for the OP. He would need a work permit for employment with a company registered in Thailand.

--

Maestro

[Jingthing]

I have a contrarian point of view.

I do not believe immigration is interested in this kind of grey area.

You are Canadian? Does the Canadian embassy require proof of income to issue the embassy letter? For Americans, you just state the income, and get the letter, they don't even ask what is the nature of the income.

That all said, if you get a letter, immigration may ask you what is your source of income (they can ask anything). Then you are in a fix, as you do not want to ever be put into a position where you lie to immigration to a direct question.

So my suggestion is this, go with the pure 800K baht in the bank way of qualifying. No letter. Then do your remote work. You won't be caught unless you are asking for it. Cheers.

People can argue till the cows come home whether working remotely physically in Thailand on an enterprise that has nothing to do with Thailand should be done off the radar, but I have been following this issue for years, and except for illegal activities like porn, you just don't hear about this being an issue of enforcement interest to immigration. I think the risk of being caught is tiny and I also think ethically you also have a leg to stand on (if you care).

Sure people will tell you it is TECHNICALLY illegal. The reality is immigration here and even most countries is not sophisticated enough to deal with this kind of situation, which is more and more common.

[mahtin]

So my suggestion is this, go with the pure 800K baht in the bank way of qualifying.

If over 50???

Look at the nipper in the avatar, not that that tells you anything about Dad's age! (I should know.)

But if he's in Canada, he probably already married his Thai wife.

Or I totally missed the mark

Not many emoticons in this section, are there? Beer o'clock.

[kiakaha]

I have a contrarian point of view.

I do not believe immigration is interested in this kind of grey area.

You are Canadian? Does the Canadian embassy require proof of income to issue the embassy letter? For Americans, you just state the income, and get the letter, they don't even ask what is the nature of the income.

That all said, if you get a letter, immigration may ask you what is your source of income (they can ask anything). Then you are in a fix, as you do not want to ever be put into a position where you lie to immigration to a direct question.

So my suggestion is this, go with the pure 800K baht in the bank way of qualifying. No letter. Then do your remote work. You won't be caught unless you are asking for it. Cheers.

People can argue till the cows come home whether working remotely physically in Thailand on an enterprise that has nothing to do with Thailand should be done off the radar, but I have been following this issue for years, and except for illegal activities like porn, you just don't hear about this being an issue of enforcement interest to immigration. I think the risk of being caught is tiny and I also think ethically you also have a leg to stand on (if you care).

Sure people will tell you it is TECHNICALLY illegal. The reality is immigration here and even most countries is not sophisticated enough to deal with this kind of situation, which is more and more common.

Working illegally in Thailand is not an Immigration department concern.

It is a Ministry of Labor (work permit) and Revenue Department (income tax) issue.....and people can and have been charged with felonys.

You can self justify the issue in your own mind all you want , simple fact is that if you are working in thailand you need a work permit and are subject to the revenues department's tax rules.

It isn't rocket science. Of course you can fly under the radar and break the law, but that would be your choice and I would NEVER advocate it.

[Jingthing]

The OP is talking about an activity that doesn't not interface with Thailand's economy in any way. Name me ONE case where a person doing that was prosecuted here and then I will take such comments seriously. No I am not talking about people shipping exports, they do use the Thai economy. I am talking about someone sitting in his home using the computer and telephone and totally divorced from the Thai banking system (and filing taxes for it in the operational country) and not an otherwise illegal activity like porn. One such case, let's hear about it. The other aspect about such situations is that there really isn't any practical way or a practical reason to make such a venture part of the Thai economy. So for people operating this way, the only real practical choices are under the radar or nothing.

[kiakaha]

The OP is talking about an activity that doesn't not interface with Thailand's economy in any way. Name me ONE case where a person doing that was prosecuted here and then I will take such comments seriously. No I am not talking about people shipping exports, they do use the Thai economy. I am talking about someone sitting in his home using the computer and telephone and totally divorced from the Thai banking system (and filing taxes for it in the operational country) and not an otherwise illegal activity like porn. One such case, let's hear about it. The other aspect about such situations is that there really isn't any practical way or a practical reason to make such a venture part of the Thai economy. So for people operating this way, the only real practical choices are under the radar or nothing.

I'm not "making comments"...I am stating objective facts.

You just advocated breaking the law, and many people do this.

The OP wanted to know about the legal situation, the law, not ways to break it/skirt it and fly under the radar illegally.

Therefore I answer as such, objectively and accurately.

[Jingthing]

The OP is talking about an activity that doesn't not interface with Thailand's economy in any way. Name me ONE case where a person doing that was prosecuted here and then I will take such comments seriously. No I am not talking about people shipping exports, they do use the Thai economy. I am talking about someone sitting in his home using the computer and telephone and totally divorced from the Thai banking system (and filing taxes for it in the operational country) and not an otherwise illegal activity like porn. One such case, let's hear about it. The other aspect about such situations is that there really isn't any practical way or a practical reason to make such a venture part of the Thai economy. So for people operating this way, the only real practical choices are under the radar or nothing.

I'm not "making comments"...I am stating objective facts.

You just advocated breaking the law, and many people do this.

The OP wanted to know about the legal situation, the law, not ways to break it/skirt it and fly under the radar illegally.

Therefore I answer as such, objectively and accurately.

Actually, the OP wanted to know if he could use the income to qualify for a retirement extension or other O extension. I agree it is technically illegal. So is prostitution. I assert that the Thai authorities are not actively looking for this kind of violation (done behind private doors, having nothing to do with any Thai) and I am confident of that based on following this issue for many years. Now of course there is always the risk of making an enemy and having the activity reported. Even then, I am not sure they would always act on it as there would be no visible evidence of work that had anything to do with the Thai economy and no Thai money trail either. Are you a Thai lawyer? If not, you are making comments. As far as taxes go, people doing such things generally file tax as if they were a resident of their home country, depending on exceptional situations of course.

Sometimes there is a conflict between the strictly legal and the realistically practical. I can imagine being offered a freelance project based from the US, something that I could do on my computer and share the files online with payment to a US bank account. If that happened, I would have three choices. Turn down the work because I couldn't do it strictly legally or enter the Thai bureaucracy which would be absurdly impractical, or work under the radar. Most rational people would go with the third choice or just turn down the work. Sorry if this offends people who cross the street at crosswalks in Thailand.

[kiakaha]

The OP is talking about an activity that doesn't not interface with Thailand's economy in any way. Name me ONE case where a person doing that was prosecuted here and then I will take such comments seriously. No I am not talking about people shipping exports, they do use the Thai economy. I am talking about someone sitting in his home using the computer and telephone and totally divorced from the Thai banking system (and filing taxes for it in the operational country) and not an otherwise illegal activity like porn. One such case, let's hear about it. The other aspect about such situations is that there really isn't any practical way or a practical reason to make such a venture part of the Thai economy. So for people operating this way, the only real practical choices are under the radar or nothing.

I'm not "making comments"...I am stating objective facts.

You just advocated breaking the law, and many people do this.

The OP wanted to know about the legal situation, the law, not ways to break it/skirt it and fly under the radar illegally.

Therefore I answer as such, objectively and accurately.

Actually, the OP wanted to know if he could use the income to qualify for a retirement extension or other O extension. I agree it is technically illegal. So is prostitution. I assert that the Thai authorities are not actively looking for this kind of violation (done behind private doors, having nothing to do with any Thai) and I am confident of that based on following this issue for many years. Now of course there is always the risk of making an enemy and having the activity reported. Even then, I am not sure they would always act on it as there would be no visible evidence of work that had anything to do with the Thai economy and no Thai money trail either. Are you a Thai lawyer? If not, you are making comments. As far as taxes go, people doing such things generally file tax as if they were a resident of their home country, depending on exceptional situations of course.

Sometimes there is a conflict between the strictly legal and the realistically practical. I can imagine being offered a freelance project based from the US, something that I could do on my computer and share the files online with payment to a US bank account. If that happened, I would have three choices. Turn down the work because I couldn't do it strictly legally or enter the Thai bureaucracy which would be absurdly impractical, or work under the radar. Most rational people would go with the third choice or just turn down the work. Sorry if this offends people who cross the street at crosswalks in Thailand.

Lets agree to disagree. You are advocating breaking the law, I am advocating adhering to the law. Practical or impractical as it may seem, as a foreigner in Thailand, I choose to adhere to the law and also offer advice in this respect.

I'm out of this thread.

[Jingthing]

So in the OP's case, working a remote US job in Thailand on retirement extension, what are the exact legal steps he would have to go through to be legal, visa-wise and work permit wise? I presume it would be too much overhead for his US employer who isn't the slightest bit interested in doing business in Thailand, but lets hear about the legal option ...

Oh, I guess our "legal" expert has left the thread.

[jumnien]

If he asked enough questions around bureaucrats in Bangkok and delved deep enough into it, the OP could probably legally pay taxes in Thailand and get a work permit. Otherwise, just do your business and enjoy Thailand and the freedom to be!

[Jingthing]

If he asked enough questions around bureaucrats in Bangkok and delved deep enough into it, the OP could probably legally pay taxes in Thailand and get a work permit. Otherwise, just do your business and enjoy Thailand and the freedom to be!

A work permit to work in his home for a US business and no Thai office? I don't think so. And he couldn't use retirement extensions either if he was working on the radar.

[jumnien]

If he asked enough questions around bureaucrats in Bangkok and delved deep enough into it, the OP could probably legally pay taxes in Thailand and get a work permit. Otherwise, just do your business and enjoy Thailand and the freedom to be!

A work permit to work in his home for a US business and no Thai office? I don't think so. And he couldn't use retirement extensions either if he was working on the radar.

A little money under the table and he could probably secure a work permit and pay Thai taxes if he desperately desired so.

[Jingthing]

A little money under the table and he could probably secure a work permit and pay Thai taxes if he desperately desired so.

Yes, paying bribes. sounds perfectly legal.

[jumnien]

I don't believe there is a Thai translation of the phrase "perfectly legal".

[Jingthing]

I reckon the proposed "legal" option, pay bribes to get established in a way that doesn't meet normal requirements is much riskier than just working under the radar.

[jumnien]

Agreed, exactly my point. Just being a little cheeky this morning!

[Jingthing]

Agreed, exactly my point. Just being a little cheeky this morning!

Cheeky works for me.