Basis For Police Requesting Further 12 Days Detention

[Remix4]

Hi,

Does anyone know on what grounds police are able to request that the courts grant permission to hold someone for a further 12 days without bail?

[Soutpeel]

Hi,

Does anyone know on what grounds police are able to request that the courts grant permission to hold someone for a further 12 days without bail?

Gathering further evidence ?? new evidence has come to light ?? terror suspect ??

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Not adequate tea money to go around?

[Soutpeel]

Hi,

Does anyone know on what grounds police are able to request that the courts grant permission to hold someone for a further 12 days without bail?

Ok as you know most TV members are nosey bast*rds...so what has your "friend".... ... done ??...

We need specifics man, not just cryptic references..

[jackdanielsesq]

Yeah really - whats wrong with ya?! Give us some real good dirt.

Was it robbery, drugs, sex, and most importantly, did ya watch?

BR>Jack

[timinchina]

TiT?

[Remix4]

Ok as you know most TV members are nosey

bast*rds...so what has your "friend".... wink.gif

... done ??...

We need specifics man, not just cryptic

references..

Well I wasn't sure whether to post the "problem" since I am not necessarily looking for sympathy, (or negative comments) etc but maybe there is some useful advice or opinions out there ...

It is actually a problem I have been involved with as you probably gather.

In January myself and my partner moved out of a house we were renting - personal problems meant that we were unable to pay the rent. We had fallen one month behind on rent and were obviously concerned that the landlord would start creating problems. He had said several days earlier to my maid that if we couldnt pay we were to get out.

Prior to moving into the house, the property was not in a state that could be lived in and we spent over 500,000 Baht renovating. The landlord gave 2 months rent free initially in order to make the house habitable and said that we were allowed to do literally anything - his other option if we were not going to rent was to knock down and rebuild and showed us his plans. The house was completely unfurnished - a couple of items that were in there when first viewed were subsequently removed by him prior to the contractors starting work since we did not require them.

One week after moving out we received a rather nasty email threatening us with police action and reporting both of us to our respective embassies (neither of us are Thai) if we did not respond and meet up with him to discuss. I immediately replied to the email and after receiving no response faxed a letter to him one week later.

Since then he had managed to find our new landlord and called him to tell him we had done various things - to which our landlord replied he is not interested and that is exactly what the deposit is for.

Anyway ... nothing further happened until last week police started harrassing my maids friends, my maid and even went to her daughters school and asking kids there where she was and saying that the police were looking for her.

Upon hearing this I called the landlord. He arranged a meeting on Friday to discuss what the apparent problems were and resolve the issue. During the meeting the landlords son turned up half way through, was extremely obnoxious and demanded 480,000 Baht in damages and lost rent since they have renovated the house and therefore had no income (????).

Upon leaving the meeting police were waiting outside the coffee shop and we were subsequently arrested. The charges were theft of 5 pieces of furniture (which even the wife of the landlord said during our meeting were not there) plus some damages.

My parents who are here on holiday came to the police station and the obnoxious son (who we now discover is police) demanded 250,000 Baht and he could get us released - when asked if he was police he denied it.

Our lawyer advised us to refuse to deal with his bullying and go through the system - this seemed to infuriate the son to an alarming degree, becoming more "unstable" as the evening wore on - several times both him and the landlord called my father at the police station to make a deal and finally ending up with - "just give me whatever you have in your wallet then".

The next morning after staying in jail overnight we were waiting to be transported to the courts and were delayed 1 1/2 hours - reason for the delay was apparently that the police were now going to request from the court that we be detained for 12 days no bail whilst they continue the investigation.

The court refused the police request and we were released on 100,000 Baht bail.

The main reason for my initial enquiry was to just understand whether this 12 days thing was usual or whether it is only requested in the event of anything serious - i.e. was this a ploy by the landlord to keep us within a system that he could still "manipulate". I am not necessarily concerned about the trial or the charges since we know for a fact that we did not steal anything and are quite prepared to go through the court system.

Any advice, comments or opinions would be welcome. My own opinion is that the landlord is not very happy with our arrest (him and his son had an argument after he arrived, which was obviously when he found out we were about to be arrested) and since his statement lists items that even his wife said were not there then this could cause further problems for him. They attempted to use it to scare us into paying and never expected that we were quite prepared to spend the night in jail and let the courts handle it.

[scorecard]

Why would you:

- Spend 480,000Baht of your own money on a house you don't own?

- Then you say you can't pay the rent and rent becomes overdue?

?

[Remix4]

Why would you:

- Spend 480,000Baht of your own money on a house you don't own?

- Then you say you can't pay the rent and rent becomes overdue?

?

1. Because 2 years earlier I had the money to do that and was quite prepared to accept the renovations

2. Because 2 years later circumstances change ... it happens ...

[TheLaughingMan]

You are not worried about the court hearing? You should be. Assume that everyone, EVERYONE is out to get money from you and believe you will be punished regardless of your innocence unless you pay everyones extortion. Don't for one second think the police are not in on it. They are all going to screw you, I feel bad for you but I suggest you start taking this very seriously, they kill people over this kind of thing.

[TerryLH]

You didn't have rent money for the place you were in, but did have the money for rent and a deposit at a new place?

I hope you have proof when you go to court. Unless you have a lawyer that subpoenas the woman, I'd be real surprised if she shows up. Why should she?

If she does show up and testifies, don't be surprised at what she has to say.

The 12 day thing was probably an attempt to keep you in jail because you pissed someone off.

A lot of folks wouldn't be willing to spend time in jail and would try to come up with some money...

Good luck with this.

[slapout]

For the life of me, I do not see any help (financially coming from TV members) I realize you did not ask but this is great material for the Thai show 'hay ha' or the tabloids or the talk shows which seem to be popular. If these avenues fail contact the various missionaries, they are trained to listen and give advice.

[Remix4]

You are not worried about the court hearing? You should be. Assume that everyone, EVERYONE is out to get money from you and believe you will be punished regardless of your innocence unless you pay everyones extortion. Don't for one second think the police are not in on it. They are all going to screw you, I feel bad for you but I suggest you start taking this very seriously, they kill people over this kind of thing.

At this point I am (or at least was not) worried about the court hearing. The lawyer seems confident as have several other people. Maybe I am naive when it comes to the issue of the truth coming out in court?

[TheLaughingMan]

Yes naive, not saying justice isn't done right as well sometimes but if the cops are now involved they will want their piece and if that involves manufacturing evidence, threats and kidnapping then it will be done.

[Soutpeel]

Remix4,

You are being shookdown big time here, there are "forces" behind the scenes who certainly have it in for you...the son...you basically have the system against you, as someone else has stated, whether innocent or gulity, they are going to get their pound of flesh...Not trying to scare you but hope you have got a good lawyer...

There is a bit of hope is there anyway your lawyer can get to the father (landlord) and strike a deal, saving face for all parties... guess the primary charge is theft, as damages incurred would result in you losing your deposit.

This is a shakedown for cash only, nothing to do with your alleged charges of stealing anything, I guess the son will not even want this to go to court, as then they would need proof you actually stole something

Best of luck on this one...its messy

Not that they would do anything, I would be informing your embassy of this situation, just in case...

Edited June 28, 2009 by Soutpeel

[Remix4]

You didn't have rent money for the place you were in, but did have the money for rent and a deposit at a new place?

I hope you have proof when you go to court. Unless you have a lawyer that subpoenas the woman, I'd be real surprised if she shows up. Why should she?

If she does show up and testifies, don't be surprised at what she has to say.

The 12 day thing was probably an attempt to keep you in jail because you pissed someone off.

A lot of folks wouldn't be willing to spend time in jail and would try to come up with some money...

Good luck with this.

The rent for the old place was 50,000/month and the rent for the new one is 18,000.

I agree that it is unlikely that the woman would show up. The lawyer stated that my father can make a statement that she said this during our meeting.

To be honest I dont believe that they would have stopped the arrest going ahead even if we had have paid and the police in charge of the case have not once asked for money.

[Remix4]

Remix4,

You are being shookdown big time here, there are "forces" behind the scenes who certainly have it in for you...the son...you basically have the system against you, as someone else has stated, whether innocent or gulity, they are going to get their pound of flesh...Not trying to scare you but hope you have got a good lawyer...

There is a bit of hope is there anyway your lawyer can get to the father (landlord) and strike a deal, saving face for all parties... guess the primary charge is theft, as damages incurred would result in you losing your deposit.

This is a shakedown for cash only, nothing to do with your alleged charges of stealing anything, I guess the son will not even want this to go to court, as then they would need proof you actually stole something

Best of luck on this one...its messy

Not that they would do anything, I would be informing your embassy of this situation, just in case...

Thank you for your concern.

I think the point is that the family does not want it to go to court since they would have to produce evidence and we do have several witnesses who can say that the house was empty. One further note to add - the father is a retired (VERY) high ranking police officer ..... Ho Hum!

My family overseas are all police and they are already contacting my government regarding the issue so that any unusual problems can be handled if necessary.

I must add that the police/court officials handling my case were all extremely polite and courteous and never once attempted to intimidate or cause problems. The arresting officer actually asked my maids daughter for a date when he was leaving work and subsequently told her that if we are harassed she was to call him.

[TheLaughingMan]

You seem really overconfident and kind of like you live in a country where common sense prevails and justice is done regularly. Police back home don't actually mean anything here, and the officer wanting to date your maids daughter, well I wouldn't put too much stock in that helping you. But I really hope it all works out for you.

[Soutpeel]

The arresting officer actually asked my maids daughter for a date when he was leaving work and subsequently told her that if we are harassed she was to call him.

I know this is a serious matter, but cant help laughing at this one...only in Thailand..

So I guess you should be encouraging your maids daughter to go on a date with him, need to get as many allies on your side as possible..

Maybe the "casual" and polite approach by the officials is a good sign, maybe they know whats going on, and know the case is not going anywhere and once "face" is re-established, it will all go away..

Really hope it does...

[Remix4]

You seem really overconfident and kind of like you live in a country where common sense prevails and justice is done regularly. Police back home don't actually mean anything here, and the officer wanting to date your maids daughter, well I wouldn't put too much stock in that helping you. But I really hope it all works out for you.

I understand. I think my main point there was that the police involved (not meaning the son/father pressing charges) were not demanding any kind of money or being difficult.

[isanb]

I'm sorry what happens to you but I wonder how you can be so naive ?

Ur family overseas are all police, so what ? You are in thailand , what will count more here is that the son is a policeman and the fathert is a retired (VERY) high ranking police officer,don't you think ?

you do have several witnesses who can say that the house was empty, try to imagine how many witnesses this kind of people can produce if necessary

The police/court officials handling ur case are all extremely polite.

Do you expect them to be rude with you. The Thai are always polite but it means nothing about what they really think about you (you should know that as you live in thailand !!!).

As an OP sait, now, it's all about saving face for all parties (and saving your ass).

anyway, good luck

[Remix4]

The arresting officer actually asked my maids daughter for a date when he was leaving work and subsequently told her that if we are harassed she was to call him.

I know this is a serious matter, but cant help laughing at this one...only in Thailand..

So I guess you should be encouraging your maids daughter to go on a date with him, need to get as many allies on your side as possible..

Maybe the "casual" and polite approach by the officials is a good sign, maybe they know whats going on, and know the case is not going anywhere and once "face" is re-established, it will all go away..

Really hope it does...

Dont worry - we laughed also

In fact she went on a date last night with him - this was after initially refusing since she was busy looking after my parents since they were distraught

Both the arresting officer who took my father in the police car and several court officials the next day all told us that this case was "nothing". I guess we shall just have to wait and see.

[Remix4]

I'm sorry what happens to you but I wonder how you can be so naive ?

Ur family overseas are all police, so what ? You are in thailand , what will count more here is that the son is a policeman and the fathert is a retired (VERY) high ranking police officer,don't you think ?

you do have several witnesses who can say that the house was empty, try to imagine how many witnesses this kind of people can produce if necessary

The police/court officials handling ur case are all extremely polite.

Do you expect them to be rude with you. The Thai are always polite but it means nothing about what they really think about you (you should know that as you live in thailand !!!).

As an OP sait, now, it's all about saving face for all parties (and saving your ass).

anyway, good luck

All I meant regarding the comment about my family is that they have informed the embassy as suggested by Soutpeel. I understand that the fact that they are police has zero bearing on what happens here.

No I dont expect them to be rude to me but they also have not demanded anything as they sometimes appear to with other problems.

[Maizefarmer]

Ok as you know most TV members are nosey

bast*rds...so what has your "friend".... wink.gif

... done ??...

We need specifics man, not just cryptic

references..

Well I wasn't sure whether to post the "problem" since I am not necessarily looking for sympathy, (or negative comments) etc but maybe there is some useful advice or opinions out there ...

It is actually a problem I have been involved with as you probably gather.

In January myself and my partner moved out of a house we were renting - personal problems meant that we were unable to pay the rent. We had fallen one month behind on rent and were obviously concerned that the landlord would start creating problems. He had said several days earlier to my maid that if we couldnt pay we were to get out.

Prior to moving into the house, the property was not in a state that could be lived in and we spent over 500,000 Baht renovating. The landlord gave 2 months rent free initially in order to make the house habitable and said that we were allowed to do literally anything - his other option if we were not going to rent was to knock down and rebuild and showed us his plans. The house was completely unfurnished - a couple of items that were in there when first viewed were subsequently removed by him prior to the contractors starting work since we did not require them.

One week after moving out we received a rather nasty email threatening us with police action and reporting both of us to our respective embassies (neither of us are Thai) if we did not respond and meet up with him to discuss. I immediately replied to the email and after receiving no response faxed a letter to him one week later.

Since then he had managed to find our new landlord and called him to tell him we had done various things - to which our landlord replied he is not interested and that is exactly what the deposit is for.

Anyway ... nothing further happened until last week police started harrassing my maids friends, my maid and even went to her daughters school and asking kids there where she was and saying that the police were looking for her.

Upon hearing this I called the landlord. He arranged a meeting on Friday to discuss what the apparent problems were and resolve the issue. During the meeting the landlords son turned up half way through, was extremely obnoxious and demanded 480,000 Baht in damages and lost rent since they have renovated the house and therefore had no income (????).

Upon leaving the meeting police were waiting outside the coffee shop and we were subsequently arrested. The charges were theft of 5 pieces of furniture (which even the wife of the landlord said during our meeting were not there) plus some damages.

My parents who are here on holiday came to the police station and the obnoxious son (who we now discover is police) demanded 250,000 Baht and he could get us released - when asked if he was police he denied it.

Our lawyer advised us to refuse to deal with his bullying and go through the system - this seemed to infuriate the son to an alarming degree, becoming more "unstable" as the evening wore on - several times both him and the landlord called my father at the police station to make a deal and finally ending up with - "just give me whatever you have in your wallet then".

The next morning after staying in jail overnight we were waiting to be transported to the courts and were delayed 1 1/2 hours - reason for the delay was apparently that the police were now going to request from the court that we be detained for 12 days no bail whilst they continue the investigation.

The court refused the police request and we were released on 100,000 Baht bail.

The main reason for my initial enquiry was to just understand whether this 12 days thing was usual or whether it is only requested in the event of anything serious - i.e. was this a ploy by the landlord to keep us within a system that he could still "manipulate". I am not necessarily concerned about the trial or the charges since we know for a fact that we did not steal anything and are quite prepared to go through the court system.

Any advice, comments or opinions would be welcome. My own opinion is that the landlord is not very happy with our arrest (him and his son had an argument after he arrived, which was obviously when he found out we were about to be arrested) and since his statement lists items that even his wife said were not there then this could cause further problems for him. They attempted to use it to scare us into paying and never expected that we were quite prepared to spend the night in jail and let the courts handle it.

You said it - they attempted to scare you, and you didn't buy it - well done.

As for the extra 12 days in custody - well, the fact you are released answers that question for you, but all that aside - didn;t you guys have a lease contract with the owner of the house, and didn't that contract stae what furnsihings were/were not included in the lease?

If there is no lease, then quite frankly, I would think the landlord hasn't got a chance in hel_l of prosecuting you.

Rental disagreements are civil matters - not criminal and you shouldn;t be kept in jail for civil matters. The theft allegation changes things - now it becomes criminal, and for that the police do get involved, and you can be kept in jail.

As for informing the embassy - means nothing: whats the embassy going to do? - its got nothing to do with them, they couldn't give a dam_n.

Wheres this matter going ultimately? - no where - sit it out - nothing will come of it.

Anyway - just what are you now been charged with?

Have you had to submitt your passport?

One other question ... you say you guys spent Baht 500 000 doing renovation, and got 2 months rent free .....

?? - this doesn't add up - explain (or have I misread).

Wheres the rental agreement - what does it say - or do we add "no rental agreement" to the willingness to spend 500k of your own money on someone elses' house?

All very odd ......

[Remix4]

You said it - they attempted to scare you, and you didn't buy it - well done.

As for the extra 12 days in custody - well, the fact you are released answers that question for you, but all that aside - didn;t you guys have a lease contract with the owner of the house, and didn't that contract stae what furnsihings were/were not included in the lease?

If there is no lease, then quite frankly, I would think the landlord hasn't got a chance in hel_l of prosecuting you.

Rental disagreements are civil matters - not criminal and you shouldn;t be kept in jail for civil matters. The theft allegation changes things - now it becomes criminal, and for that the police do get involved, and you can be kept in jail.

As for informing the embassy - means nothing: whats the embassy going to do? - its got nothing to do with them, they couldn't give a dam_n.

Wheres this matter going ultimately? - no where - sit it out - nothing will come of it.

Anyway - just what are you now been charged with?

Have you had to submitt your passport?

One other question ... you say you guys spent Baht 500 000 doing renovation, and got 2 months rent free .....

?? - this doesn't add up - explain (or have I misread).

Wheres the rental agreement - what does it say - or do we add "no rental agreement" to the willingness to spend 500k of your own money on someone elses' house?

All very odd ......

Thank you for your positive note. This is exactly how we feel and were not prepared to give in to their increasingly frantic attempts to demand money.

Yes we had a contract with the landlord for 3 years but the contract states nothing regarding furniture. There was no inventory list of items in the house since we specifically wanted unfurnished.

We have been charged with theft of 5 items of furniture. Yes our passports were surrendered to the courts.

We spent the 500,000 BHT initially to handle some renovations of the house and the landlord did not charge rent for the initial 2 months to "help" with this cost. One of the reasons that we were prepared to spend this is that we got a property, which was relatively cheap considering its size and offered very good space for our business in an area which suited us.

[Lancashirelad]

I have read previous stories on TV where farangs have stuck to their guns instead of being intimidated & paying up, & gone ahead to court.

In the stories i've followed (& one was much more serious as it involved drugs) all have walked away.

The worst is they find you guilty of stealing the furnite (which i doubt very much) & make you pay for it. I wouldn't think its likely to cost anywhere near 480,000 bht!

There's already arguments going on within the landlords family. I just have a feeling they might suddenly find the missing furniture JUST before you get to court.

Best of luck, keep calm, stick to the truth. Should have had an inventory.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Lancashirelad

[Remix4]

I have read previous stories on TV where farangs have stuck to their guns instead of being intimidated & paying up, & gone ahead to court.

In the stories i've followed (& one was much more serious as it involved drugs) all have walked away.

The worst is they find you guilty of steeling the furnite (which i doubt very much) & make you pay for it. I wouldn't think its likely to cost anywhere near 250,000 bht!

There's already arguments going on within the landlords family. I just have a feeling they might suddenly find the missing furniture JUST before you get to court.

Best of luck, keep calm, stick to the truth. Should have had an inventory.

Thank you, appreciate it.

(btw Preston is my home town also!)

[MKAsok]

I am not necessarily concerned about the trial or the charges since we know for a fact that we did not steal anything and are quite prepared to go through the court system.

My own opinion is that the landlord is not very happy with our arrest (him and his son had an argument after he arrived, which was obviously when he found out we were about to be arrested) and since his statement lists items that even his wife said were not there then this could cause further problems for him. They attempted to use it to scare us into paying and never expected that we were quite prepared to spend the night in jail and let the courts handle it.

If this is the case (the bit in bold), I can't see how this is ever going to get to trial unless a bunch of evidence has been fabricated, which would seem somewhat ludicrous, even by Thai police standards, for a few bits of furniture. Sounds like exactly what you think it is: an attempted shakedown that failed and once it gets above local police levels (which it will now), it's going nowhere.

[Ijustwannateach]

In this case, if you played your cards right, I would think you could reasonably demand money for their harassment of you (or else be subject to defamation, false arrest and other charges). But you should certainly have a lawyer in on any further contact with this bizarrely dysfunctional family.

[isanb]

In this case, if you played your cards right, I would think you could reasonably demand money for their harassment of you (or else be subject to defamation, false arrest and other charges). But you should certainly have a lawyer in on any further contact with this bizarrely dysfunctional family.

Just what i was thinking : the best defense is to attack (but be sure )