Westerner's Decapitated Head Found Hanging Beneath Rama Viii Bridge

[siamiam]

"Its a bit of a stupid question, climbing ropes are made to take the weight of a person are they not? what would be the point in owning a climbing rope that would break."

There is an old Siamese saying, (or was it Chinese), that a man who asks a foolish question is foolish for a moment, but the man who does not ask is foolish for a lifetime. In your case, the question is not foolish, but is in fact logical. Yes, a climber would not want to estimate how far 'out' he is as he is about to fall, in order to know if his rope will break or not. A new undamaged 10.5mm or 11mm climbing rope will not break, regardless of the distance of the lead fall, unless the rope gets damaged in the process. siamiam

"Interesting recent discussion about professional and sturdy climber's ropes..... but apparently it was wasted talk... Also, the rope has been identified as a common brand sold in 7-11"

I don't think you can have too much information. I read the report on the ropes origin before I made my post. I would also like to know the results of any subsequent toxicology reports on the remains. Regarding a previouse post questioning how long it would take to hang an unwilling man from a bridge: if that man were unconcious due to druging, I think it could be done in less than 60 seconds, including time for tying off the rope. From other reports, it sounds like the deceased may have had medical reasons for wanting to end his life though. siamiam

[sriracha john]

"Interesting recent discussion about professional and sturdy climber's ropes..... but apparently it was wasted talk... Also, the rope has been identified as a common brand sold in 7-11"

I don't think you can have too much information.

I agree. I just would have preferred all the scientific data and technical discussion to have centered on the thin laundry line rope that was actually used instead of on the polar opposite professional and sturdy climber's rope.

[Naam]

would somebody please tell me was the head in the bag or not? i have not slept in days. this enigma drives me mad!

[pimfram]

most of the discussion on page 1 of this thread was about how the head was found.

[BiteMe]

would somebody please tell me was the head in the bag or not? i have not slept in days. this enigma drives me mad!

I was wondering too why the complication of putting a bag over the head before the jump

[Who, me ?]

would somebody please tell me was the head in the bag or not? i have not slept in days. this enigma drives me mad!

You will be relieved to know that when the paramedics recovered the head, they immediately put it in a bag, as well as the body, by the way.

I am now sure that you will have no more sleepless nights over this topic

[Robby nz]

A bit more on the rope:

If in fact it came from 711, I have never seen rope for sale in any of them but then I havent looked for any, It could have been of 2 types, as someone said laundry rope which is thin and designed to take a clothes peg or a tow rope meant to be used for towing a car, the latter would be way strong enough. A tow rope would also more than likely be about the right length.

There are many types of synthetic rope all with different properties and breaking strains, the one I have used most is 7mm polypropoline which would be easily strong enough. At the extreme end is a rope we used for a research project which was 8mm and was rated at 14,000lb but that is very expensive stuff and is unlikely to be availiable in TL.

Someone asked about the men in white as photographed at the scene:

Consider who was most likely to have made the discovery of the head on the rope. Not a passing motorist for they are all going places and wouldnt stop particularly on a bridge, that leaves someone under the bridge or one of the motorbike cops who patrol the bridge. If one of them saw a rope tied to the bridge he would more than likely stop to have a look, if this is correct once he saw a head on the rope do you think he would have pulled it up for a closer look or remembered some of his training "dont disturbe a crime scene" then got on his radio and called for help? Then who would arrive? The forensic team, in white, and of course the boss cop so he could get his name on the news. If it was someone under the bridge who raised the alarm they would have called the cops with the same result.

For those who still think the head was removed from the body before the head was put in a plastic bag and hung from the bridge, where is all the blood? removing a head is a messy business. And if the head was lowered in a bag how did blood get on the outside of the bridge?

But he was Italian wasnt he so it must have been mafia, If this was the case why was the body so close to the head? If someone had murdered him and wanted to use the head on a rope as a warning or fear factor then dumping the body far from the head would have removed all doubt that it could have been suicide.

Then the murderers paid the police to say right from the start it was murded, Oh Oh something wrong here, must have paid them after the head was found so the cops would change the story to protect those who provided the cash, then there are the forensic team and the hospital to be paid.

Gets more way out the more you look at it dont you think?

[brahmburgers]

I am a climber, there is no way a climbing rope would break with that load..

Interesting recent discussion about professional and sturdy climber's ropes..... but apparently it was wasted talk...

Also, the rope has been identified as a common brand sold in 7-11

So much of the reporting has been found to be false 'after the fact' - so how can we believe what we hear about the rope brand and where it might have been sold. We still don't know if the head was discovered in a plastic bag or whether the bag hung alongside. It appears the bag was alongside, but many initial reports over many days indicated the head was in a bag. I know Thais are generally bad about precision (if you ask one the time, and it's within 15 minutes of five, they'll say five o'clock).

It's no surprise why Thais are not known for detective work or for scientific prowess. Those are two fields where keen observation and precision are key.

I doubt the rope was a climbing rope - though the rope looked rather thick in the photos - thicker than common laundry line, which is what I'd expect to be sold in a place like 7-11. I believe the rope used - and the distance fallen, caused the decapitation.

From here on out, whenever I hear an assessment of a crime from Thai 'officials' - I won't take the description at face value. Same goes for Thai media, which all too quickly ape the 'facts' which are fed to them from officials. Either Thai officials get a strong dose of how to scientifically assess situations, or Thai media can employ some scientifically-trained farang to do their reporting. As it stands now, reporting by Thai sources is not reliable.

Edited February 27, 2009 by brahmburgers

[CrossBones]

Its pretty common for the crime scene to be interfered with.... for example for the sake of taking photos that make the police look like they are doing a wonderful job.

My example here - It looks to me like the head etc were moved to a different location. As the locations of the pictures are different - note the street lamps and items attached to the railings on the bridge and in the third picture i posted - no blood. Different colored rope in the three pictures.

Perhaps someone found the item on a rope pulled it up not knowing what it was, discovered head - called police. Police arrive and want to be the ones finding the head - so retake the picture for the sake of getting the photos they want for "evidence" or "PR" with them actually recovering the head. During this process the location is changed for whatever reason. I find it unlikey someone could identify a head, inside a plastic bag dangling 25 ft from a bridge - head is the last thing you might expect to find. I would expect someone to pull the bag up hoping to find valuables etc inside the bag. Just as likely to find a bag full of money than someones head in my opinion.

Something seems amiss here.

[imaneggspurt]

would somebody please tell me was the head in the bag or not? i have not slept in days. this enigma drives me mad!

I was wondering too why the complication of putting a bag over the head before the jump

Maybe so that he couldnt see what was about to happen ?

[Who, me ?]

Its pretty common for the crime scene to be interfered with.... for example for the sake of taking photos that make the police look like they are doing a wonderful job.

My example here - It looks to me like the head etc were moved to a different location. As the locations of the pictures are different - note the street lamps and items attached to the railings on the bridge and in the third picture i posted - no blood. Different colored rope in the three pictures.

Perhaps someone found the item on a rope pulled it up not knowing what it was, discovered head - called police. Police arrive and want to be the ones finding the head - so retake the picture for the sake of getting the photos they want for "evidence" or "PR" with them actually recovering the head. During this process the location is changed for whatever reason. I find it unlikey someone could identify a head, inside a plastic bag dangling 25 ft from a bridge - head is the last thing you might expect to find. I would expect someone to pull the bag up hoping to find valuables etc inside the bag. Just as likely to find a bag full of money than someones head in my opinion.

Something seems amiss here.

Welcome to the new conspiracy theory !!!

[animatic]

Climbing ropes are intended to carry the weight of the climber

PLUS the forces of them falling a considerable distance and being caught up short.

Usually this is through a thick multi-point body harness, not wrapped around a neck.

Climbing ropes are by their nature as strong, slim and light as possible.

So sans harness exert very strong forces on a small area.

Easily a 5 meter drop could cause the damage seen and not break a climbing rope.

Edited February 27, 2009 by animatic

[sriracha john]

Our local 7-11 doesn't sell professional climbing ropes, but perhaps another one does.

Ours only sells rope that inevitably breaks after 3 months of being outside and having shirts (light-weight, thin, short-sleeves and without a body inside of them), hung on it.

Edited February 27, 2009 by sriracha john

[A_Traveller]

Forgive the 'off-topic' but anyone else hear about the 'farang' who jumped, intentionally, to his death? Camera-phone footage was on the Television news yesterday apparently?

Regards

PS Spell out Television to avoid confusion with TV as herein

/edit re footage - precise location of jump unclear//

Edited February 27, 2009 by A_Traveller

[stumonster]

Forgive the 'off-topic' but anyone else hear about the 'farang' who jumped, intentionally, to his death? Camera-phone footage was on the Television news yesterday apparently?

I saw that on the news last night. - it happened at swampypoon about 10pm on wed

the newsreader said it was a 27 yr old Irishman who after a months holiday here did not have enough money to go home - that was all that I was able to catch.

[siamiam]

I am not qualified to talk about the properties of ropes other than those used in climbing. And in any event, I don't think we can really be sure of what type of rope was used in this event. I know it was reported as being the type used in clothes lines, but what does that mean? And, as another poster has said, you can't believe everything you read about in news reports. This isn't just true in Thailand, but everywhere I believe. I can say that a 10.5mm or 11mm climbing rope is about the same diameter as the thickest part of my index finger, and also about the same as the width of my eyeball. When I look at the photos in post #426 of this thread, where the rope is attached to the head, it looks to me like the rope is possibly in the 9mm to 11mm diameter range. Also, in one of the photos that show where the rope goes over the edge of the bridge and is up against the bridge at that point, comparing its diamtere here with some of the concrete form features in the bridge may give an indication of it's diameter. Like you said, polypropelene ropes become very brittle and fragile over time in the sun. What are the chances of a new polypro rope of this diametere being likely to withstand a load as that generated in this event? Again, I'm not qualified to offer an opinion. In one of the above mentioned photos, it looks like the rope may have been multi-stranded, (and this could be a broken strand). I don't know what the implications of that, if true, may be. siamiam

"Interesting recent discussion about professional and sturdy climber's ropes..... but apparently it was wasted talk... Also, the rope has been identified as a common brand sold in 7-11"

I don't think you can have too much information.

I agree. I just would have preferred all the scientific data and technical discussion to have centered on the thin laundry line rope that was actually used instead of on the polar opposite professional and sturdy climber's rope.

[ThaiEye]

Forgive the 'off-topic' but anyone else hear about the 'farang' who jumped, intentionally, to his death? Camera-phone footage was on the Television news yesterday apparently?

Regards

PS Spell out Television to avoid confusion with TV as herein

/edit re footage - precise location of jump unclear//

Probably pushed! That's the story all the sensationalist conspiracy theorists will come out with on TV and by jove there are a lotta them.

[siamiam]

I just found the following article at this site: http://enews.mcot.net/view.php?id=8773

Sorry if this has already been posted. It talks about the rope, possibly without telling us exactly what type of rope it is. But, it implies the possibility of something more stout than clothesline rope. siamiam

Headless foreigner identifiedBANGKOK, Feb 25 (TNA) - The foreign male whose severed head was found hanging from the Rama VIII Bridge on Sunday was believed to have stayed at a nearby restaurant in Bangkok's Bang Lamphu area and been prompted by despair and joblessness to commit suicide.

Deputy police chief Pol. Gen. Jongrak Juthanont announced that the foreigner had been identified as Maurizio Tosadori, a 53-year-old Italian national, who arrived in Thailand earlier this month.

He was not the Italian man, Giovanni Gaeta, 49 whom police had earlier identified based on pictures taken at airport immigration.

Tosadori was believed to have hanged himself from the bridge platform, resulting in his ripped-off head dangling from a high performance mountain climbing nylon rope at the bridge and his body, torn away from his head, plunging into the Chao Phraya River. The body was found floating on Monday,

According to a Thai witness, Vimol Chaichong who owns the Chai Vegetarian Restaurant where Mr. Tosadori stayed in the Bang Lamphu area, told police she had provided lodging at restaurant for the Italian who had been told to leave last weekend.

Mr. Tosadori had not been seen at the restaurant since.

Police found the headless body of Mr. Tosadori in the river beneath the bridge. The Italian, believed to have been an architect who had desperately looked for a job in Bangkok, was in poor health and was a chain smoker. Personal belongings found with the Italian's headless body matched items reported by the restaurant owner.

The police believed the rope tying around his head may have been used in jungle-trekking as the deceased had had the liking for such outdoors activity.

Mrs. Vimol however told police that the phrases handwritten in English on the bridge were not similar to the Italian’s handwriting, which she had seen.

Police have said they needed 30 days to find out if the Italian had committed suicide, as concluded by Thai forensic officials, or if he had been murdered. (TNA)

[madjbs]

Falling for the same mistake again sriracha john?

You can't trust what the media tells you so stop using quotes from newspapers to try and prove a point. They are completely unreliable as you should already of found out in this thread.

It is unlikely the rope was a climbing rope I agree, although some reports did say that. From the picture it looks like a normal 10mm ish pollysomething rope you can buy almost anywhere. It is obviously thicker than clothes line, a rope of the approximate diameter in the photos would hold a human on a small fall easily.

[basjke]

Its pretty common for the crime scene to be interfered with.... for example for the sake of taking photos that make the police look like they are doing a wonderful job.

My example here - It looks to me like the head etc were moved to a different location. As the locations of the pictures are different - note the street lamps and items attached to the railings on the bridge and in the third picture i posted - no blood. Different colored rope in the three pictures.

Perhaps someone found the item on a rope pulled it up not knowing what it was, discovered head - called police. Police arrive and want to be the ones finding the head - so retake the picture for the sake of getting the photos they want for "evidence" or "PR" with them actually recovering the head. During this process the location is changed for whatever reason. I find it unlikey someone could identify a head, inside a plastic bag dangling 25 ft from a bridge - head is the last thing you might expect to find. I would expect someone to pull the bag up hoping to find valuables etc inside the bag. Just as likely to find a bag full of money than someones head in my opinion.

Something seems amiss here.

Or Maybe there were 2 heads and they messed up with the pictures.You remember before the head was identified as to be from someone else.So sure there were 2 heads and now they don't know anymore which one belongs to who.

[sriracha john]

Falling for the same mistake again sriracha john?

You can't trust what the media tells you so stop using quotes from newspapers to try and prove a point. They are completely unreliable as you should already of found out in this thread.

It is unlikely the rope was a climbing rope I agree, although some reports did say that. From the picture it looks like a normal 10mm ish pollysomething rope you can buy almost anywhere. It is obviously thicker than clothes line, a rope of the approximate diameter in the photos would hold a human on a small fall easily.

Using one media source as a means to refute another media source leaves the discussion as muddied as it is.

Even with the supposition that it was suicide, to me this most often described as a lira-less and ill-health person is less likely to have a "high performance mountain climbing nylon rope" described in one media as he is to have a cheap 7-11 obtained rope described in another media source.

Obscure, distant photos don't lend much to accurate determination, either. They do show enough, however, to see that this was not a short fall.

Edited February 27, 2009 by sriracha john

[siamiam]

I've decided to ramble on a bit more about ropes, (I'm done after this, I promise):

1) in an earlier post, I talked about falling the full 150 feet of a climbing rope. In reality, it would be possible to fall twice that distance, as you could fall the ropes length above your anchor, and continue falling for the ropes length again below your anchor. Rope stopped falls of this legnth rarely happen in the climbing world. Not important to this thread, but I wanted to correct my ommision.

2) while thinking about this today, I originally thought that a climbing rope would not know the difference between a 35-50 foot fall and a 300 foot fall, because after a body reaches free fall velocity, the impact on the rope would be the same. This may be true on a non-climbing rope with little or no stretch, But a long fall on a climbing rope might actually be less stressful than a shorter fall that still reaches free fall velocity, both on the rope and the falling human. This because of the stretch in a climbing rope. Once reaching free fall velocity, a longer fall, with more rope out would introduce more stretch into the equation and increase that stretches deceleration benifits. Trying to think back on it, (my climbing days are behind me), the impact I felt as both a falling climber, and one catching a falling climber, on longer falls, was no more physically traumatic than on shorter, full velocity falls. The mental aspect is different though, (longer falls being more scarry). The biggest danger in long falls is hitting or even nicking something on the way down, which can be fatal, even though the rope eventually gently stops your fall.

Again, non-climbing ropes are more violent in decelerating falls. It could be that a decapitation such as that in this thread we are discusing, is not possible with a bona-fide modern climbing rope, regardless of the fall distance. I'm not stating a fact, just the possibility. siamiam

[JosephGavon]

I presume all the posters who stated that this was murder will now admit their mistake (sassienie, sriracha john, etc)

Edit:

Occam's razor

I did not post, but I read the thread and I admit that I was about to reply sarcastically to those who maintained that it could be suicide. But if you mention Occam's Razor, you should also admit that it is MUCH simpler to assume homicide in a case so strange as this: it does happen that a hanging occasionally results in decapitation, but only once in a thousand (maybe more) of these events does a consistent flap of skin get stuck in the noose so tightly as to keep the head attached to the rope...

Quite the opposite - it is much simpler to assume suicide than homicide and Occam's razor applies. Regarding decapitation occurring "once in a thousand" - please present any data you have to support this claim.

Another poster wrote a very plausible description of the chain of events that may have happened, here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Westerner-Mu...t&p=2553949

Actually, I said that "a hanging occasionally results in decapitation". That's a lot more than once in a thousand.

Once in a thousand is a hanging that results in a decapitation AND the head stays attached to the rope in that weird way. You want data? I don't have it. But even without the numbers, I humbly think it's counter-intuitive to hold that more likely to happen than someone severing someone else's head off and dropping it from a bridge.

[hamishgillan]

cant find any info on the irish(?) guy who jumped to his death in suvannapum yesterday, anyone- pls post links here

[neverdie]

A bit more on the rope:

If in fact it came from 711, I have never seen rope for sale in any of them but then I havent looked for any, It could have been of 2 types, as someone said laundry rope which is thin and designed to take a clothes peg or a tow rope meant to be used for towing a car, the latter would be way strong enough. A tow rope would also more than likely be about the right length.

There are many types of synthetic rope all with different properties and breaking strains, the one I have used most is 7mm polypropoline which would be easily strong enough. At the extreme end is a rope we used for a research project which was 8mm and was rated at 14,000lb but that is very expensive stuff and is unlikely to be availiable in TL.

Someone asked about the men in white as photographed at the scene:

Consider who was most likely to have made the discovery of the head on the rope. Not a passing motorist for they are all going places and wouldnt stop particularly on a bridge, that leaves someone under the bridge or one of the motorbike cops who patrol the bridge. If one of them saw a rope tied to the bridge he would more than likely stop to have a look, if this is correct once he saw a head on the rope do you think he would have pulled it up for a closer look or remembered some of his training "dont disturbe a crime scene" then got on his radio and called for help? Then who would arrive? The forensic team, in white, and of course the boss cop so he could get his name on the news. If it was someone under the bridge who raised the alarm they would have called the cops with the same result.

For those who still think the head was removed from the body before the head was put in a plastic bag and hung from the bridge, where is all the blood? removing a head is a messy business. And if the head was lowered in a bag how did blood get on the outside of the bridge?

But he was Italian wasnt he so it must have been mafia, If this was the case why was the body so close to the head? If someone had murdered him and wanted to use the head on a rope as a warning or fear factor then dumping the body far from the head would have removed all doubt that it could have been suicide.

Then the murderers paid the police to say right from the start it was murded, Oh Oh something wrong here, must have paid them after the head was found so the cops would change the story to protect those who provided the cash, then there are the forensic team and the hospital to be paid.

Gets more way out the more you look at it dont you think?

Robby, you've definately been watching too many cop shows on tv.

[CrossBones]

A bit more on the rope:

If in fact it came from 711, I have never seen rope for sale in any of them but then I havent looked for any, It could have been of 2 types, as someone said laundry rope which is thin and designed to take a clothes peg or a tow rope meant to be used for towing a car, the latter would be way strong enough. A tow rope would also more than likely be about the right length.

There are many types of synthetic rope all with different properties and breaking strains, the one I have used most is 7mm polypropoline which would be easily strong enough. At the extreme end is a rope we used for a research project which was 8mm and was rated at 14,000lb but that is very expensive stuff and is unlikely to be availiable in TL.

Someone asked about the men in white as photographed at the scene:

Consider who was most likely to have made the discovery of the head on the rope. Not a passing motorist for they are all going places and wouldnt stop particularly on a bridge, that leaves someone under the bridge or one of the motorbike cops who patrol the bridge. If one of them saw a rope tied to the bridge he would more than likely stop to have a look, if this is correct once he saw a head on the rope do you think he would have pulled it up for a closer look or remembered some of his training "dont disturbe a crime scene" then got on his radio and called for help? Then who would arrive? The forensic team, in white, and of course the boss cop so he could get his name on the news. If it was someone under the bridge who raised the alarm they would have called the cops with the same result.

For those who still think the head was removed from the body before the head was put in a plastic bag and hung from the bridge, where is all the blood? removing a head is a messy business. And if the head was lowered in a bag how did blood get on the outside of the bridge?

But he was Italian wasnt he so it must have been mafia, If this was the case why was the body so close to the head? If someone had murdered him and wanted to use the head on a rope as a warning or fear factor then dumping the body far from the head would have removed all doubt that it could have been suicide.

Then the murderers paid the police to say right from the start it was murded, Oh Oh something wrong here, must have paid them after the head was found so the cops would change the story to protect those who provided the cash, then there are the forensic team and the hospital to be paid.

Gets more way out the more you look at it dont you think?

Robby, you've definately been watching too many cop shows on tv.

OK - I am terribly sorry for starting the conversation about the rope. I wasn't drawing any conclusion I was just saying that something is a bit fishy here!

There are 3 pictures and each show a different colour rope. One looks blue and white striped, the other red and the other white. One of the pictures is taken in a different place - because there are no street lamps or lamps attached to the railings assuming those are what they are.

I'm suggesting the head was taken up and down several times for the sake of taking pictures - or for other reasons. It also looks like the rope was switched, perhaps explaining the "rope from 7-11" vs the "jungle or climbing rope".

In Thailand i sometimes find people acting suspiciously when there is nothing going on and at other times there can be some outrageous lie, conspiracy etc and they can keep a totally straight face - don't you ever feel that you never quite get the full picture!

Edited February 27, 2009 by CrossBones

[neverdie]

xbones,

You are a classic, instead of looking at the simple explanation for these things you go to the hard option.....of course the crime scene was tampered with....it couldnt be the lighting in the pictures that cause the discrepancies you are seeing, could it, that would be too easy. You are entertaining tho. Thanks.

[hhgz]

"There are 3 pictures and each show a different colour rope. One looks blue and white striped, the other red and the other white. One of the pictures is taken in a different place - because there are no street lamps or lamps attached to the railings assuming those are what they are... It also looks like the rope was switched..."

For what reason, just to get you talking about your various conspiracy theories? It would seem very strange that he would have been murdered elsewhere, had his head cut off, and then had his head tied to a rope. That doesn't make sense. What makes even less sense is your conviction that the rope was switched twice.

[neverdie]

^YES, swap the rope for what, move heads for what....with all those witnesses & even the media....SERIOUSLY people

[CrossBones]

xbones,

You are a classic, instead of looking at the simple explanation for these things you go to the hard option.....of course the crime scene was tampered with....it couldnt be the lighting in the pictures that cause the discrepancies you are seeing, could it, that would be too easy. You are entertaining tho. Thanks.

Look a the pictures! A difference in lighting can not make 3 street lamps "move". You can clearly see where the rope is attached to the railings and in one picture there are 2 lamps attached to the railings themselves which couldnt be missed in any picture - and there is another larger streetlamp which i admit could be out of sight of the angle of the other picture!

Anyway I am glad to be of entertainment!