The Thai Constitution Leaves Expats Out In The Cold

[chiangmaibruce]

Like most of you, the Thai Constitution meant nothing to me other than another trivial side-issue for the Thais politicos to squabble about rather than address the real/hard issues. Recently though I searched it out to investigate one issue in particular ... I had previously read in another Thaivisa thread that double-pricing for farang was apparently not allowed because of anti-discrimination protections accorded by the Thai Constitution.

http://www.senate.go.th/pdf/constitution.htm

Scroll down to Chapter III (after section 25). This chapter has some important stuff in it, all about individual rights ... and yes also anti-discrimination (section 30) But go back and look at the title of Ch III "Rights and Liberties of the Thai people". Does that mean that all the other rights (that the Government is meant to consider when dealing with people) don't apply to non-Thai citizens living in Thailand? Reading this paper by a learned Thai constitutional lawyer would seem to confirm that this is the case:

http://www.thailawforum.com/articles/Thail...titution-3.html

"Conceptually, the current text, as with previous Constitutions, also limits the section on rights to the "rights of the Thai people", thus differing from human rights in international law which pertain to all persons irrespective of nationality and other origins."

So you can forget about protection from double-pricing folks ... and potentially a whole heap of other things ... if push comes to shove.

Now this is different for example to the American Constitution whereby (I understand-but I am not a lawyer) that most provisions (read=protections) apply to ALL persons within the country. There are some exceptions of course, like the right to a federal job, the right to vote, etc.

What I haven't been able to determine - and what I am hoping some Thaivisa member/s can help me with - is what is the situation with most other countries that have Constitutions. Do they mostly embrace everyone within their borders or just their own citizens?

Over to you

Edited July 6, 2009 by chiangmaibruce

[midas]

I think I would have been more surprised if they had considered us expats

They will NEVER change their attitude towards us outsiders and we can take it or leave it

[harrry]

What is so surprising about that. The US only gives rights to US citizens. FOr example The Americans with Disabilities ACT.

[Jingthing]

What is so surprising about that. The US only gives rights to US citizens. FOr example The Americans with Disabilities ACT.

No, you've got the basics wrong on this. The US CONSTITUTION does protect aliens and it wouldn't be unreasonable to think Thailand should do the same, but they of course won't:

DUE PROCESS OF LAW AND EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW

Our Constitution guarantees due process of law to all persons, including aliens in the U.S. The concept of due process of law requires that specified orderly procedures be followed in the enactment, administration, and enforcement of the laws. The Constitution also guarantees each person equal protection under the law. This concept means that the law applies to all equally, regardless of status, wealth, or position, and that the state may not discriminate between person for arbitrary and capricious reasons. There are, of course, special laws and regulations that establish the conditions under which international students and scholars may study, teach, or pursue research in the U.S., but within these general and reasonable limits, international students and scholars and other aliens in the U.S. are subject to the same laws and are guaranteed the same protection of the laws and the same civil rights as are American citizens.

http://www.lbl.gov/Workplace/HumanResource...lienRights.html

Edited July 6, 2009 by Jingthing

[harrry]

What is so surprising about that. The US only gives rights to US citizens. FOr example The Americans with Disabilities ACT.

No, you've got the basics wrong on this. The US CONSTITUTION does protect aliens and it wouldn't be unreasonably to think Thailand should do the same, but they of course won't:

DUE PROCESS OF LAW AND EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW

Our Constitution guarantees due process of law to all persons, including aliens in the U.S. The concept of due process of law requires that specified orderly procedures be followed in the enactment, administration, and enforcement of the laws. The Constitution also guarantees each person equal protection under the law. This concept means that the law applies to all equally, regardless of status, wealth, or position, and that the state may not discriminate between person for arbitrary and capricious reasons. There are, of course, special laws and regulations that establish the conditions under which international students and scholars may study, teach, or pursue research in the U.S., but within these general and reasonable limits, international students and scholars and other aliens in the U.S. are subject to the same laws and are guaranteed the same protection of the laws and the same civil rights as are American citizens.

http://www.lbl.gov/Workplace/HumanResource...lienRights.html

I hope this is right I had been informed by disability activists in the US that if a foreigner was discriminated against they could not use the Disabilities for Americans act to obtain a remedy.

[Naam]

No, you've got the basics wrong on this. The US CONSTITUTION does protect aliens

only in your wet dreams!

[garyh]

Don't think the Thai Constitution means a lot to Thais either, how many miltary coup's have there been here to overthrow a democratically elected government.

[geriatrickid]

Canadian Constitution gives same rights of due process and non discrimination to aliens. Although not a written constitution in the UK, aliens also have most of the same protections and rights as locals when it comes to discrimination and the due process of law.

I hope this is right I had been informed by disability activists in the US that if a foreigner was discriminated against they could not use the Disabilities for Americans act to obtain a remedy.

Nope. A legal alien resident has the same rights under the ADA as does a US citizen. Even if there is a technicality that might allow such discrimination, significant actions are usually brought with the support of a public interest group acting on behalf of people with the same disability.

One of the problems they have in the US right now is that the legal rights of various illegal gang members has often precluded their immediate deportation back to El Salvador or Guatamala etc.

As a legal alien resident of Thailand, one does not enjoy the same rights as a Thai. Simply put, the minute a Thai sets foot in Australia, the EU, Canada or the USA, that Thai has more legal rights and protection than does someone from those countries entering Thailand.

[khundon]

Like most of you, the Thai Constitution meant nothing to me other than another trivial side-issue for the Thais politicos to squabble about rather than address the real/hard issues. Recently though I searched it out to investigate one issue in particular ... I had previously read in another Thaivisa thread that double-pricing for farang was apparently not allowed because of anti-discrimination protections accorded by the Thai Constitution.

http://www.senate.go.th/pdf/constitution.htm

Scroll down to Chapter III (after section 25). This chapter has some important stuff in it, all about individual rights ... and yes also anti-discrimination (section 30) But go back and look at the title of Ch III "Rights and Liberties of the Thai people". Does that mean that all the other rights (that the Government is meant to consider when dealing with people) don't apply to non-Thai citizens living in Thailand? Reading this paper by a learned Thai constitutional lawyer would seem to confirm that this is the case:

http://www.thailawforum.com/articles/Thail...titution-3.html

"Conceptually, the current text, as with previous Constitutions, also limits the section on rights to the "rights of the Thai people", thus differing from human rights in international law which pertain to all persons irrespective of nationality and other origins."

So you can forget about protection from double-pricing folks ... and potentially a whole heap of other things ... if push comes to shove.

Now this is different for example to the American Constitution whereby (I understand-but I am not a lawyer) that most provisions (read=protections) apply to ALL persons within the country. There are some exceptions of course, like the right to a federal job, the right to vote, etc.

What I haven't been able to determine - and what I am hoping some Thaivisa member/s can help me with - is what is the situation with most other countries that have Constitutions. Do they mostly embrace everyone within their borders or just their own citizens?

Over to you

I think the clue is in the title.

[jesimps]

No, you've got the basics wrong on this. The US CONSTITUTION does protect aliens

only in your wet dreams!

As usual, Naam is probably talking out of his rear orifice. I'm sure the farang has the same right in the States as the Americans, same in the UK, where the farang probably has more rights than the Brits. Does Naam ever leave his computor? Shouldn't criticise the guy really, this site really does appear to be all he lives for. Go on mate, take the wife out for an evening and give us all a break. Double pricing is immoral, and may be illegal, I don't know. What I do know is, that in Pattaya, I will never again accompany any visitors inside venues like Nong Nooche, Crocodile Farm, Underwater World etc. If they want to be ripped off, that's up to them, and I'll drop them off and return later to collect them. It's a matter of principle.

Before the sunshine brigade get on my back (which they probably will anyway), might I just add that I'm a pensioner on a not too high a pension, supporting my Thai wife and her daughter. There are Thais paying a fraction of the charges that are levied on me who could buy and sell me ten times over. With exchange rates etc, and the living standards that people are used to, I'm probably not much better off than the average Thai anyway.

Between the British Army and the Foreign Office, I served in many places all over the world, but never before have I encountered double pricing. I love the Thais, but can't understand why they've never nipped this piece of criminality in the bud.

[Texpat]

Thai constitution?

That's a joke, right?

Changed more often than my underwear.

[Datsun240Z]

They will NEVER change their attitude towards us outsiders and we can take it or leave it

I hope not.

[ericthai]

No, you've got the basics wrong on this. The US CONSTITUTION does protect aliens

only in your wet dreams!

As usual, Naam is probably talking out of his rear orifice. I'm sure the farang has the same right in the States as the Americans, same in the UK, where the farang probably has more rights than the Brits. Does Naam ever leave his computor? Shouldn't criticise the guy really, this site really does appear to be all he lives for. Go on mate, take the wife out for an evening and give us all a break. Double pricing is immoral, and may be illegal, I don't know. What I do know is, that in Pattaya, I will never again accompany any visitors inside venues like Nong Nooche, Crocodile Farm, Underwater World etc. If they want to be ripped off, that's up to them, and I'll drop them off and return later to collect them. It's a matter of principle.

Before the sunshine brigade get on my back (which they probably will anyway), might I just add that I'm a pensioner on a not too high a pension, supporting my Thai wife and her daughter. There are Thais paying a fraction of the charges that are levied on me who could buy and sell me ten times over. With exchange rates etc, and the living standards that people are used to, I'm probably not much better off than the average Thai anyway.

Between the British Army and the Foreign Office, I served in many places all over the world, but never before have I encountered double pricing. I love the Thais, but can't understand why they've never nipped this piece of criminality in the bud.

Don't fool yourself there is double pricing other countries too. Example is Walt disney world in Florida, USA They offer lower pricing to Florida residents, ok not the 10 time more they charge here in Thailand, but still double pricing.

[Texpat]

That's a tax issue, not based on the color of your skin.

[moe666]

There is double pricing every were, I go to a movie in my home town and I get a discount as a senior not color related but age related and nothing to do with taxes.

Also you have to seperate the constitution of a country from the various laws and orders the congress ( parliment) and executive branch may enact for various reasons to promote social and political causes.

[RPETER65]

No, you've got the basics wrong on this. The US CONSTITUTION does protect aliens

only in your wet dreams!

As usual, Naam is probably talking out of his rear orifice. I'm sure the farang has the same right in the States as the Americans, same in the UK, where the farang probably has more rights than the Brits. Does Naam ever leave his computor? Shouldn't criticise the guy really, this site really does appear to be all he lives for. Go on mate, take the wife out for an evening and give us all a break. Double pricing is immoral, and may be illegal, I don't know. What I do know is, that in Pattaya, I will never again accompany any visitors inside venues like Nong Nooche, Crocodile Farm, Underwater World etc. If they want to be ripped off, that's up to them, and I'll drop them off and return later to collect them. It's a matter of principle.

Before the sunshine brigade get on my back (which they probably will anyway), might I just add that I'm a pensioner on a not too high a pension, supporting my Thai wife and her daughter. There are Thais paying a fraction of the charges that are levied on me who could buy and sell me ten times over. With exchange rates etc, and the living standards that people are used to, I'm probably not much better off than the average Thai anyway.

Between the British Army and the Foreign Office, I served in many places all over the world, but never before have I encountered double pricing. I love the Thais, but can't understand why they've never nipped this piece of criminality in the bud.

If you want to cut off you nose to spite your face, that's your buisiness

but don't use your income as an excuse, go home and see how much better your life style will be, not to many places you can live as well on a limited as you can in Thailand, even if you do pay more than Thai people.Rather than complain put on your thinking cap and figure out how to beat the double price thing, you are married to a Thai right.

[samran]

That's a tax issue, not based on the color of your skin.

tell that to my blond haired blue eyed daughters, who get the Thai price each time (cause they are thai).

[BigSnake]

As well it should, we are visitors/guests with a country and Constitution in our home Country.

[sibeymai]

The US Constitution does affod the same rights to aliens as it does to US citizens. Why else the need for Guantanamo Bay, a place deemed to be foreign by the GW Bush White House where they believed the US Constitution did not apply. However, court rulings have proved otherwise.

Similar is Australia's practice of diverting illegal boat refugees to offshore islands thereby allowing the government to claim these people have not landed on Australian soil and are therefore not accorded the rights of Australian law.

As for Thailand affording to basic human rights to aliens I think any person with a basic knowledge of human rights could find laws and examples, even recent ones, which violate Thailand's internationally agreed human rights obligations.

[chiangmaibruce]

This thread has got side-tracked a little into issues like whether double-pricing is justified ... so back to the original issue ... which countries are inclusive of non-citizens and which ones are not ...

The following countries have constitutional documents (http://www.servat.unibe.ch/law/icl/):

Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Angola, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Canada, Chechnya, China, Congo, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Europe, Fiji, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hawaii, Hong Kong, Hungary, India, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Kuwait, Latvia, Lebanon, Liberia, Libya, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Madagascar, Malta, Mauritania, Mongolia, Morocco, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Oman, Paraguay, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Romania, Russia, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Africa, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Taiwan, Thailand (N), Tibet, Tunisia, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States (Y), Vietnam, Yemen, Serbia and Montenegro, Zambia

Y = The consitution (predominantly) embraces all resident within the country

N = The constitution applies only to citizens of the country

Can you fill in the blanks?

Edited July 7, 2009 by chiangmaibruce

[samran]

The US Constitution does affod the same rights to aliens as it does to US citizens. Why else the need for Guantanamo Bay, a place deemed to be foreign by the GW Bush White House where they believed the US Constitution did not apply. However, court rulings have proved otherwise.

Similar is Australia's practice of diverting illegal boat refugees to offshore islands thereby allowing the government to claim these people have not landed on Australian soil and are therefore not accorded the rights of Australian law.

As for Thailand affording to basic human rights to aliens I think any person with a basic knowledge of human rights could find laws and examples, even recent ones, which violate Thailand's internationally agreed human rights obligations.

in the case of Australia, there are certain portions of Australian territory called the 'migration exclusion zone'. Basically, it is the space at the airport before you hit immigration, and quite a few islands up north. In this exclusion zone, you basically waive certain immigration and refugee related rights (not sure what they are) though I doubt you are excluded from other protections offered by the australian consitution or laws (nb. Australia does not have a written bill of rights per se, and the constuition is more a building block and set of rules which joined the former colonies together).

In the case of the US, when an non-citizen lands there, the immigration landing card you sign states you waive all rights to immigration appeal, which lets them put on the next plane out of town if they want. That much is clear. But as so far as it allows them to get you to waive rights constituiona rights, I doubt it very much.

Edited July 7, 2009 by samran

[alant]

i may have missed it but is there anything that states the rights of visitors and or non thai residents? what is the position of thailand with respect to international human rights practises? it there such a thing as an international agreement on human rights and if so is thalain a signatory?

dont reply with how crap my spelling is please

[jesimps]

If you want to cut off you nose to spite your face, that's your buisiness

but don't use your income as an excuse, go home and see how much better your life style will be, not to many places you can live as well on a limited as you can in Thailand, even if you do pay more than Thai people.Rather than complain put on your thinking cap and figure out how to beat the double price thing, you are married to a Thai right.

Read my post again please. I HAVE figured out a way to beat double pricing, I just refuse to visit these places anymore. Another thing, I don't even miss going to these attractions, therefore I'm not cutting off my nose to spite my face. There are plenty of interesting places for visitors to see without going to these tourist traps. You know what else pal? I resent the sunshine brigade who come on here and keep telling people who have legitimate gripes, to go home. This is my home.

[TongueThaied]

No, you've got the basics wrong on this. The US CONSTITUTION does protect aliens

only in your wet dreams!

As usual, Naam is probably talking out of his rear orifice. I'm sure the farang has the same right in the States as the Americans, same in the UK, where the farang probably has more rights than the Brits. Does Naam ever leave his computor? Shouldn't criticise the guy really, this site really does appear to be all he lives for. Go on mate, take the wife out for an evening and give us all a break. Double pricing is immoral, and may be illegal, I don't know. What I do know is, that in Pattaya, I will never again accompany any visitors inside venues like Nong Nooche, Crocodile Farm, Underwater World etc. If they want to be ripped off, that's up to them, and I'll drop them off and return later to collect them. It's a matter of principle.

Before the sunshine brigade get on my back (which they probably will anyway), might I just add that I'm a pensioner on a not too high a pension, supporting my Thai wife and her daughter. There are Thais paying a fraction of the charges that are levied on me who could buy and sell me ten times over. With exchange rates etc, and the living standards that people are used to, I'm probably not much better off than the average Thai anyway.

Between the British Army and the Foreign Office, I served in many places all over the world, but never before have I encountered double pricing. I love the Thais, but can't understand why they've never nipped this piece of criminality in the bud.

If you want to cut off you nose to spite your face, that's your buisiness

but don't use your income as an excuse, go home and see how much better your life style will be, not to many places you can live as well on a limited as you can in Thailand, even if you do pay more than Thai people.Rather than complain put on your thinking cap and figure out how to beat the double price thing, you are married to a Thai right.

When I want to enter one of these double priced venues, I walk up to the window, drop my Thai drivers license on the counter with a big grin and say, "Mai chai farang, phom bin khon Thai, krup." 90% of the time I get either a smile or a disgusted look AND the Thai rate.

[Naam]

No, you've got the basics wrong on this. The US CONSTITUTION does protect aliens

only in your wet dreams!

As usual, Naam is probably talking out of his rear orifice. I'm sure the farang has the same right in the States as the Americans, same in the UK, where the farang probably has more rights than the Brits. Does Naam ever leave his computor? Shouldn't criticise the guy really, this site really does appear to be all he lives for. Go on mate, take the wife out for an evening and give us all a break. Double pricing is immoral, and may be illegal, I don't know. What I do know is, that in Pattaya, I will never again accompany any visitors inside venues like Nong Nooche, Crocodile Farm, Underwater World etc. If they want to be ripped off, that's up to them, and I'll drop them off and return later to collect them. It's a matter of principle.

Before the sunshine brigade get on my back (which they probably will anyway), might I just add that I'm a pensioner on a not too high a pension, supporting my Thai wife and her daughter. There are Thais paying a fraction of the charges that are levied on me who could buy and sell me ten times over. With exchange rates etc, and the living standards that people are used to, I'm probably not much better off than the average Thai anyway.

Between the British Army and the Foreign Office, I served in many places all over the world, but never before have I encountered double pricing. I love the Thais, but can't understand why they've never nipped this piece of criminality in the bud.

that i'm talking out of my àss goes without saying as it's the Klingon way to deal with earthlings. that you have no fàcking idea how aliens are treated in the U.S. goes without saying too. the expression "i'm sure" proves that you know nothing but you assume. that i am sitting at my computers (plural and not computOrs) looking at four screens 10 to 12 hours a day and working hard is nobody else's but my own business. that i visit in between this forum to have a little fun is my business too. that you are a poor boy and most probably [quoting you:] "not much better off than the average Thai" is your business for which you can't blame anybody else.

next!

[xylophone]

No, you've got the basics wrong on this. The US CONSTITUTION does protect aliens

only in your wet dreams!

As usual, Naam is probably talking out of his rear orifice. I'm sure the farang has the same right in the States as the Americans, same in the UK, where the farang probably has more rights than the Brits. Does Naam ever leave his computor? Shouldn't criticise the guy really, this site really does appear to be all he lives for. Go on mate, take the wife out for an evening and give us all a break. Double pricing is immoral, and may be illegal, I don't know. What I do know is, that in Pattaya, I will never again accompany any visitors inside venues like Nong Nooche, Crocodile Farm, Underwater World etc. If they want to be ripped off, that's up to them, and I'll drop them off and return later to collect them. It's a matter of principle.

Before the sunshine brigade get on my back (which they probably will anyway), might I just add that I'm a pensioner on a not too high a pension, supporting my Thai wife and her daughter. There are Thais paying a fraction of the charges that are levied on me who could buy and sell me ten times over. With exchange rates etc, and the living standards that people are used to, I'm probably not much better off than the average Thai anyway.

Between the British Army and the Foreign Office, I served in many places all over the world, but never before have I encountered double pricing. I love the Thais, but can't understand why they've never nipped this piece of criminality in the bud.

that i'm talking out of my àss goes without saying as it's the Klingon way to deal with earthlings. that you have no fàcking idea how aliens are treated in the U.S. goes without saying too. the expression "i'm sure" proves that you know nothing but you assume. that i am sitting at my computers (plural and not computOrs) looking at four screens 10 to 12 hours a day and working hard is nobody else's but my own business. that i visit in between this forum to have a little fun is my business too. that you are a poor boy and most probably [quoting you:] "not much better off than the average Thai" is your business for which you can't blame anybody else.

next!

Are you SURE you'd want to listen to someone who thinks he's a "Klingon"??????

[Naam]

i.m not sure i'd want to listen to a sheep lover

[glegolo]

[As usual, Naam is probably talking out of his rear orifice. I'm sure the farang has the same right in the States as the Americans, same in the UK, where the farang probably has more rights than the Brits. Does Naam ever leave his computor? Shouldn't criticise the guy really,

Before the sunshine brigade get on my back (which they probably will anyway), might I just add that I'm a pensioner on a not too high a pension, supporting my Thai wife

Are you SURE you'd want to listen to someone who thinks he's a "Klingon"??????

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry to see that you guys cant keep it up. This thread was quite interesting from the beginning, but it has

gone from bad to worse. If you cant be nice to oneanother, so just dont post anything!!!!!

I guy can be klingon or what ever I dont care, I have coming here to Thailand from fuc_king cold Sweden and I

try to really fit in here. You can think about doublepricing or taking care of falangs within the Countries border,

But just to be able to get away is fantastic. I think all of us think the same.

SO BE NICE GUYS......

Glegolo

ps. I REALLY REALLY hate doublepricing too

++++++

[ScubaBuddha]

Thai constitution?

That's a joke, right?

Changed more often than my underwear.

Once every 3 years? Ewww.

[hansnl]

No, you've got the basics wrong on this. The US CONSTITUTION does protect aliens

only in your wet dreams!

As usual, Naam is probably talking out of his rear orifice. I'm sure the farang has the same right in the States as the Americans, same in the UK, where the farang probably has more rights than the Brits. Does Naam ever leave his computor? Shouldn't criticise the guy really, this site really does appear to be all he lives for. Go on mate, take the wife out for an evening and give us all a break. Double pricing is immoral, and may be illegal, I don't know. What I do know is, that in Pattaya, I will never again accompany any visitors inside venues like Nong Nooche, Crocodile Farm, Underwater World etc. If they want to be ripped off, that's up to them, and I'll drop them off and return later to collect them. It's a matter of principle.

Before the sunshine brigade get on my back (which they probably will anyway), might I just add that I'm a pensioner on a not too high a pension, supporting my Thai wife and her daughter. There are Thais paying a fraction of the charges that are levied on me who could buy and sell me ten times over. With exchange rates etc, and the living standards that people are used to, I'm probably not much better off than the average Thai anyway.

Between the British Army and the Foreign Office, I served in many places all over the world, but never before have I encountered double pricing. I love the Thais, but can't understand why they've never nipped this piece of criminality in the bud.

I am with you, all the way.

If I get quoted a ""farang price" anywhere, will never go there again.

And advise all other farangs.

We should all do that!