Tired Man.... Just So Tired

[Sheryl]

Yes, it is "alternative" and not supported by medical evidence. Candida is normally present in small amounts in many parts of the body and creates a problem only when it overgrows, which it may do if the immune system is impaired or if something disturbs the normal flora (bacteria et al normally present, which typically exist in a type of balance curtailing each other's growth) as when antibiotics are taken.

It is not present, at all, in the blood stream of a healthy person; when candida is in the blood it is a life-threatening condition, one sledom encountered in people with healthy immune systems.

The idea that an undetectable candida infection is causing a wide raneg of symptoms does not hold up to scientfic scrutiny.

That said, the programs presectribed for this supposed condition generally involve complete exclusion of processed carbs, a helpful and healthful measure which may indeed imrove energy and relieve or reduce various symptoms. And some people find a fast to be useful as a way to kick start significant changes in diet such as getting off of sugars/processed carbs.

[Deksan]

Not sure if it has been brought out, but I have ever read that noisy environment can prevent you to get a good sleep time even if you are sleeping. If you live in a noisy area like bkk in the morning maybe youare sleeping but you arent resting ?

[bodypaul]

Luang I don't think you have mentioned your weight. Are you overweight? Perhaps all you need is to eat a good regular diet with at least 5-6 small meals a day. Cut down on the alcohol with minimum hard licquor! Exercise more!

[fullwhenempty]

No offence meant FWE, but the more research i do, the more i hear suggestions that Candida is nothing more than a scam. Was the term even initially constructed (construed) by some 'alternative (?) therapy company? Not that i'm being cautious at all

Only asking, by the way!

Ask away.

The more research you do, the more you will find that EVERYTHING is considered a scam by someone. It's obviously very confusing for us laymen and keeps us sucking at the corporate health tit. There are a mountain of sites asserting that candida overgrowth exists and causes a variety of problems. A good place to start is the pubmed site... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

Simoncini, an Italian oncologist (cancer specialist), claims that candida albicans is always present in every tumour he sees. He's been canned for not staying 'on message' (as mavericks usually are). Do a search for 'cancer is a fungus'. Some arthritis specialists claim that candida is always present in arthritics. Do a search for 'candida always present in arthritis'.

Is Candida a scam? Aren't eczema, psoriasis, jock itch, vaginal thrush (which often keeps returning suggesting systemic overgrowth), oral thrush, 'athlete's foot', all manifestations of fungus? If they are not fungal, why do anti-fungals cure them?

What about the use of anti-biotics? If it is true that Candida survives anti-biotics, where beneficial flora do not, then logic says Candida will flourish and overgrow since there are less beneficial bacteria to keep it under control. This study endorses this view http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1269125...=pmtitlesearch4

Why do some authors tell us that 'leaky gut' is caused by candida burrowing into the gut wall and when it dies off it leave small holes? Is this correct? This study certainly recognizes the existence of 'leaky gut' http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1911240...Pubmed_RVDocSum

Ayurvedic teaching and practice fully recognize Candida overgrowth as a serious medical issue. Since Ayurvedic medicine is fully supported by the Indian government and the WHO, I'm onboard.

You can search for 'candida albicans', 'candida overgrowth', 'candida arthritis' and so on, on the pubmed site.

Hope that helps you.

[Sheryl]

Is Candida a scam? Aren't eczema, psoriasis, jock itch, vaginal thrush (which often keeps returning suggesting systemic overgrowth), oral thrush, 'athlete's foot', all manifestations of fungus? If they are not fungal, why do anti-fungals cure them?

Eczema and psoriasis are not fungal conditions nor do they respond to anti-fungals.

Athlete's foot and jock itch are fungal but not due to Candida; they are due to tinea pedis and tinea cruris respectively.

Thrush is a candidal infection of the mouth. Candidal infections of the vagina are very common in women. Candidal overgrowth is also common on the skin especially in moist skin folds.

There is no question that candidal overgrowth occurs (often but not only due to use of antiobiotics) frequently in skin and mucous membranes. It can also occur in the gut but that is less common. And systemic candidiasis is quite rare (and life-threatening).

What is very questionable is the assertion that people who are not critically ill and have no candidial overgrowth in any of the locations where it most commonly occurs are nonetheless harboring a candidal overgrowth somewhere where it cannot be objectively found...and furthermore that a host of symptoms are due to it. Symptoms which, oddly enough are not usually seen in patients with clearly demonstrated candidal infections of the mouth, skin, vagina etc.

There is nothing at all in ancient Ayurvedic literatire about candidia. The notion that hidden candida infections where common and caused a varuiety of systemic symptoms started in the 1970's with the publication of a book and has since become part of the reptoire of Western-style "detox" programs etc. Many of them talk about treating the supposed problem with "ayurvedic" methods but that does not mean that either the diagnosis or what they presecribe necessarily conform to true Ayurvedic teaching.

[fullwhenempty]

Is Candida a scam? Aren't eczema, psoriasis, jock itch, vaginal thrush (which often keeps returning suggesting systemic overgrowth), oral thrush, 'athlete's foot', all manifestations of fungus? If they are not fungal, why do anti-fungals cure them?

Eczema and psoriasis are not fungal conditions nor do they respond to anti-fungals.

Athlete's foot and jock itch are fungal but not due to Candida; they are due to tinea pedis and tinea cruris respectively.

Thrush is a candidal infection of the mouth. Candidal infections of the vagina are very common in women. Candidal overgrowth is also common on the skin especially in moist skin folds.

There is no question that candidal overgrowth occurs (often but not only due to use of antiobiotics) frequently in skin and mucous membranes. It can also occur in the gut but that is less common. And systemic candidiasis is quite rare (and life-threatening).

What is very questionable is the assertion that people who are not critically ill and have no candidial overgrowth in any of the locations where it most commonly occurs are nonetheless harboring a candidal overgrowth somewhere where it cannot be objectively found...and furthermore that a host of symptoms are due to it. Symptoms which, oddly enough are not usually seen in patients with clearly demonstrated candidal infections of the mouth, skin, vagina etc.

There is nothing at all in ancient Ayurvedic literatire about candidia. The notion that hidden candida infections where common and caused a varuiety of systemic symptoms started in the 1970's with the publication of a book and has since become part of the reptoire of Western-style "detox" programs etc. Many of them talk about treating the supposed problem with "ayurvedic" methods but that does not mean that either the diagnosis or what they presecribe necessarily conform to true Ayurvedic teaching.

Thank you Sheryl. Interesting reply.

I'm impressed with your Ayurvedic statement. No offence but how do you know this? I have an Ayurvedic Encyclopedia-cum-student manual, which has many references to Candida, so you have me curious to know more. Could it be that the ancients called it 'ama' rather than candida which sounds like a modern name anyway?

One of its assertions is that Candida can move out of the GI tract and once it is in the blood it can manifest anywhere. Can it?

I have had repeated atopic eczema and experimented with raw coconut oil, sesame oil, hydrogen peroxide and colloidal silver with good results each time. They are all claimed to be anti-fungal, anti-bacterial and anti-viral. If the causes for eczema are still unknown, (according to Wiki) then why not candida or another fungus?

I was very much caught by Simoncini's claims about candida always being present with cancer. I know the official line is to shun his claims but do you have a personal view?

Edited September 28, 2009 by fullwhenempty

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Ama is/are just residues that build up in the body and my reading is that it encompasses many modern maladies like candida, fungus, acidosis, mucus, salts, heavy metal toxicity etc. Ama tends to refer to substances in the body that are existing in an incomplete state or transformation. My best guess would just be Ama is toxicity which encompasses a lot.

No doubt burning off toxic residues in the body will be of great benefit in restoring health.

Simoncini ?? I would do some research on him before buying into his theories. I will refrain from calling him a dangerous fraud but he is wanted on manslaughter or something charges for killing someone in europe with his intervenous treatments. He may be on to something but I think its a bit cloudy now.

[Luang]

Well, someone reminded me of this post today with the same problem so i thought i would re-ignite it so to speak.

Fatigue is still as severe as ever (18 months-ish now) and no further to the truth.

Thyroid replacement did not remedy symptoms.

Some suggessted depression - been doing vigorous physical training for 2-3 months, aroung 5 days/wk which has had zero effect on the fatigue which i would expect if the underlying cause was some form of clinical depression. I may be wrong of course. Alcohol consumption lowered considerably.

I can sleep 10 hrs at the weekend/hols and guaranteed sometime later in the day i will be as fatigued as always.

So here we are, no wiser........anyone anymore ideas?

Are there any infections that would cause 18 month chronic fatigue?

Thanks all,Luang

.

[WarpSpeed]

Luang I don't think you have mentioned your weight. Are you overweight? Perhaps all you need is to eat a good regular diet with at least 5-6 small meals a day. Cut down on the alcohol with minimum hard licquor! Exercise more!

Yes and if so sleep apnea, not sleeping as well as he may think, often overlooked in diagnosis but you also don't have to be terribly overweight to have this condition..

Forgot the link Sleep apnea can change your life

Just read your update above and it sounds more like sleep apnea then ever.. People who have this have no idea it is happening you just never get good sleep though you think you are, and have to take naps etc..It can do your heart damage too so it's something to get taken care of..

Check it out could be a simple fix good luck and pleasant dreams..

Edited September 20, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[spud1]

I know it sounds simple but do you think it may be the climate having an effect on you.I have no where near the energy levels has when I lived back in the UK.

[Luang]

Luang I don't think you have mentioned your weight. Are you overweight? Perhaps all you need is to eat a good regular diet with at least 5-6 small meals a day. Cut down on the alcohol with minimum hard licquor! Exercise more!

Yes and if so sleep apnea, not sleeping as well as he may think, often overlooked in diagnosis but you also don't have to be terribly overweight to have this condition..

Forgot the link Sleep apnea can change your life

Just read your update above and it sounds more like sleep apnea then ever.. People who have this have no idea it is happening you just never get good sleep though you think you are, and have to take naps etc..It can do your heart damage too so it's something to get taken care of..

Check it out could be a simple fix good luck and pleasant dreams..

I've researched the symptoms and they just don't fit. Idon't wake in the night, no sweats, i don't generally snore and i'm not overweight so i don't think it should be at the top of the list. Thanks though and will keep it on my mental list of possibles.

[Luang]

I know it sounds simple but do you think it may be the climate having an effect on you.I have no where near the energy levels has when I lived back in the UK.

No spud, if anything i feel i have acclimatised. The fatigue builds up to a point where i can't get up from the sofa/bed so i think it's probably something more sinister than that.

[Taro]

I was suffering from extreme fatigue and it turned out that I had anemia. Not from low iron but from lack of vitamin B12. Started taking a combination B6/B12 supplement (not a multivitamin) and it solved the problem in a couple of weeks. You might want to look into that.

[Sheryl]

If you read the earlier posts, anemia has been ruled out already. Along with a host of other things/

Luang sorry to hear your situation hasn't improved. After 18 months it is pretty well down to "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome" or depression.

There is a lot of speculation and ongoing research around possible linkages between various infections and CFS, but nothing conclusive yet AFAIK.

If your fatigue gets dramatically worse with exercise/physical exertion, that's a distinguishing feature of CFS.

If on the other hand exercise makes no difference, or even makes you briefly feel a bit better, that would be more consistent with depression. I forget if you have at any point had a trial of anti-depressive meds?

Only thing else that comes to mind is possible testosterone deficiency. If along with this fatigue there has been a marked decline in libido (sexual desire) then it may be wort having your levels checked.

[Taro]

But anemia due to iron deficiency is not the same kind as anemia due to B12 deficiency. It doesn't show the same way in blood tests and it might be missed if they're not looking spefically for that.

[Sheryl]

Pernicious anemia (the anemia due to B12 deficiency) causes a megoblastic anemia which would be evident on a full blood count which I believe the OP has had. If you want to check this, Luang, see if your CBC (Complete Blood Count) report shows values for "MCV" and "MCHC". If it does and these are normal, there is no indication for further work up for pernicious anemia. If by chance it does not, it wouldn't hurt to get a repeat test specifying a full CBC inclusive of these parameters.

[Luang]

Pernicious anemia (the anemia due to B12 deficiency) causes a megoblastic anemia which would be evident on a full blood count which I believe the OP has had. If you want to check this, Luang, see if your CBC (Complete Blood Count) report shows values for "MCV" and "MCHC". If it does and these are normal, there is no indication for further work up for pernicious anemia. If by chance it does not, it wouldn't hurt to get a repeat test specifying a full CBC inclusive of these parameters.

Sheryl/Taro,

MCV AND MCHC were indeed normal (though MCHC was at 34.2 with lab range 31-35).

Sheryl, as you suggested i don't get affected negatively with excercise, the opposite. Regarding depression, wouldn't i feel at least some (if not significant) improvement with the physical training i am doing now? It has had zero positive affect on the fatigue besides my own fitness levels. The fatigue is just as it has always been, absolutely no change at all. Also, i don,t have feelings of apathy etc atypical of depression. Again, i'm ok in my life and have drive etc, just need to get rid of this dam_n fatigue fog. Not throwing the idea out as such, just doesn't seem typical depression to me. Isn't it more a feeling of lethargy than chronic bouts of fatigue?

Thanks for everyones input again and keep any ideas coming.

Luang

[Sheryl]

Regarding depression, wouldn't i feel at least some (if not significant) improvement with the physical training i am doing now? It has had zero positive affect on the fatigue besides my own fitness levels. The fatigue is just as it has always been, absolutely no change at all. Also, i don,t have feelings of apathy etc atypical of depression. Again, i'm ok in my life and have drive etc, just need to get rid of this dam_n fatigue fog. Not throwing the idea out as such, just doesn't seem typical depression to me. Isn't it more a feeling of lethargy than chronic bouts of fatigue?

Thanks for everyones input again and keep any ideas coming.

Luang

Not everyone with depression feels better after exercise, that would not rule depression out as a cause.

Have you checked your testosterone levels?

And, do you consume much processed sugar? As this plays havoc with insulin and blood sugar levels in ways that affect neurotransmitters. Large amounts of caffeine can also do this.

If your testosterone is normal and are already on a diet that is relatively free of processed sugars and no excessive caffeine consumption then -- and assuming no medical contraindications to it -- I suggest you consult a physician about taking an SSRI (anti-depressent such as sertraline). If your problem is due to low levels of serotonin, for whatever reason, this will make you feel better.

If you go that route, be sure to read up first on contraindications and side effects. Should also be sure baseline liver and kidney function normal (true for just about any long-term med) and recheck liver function (AST/ALT) say 3 months after starting just to be on the safe side.

But do check your testosterone. Because what you describe sounds exactly like what many women experience at menopause/peri-menopause. From what I gather -- although not much info out on the subject, it's only just starting to be recognized -- the symptoms of "male menopause" are similiar. (Menopause is a misnomer of course, and an important difference between men and women is that while menopause occurs in all women, symptoms due to a significant drop in sex hormones occur in only a minority of men. Some say 5%, some say more like 25%, but for sure not most).

[tim armstrong]

Late seeing this one. But maybe I missed any mention of nutrition, specifically lack of protein. Do you have a healthy diet ? ie, more protein, less carbs, vegies, fruit, more water less alcohol. A high carb. regime really makes me tired. Exercise? smoking? Agree with Sheryl's earlier comment - go and have a comprehensive check up. But also look for the obvious- like diet, exercise, sleep, alcohol,stress about work, money, relationships.

[mrtoad]

Late seeing this one. But maybe I missed any mention of nutrition, specifically lack of protein. Do you have a healthy diet ? ie, more protein, less carbs, vegies, fruit, more water less alcohol. A high carb. regime really makes me tired. Exercise? smoking? Agree with Sheryl's earlier comment - go and have a comprehensive check up. But also look for the obvious- like diet, exercise, sleep, alcohol,stress about work, money, relationships.

Agreed Tim, it's like a checklist - you need to check off certain things - and one of the first things to do is go and get a comprehensive physical check up including Liver Function test. After that, if that look's fine then there are the other "social" factors that need to be taken into consideration along with the usual's - diet, exercise, breathing and sleep, which all experienced healthcare professionals should be inquiring about.

[Taro]

Do you have dogs? Last month, I was bit by a tick and ended up with lyme disease. If you catch it early, like in my case, they'll put you on antibiotics and you'll be fine. However, one of the symptoms of lyme disease is extreme fatigue. I'm ok now but for about 10 days, I had a really hard time doing anything. The simplest way I can explain it is that it felt like when you don't sleep for a day or two. Not only your body is tired, but your brain is fuzzy too.

[james24]

I get this when alot too. The best thing is, believe it or not, waking up early.

Snacking rather than full blown meals help, stay away from that reverse osmosis water and buy water that has its natural vits still in it, dont keep the fan on you all day as when you get cold your muscles tense up trying to keep you warm and this will knacker you out, if you can do some meditation and last but by no means least dont waste your life on things that make you unhappy e.g worrying what Thais think of you, I did this b4 and believe me that really is tiring.

I had a friend who couldnt get motivated and was studying for some sort of exam in finance. He used to say it was Thailand but at first found it hard to believe. He moved to Malaysia and apparently is now sitting the second test with ease on passing the first one. I have to be honest, everytime I leave Thailand I do feel a hel_l of alot more energised.

[WarpSpeed]

Luang I don't think you have mentioned your weight. Are you overweight? Perhaps all you need is to eat a good regular diet with at least 5-6 small meals a day. Cut down on the alcohol with minimum hard licquor! Exercise more!

Yes and if so sleep apnea, not sleeping as well as he may think, often overlooked in diagnosis but you also don't have to be terribly overweight to have this condition..

Forgot the link Sleep apnea can change your life

Just read your update above and it sounds more like sleep apnea then ever.. People who have this have no idea it is happening you just never get good sleep though you think you are, and have to take naps etc..It can do your heart damage too so it's something to get taken care of..

Check it out could be a simple fix good luck and pleasant dreams..

I've researched the symptoms and they just don't fit. Idon't wake in the night, no sweats, i don't generally snore and i'm not overweight so i don't think it should be at the top of the list. Thanks though and will keep it on my mental list of possibles.

You don't have any idea if you're waking with this condition it's a subtle disturbance due to interrupted breathing that is a major part of it's insidious nature, it's not a conscious waking just not a deep REM sleep is ever attained. You have to be observed while sleeping by professionals in a controlled environ to be properly diagnosed.. JFYI Symptoms are just that, symptoms, and not all are applicable in every case they are general in nature.. As I said you don't need to be overweight either as it is due to your uvula in the back of throat relaxing during sleep and closing off the air way, it just happens to be more likely if you are overweight due to the narrowing of the air way caused by fat deposits.. I'd not discount it just based on some Internet information without a professional assessment....

Edited October 24, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[tourleadersi]

Luang I don't think you have mentioned your weight. Are you overweight? Perhaps all you need is to eat a good regular diet with at least 5-6 small meals a day. Cut down on the alcohol with minimum hard licquor! Exercise more!

Yes and if so sleep apnea, not sleeping as well as he may think, often overlooked in diagnosis but you also don't have to be terribly overweight to have this condition..

Forgot the link Sleep apnea can change your life

Just read your update above and it sounds more like sleep apnea then ever.. People who have this have no idea it is happening you just never get good sleep though you think you are, and have to take naps etc..It can do your heart damage too so it's something to get taken care of..

Check it out could be a simple fix good luck and pleasant dreams..

I've researched the symptoms and they just don't fit. Idon't wake in the night, no sweats, i don't generally snore and i'm not overweight so i don't think it should be at the top of the list. Thanks though and will keep it on my mental list of possibles.

You don't have any idea if you're waking with this condition it's a subtle disturbance due to interrupted breathing that is a major part of it's insidious nature, it's not a conscious waking just not a deep REM sleep is ever attained. You have to be observed while sleeping by professionals in a controlled environ to be properly diagnosed.. JFYI Symptoms are just that, symptoms, and not all are applicable in every case they are general in nature.. As I said you don't need to be overweight either as it is due to your uvula in the back of throat relaxing during sleep and closing off the air way, it just happens to be more likely if you are overweight due to the narrowing of the air way caused by fat deposits.. I'd not discount it just based on some Internet information without a professional assessment....

Had a friend who suffered from terrible fatique, so went to a sleep clinic for all the tests. They determined that he was getting approximately 30 - 45 minutes of beneficial sleep per night and gave him a 'throat splint' to wear at night. Within 48 hours he was a new man, full of life and energy. After 18 months of looking at everything else Luang, wouldnt it be worth visiting a sleep clinic to rule it out as a possibility?

[WarpSpeed]

My thoughts exactly.... It's painless, easy and inexpensive could be the source of all problems..

I don't remember now if the Op had considered any cardiac tests either as that is a symptom of potential heart issues but I'd certainly opt for the sleep apnea tests first..

Be nice to hear back from the OP with an update it's been months now.. Beginning to wonder how sincere?

Edited December 14, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[Luang]

Well, still no formal diagnosis (yet) but i have a strong idea that you guys in the 'Sleep Apnea' corner may be correct!

For some months now i have had blocked airways and a dry mouth, with mid or early morning awakenings. Initially i put this down to the aircon,/dry air but i'm now doubting this due to a key fact i never gave much thought to earlier - a previous nasal fracture! One nostril is blocked much of the time due to the fracture and i guess the other one is drying out as i sleep. Hence the dry mouth and waking up. Obviously feeling unrefreshed and chronically fatigued daily would give further credence to this , yes?

I never really considered this earlier as i didn't have (or notice) the airways/breathing problem but maybe it has been there all the time and it has just been doing enough to disrupt my REM without other obvious symptoms.

Obviously until diagnosed AND treated i'm still guessing, so next step is a sleep study and then if confirmed i will need nasal constructive surgery. Does this sound about right? I hope i am seeing some light at the end of the sleepy tunnel here and thanks again to all you guy's who have offered advice and suggestions :jap:

So, next question to you good folks is, do you have any suggestions re. a sleep study clinic? Also i have found this can be done at home and not sure if all the required tests and analysis would be the same as a hospital stay, so if anyone has first hand experience they can share then that would be great!

Thanks again.

Luang.

[Luang]

Well, still no formal diagnosis (yet) but i have a strong idea that you guys in the 'Sleep Apnea' corner may be correct!

For some months now i have had blocked airways and a dry mouth, with mid or early morning awakenings. Initially i put this down to the aircon,/dry air but i'm now doubting this due to a key fact i never gave much thought to earlier - a previous nasal fracture! One nostril is blocked much of the time due to the fracture and i guess the other one is drying out as i sleep. Hence the dry mouth and waking up. Obviously feeling unrefreshed and chronically fatigued daily would give further credence to this , yes?

I never really considered this earlier as i didn't have (or notice) the airways/breathing problem but maybe it has been there all the time and it has just been doing enough to disrupt my REM without other obvious symptoms.

Obviously until diagnosed AND treated i'm still guessing, so next step is a sleep study and then if confirmed i will need nasal constructive surgery. Does this sound about right? I hope i am seeing some light at the end of the sleepy tunnel here and thanks again to all you guy's who have offered advice and suggestions :jap:

So, next question to you good folks is, do you have any suggestions re. a sleep study clinic? Also i have found this can be done at home and not sure if all the required tests and analysis would be the same as a hospital stay, so if anyone has first hand experience they can share then that would be great!

Thanks again.

Luang.

Well, now confirmed i have 'mild' obstructive sleep Apnea. Index score was around 6 with REM sleep index around 10 (for those who know what i'm talking about). I guess the nasal fracture is the culprit.

For those with any knowledge do you think ....a) that 'mild' apnea will likely cause 'chronic' fatigue? (I know it will cause fatigue of sorts but would such cause very chronic levels of fatigue or am i likely to be looking for something else also?) and Anyone know if an operation on the fracture (very old injury) is likely to stop the apneas?

I see the sleep specialist to interpret/evaluate results at the weekend, but i'm impatient and keen to hear from any others who have had similar.

Thanks,

Luang.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Luang