Applying For Thai Citizenship

[dbrenn]

A while back I posted a thread here describing my application for Thai citizenship.

As you can see, the requirements for Thai citizenship are similar to the requirements for PR, and are mainly centred around living, working and paying tax. I can see a lot of people on this forum talking about PR applications, but surprisingly nobody seems to be applying for citizenship. This is a bit strange, given all the benefits that citizenship confers compared with the very few benefits that PR holders enjoy. People I talk to on this subject dismiss the idea of applying for Thai citizenship as 'impossible', when actually it isn't - you don't need to know any influential people and all it takes is following a well defined process.

Are any PR holders out there putting their applications in?

[kiakaha]

I can see a lot of people on this forum talking about PR applications, but surprisingly nobody seems to be applying for citizenship.

Probably because PR is a pre-requisite to Citizenship.One hurdle at a time.

Out of curiosity, what are the Thai language requirements for a grant of citizenship ?

[skippybangkok]

...I can see a lot of people on this forum talking about PR applications, but surprisingly nobody seems to be applying for citizenship. This is a bit strange, given all the benefits that citizenship confers compared with the very few benefits that PR holders enjoy...

I think its the dread of a 2nd round of Paper work !

[Tywais]

Out of curiosity, what are the Thai language requirements for a grant of citizenship ?

My understanding is school grade 6 level competency (Prathom 6).

[Barty]

dbrenn, how did you go about choosing your Thai name?

[Maizefarmer]

The benefits of PR are well known and understood - but tell me, just what are the benfits of Thai citizenship?

From my perspective and those I have spoken to who have considered the situation many times, the value the protection foreign citizenship gives to us in Thailand, far outwieghs the benefits got through Thai citizenship - which would result in the loss of all the protection accorded through foreign citizenship.

In Thailand - no matter what your dual nationality is, the law is: if you hold Thai citizenship, you are first and foremost considered a Thai citizen.

Fair enough, some may value the so-called tax and property benefits accorded by way of Thai citizenship, but quite frankly - so long as my marrige survives, my Thai assets are as secure as they could ever be.

..... that all said, there is something I like in been able to pack bags and go overnight with my family (to hel_l with any property assets) if the need arose. I have always been careful to make sure there is something offshore should the need arise.

I guess its down to ones personal and business circumstances - the few ex-pats I know who are Thai citizens, are so mainly because of business interests.

[DeathbyDurian]

I will be applying for PR soon. Eventually, if it makes sense, for TC aswell.

Could anyone tell me if there are any major 'western' countires that do not allow dual citizenship for people not living in their home country?

[kiakaha]

The benefits of PR are well known and understood - but tell me, just what are the benfits of Thai citizenship?

Aside from what you've mentioned, these benefits also come to mind :

No work permit needed.

No occupational restrictions.

Obviously, no more visa requirements.

[samran]

I put in the application for my wife to be naturalised a Thai national last year. The paperwork is in, and we are waiting, and are expecting to wait for quite a while. Nevertheless, i have already outlined the process we went through in dbrenn's thread above.

Arguments about the fairness of a foreign wife being able to skip the PR process are valid, but for the purposes of this discussion, lets leave them aside for now.

The truth of matter is, if you have PR and are still working, then it is worth while going for it, if you expect to be around for a while. The paperwork is no more copious than my expriences with say, the UK (when I went to work there once upon a time as a non-EU national), and if you are in BKK, you have the added bonus of the Special Branch of police (who handle the applications first step) being VERY helpful if you have any questions.

All up, it was about 4 days of my time to collect the relevant documents for my wife, as well as sit down for the application at police HQ. Alot of the running around can be done by others, but I had some time to spare, so did so myself.

In terms of why we did it, we were doing it for a couple of reasons:

1) My wife will not have to give up her NZ nationality (ie as Maizfarmer says, we can pack our bags overnight, and be gone).

2) It will mean we as a family unit can live here visa free, as it is only my wife who doesn't have a thai PP (the rest of us all have at least 2 passports, my daughters have three each)

3) We can escape the yearly fun and games at Suan Phlu.

The other benefits for us (at the moment) are neither here or there (though they may mean more at some some point in the future). We aren't intending to invest in property here in the medium term, and work permit wise, my wife is a qualifed school teacher, and international schools fall overthemselves to offer her jobs with the work permits etc etc etc..so that isn't the big deal.

So at the moment, it is more about getting the Thai passport 'in the bag' so that we have that ticked off the list. Franckly, it is more of an investment for the future (ie if I get run over by a BMTA bus and she decides to stay, or if that we decide that that block of land up in Khao Yai is really worth it...I will only do it if it is in both of our names...)

As a side note: if I may (respectfully) disagree with Maizfarmer, I don't think having a foreign nationalty here affords you protection in any real sense, apart from the luxury of knowing you can easily 'jump ship' if all goes to seed in Thailand. Consular protection offered by most embassies here is a joke - or "limited" in their language (here is a list of lawyers...call them), and frankly speaking, if anything happened to my wife, or she had a run in with the law (as a non Thai national) the first person(s) i'll be calling are some family members and friends fo our family, not the NZ embassy.

To answer dbrens question though, I think that people aren't rushing to citizenship for a couple of reasons, mainly to do with getting PR to be honest:

1) Many are effectively excluded from PR to begin with given its preference in the rules for tax paying workers (and only paying lip service to the PR via family route)

2) Those who are qualified for PR, may not know it, or are of the view that it is all too hard, when in fact it isn't. Alot of law firms who you may approach, may make out that it is a big song and dance to get PR (implied by the fees they charge), when it isn't, and with a bit of patience, it is probably easier and cheaper to get it yourself.

I may be insulting some good friends here, but my friends who do have PR, are 'nothing special' in terms of what they do and who they are. Bluntly, if they can get PR, then so should many others. It follows then, if you get to PR, then citizenship isn't an unrealistic goal, and quite simple to do yourself.

Edited February 9, 2009 by samran

[kiakaha]

The benefits of PR are well known and understood ...

Aside from what you've mentioned, these benefits also come to mind :

No work permit needed.

No occupational restrictions.

Obviously, no more visa requirements.

nice edit Maestro....you clipped out the part of the quoted text that was relevant to my reply and completely screwed up the context of my reply.

Mods, delete this post, it is now rendered meaningless and inaccurate.

[dbrenn]

Out of curiosity, what are the Thai language requirements for a grant of citizenship ?

My understanding is school grade 6 level competency (Prathom 6).

Not so - all you need is:

1) a working knowledge of the language - enough for general conversation, the same as for PR

2) the ability to sign your name in Thai (however scruffily)

[dbrenn]

dbrenn, how did you go about choosing your Thai name?

You no longer have to take a Thai name, which makes travelling on two passports a good deal easier. I still use my oroginal name. However, just like the Thais do, you can change your name any time you wish once you are a Thai national

[ubonjoe]

The benefits of PR are well known and understood - but tell me, just what are the benfits of Thai citizenship?

Aside from what you've mentioned, these benefits also come to mind :

No work permit needed.

No occupational restrictions.

Obviously, no more visa requirements.

nice edit Maestro....you clipped out the part of the quoted text that was relevant to my reply and completely screwed up the context of my reply.

Mods, delete this post, it is now rendered meaningless and inaccurate.

Does it look better now? I think it was an accident and not intentional.

[dbrenn]

The benefits of PR are well known and understood - but tell me, just what are the benfits of Thai citizenship?

From my perspective and those I have spoken to who have considered the situation many times, the value the protection foreign citizenship gives to us in Thailand, far outwieghs the benefits got through Thai citizenship - which would result in the loss of all the protection accorded through foreign citizenship.

In Thailand - no matter what your dual nationality is, the law is: if you hold Thai citizenship, you are first and foremost considered a Thai citizen.

Fair enough, some may value the so-called tax and property benefits accorded by way of Thai citizenship, but quite frankly - so long as my marrige survives, my Thai assets are as secure as they could ever be.

..... that all said, there is something I like in been able to pack bags and go overnight with my family (to hel_l with any property assets) if the need arose. I have always been careful to make sure there is something offshore should the need arise.

I guess its down to ones personal and business circumstances - the few ex-pats I know who are Thai citizens, are so mainly because of business interests.

You are correct that as a Thai ctizen you would no longer receive support from the embassy of your original nationality while in Thailand, but how likely is it that you would ever need that kind of assistance? If there were a genuine emergency I could always hop across the border and claim British protection in a neighbouring country, but I don't think that is very likely at all. The benefits outweigh the disadvantages - I can call Thailand my home, I can do any kind of work I like there with no need for a work permit, I have rights of ownership, I can get the Thai rates for everything, and I enjoy peace of mind that I never enjoyed while subject to a whole raft of discriminatory rules that apply to PRs.

Funnily enough, I even got to vote in the last election - they had put my name on the electoral role although technically there is a five year wait for this after naturalisation.

[dbrenn]

I will be applying for PR soon. Eventually, if it makes sense, for TC aswell.

Could anyone tell me if there are any major 'western' countires that do not allow dual citizenship for people not living in their home country?

I know that the UK and Australia allows dual nationality. Not sure about the others though - you should check

[ubonjoe]

Not so - all you need is:

1) a working knowledge of the language - enough for general conversation, the same as for PR

2) the ability to sign your name in Thai (however scruffily)

But singing the national anthem. I don't think I could sing my home countries. I hope they don't judge you on your ability to sing. I would never make it.

[dbrenn]

2) Those who are qualified for PR, may not know it, or are of the view that it is all too hard, when in fact it isn't. Alot of law firms who you may approach, may make out that it is a big song and dance to get PR (implied by the fees they charge), when it isn't, and with a bit of patience, it is probably easier and cheaper to get it yourself.

I may be insulting some good friends here, but my friends who do have PR, are 'nothing special' in terms of what they do and who they are. Bluntly, if they can get PR, then so should many others. It follows then, if you get to PR, then citizenship isn't an unrealistic goal, and quite simple to do yourself.

Hi Samran - What I found with both PR and Citizenship was that the processes were straighforward and not nearly as difficult as I thought they would be. The officials that I dealt with in both cases were very fair and kind to me, helping me to navigate the red tape.

My lawyer told me that PR was 'very hard' and that it would be 'very expensive' but that he could 'get it for me', advice which turned out to be complete rubbish once I had a go at doing it myself.

I think what you say is true - people either don't know that they are eligible, or assume that it is too hard to do. Even some friends of mine who are PR, and who would qualify for citizenship just can't be bothered going this final step, preferring instead to whinge about how few rights they have ..

Edited February 10, 2009 by dbrenn

[dbrenn]

Not so - all you need is:

1) a working knowledge of the language - enough for general conversation, the same as for PR

2) the ability to sign your name in Thai (however scruffily)

But singing the national anthem. I don't think I could sing my home countries. I hope they don't judge you on your ability to sing. I would never make it.

You don't need to be a Pavarotti - believe me. And you can read it from a sheet of paper so you don't even have to memorise it.

[kiakaha]

Not so - all you need is:

1) a working knowledge of the language - enough for general conversation, the same as for PR

2) the ability to sign your name in Thai (however scruffily)

But singing the national anthem. I don't think I could sing my home countries. I hope they don't judge you on your ability to sing. I would never make it.

I actually find it quite easy to sing in thai..dont have to be so precise with the pronunciation tones..the musical tones are however another(more challenging) matter

[kiakaha]

Out of curiosity, what are the Thai language requirements for a grant of citizenship ?

My understanding is school grade 6 level competency (Prathom 6).

Not so - all you need is:

1) a working knowledge of the language - enough for general conversation, the same as for PR

2) the ability to sign your name in Thai (however scruffily)

and the reading thai/writing script standards ?

[Spiny]

Are any PR holders out there putting their applications in?

I've had PR for 4 years now and I have been definately considering Thai citizenship. I have lived and worked in the Kingdom for about 22 years, so conversational Thai is ok. I am learning the songs also. If my application is successful then do I forfeit my Uk basic State pension, which I would be due to receive in 8 years time, along with Uk Citizenship. Can you hold both Thai and Uk citizenship?, with your collection of passports you seem to imply that you can.

I am also concerned with the recent Thai government intiatives of raising taxes through property and inheritance tax. I have a nice condo here which I would like to pass onto my children. (British citizens, 2 working here , 1 in the Uk)

Another concern is also my wife's status who is Singaporean and who's current visa is based my work permit, renewable every 2 years.

[dbrenn]

Out of curiosity, what are the Thai language requirements for a grant of citizenship ?

My understanding is school grade 6 level competency (Prathom 6).

Not so - all you need is:

1) a working knowledge of the language - enough for general conversation, the same as for PR

2) the ability to sign your name in Thai (however scruffily)

and the reading thai/writing script standards ?

Not necessary. I can read, but there was no test and the officials fill in all the forms for you

[kiakaha]

I have a new mission for the week, learn the anthem off by heart :

http://www.learningthai.com/songs/anthem_02.html

I apologize for the imminent barrage of soi dog's barking and howling.

[dbrenn]

I've had PR for 4 years now and I have been definately considering Thai citizenship. I have lived and worked in the Kingdom for about 22 years, so conversational Thai is ok. I am learning the songs also. If my application is successful then do I forfeit my Uk basic State pension, which I would be due to receive in 8 years time, along with Uk Citizenship. Can you hold both Thai and Uk citizenship?, with your collection of passports you seem to imply that you can.

I am also concerned with the recent Thai government intiatives of raising taxes through property and inheritance tax. I have a nice condo here which I would like to pass onto my children. (British citizens, 2 working here , 1 in the Uk)

Another concern is also my wife's status who is Singaporean and who's current visa is based my work permit, renewable every 2 years.

1) No impact on your UK pension

2) No effect on your UK citizenship

3) Taxation rules are generally the same for foreigners and Thais

4) Your Singaporean wife, by virtue of her marriage to you (a Thai citizen) would be eligible for non-imm 'O' visa extensions, renewable in country. After 5 years, she would te be eligible to apply for Thai citizenship, bypassing PR as she has a Thai husband

[ubonjoe]

Another concern is also my wife's status who is Singaporean and who's current visa is based my work permit, renewable every 2 years.

That's not a worry. Since you would then be a Thai her extension would be the same as any marriage extension. Which is 2.18 (1, 2 and 3) of the police order.

Edit: Her current extension should be under 2.19 since you have PR.

police_order_2008.pdf

[Spiny]

[Are any PR holders out there putting their applications in?

Do you have the words written in Thai and a transliteration or a website with the other song (not the National Anthem) as per the National Anthem posted below?

[Mario2008]

Do you have the words written in Thai and a transliteration or a website with the other song (not the National Anthem) as per the National Anthem posted below?

Just google THai royal anthem, you will find several versions (of the English translation).

[Spiny]

Do you have the words written in Thai and a transliteration or a website with the other song (not the National Anthem) as per the National Anthem posted below?

Just google THai royal anthem, you will find several versions (of the English translation).

Not the Thai Natinal Anthem , the other song "Phra Baramee" (the one they play in the cinema).

[Spiny]

Do you have the words written in Thai and a transliteration or a website with the other song (not the National Anthem) as per the National Anthem posted below?

Just google THai royal anthem, you will find several versions (of the English translation).

the other song "Phra Baramee" (the one they play in the cinema).

Okay I've got it , thanks for the help !

[Spiny]

Thai Royal Anthem

http://www.nationalanthems.us/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1096011874