What Is Your Property In Case Of A Condominium?

[coalminer]

I was a month ago on summer holiday at Jomtien Beach and noticed the low prices of condominiiums.

At these low prices, I would like to invest in a Condominium.

But I have no clue what rights the owner of a condominium has.

I know already the repeated to dead "don't invest in anything in Thailand that ...."?

So, these replies can be spared here.

What I want to know is:

- if the Condominium should tumble down, what rights do the (fahrang) owner has on the land?

- if the owner of the Condominiums is not complying with the maintenance, what rights do the (fahrang) owner have to force this upon the owner?

- etc...

Also, an important question is: Why are the Condominium prices so low when the Baht is stronger than ever.

A particular Condomimium, "the Spanish Condominiun" is publishing in their website from a few years ago prices from +1,5 milj. where now they are seilling the same NEW Condominiums for prices starting 450,000 Baht.

Something sounds fishy here.

[Boater]

A particular Condomimium, "the Spanish Condominiun" is publishing in their website from a few years ago prices from +1,5 milj. where now they are seilling the same NEW Condominiums for prices starting 450,000 Baht.

same quiltiy?

[trogers]

I think you probably misread their advert. The Bt450,000 is probably the deposit payment, not the total price.

[coalminer]

I think you probably misread their advert. The Bt450,000 is probably the deposit payment, not the total price.

I think that you (and some others) need to read my OP again.

About the price of the condo, I have the folder with me and they are selling a new condo for about 450,000 Baht (ground floor) to 640,000 Baht (4th floor = top floor).

BTW, if you do a search in Thaivisa about the "Spanish Condominium", you will read that this price is brought up a few times.

Anyhow, wether the price of the condominium is "x" Baht or not doesn't answer the question in my OP.

[think_too_mut]

I think you probably misread their advert. The Bt450,000 is probably the deposit payment, not the total price.

I think that you (and some others) need to read my OP again.

About the price of the condo, I have the folder with me and they are selling a new condo for about 450,000 Baht (ground floor) to 640,000 Baht (4th floor = top floor).

BTW, if you do a search in Thaivisa about the "Spanish Condominium", you will read that this price is brought up a few times.

Anyhow, wether the price of the condominium is "x" Baht or not doesn't answer the question in my OP.

A friend, who had seen some ad for Spanish Condoiminium was with me in the car, along the Sukhumvit, when we approached the place and he saw where it is and what it looks like (from 50m distance) said - no need to have a look.

[coalminer]

A friend, who had seen some ad for Spanish Condoiminium was with me in the car, along the Sukhumvit, when we approached the place and he saw where it is and what it looks like (from 50m distance) said - no need to have a look.

In case of the "Spanish Condominium" I have to agree with your friend for the full 100%.

I looked at their website and was impressed by the condomiums they offer.

But when I was there, it was not even by far the same as the pictures.

There were no guards anymore, the swimming pool looked like a pond for fishes, the buildings were old and without maintenance, etc.

But if one looks at the websites of the Property sellers, you will notice that the prices of Condominiums and other properties are in a free fall.

I went with a salesgirl to visit a condominium on Jomtien Beach which was completely furbished and would be sold initially for 850,000 Baht, but the girl agreed to sell it for 750,000 Baht if I would sing the contract at the same day.

Similar condo's in the same building were sold 2 years ago for double the price and even more.

[justcruisin]

What I want to know is:

- if the Condominium should tumble down, what rights do the (fahrang) owner has on the land?

- if the owner of the Condominiums is not complying with the maintenance, what rights do the (fahrang) owner have to force this upon the owner?

- etc...

-In my interpretation/understanding of the condominium act of thailand the foreign owner has no rights whatsoever over the land,except as

part of the common area of a building.IE: In a 50 unit building the share or cost to 1 unit is 1/50th of the total of the land.

-The Act was updated late last year which gives the management,rights to restrict use of facilities and the right to disconect services (water and electric)

to a particular unit if they dont pay body corporate and sinking fund levys.This is a step forward to maintain the building integrity.

-If the juristic managment are not maintaing the building to an acceptable standard they can be voted out by the residents and replaced.

It is probably in your best interest to purchase a condo that has close to 49% foreign ownership for this reason.

Rich

[coalminer]

-In my interpretation/understanding of the condominium act of thailand the foreign owner has no rights whatsoever over the land,except as

part of the common area of a building.IE: In a 50 unit building the share or cost to 1 unit is 1/50th of the total of the land.

Rich

Thanks for your answer, Rich.

What I don't understand is following:

Reading your answer, the foreign owner has the equal share to 1 unit of "the land".

Does this means that the foreign owner owns actually that equal share (1/50 of the land in your example)?

Another thing is the interpretation of "the land".

Suppose that a Condo's footprint measures 100m x 25m, but the total land on where the Condominium is built on measures 500m x 500m.

Is the equal share a share of the footprint of the condo or a share of the total land on which the condo is built?

[DrDave]

...

What I want to know is:

- if the Condominium should tumble down, what rights do the (fahrang) owner has on the land?

- if the owner of the Condominiums is not complying with the maintenance, what rights do the (fahrang) owner have to force this upon the owner?

- etc...

I think most answers to your questions can be found in the text of the "Revised Condominium Act of 2551". Take a look at sections 34, 50 and 18. Copies can be found at numerous websites, such as the Pattaya Expats Club, and http://mythaicondo.com

[donx]

-In my interpretation/understanding of the condominium act of thailand the foreign owner has no rights whatsoever over the land,except as

part of the common area of a building.IE: In a 50 unit building the share or cost to 1 unit is 1/50th of the total of the land.

Rich

Thanks for your answer, Rich.

What I don't understand is following:

Reading your answer, the foreign owner has the equal share to 1 unit of "the land".

Does this means that the foreign owner owns actually that equal share (1/50 of the land in your example)?

Another thing is the interpretation of "the land".

Suppose that a Condo's footprint measures 100m x 25m, but the total land on where the Condominium is built on measures 500m x 500m.

Is the equal share a share of the footprint of the condo or a share of the total land on which the condo is built?

Think about the question you just asked. For most condominium developments, the total square meters of land is much less than the total square meters of space of all the condominium units. So the land ownership is proportional to the ownership % of the condo unit. Remember also that the 49% foreign ownership rule is based upon square meters not number of units. The total number of foreign owned units could be much less than 49% of the units (49 units in project of 100 units) especially when the foreign owned units are larger units. If your unit is 100 square meters and the total number of square meters for all of the units equals 10,000 square meters, then your unit represents 1% of the total square meters of the condo development. If the size of the land is 5,000 square meters, then you own 1% of that land which will be 50 square meters. But this is shared ownership, so its not like "I own the 50 meters of land under the lobby".

[thaiwanderer]

I was a month ago on summer holiday at Jomtien Beach and noticed the low prices of condominiiums.

At these low prices, I would like to invest in a Condominium.

But I have no clue what rights the owner of a condominium has.

- knowing your rights is just one of a set of things that need to be considered before giving the investment a true value in your mind - comparing current prices with those previously / suspected future values for the same area etc. or comparing with other 'property' abroad without such range of knowledge is comparing apples and oranges and (just to throw in another metaphor for the sake of it) deciding its a 'good investment' or a 'good place' to live without this is cart before horse

I know already the repeated to dead "don't invest in anything in Thailand that ...."?

So, these replies can be spared here.

- can understand you want specific advice but there are grains of truth in all such sayings

What I want to know is:

- if the Condominium should tumble down, what rights do the (fahrang) owner has on the land?

- shared ownership with other unit owners according to floor space - you'd have to do the sums but even at a fire sale price your share of the sale of the land in the event of a building collapse or whatever may be scant reward

- if the owner of the Condominiums is not complying with the maintenance, what rights do the (fahrang) owner have to force this upon the owner?

- etc...

-as others have said read condo act and then think how it will actually work in practice - there are mechanisms to force / cajole a unit owner to stump up maintenance fees etc. but if the money is not forthcoming as and when needed (and more than one tardy unit owner) the others will likely have to dig deeper in order to protect their shared interests

Also, an important question is: Why are the Condominium prices so low when the Baht is stronger than ever.

- vague question, variety of reasons and as with all real estate you may or may not ever find the real reason something is priced as it is - is it a genuine / market reasons for it being 'low' or is it in fact overvalued

A particular Condomimium, "the Spanish Condominiun" is publishing in their website from a few years ago prices from +1,5 milj. where now they are seilling the same NEW Condominiums for prices starting 450,000 Baht.

Something sounds fishy here.

-as above, but i would lean to the fishy 'sound'

posting here is part of it but should not of course be the end of it the key with anything is research if you are unsure but if its only 450k?

[coalminer]

I think most answers to your questions can be found in the text of the "Revised Condominium Act of 2551". Take a look at sections 34, 50 and 18. Copies can be found at numerous websites, such as the Pattaya Expats Club, and http://mythaicondo.com

Nice link DrDave.

Why doesn't ThaiVisa has a copy of the Condominium Act as a Pinned Item?

Thanks.

[coalminer]

Think about the question you just asked.

Yes, I think about the question I just asked and read in a reply from Thaiwanderer " shared ownership with other unit owners according to FLOOR SPACE".

This is NOT the total space of the project but only the footprint of your builing.

[coalminer]

- knowing your rights is just one of a set of things that need to be considered before giving the investment a true value in your mind

That's why I asked here some specific questions about the most critical points on my mind.

- shared ownership with other unit owners according to floor space - you'd have to do the sums but even at a fire sale price your share of the sale of the land in the event of a building collapse or whatever may be scant reward[/i]

So, almost Zero return if the buidling collpases due to bad management.

-as others have said read condo act and then think how it will actually work in practice - there are mechanisms to force / cajole a unit owner to stump up maintenance fees etc. but if the money is not forthcoming as and when needed (and more than one tardy unit owner) the others will likely have to dig deeper in order to protect their shared interests

Yes, there are mechanisms in force to give a Condominium owner more "power".

But these mechanisms don't reeally protect anybody if the Project owner is unwilling or neglect his property.

posting here is part of it but should not of course be the end of it the key with anything is research if you are unsure but if its only 450k?

Posting here (or in another forums) is the start to not to not go ahead foolishly and start whining afterwards.

It's only 450K Baht, but can anybody afford to throw away 450K Baht?

Better informing than spending foolishly.

The story of people having lost their investment is too many to fall in the same trap again.....

[donx]

Think about the question you just asked.

Yes, I think about the question I just asked and read in a reply from Thaiwanderer " shared ownership with other unit owners according to FLOOR SPACE".

This is NOT the total space of the project but only the footprint of your builing.

FLOOR SPACE isn't FOOTPRINT.

[thaiwanderer]

Posting here (or in another forums) is the start to not to not go ahead foolishly and start whining afterwards.

It's only 450K Baht, but can anybody afford to throw away 450K Baht?

Better informing than spending foolishly.

The story of people having lost their investment is too many to fall in the same trap again.....

of course, good luck

[pkrv]

What I want to know is:

- if the Condominium should tumble down, what rights do the (fahrang) owner has on the land?

- if the owner of the Condominiums is not complying with the maintenance, what rights do the (fahrang) owner have to force this upon the owner?

- etc...

I can help her. For my condo I own 0.26% of all communal assets including the land. The penthouses own roughly 1%, it is sort of pro rata, based on I think quiksilva defines this as the total amount of saleable space. If you don't pay your maintenance bills, water and electricity tend to get cut off by Juristic.

[TerryTibbs]

Something like the brand new LK Legend complex behind the Spanish condos is a much safer bet IMO. As half the complex is a 5 star hotel it is in the managements interest to keep the 'whole' complex looking ship shape for repeat and new customers wanting to book a fortnights holiday or whatever. Complexes without the facilities of a 5 star hotel that solely rely on sales or rentals are limited to income (profits) so cut backs on maintenance are inevitable. From 35,000 per square meter I think its value for money and in a fantastic position away from any noise but a stones throw away from the action. This is purely an example of alternatives to buying condos in a complex that have no real need to maintain the place once they are sold out.

>>>A particular Condomimium, "the Spanish Condominiun" is publishing in their website from a few years ago prices from +1,5 milj. where now they are seilling the same NEW Condominiums for prices starting 450,000 Baht.<<<

Thats all there worth, it looks like a council estate to me.

[trogers]

Something like the brand new LK Legend complex behind the Spanish condos is a much safer bet IMO. As half the complex is a 5 star hotel it is in the managements interest to keep the 'whole' complex looking ship shape for repeat and new customers wanting to book a fortnights holiday or whatever. Complexes without the facilities of a 5 star hotel that solely rely on sales or rentals are limited to income (profits) so cut backs on maintenance are inevitable. From 35,000 per square meter I think its value for money and in a fantastic position away from any noise but a stones throw away from the action. This is purely an example of alternatives to buying condos in a complex that have no real need to maintain the place once they are sold out.

>>>A particular Condomimium, "the Spanish Condominiun" is publishing in their website from a few years ago prices from +1,5 milj. where now they are seilling the same NEW Condominiums for prices starting 450,000 Baht.<<<

Thats all there worth, it looks like a council estate to me.

A mixed development usually have grey areas regarding the sharing of cost of estate management and maintenance. How can condo owners feel assured that they are not subsidising the commercial property?

Also, which 'common' areas belong to the condo owners, and which to the commerical property?

Edited May 8, 2009 by trogers

[coalminer]

I can help her. For my condo I own 0.26% of all communal assets including the land. The penthouses own roughly 1%, it is sort of pro rata, based on I think quiksilva defines this as the total amount of saleable space. If you don't pay your maintenance bills, water and electricity tend to get cut off by Juristic.

Thanks for your input 'pkrv'.

This gives a clarification on what a Condominium owner is entitled.

[coalminer]

A mixed development usually have grey areas regarding the sharing of cost of estate management and maintenance. How can condo owners feel assured that they are not subsidising the commercial property?

Also, which 'common' areas belong to the condo owners, and which to the commerical property?

I was thinking exactly the same.

Are the Condo owners not being charged partly for to the commercial property as well?

[DrDave]

A mixed development usually have grey areas regarding the sharing of cost of estate management and maintenance. How can condo owners feel assured that they are not subsidising the commercial property?

Also, which 'common' areas belong to the condo owners, and which to the commerical property?

I was thinking exactly the same.

Are the Condo owners not being charged partly for to the commercial property as well?

I agree - there can be many gray areas with a condominium that contains both residential and commercial space.

When buying a new condominium (from the developer), the sales contract should clearly specify exactly what/where the common areas are. What you'll be interested to know is whether the common areas include the commercial space. If not, then does the contract define the common areas as being co-owned by all units, or just residential units? Further, are the commercial units separately titled, and if so, who owns title to these and do they share in the cost of maintaining the common areas? (Think about restaurants, massage/spa areas, retail shops, tour desks, etc) One thing that's not clear to me is how commercial space is treated if it is not separately titled, and excluded from the common area co-owned by all residential unit owners.

As a residential unit owner, you want to make sure that you're not subsidizing the water, electricity and maintenance of commercial units (which are most likely owned by the developer, who is collecting rent for these, at your expense). If it appears that the commercial space falls within the definition of the common areas, then the residential unit co-owners (via the Juristic Person) should be collecting rent for this space.

[TerryTibbs]

I cant speak for individual property developers but a general rule of thumb would be:

1: The private condo owners have their own committee and administrator and pay into a fund adjusted to personal and not commercial use, the commercial owners have their own committee and the same administrator and they pay the appropriate fees for commercial. Usually a Constitution is written when the property is handed over to the owners this sets out the fees etc and rules for the building etc.

2: If the commercial owners were using the communal areas for their clients then you are going to get wear and tear on a commercial basis rather than just private use of say the swimming pool. So obviously the commercial owners would have to pay a much larger proportion into the fund for repairs etc. All these rules should already be in place and you should be able to get your Lawyer (who ever that maybe) to ask for information, if they are not in place yet you should get your lawyer to make inquires and don't be left behind on whats going on.

That said, it is in my opinion that a luxury Hotel complex with part residential facilities is a better option for one concerned about the upkeep of the whole property over the long term as long as this is made transparent in the contract exactly where everyone stands. Regardless or not whether the swimming pool, gym or sauna for example is used by the commercial clients or the residential clients it is still wear and tear whoever uses these facilities. If the commercial users were not there then there would be more residential users.

[hhgz]

"Reading your answer, the foreign owner has the equal share to 1 unit of "the land".

Does this means that the foreign owner owns actually that equal share (1/50 of the land in your example)?"

No. No person, Thai or farang owns the land. The land is owned by the building, which is a legal entity.

"Another thing is the interpretation of "the land".

Suppose that a Condo's footprint measures 100m x 25m, but the total land on where the Condominium is built on measures 500m x 500m.

Is the equal share a share of the footprint of the condo or a share of the total land on which the condo is built?"

See my response above. When you buy a condo, your voting rights are based on the size of your condo, as a ratio to the entire pool of condos. For example, if your condo is 50 sqm, and the entire salable area is 5000 sqm, your voting rights would be based on the 50/10000 ratio (ie: 0.5%).

You'll pay a monthly condo fee based on the size of your condo. As an example if the condo owners approved a 30THB/sqm/mo fee, you'll pay 1500THB/month.

As directed by the condo owners, the Juristic person is directed to buy goods and services that are required for the condo to operate, whether it's periodic elevator maintenance, daily washing of the windows, or the purchase of required insurance. The insurance coverage specifies what occurs when there is partial damage (for example: a water pipe breaks, and damages your floor), or complete devastation of the building due to a fire. In the later case, the condo owners decide whether the building will be rebuilt, or whether the insurance pays damages to the individual condo owners.

[deprogrammed]

Also, an important question is: Why are the Condominium prices so low when the Baht is stronger than ever.

Because the baht is strong the price of property is more expensive to any ferang /overseas buyer - surely you understand that. Ok an idiots guide: if a condo was say 2 million baht and the Uk pound for eg. was at a previous level of aprrox 67 baht, then that condo would cost approx 30k - at the moment it would cost 40k

Edited May 12, 2009 by deprogrammed

[thaiwanderer]

Also, an important question is: Why are the Condominium prices so low when the Baht is stronger than ever.

Because the baht is strong the price of property is more expensive to any ferang /overseas buyer - surely you understand that. Ok an idiots guide: if a condo was say 2 million baht and the Uk pound for eg. was at a previous level of aprrox 67 baht, then that condo would cost approx 30k - at the moment it would cost 40k

exchange rates over time are not the only variables

[Livinginexile]

I think you probably misread their advert. The Bt450,000 is probably the deposit payment, not the total price.

I think that you (and some others) need to read my OP again.

About the price of the condo, I have the folder with me and they are selling a new condo for about 450,000 Baht (ground floor) to 640,000 Baht (4th floor = top floor).

BTW, if you do a search in Thaivisa about the "Spanish Condominium", you will read that this price is brought up a few times.

Anyhow, wether the price of the condominium is "x" Baht or not doesn't answer the question in my OP.

Mate I have been inside that complex, me and a friend dropped his mate off who rents there.

They are absolute crap, the place looks like it's 20 years old allready.

I you have a glossy in front of you and it looks spanking new, they have touched it up.

Not only that it's about 1 klm from the beach!

Starting at 450K? I tell you, I would not live there if it was free.

[pkrv]

Also, an important question is: Why are the Condominium prices so low when the Baht is stronger than ever.

Because the baht is strong the price of property is more expensive to any ferang /overseas buyer - surely you understand that. Ok an idiots guide: if a condo was say 2 million baht and the Uk pound for eg. was at a previous level of aprrox 67 baht, then that condo would cost approx 30k - at the moment it would cost 40k

exchange rates over time are not the only variables

Correct