The Expat Factor

[chiangmaibruce]

On the issue of how many foreigners are living in the country ... I have been unable to find current figures despite inquiries to relevant agencies, but here is some old data I found in the National Statistics office web site.

We know the total foreigners resident in thailand in 1999 (265,849) and that of these 24,728 had work permits.

We know that as at the end 2007 there were 69,974 work permits issued (meaning that about a 3x increase in numbers since '99).

What we don't know is the number of foreigners resident in thailand at end 2007 who did not have work permits. If this group had also increased threefold then you would be looking at a figure of just under 800,000 foreigners resident in thailand.

Realistic? Probably too high I would have thought.

To this figure you might want to also consider adding foreigners on tourist visas who are within the country at any point in time, a proportion of whom would be regular visitors - possibly even with holiday homes/condos here

[kurnell]

Are we talking about retired expats or working expats? Working expats bring expertise, which the Thais need, despite what they think.

I don't know the figures on the amount of Baht that expats actully inject into the Thai economy. But I suspect that as a pecentage of the real Thai economy it isn't as much as the average expat thinks. Even if there are 500,000 expats living in Thailand...in a population of over 6 million...I doubt that the number runs to 10% of the total population. Even though the amount a typical expat might spend 3 times what a Thai does, I don't think it adds up to 20% of the whole Thai economy.

As for the "expertise" factor...that is almost nothing. I know most expats feel otherwise, but that is mostly nonsense generated by the imagination of these expats. Since only a small percentage of expats actually work, and many of them that do are working for there own benefit, not for the Thai economy; their contribution of "expertise" into the Thai economy is minimal. Frankly, what they do "know" they tend to keep to themselves.

And for those whose main contribution to the Thai economy is made in bars and bordellos....I'd guess their contribution of "expertise" is almost nothing. Not what they think, I'm sure, but I think I'm right.

One thing I've found out in my wanderings in Thai businesses....the secretaries usually know more than their bosses do,but the bosses usually assume the opposite is true.

Don't get me wrong, I'm an "expat'...whatever that is. I support a total of 6 Thais in my family. But most of them, except for the 12 year old grand daughter, and the 60 year old mother, work for at least part of their expenses.

Anyhow, if anyone has actual figures for tthe amount in Baht that expats inject into the Thai economy...I'd like to see them. Until then, my (uneducated) opinion is that the percentage value is nowhere what most expats want to believe.

Complete nonsense. Case in point. A lot of my mates worked on the underground mass transit system. If the Thais had been left alone to handle the contruction of a project like this the result would have been chaos. Thais just do not have the capacity to produce quality work. Thais will agree with this. They cut corners, replace quality materials with locally made copies, water down paint etc., surveying is haphazard at best. I love Thai food, and eat it daily, but there is a significant difference between making the perfect Tom Yam Goong and building a network train tracks and stations dozens of metres under the ground.

[Maizefarmer]

I was just wondering with the fickle tourism sector and export sector suffering, how much of an effect do we expats have on the Thai economy??

How many expats living in country at least 6 months of the year??

What's our average contribution to the Thai economy?? [immigration requirements minimum 65K THB/mo Retirement. 800K THB in bank and we mostly go over that amount]

Not to mention the houses we finance for our own families [and extended families] and autos we buy and businesses we set up and how many 'sick buffalos' we help etc etc.

Just wondering if there are any official figures or educated estimates from TV members [who seem to know everything]

And what's the trend now.....more expats leaving or arriving??

And is the Thai govmt aware of the contributions we make??

Oh, its nothing ... if we all left tomorrow at 9am, the economy wouldn't even blink, believe me ex-pats living in Thailand add up to such a small percentage (sorry, fraction of a percentage.......) lets not attach any financial improtance to ourselves.

[Sakeopete]

All I know is that the money I bring in from working offshore supports my maid : 1 farang = 1 job. I pay her 30% more than the going rate in our area. Some of you will slag me for that but her family is poor and she has 2 kids plus I can afford it. She doesn't pay tax nor do the construction workers I hire, the vendors selling produce etc etc. Since many Thais are self employed getting figures would be impossible. My point, we can argue all day about statistics but to the people in direct contact with us we are important to their micro economy.

[Jingthing]

Y'all are missing a basic point of economics. New hard currency coming in CIRCULATES around the local economy and/or it is banked to lend out for loans and development. This is about much more than the baht you spend of your maid. The maid then spends, then the chicken vendor spends, etc., etc., etc. ....

Edited July 6, 2009 by Jingthing

[wefearourdespot]

The first cost is the cost in terms of infrastructure needed to service these new older expats, that will never be recovered via a decent history of cummulative tax payments (income, VAT etc etc).

The second cost is the forgone benefits of targeting expat retiree's at the expense of targeting more productive migrants (for instance) or fixing the economy so there are better jobs for locals to do.

What the fuc_k are you blabbing about ? What infrastucture is needed to service who ?

What infrastucture has ever been built here to service older expats ?

Expats are a totally cost free (and mostly undeserved I must say) source of revenue for the Kingdom.

Your "second costs" are even more delirious than the first: as nothing has been ever been spent for the expats, how could nothing be used to target something else ?

The truth is just the opposite: if Thai Immigration had not persecuted and chased away expats and tourist with its racist ,xenophobic and avaricious rules a lot more of free revenue had flown to Thai people, therefore actually contributing to their well being.

But the well being of Thai people seems to upset the few who are already being well , so the inflow had to be stopped.

Edited July 6, 2009 by wefearourdespot

[samran]

The first cost is the cost in terms of infrastructure needed to service these new older expats, that will never be recovered via a decent history of cummulative tax payments (income, VAT etc etc).

The second cost is the forgone benefits of targeting expat retiree's at the expense of targeting more productive migrants (for instance) or fixing the economy so there are better jobs for locals to do.

What the fuc_k are you blabbing about ? What infrastucture is needed to service who ?

What infrastucture has ever been built here to service older expats ?

Expats are a totally cost free (and mostly undeserved I must say) source of revenue for the Kingdom.

Your "second costs" are even more delirious than the first: as nothing has been ever been spent for the expats, how could nothing be used to target something else ?

The truth is just the opposite: if Thai Immigration had not persecuted and chased away expats and tourist with its racist ,xenophobic and avaricious rules a lot more of free revenue had flown to Thai people, therefore actually contributing to their well being.

But the well being of Thai people seems to upset the few who are already being well , so the inflow had to be stopped.

no such thing as a free lunch. Sorry. To say foreign expats incur no cost is delusional.

Look up the definition of 'opportunity cost'.

[Gerontion]

On the issue of how many foreigners are living in the country ... I have been unable to find current figures despite inquiries to relevant agencies, but here is some old data I found in the National Statistics office web site.

We know the total foreigners resident in thailand in 1999 (265,849) and that of these 24,728 had work permits.

We know that as at the end 2007 there were 69,974 work permits issued (meaning that about a 3x increase in numbers since '99).

What we don't know is the number of foreigners resident in thailand at end 2007 who did not have work permits. If this group had also increased threefold then you would be looking at a figure of just under 800,000 foreigners resident in thailand.

Realistic? Probably too high I would have thought.

To this figure you might want to also consider adding foreigners on tourist visas who are within the country at any point in time, a proportion of whom would be regular visitors - possibly even with holiday homes/condos here

Foreigners and whitey aren't synonymous terms; unless your data specify otherwise, the former include Burmese maids, Laotian construction workers, Indian tailors, etc. etc. And I'm not sure you can draw too many conclusions from the increase in work permits issued. It could just be that the authorities have tightened up on foreigners in the country and this has increased the proportion of foreigners here who work legally (certainly something that's happened with EFL teachers.)

[wefearourdespot]

The first cost is the cost in terms of infrastructure needed to service these new older expats, that will never be recovered via a decent history of cummulative tax payments (income, VAT etc etc).

The second cost is the forgone benefits of targeting expat retiree's at the expense of targeting more productive migrants (for instance) or fixing the economy so there are better jobs for locals to do.

What the fuc_k are you blabbing about ? What infrastucture is needed to service who ?

What infrastucture has ever been built here to service older expats ?

Expats are a totally cost free (and mostly undeserved I must say) source of revenue for the Kingdom.

Your "second costs" are even more delirious than the first: as nothing has been ever been spent for the expats, how could nothing be used to target something else ?

The truth is just the opposite: if Thai Immigration had not persecuted and chased away expats and tourist with its racist ,xenophobic and avaricious rules a lot more of free revenue had flown to Thai people, therefore actually contributing to their well being.

But the well being of Thai people seems to upset the few who are already being well , so the inflow had to be stopped.

no such thing as a free lunch. Sorry. To say foreign expats incur no cost is delusional.

Look up the definition of 'opportunity cost'.

To have an opportunity cost you must have had a cost at start.

Thai gov has never spent a satang for expats so what are you speaking about ?

I made a very neat question above, would you mind giving it an answer instead of pathetically climbing mirrors ?

[samran]

To have an opportunity cost you must have had a cost at start.

Thai gov has never spent a satang for expats so what are you speaking about ?

I made a very neat question above, would you mind giving it an answer instead of pathetically climbing mirrors ?

go on, do yourself a favour and look up the concept. You are just making yourself look silly now.

[wefearourdespot]

To have an opportunity cost you must have had a cost at start.

Thai gov has never spent a satang for expats so what are you speaking about ?

I made a very neat question above, would you mind giving it an answer instead of pathetically climbing mirrors ?

go on, do yourself a favour and look up the concept. You are just making yourself look silly now.

The one looking silly is you.

You stated expats were a cost for Thailand because of infrastucture spending.

I asked you what infrastucture has ever been built for expats by Thai gov.

I'm still waiting for an answer.

[samran]

To have an opportunity cost you must have had a cost at start.

Thai gov has never spent a satang for expats so what are you speaking about ?

I made a very neat question above, would you mind giving it an answer instead of pathetically climbing mirrors ?

go on, do yourself a favour and look up the concept. You are just making yourself look silly now.

The one looking silly is you.

You stated expats were a cost for Thailand because of infrastucture spending.

I asked you what infrastucture has ever been built for expats by Thai gov.

I'm still waiting for an answer.

infrastucture is built for everyone and no one in partiuclar. Here's another two economic terms for you to look up: "free riding" and "externalities"

As for infrastructure: The airport you landed in. The road that you drove away from that airport to your house/hotel. The power lines and water mains which connect to your house. The refineries which were built by the state which make the fuel that go into your car. The teachers who teach your kids. The free schooling and university education provided to those around you. I coluld go on.

[Birdman]

Oh, its nothing ... if we all left tomorrow at 9am, the economy wouldn't even blink, believe me ex-pats living in Thailand add up to such a small percentage (sorry, fraction of a percentage.......) lets not attach any financial improtance to ourselves.

right.

But our departure would take billions out of the country in the longer term. The tourism industry for instance depends totally on foreign expertise from the technicians of the airplanes, the management of hotels, tour operating, etc etc. Thais alone could not handle that by their own on an international level. And that would be the case with almost all the other industries.

Anyway the whole thread is very hypothetic. And so would be the question, if Thais need all this to be happy.

[wefearourdespot]

To have an opportunity cost you must have had a cost at start.

Thai gov has never spent a satang for expats so what are you speaking about ?

I made a very neat question above, would you mind giving it an answer instead of pathetically climbing mirrors ?

go on, do yourself a favour and look up the concept. You are just making yourself look silly now.

The one looking silly is you.

You stated expats were a cost for Thailand because of infrastucture spending.

I asked you what infrastucture has ever been built for expats by Thai gov.

I'm still waiting for an answer.

infrastucture is built for everyone and no one in partiuclar. Here's another two economic terms for you to look up: "free riding" and "externalities"

As for infrastructure: The airport you landed in. The road that you drove away from that airport to your house/hotel. The power lines and water mains which connect to your house. The refineries which were built by the state which make the fuel that go into your car. The teachers who teach your kids. The free schooling and university education provided to those around you. I coluld go on.

OMG you are unbelievable

Each time I use the airport I pay a tax included in the air ticket.

To use the road I have to pay a bus ticket or a taxi fare. If I drive I have to pay VAT and taxes on the vehicle I have purchased plus taxes on fuel.

Refineries get paid also.

Please don't call teachers the brain washers who take care to delete whatever sign of intelligence and free thought in Thai public school pupils (I don't have kids anyway).

Expats don't get any free schooling and university education.

Please feel free to go on, we all want to have one more laugh

[Detox]

I try and contribute as little as possible to the economy in any country I am in..I would reconsider if the country was run properly and my money would be utilized in the right way... I will not pay for any bail out or gifts to the boys.

Over the last few years, I contribute nil in the way of taxes or visa runs as I now have a Thai passport.

I also do not work and grow most of my own food and my farm produces what I live on financially.

Im pretty much self sufficient in many ways and I might be classed as a farang kee nok because fo it.

The only money I spend is when leaving to go somewhere else.

[ozzieovaseas]

Those of you who are sugggesting the thai economy wouldnt blink an eyelid if all farang (tourists/expats/retirees) were to leave here tomorrow are seriously deluded!!!

If farang $ is such a minor contribution,why then is the current government working on measures to stimulate tourism and get people to back to thailand? (albeit probably contibuting a pee in the wind effort)

Of course the figures might look a little insignificant if compared against the national economy but try telling this to tourism operators in Phukhet,Pattaya ect.

If there were no farang then most of suk,patpong,nana ect businesses would all be closed down.

What affect to Hua hin if no farang?

What of Condos,hotels,appartments, everywhere,..not to mention all the retirement style villages who cater for individual nationalities that are popping up everywhere.

Due to some countries very high proportion of population being aged, the future growth industry in countries such as Australia will be in aged care and it is reported that Australia is not prepared or capable of the care, social services and funds required.

Thailand would do well to capitalize and cater to this industry instead of producing a head in the sand mentality of denying that farangs contribute anything to Thailand.

If a retiree spends...say 60,000 baht on total monthly expenses keep in mind that ALL this money is coming from the farangs homeland...100% and costing thailand nothing..and dont make me laugh by quoting infrastructure costs as the infrastructure will still be in place,the only differance being the amount of services used by farang (hotels,condos,restaurants) that will be EMPTY..therefor generating NO income....Oh,mai pen rai...we charge double to make up for it

Lets also look at this small detail:

A fully self funded retired farang might spend say...60,000 baht per month in foriegn currency.

Income of typical thai worker..say 10,000 baht per month.

Already we can see that a retiree is spending SIX times the thai AND being money from a foriegn source which might not normally be injected into the thai economy...so how many retirees living in thailand???

[cpofc]

Comparing the PI to Thailand? Who are you kidding. The PI can't even feed itself! it's biggest source of foreign income is labour. Whilst the population of the PI has increased exponentially, the Thais, thanks to successful education and family planning strategies have kept their within sustainable limits.

No wonder Gloria is crying out for Expats, the same as that other mess of a country, Malaysia and their My Second Home Campaign,

Thailand is an export based economy, how many times do people need to be told. Tourism is extremely important to the Thai economy yes, but I doubt that at 6% of GDP it is what you would call vital to any future survival of the country.

As for Ex Pats? Of course we contribute to the economy. You would be a mug to say that we didn't. yes, I believe they are better off for having us here, for alot a reasons, and not just the cash alone. But don't expect the red Carpet, 5 Star service anytime soon. There are priorities in Thailand,

i think we tend to want to believe we are indispensable to the Thais, but those of us who have been around know, no-one is indispensable.

meanwhile the status quo remains the same, and the bar talk consisting of, 'When will the Thais kick us all out' will continue perhaps into the next millenium.

[Heng]

Funny how some folks like to translate 'foreign' to only mean 'farang.'

[Birdman]

Funny how some folks like to translate 'foreign' to only mean 'farang.'

exactly.

It could be that many poster don't interact seriously with others than farangs. Even in Thailand. Even on this forum.

[Heng]

Also important not to mix the good apples with the mushy apples. Just because you're spending the XXk you make from selling counterfeit clothing/bags on eBay or putting XXk into the economy by losing it in your gogo bar "business" doesn't mean you should be as appreciated as the Honeywell exec. with truly unique skills/value. No one's saying the latter should disappear at all.

[MrHammer]

X

Compare this to expats in Thailand, I'd dare say that most expats here don't work, so you are going to need alot more expats here to create just one job.

You are SO wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Each retired expat creates SEVERAL local economy jobs.

I don 't recall the exact estimate for the Philippines, but is it over five local jobs for EACH retired expat.

The hard currency comes in and CIRCULATES all around the economy several times.

Even in Thailand, do you really think we are tolerated because we SMELL good? Thailand is NOT Australia. It is a THIRD WORLD POOR COUNTRY.

The Philippines, economically quite similar to Thailand

Arroyo wants to turn Philippines into retirement haven

Posted: 8:24 PM | May 30, 2006

Lira Dalangin-Fernandez

INQ7.net

PRESIDENT Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo wants the Philippines to be a retirement haven for expatriate retirees, a billion-dollar industry.

At a Cabinet meeting Tuesday, she approved proposals to make the retirement industry one of her administration's flagship projects and appointed retired police chief Edgardo Aglipay as the "retirement czar."

She has also instructed the Department of Budget and Management to allot funds for the Philippine Retirement Authority to develop the industry.

In a presentation in Malacanang, David Paraiso of the Healthcare Coalition Institute said the country has the capacity to support between one million to three million expatriate retirees.

A retiree bringing in at least 1,500 dollars a month means 18 to 56 billion dollars in potential revenue per year.

The global population will see an increasing aging population mostly in developed countries, HCI said.

Aglipay said that currently, foreigners go to Malaysia and Thailand to retire.

He said the Philippines should create a world-class retirement industry with the support of the private sector and the government.

Thailand is not a third world country even if you would like it to be. Only parts of Thailand is. The Philipines is a third world country. Are you seriously comparing Manila and Bangkok? The elite in Thailand has no need for expats, they dont make their money off tourists or expats. They make their money off poor people from Isaan and other regions.

[henryalleman]

The first cost is the cost in terms of infrastructure needed to service these new older expats, that will never be recovered via a decent history of cummulative tax payments (income, VAT etc etc).

The second cost is the forgone benefits of targeting expat retiree's at the expense of targeting more productive migrants (for instance) or fixing the economy so there are better jobs for locals to do.

What the fuc_k are you blabbing about ? What infrastucture is needed to service who ?

What infrastucture has ever been built here to service older expats ?

Expats are a totally cost free (and mostly undeserved I must say) source of revenue for the Kingdom.

Your "second costs" are even more delirious than the first: as nothing has been ever been spent for the expats, how could nothing be used to target something else ?

The truth is just the opposite: if Thai Immigration had not persecuted and chased away expats and tourist with its racist ,xenophobic and avaricious rules a lot more of free revenue had flown to Thai people, therefore actually contributing to their well being.

But the well being of Thai people seems to upset the few who are already being well , so the inflow had to be stopped.

no such thing as a free lunch. Sorry. To say foreign expats incur no cost is delusional.

Look up the definition of 'opportunity cost'.

can you give us a few examples please

[MrHammer]

Also important not to mix the good apples with the mushy apples. Just because you're spending the XXk you make from selling counterfeit clothing/bags on eBay or putting XXk into the economy by losing it in your gogo bar "business" doesn't mean you should be as appreciated as the Honeywell exec. with truly unique skills/value. No one's saying the latter should disappear at all.

Don't you think the thousands of English teachers working to bring Thai English skills up to average standard contributes to the Thai society? These guys get ragged on, but come on, what would Thailand do without them?

Compared to the level of 'Immigrants' that western people suffer from I'd say Thailands got the better deal.

[henryalleman]

To have an opportunity cost you must have had a cost at start.

Thai gov has never spent a satang for expats so what are you speaking about ?

I made a very neat question above, would you mind giving it an answer instead of pathetically climbing mirrors ?

go on, do yourself a favour and look up the concept. You are just making yourself look silly now.

The one looking silly is you.

You stated expats were a cost for Thailand because of infrastucture spending.

I asked you what infrastucture has ever been built for expats by Thai gov.

I'm still waiting for an answer.

infrastucture is built for everyone and no one in partiuclar. Here's another two economic terms for you to look up: "free riding" and "externalities"

As for infrastructure: The airport you landed in. The road that you drove away from that airport to your house/hotel. The power lines and water mains which connect to your house. The refineries which were built by the state which make the fuel that go into your car. The teachers who teach your kids. The free schooling and university education provided to those around you. I coluld go on.

My dear Samram, every time some foreigner arrive in Swampy he do pay airport tax, every airline pay landing fees, which the air traveler is paying when he buy his ticket. the fuel in my car I pay for; and pay taxes on it also; The roads my dear Samram, I do pay road tax for it 8000 Baht yearly. I have no kids but since when can children of a foreigner can go to a Thai government school and pay nothing, some foreigners in your country are even prohibited to attend school. And you know very well that most of foreign children go to a private school( a very expensive matter).

and the electricity power lines and water pipes who are connected to my home, I pay for my dear Samrang. Or do you like we pay a kind of Dhimni Tax like its custom in some Muslim countries.

i would like to emphasize that I have a perfect happy life in Thailand and have no problems what so ever with anybody. We can disagree about the magnitude of this amount.But you seems to deny the light of the sun, I wait till the moment that you will write that retirees are a burden to the Thai taxpayer, and an disruption of the Thai society

[samran]

My dear Samram, every time some foreigner arrive in Swampy he do pay airport tax, every airline pay landing fees, which the air traveler is paying when he buy his ticket. the fuel in my car I pay for; and pay taxes on it also; The roads my dear Samram, I do pay road tax for it 8000 Baht yearly. I have no kids but since when can children of a foreigner can go to a Thai government school and pay nothing, some foreigners in your country are even prohibited to attend school. And you know very well that most of foreign children go to a private school( a very expensive matter).

and the electricity power lines and water pipes who are connected to my home, I pay for my dear Samrang. Or do you like we pay a kind of Dhimni Tax like its custom in some Muslim countries.

i would like to emphasize that I have a perfect happy life in Thailand and have no problems what so ever with anybody. We can disagree about the magnitude of this amount.But you seems to deny the light of the sun, I wait till the moment that you will write that retirees are a burden to the Thai taxpayer, and an disruption of the Thai society

My, my, we have some rather thin skinned retiree's here tonight don't we? I thought old and grumpy was a cliche.

In terms of all the costs you outlined above. One word: subsidy. Check out the State Enterprise Policy Office. All of these things you mentioned are subsidesed to death.

Good for you that you are having a prefectly happy life here. I am happy for you, i really am. And you said it, we can disagree about the magnitude. I never said that you are a burden, just that if you are going to figure these things out, you have to look at both sides of the coin, the benefits you bring, and the costs you incur? Not that hard to accept that there are costs and benefits to every action one takes in society?

[Birdman]

..................

Good for you that you are having a prefectly happy life here. I am happy for you, i really am. And you said it, we can disagree about the magnitude. I never said that you are a burden, just that if you are going to figure these things out, you have to look at both sides of the coin, the benefits you bring, and the costs you incur? Not that hard to accept that there are costs and benefits to every action one takes in society?

Edited July 6, 2009 by Birdman

[Jingthing]

Thailand is not a third world country even if you would like it to be. Only parts of Thailand is. The Philipines is a third world country. Are you seriously comparing Manila and Bangkok? The elite in Thailand has no need for expats, they dont make their money off tourists or expats. They make their money off poor people from Isaan and other regions.

I beg to differ.

The Asian tigers - South Korea, Malaysia, and Thailand, except for their big cities, their maquiladora-type production facilities, a small middle class and a much smaller ruling elite should probably be considered Third World countries as well, since their populations are overwhelmingly rural, agrarian and poor.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/General/...dWorld_def.html

BTW, Thailand isn't a tiger anymore. It is a SICK KITTY. It once WAS an Asian tiger. Thanks to the political situation here, but the locals will probably blame farangs.

Yes, Virginia, Thailand IS a POOR country. Deal with it.

Bottom line, Thailand could greatly benefit from a MILLION retired expats just the same as the Philippines, but Thailand is too XENOPHOBIC to either admit that or to make that happen.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Jingthing

[Birdman]

Singapore, Dubai and Argentinia are Third World countries?

The map is old and one has to distinguish between Thailand and POOR countries like the Least Developed Countries, as defined by the United Nations

[MiG16]

what truly surprises me is this

why are we all sitting here debating the merits of what has been proven to be beneficial to EVERY economy for as long as human beings can remember?

trade - be it foeign or domestic - is something that has developed from the traditional barter system.

of course we know its beneficial. hence every person/country that would like to prosper and/ or exercise choice and free will want to engage in it.

but here is the bottom line about trade:

it is MUTUALLY beneficial. else the parties wouldnt engage in trading.

so yes thai people/government/corporations are aware that trading with foreigners can be beneficial (but not any different to expanding your market base from say a region in one country to a region outside the country). similarly the foreigners (or domestic) trading partners enter into such transactions because they too have something to gain from these transactions.

so what are we debating? how grateful thai people should be that we enter into a trading with foreigners? then my suggestion is those same foreigners should be grateful for such business transactions they CHOOSE to engage in ..... and the same logic applies to any other transactions that take place between local partners

(when I use the term trade, transactions - i use it to also cover whatever other engagement - be it investment of whatever sort)

maybe I missed the point? hmmmmm

[PeaceBlondie]

samran has several valid points, and several irrelevant points. I have no points.