Thailand - Tourism Disaster?

[Abrak]

Now everyone knows its proving a bad year for tourism. 5 star hotel occupancy is currently between 15% to 30% in Bangkok, Chiang Mai and Phuket around half normal levels for this time of year. I suspect the lower end of the market is doing a bit better. I dont know the exact numbers but I am sure they will show few tourists and tourists spending less money.

Now it is easy to blame this all on the global recession but there is more going on out there...

Compare this showing record numbers flocking to Bali....

http://indonesia.homesgofast.com/news/bali...s-now-up-I1376/

With this showing arrivals down 25% to Phuket...

http://www.travelfish.org/board/post/trave...met--grim-times

Why should Bali's visitors be at record levels and Phuket's collapsing. Is it simply the politics? Is it the slew of bad press over crime by here?

One hotel owner told me that travel agents 'simply dont market Thailand anymore' and that 'there were just so many alternatives.' Another said there was no sign of there being 'anybody here' for the foreseeable future.

So has Thailand had its 'day in the sunshine' as far as tourism is concerned or is it just a temporary decline due to politics and the economy?

[think_too_mut]

One hotel owner told me that travel agents 'simply dont market Thailand anymore' and that 'there were just so many alternatives.' Another said there was no sign of there being 'anybody here' for the foreseeable future.

Of course, rather not market Thailand than answering "What happens if I get stranded at a Thai airport" with "You are on your own. unless or until Oz government sends C-130 Herculeses to evacuate you".

[Pierrot]

Flights from Hong Kong to Bangkok have been cut by half, a deeper cut than any other destination in SE Asia. When most of the flight used to be over booked, they are now usually no more than 50 to 70% full and mostly by packaged tours from China.

[apetley]

You know it's bad when my local Tourist Police friend says that he is bored with next to nothing to do!

He calls it the 'low low season'.

Kanchanaburi seems almost devoid of tourists these past few weeks.

[jumnien]

No reason to lament the loss of a bunch of farang tourists. Let's just enjoy the relative peace and ease of living again here in the land of smiles.

[sanook2me]

You know it's bad when my local Tourist Police friend says that he is bored with next to nothing to do!

He calls it the 'low low season'.

Kanchanaburi seems almost devoid of tourists these past few weeks.

Thats good to know I'm going up there for a few days to relax this week - no tourists....flipping marvelous...cannot wait..

so quiet and relaxed...be able to book a grotty floating shed for a few days and drop my rod in the water...

lack of tourists is bad I know and i feel sorry for people whose lively hood is based for tourists but my life does not depend on them so i will enjoy the lack of them

[JR Texas]

There are many reasons for the decline. Unless you are willing to think on multiple levels, you will not reach the answer. The downturn is not only due to the airport event. It goes much deeper:

1) Xenophobia has increased dramatically in the country (seemed to start with TOXIN)

2) The xenophobia was linked to anti-foreigner visa/business rules, making Thailand less than desirable as an expat retirement country and tourist destination

3) The Dept. of Tourism decided to do something incredibly stupid: tell the world they only want quality (high income) tourists....tourists that typically make up only a small fraction of any tourism industry. Countries with thriving tourism industries (e.g., Bali) want all tourists....low income, middle income, and high income.

4) The govt. has done nothing to address massive income inequality.......rich have gotten much richer at the expense of the masses causing internal instability (reds vs yellows......soon more colors will follow)

5) Major tourists destinations like Pattaya-Jomtien engaged in terrible city planning........thinking, I suppose, that if they ran off the lower to middle income tourists Pattaya-Jomtien would morph into Monaco......that has caused serious problems in Pattaya-Jomtien (e.g., increase in crime, loss of income/jobs, etc).

6) Malaysia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Indonesia, and the Philippines have taken advantage of Thailand's never-ending mistakes (compare the visa process in Cambodia to Thailand and you will see what I mean, to take just one example).

[apetley]

No reason to lament the loss of a bunch of farang tourists. Let's just enjoy the relative peace and ease of living again here in the land of smiles.

You should tell that to all those in the Thai tourit industry who are being laid off even as you post this.

A good friend of my wife who worked as a hotel receptionist has just been told her services are no longer required.

She's very upset with little prospect of finding any work in the near future.

[robblok]

No reason to lament the loss of a bunch of farang tourists. Let's just enjoy the relative peace and ease of living again here in the land of smiles.

You should tell that to all those in the Thai tourit industry who are being laid off even as you post this.

A good friend of my wife who worked as a hotel receptionist has just been told her services are no longer required.

She's very upset with little prospect of finding any work in the near future.

My wife works in the tourist industry too, still i hope that the Thai's wake up and lower prices and increase the service. Ever since i been here i saw prices go up with more then 15% per year while things did not get much better. They should become less greedy (the ones at the top).

[bonobo]

Thailand has shot itself in the foot tourism-wise.  Couple a slew of poor decisions by the national and local governments and the bad press received over airport closure, rioting in the streets, unexplained deaths, arrests, etc, and you have people who rethink their vacation plans.

Thailand could recover, but the problem is that other nations are not sitting still.  I see professionally made ads for Malaysia everywhere in the world I go, and I am beginning to see some for the Philippines as well. I have even seen huge strides in Cambodia, making it a more family-oriented destination.  If Malaysia, the Philippines, Cambodia, and Bali can give the incoming tourists a good, enjoyable time, then these tourists will become semi-permanent, coming back time and time again.  So barring problems in these other SE Asian destinations, Thailand will never regain all it has lost.  I think it can only hope to regain part of it.

[jumnien]

No reason to lament the loss of a bunch of farang tourists. Let's just enjoy the relative peace and ease of living again here in the land of smiles.

You should tell that to all those in the Thai tourit industry who are being laid off even as you post this.

A good friend of my wife who worked as a hotel receptionist has just been told her services are no longer required.

She's very upset with little prospect of finding any work in the near future.

Exactly my point! Lamenting the loss of a bunch of farang tourists will not change the numbers of tourists. Resentment and anger and self pity and fear are not useful strategies. Indeed, the Thai wisdom teachings suggest that enjoying peace and ease of living is the Way! Happiness is not to be found in a positive GDP. People were just as dissatisfied when they were swamped with grubby tourists from the corners of the globe.

[robbiecia]

I for one am glad that the tourism numbers are in decline here.

For far too long, the TOT and the powers that be have taken the incoming masses of tourists for granted.

What they didn't realize was that the travelers and backpackers of yesteryear put this place on the tourist map.

Add to that all the totally daft rules and regulations here regarding foreigners and here we are.

Soon you will probably hear that the TOT are going to spend a few trillion baht to promote this place again

when all is needed is a good house cleaning at the top

[JR Texas]

No reason to lament the loss of a bunch of farang tourists. Let's just enjoy the relative peace and ease of living again here in the land of smiles.

You should tell that to all those in the Thai tourit industry who are being laid off even as you post this.

A good friend of my wife who worked as a hotel receptionist has just been told her services are no longer required.

She's very upset with little prospect of finding any work in the near future.

Exactly my point! Lamenting the loss of a bunch of farang tourists will not change the numbers of tourists. Resentment and anger and self pity and fear are not useful strategies. Indeed, the Thai wisdom teachings suggest that enjoying peace and ease of living is the Way! Happiness is not to be found in a positive GDP. People were just as dissatisfied when they were swamped with grubby tourists from the corners of the globe.

I think you are off base........"Thai wisdom" is a contradiction in terms....what is taught and what people believe and do are often not the same in Thailand (or in any other country).

The fact remains that Thais need jobs.......they need foreigners to come here and spend money. They had one of the best tourism systems in place prior to TOXIN and the invasion of the real estate hounds........that has changed dramatically.

I remember the past.........10-20 years ago (on average as their was still some internal instability) Thailand was different and people seemed far more content than they are today.

I might add that back then foreigners felt like they were appreciated.........certainly tolerated......I never detected outright xeonophobia.......now many of us feel like Thais want us to leave.

OK.........many of us are leaving along with our businesses and money.

Thailand's tourism industry is like a sinking boat......unfortunately those that make policy are putting holes in the boat instead of patching the holes.

One final thing: I forgot to add that one major reason tourists are not flocking to Thailand is that prices have skyrocketed over the past three years, and for no reason.

The hotel I used to stay at in Jomtien increased its price by a factor of 3.......with no major changes to services or the room (but the bathrooms were remodeled). Now they are losing money.......

I can go to Bali ow and stay at a decent place (not stellar of course) for less than US$20, with a swimming pool, breakfast, and room surrounded by a quiet and peaceful Balinese garden.

And, in Bali, I don't worry too much about violence (but the hawkers drive me nuts). No place is perfect.

[jumnien]

JR says it best. Times were happier 10-20 years ago when there were far less tourists. May we return to those numbers quickly! Even if we return to the numbers of tourists 7 years ago, that would be ok...

[meom]

The fact remains that Thais need jobs.......they need foreigners to come here and spend money.

How about local Thai tourists? Huge market and to a certain extend they could replace foreigners once the economy picks up.

[apetley]

No reason to lament the loss of a bunch of farang tourists. Let's just enjoy the relative peace and ease of living again here in the land of smiles.

You should tell that to all those in the Thai tourit industry who are being laid off even as you post this.

A good friend of my wife who worked as a hotel receptionist has just been told her services are no longer required.

She's very upset with little prospect of finding any work in the near future.

Exactly my point! Lamenting the loss of a bunch of farang tourists will not change the numbers of tourists. Resentment and anger and self pity and fear are not useful strategies. Indeed, the Thai wisdom teachings suggest that enjoying peace and ease of living is the Way! Happiness is not to be found in a positive GDP. People were just as dissatisfied when they were swamped with grubby tourists from the corners of the globe.

Pardon me for making any asumptions but you seem to be talking from the view point of someone who can afford an easy way of living.

In the instance of my wifes friend she is the major breadwinner in the family and now has the responsibility of a child and mother to support with no income at present.

Never mind, I will tell her that Thai wisdom is that she should take things easy to be happy. That will keep her fed and a roof over the families head.

Your correct in that lamenting the loss of a bunch of farang tourists will not change the numbers of tourists. A properly prepared and sponsored campaign to encourage tourists is the only answer. That way the huge number of Thais that rely on the income derived can earn a living again.

[Abrak]

JR says it best. Times were happier 10-20 years ago when there were far less tourists. May we return to those numbers quickly! Even if we return to the numbers of tourists 7 years ago, that would be ok...

Jumnien, if you think that returning to tourists numbers of 7 years ago is going to make this place 'happier' you are sadly mistaken. The fact is that vast amounts of capital has been sunk into the economy on the basis that tourist numbers would increase. If they dont, Thais, whether it is because they lose their job or lose money are not going to be happy and they are going to lay the blame on the farang for being 'khinniow'. The tuk tuk driver who 7 years ago was pleased to get Bt100 and now asks Bt200 is not going to be happy to only get Bt100 again and even if he still gets Bt200 it will be only once a day. After you have a 42" flat screen TV you certainly arent happy returning to a 29" CRT.

[beechguy]

I agree with JR on parts of his post. The same hotel here a few years ago charged 980 Bt per night, now 1480 Bt. Some bars had beer at 80 Bt, now 110 Bt or more. Throw the exchange rate in to it, 34 Bt to the $ versus 40, or 50 Bt to the GBP versus 70. It's just not the bargain it used to be, so why wouldn't I go somewhere else.

Not really buying into the immigration part of his comments though. It's easy for people from at least 36 countries to show up and stay for a month, and with very little effort a tourist visa or visas can be obtained for stays of upto 6-9 months. I would think that is adequate for the majority of tourists.

Edited June 1, 2009 by beechguy

[robblok]

The fact remains that Thais need jobs.......they need foreigners to come here and spend money.

How about local Thai tourists? Huge market and to a certain extend they could replace foreigners once the economy picks up.

What i see about that its mostly factories and goverments who send ppl on trips. But those trips are not as profitable as farangs, the reason beeing Thais dont like to overpay and know the prices better.

[jumnien]

JR says it best. Times were happier 10-20 years ago when there were far less tourists. May we return to those numbers quickly! Even if we return to the numbers of tourists 7 years ago, that would be ok...

Jumnien, if you think that returning to tourists numbers of 7 years ago is going to make this place 'happier' you are sadly mistaken. The fact is that vast amounts of capital has been sunk into the economy on the basis that tourist numbers would increase. If they dont, Thais, whether it is because they lose their job or lose money are not going to be happy and they are going to lay the blame on the farang for being 'khinniow'. The tuk tuk driver who 7 years ago was pleased to get Bt100 and now asks Bt200 is not going to be happy to only get Bt100 again and even if he still gets Bt200 it will be only once a day. After you have a 42" flat screen TV you certainly arent happy returning to a 29" CRT.

Folks will be as happy as they make up their minds to be! Obviously, they are making tons of cash nowadays compared with 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, but those attached to the squirrel cage, the rat race, and its ephemeral rewards will make themselves suffer. Alas, that is the nature of the spiritually naive individual. the good news is that spiritual growth comes more readily through dealing with difficulty wisely than with wallowing in the mud of successful times!

[robblok]

JR says it best. Times were happier 10-20 years ago when there were far less tourists. May we return to those numbers quickly! Even if we return to the numbers of tourists 7 years ago, that would be ok...

Jumnien, if you think that returning to tourists numbers of 7 years ago is going to make this place 'happier' you are sadly mistaken. The fact is that vast amounts of capital has been sunk into the economy on the basis that tourist numbers would increase. If they dont, Thais, whether it is because they lose their job or lose money are not going to be happy and they are going to lay the blame on the farang for being 'khinniow'. The tuk tuk driver who 7 years ago was pleased to get Bt100 and now asks Bt200 is not going to be happy to only get Bt100 again and even if he still gets Bt200 it will be only once a day. After you have a 42" flat screen TV you certainly arent happy returning to a 29" CRT.

Its better to get 10 x 100 bt then 2 x 200 bt

At least it should be but this logic never seems to enter their minds its rip the farang off as much as we can.

Im happy that in the non tourist area's i don't see this much.

[Jingthing]

Its better to get 10 x 100 bt then 2 x 200 bt

Yeah, but a LOT more work. Its hot here!

:D

[Abrak]

Folks will be as happy as they make up their minds to be! Obviously, they are making tons of cash nowadays compared with 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, but those attached to the squirrel cage, the rat race, and its ephemeral rewards will make themselves suffer. Alas, that is the nature of the spiritually naive individual. the good news is that spiritual growth comes more readily through dealing with difficulty wisely than with wallowing in the mud of successful times!

yup.... and try explaining that concept to the average Thai... especially one without a job...

[Maestro]

An off-topic and nonsensical post and replies to it have been deleted.

--

Maestro

[deprogrammed]

When I first started to visit Thailand 15 years ago it was a good place to shop for inexpensive clothes - and not just copies. Recently I have had visitors from the UK, Holland, Norway and Switzerland and they all say the same thing - clothes are cheaper and better quality back home. Everyyhing from luggage (shit quality) to sunglasses are more expensive than anywhere on the planet!

Taking into account the strong Baht, the Thais have lost the plot when it comes to pricing of - well everything. They have also become arrogant and greedy and their propensaty for increasing prices when buisiness is bad is plain nutts.

When tourism was booming they went all out to attack visa runners. backpackers (said to be carrying vermin on trains) and those having bought property through nmethods sanctioned by lawyers.

Attacks on foreigners has been seen as fair game and crime is booming.

Most people arriving at the aiport are greeted with a scoul and have their passports thrown back at them after a unnecessary proplonged examination - unique in Asia.

Karma - my Thai hosts - karma

[robblok]

Its better to get 10 x 100 bt then 2 x 200 bt

Yeah, but a LOT more work. Its hot here!

:D

Yes i think that is the problem, the attitude it wrong.. they want to get rich fast. Don't want to work for it.

[think_too_mut]

There are many reasons for the decline. Unless you are willing to think on multiple levels, you will not reach the answer. The downturn is not only due to the airport event. It goes much deeper:

1) Xenophobia has increased dramatically in the country (seemed to start with TOXIN)

2) The xenophobia was linked to anti-foreigner visa/business rules, making Thailand less than desirable as an expat retirement country and tourist destination

3) The Dept. of Tourism decided to do something incredibly stupid: tell the world they only want quality (high income) tourists....tourists that typically make up only a small fraction of any tourism industry. Countries with thriving tourism industries (e.g., Bali) want all tourists....low income, middle income, and high income.

4) The govt. has done nothing to address massive income inequality.......rich have gotten much richer at the expense of the masses causing internal instability (reds vs yellows......soon more colors will follow)

5) Major tourists destinations like Pattaya-Jomtien engaged in terrible city planning........thinking, I suppose, that if they ran off the lower to middle income tourists Pattaya-Jomtien would morph into Monaco......that has caused serious problems in Pattaya-Jomtien (e.g., increase in crime, loss of income/jobs, etc).

6) Malaysia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Indonesia, and the Philippines have taken advantage of Thailand's never-ending mistakes (compare the visa process in Cambodia to Thailand and you will see what I mean, to take just one example).

Not a single point makes sense.

Maldives, Bali, Carribean islands may have that too. Nothing matters to an ordinary tourist except general safety that is being ruined by airport ceizures. Nowhere else it could happen.

Edit: Bali bombing did not affect everyone directly. But airports closure did.

Edited June 1, 2009 by think_too_mut

[HandsomeBoris]

No reason to lament the loss of a bunch of farang tourists. Let's just enjoy the relative peace and ease of living again here in the land of smiles.

I could not agree with you more. Especially with less Box Heads about!

[Ulysses G.]

Bali is popular right now because of cheap air tickets and lower prices for hotels and etc. In reality, it is nothing compared to Phuket, but Phuket has become so overpriced that most expats and Thais avoid it like the Mexican flu.

[ivowatson]

When I first started to visit Thailand 15 years ago it was a good place to shop for inexpensive clothes - and not just copies. Recently I have had visitors from the UK, Holland, Norway and Switzerland and they all say the same thing - clothes are cheaper and better quality back home. Everyyhing from luggage (shit quality) to sunglasses are more expensive than anywhere on the planet!

Taking into account the strong Baht, the Thais have lost the plot when it comes to pricing of - well everything. They have also become arrogant and greedy and their propensaty for increasing prices when buisiness is bad is plain nutts.

When tourism was booming they went all out to attack visa runners. backpackers (said to be carrying vermin on trains) and those having bought property through nmethods sanctioned by lawyers.

Attacks on foreigners has been seen as fair game and crime is booming.

Most people arriving at the aiport are greeted with a scoul and have their passports thrown back at them after a unnecessary proplonged examination - unique in Asia.

Karma - my Thai hosts - karma

Where I shop, the good fake items are still the same price as 15 yrs ago (or maybe I paid too much then).

It's the hotels that have upped their prices 10 to 15% annualy without good reason except that they could because they were full anyway.

Take the rising oil prices on top of that and now Thailand isn't cheap anymore.

Tourists can now see through the smiles and notice the greed and arrogance so there's not much reason to come here.

karma indeed and I have no doubt they (the majority anyway) won't learn from it