What's Bad In Thailand Is Bad Elsewhere: So It's Not Bad In Thailand. (!?)

[chrisartist]

Very often on Thai Visa we are told that there is some bad stuff goin' down in Thailand. Then some bright spark says "well, the same bad stuff is goin' down in other places as well, so stop gettin' down on Thailand".This is an example of the single most common fallacy in argument on Thai Visa.

In general form, the putative argument goes as follows:

Premiss 1: X (where X is a bad thing) is common in Thailand

Premiss 2: X is common somewhere else too.

Therefore:

Conclusion. ?????

I don't even know what one is supposed to conclude from these two premisses. Is it that it is not important that X is bad in Thailand? If so, the argument is surely unsound. The fact that X is bad in a country other than Thailand does nothing to undermine the fact that X is bad in Thailand, nor does it do anything to undermine whatever importance the fact that X is bad in Thailand has.

As far as I can see, the *only* thing that mentioning that X is bad somewhere else can do is influence people to stop thinking about the point at issue and start talking about the totally irrelevant issue of what is happening somewehre else.

Please, people, if the issue is something that is bad in Thailand, focus! It is totally irrelevant to whether or not something is bad in Thailand, and totally irrelevant to what ought to be done about it, to say "well, the same bad stuff happens somewhere else, too".

Examples:

Corruption in the Customs Department is bad inThailand. "Oh, but it's bad in other places as well". So what?

A very large proportion of small businesses started by Thai women using their boyfriends' funds fail. "Oh, but businesses fail everywhere." So what?

The murder rate is high in Thailand. "Oh, but it's high in other places as well." So what?

[Jingthing]

You bring up an interesting point.

If people say, Thailand is bad because there is death in Thailand. Well, there is death everywhere. Not a Thai issue.

However, if people say Thailand is bad because of so many motorcycle deaths because people fail to wear helmets and drive insanely with no regard for others. Yes, a Thai issue even if that occurs in other countries.

[cdnvic]

I think in many cases these arguments are made not just to dismiss the problem, but to put things in perspective. In Thailand you have police taking "incentives" to not ticket you, which sucks but not near as much as Cambodia not letting you drive at all.

[dttk0009]

Also known as a straw man argument. It's true you'll see lots of that here.

[babuhavas]

yes op you are right,whatever happens in thailand,also happens in other countries,but why we always talk bad about thailand in thai visa?

The answer is

THIS IS THAILAND FORUM,

you num nuts

Edited August 20, 2009 by babuhavas

[cdnvic]

yes op you are right,whatever happens in thailand,also happens in other countries,but why we always talk bad about thailand in thai visa?

The answer is

THIS IS THAILAND FORUM,

you num nuts

No need to get nasty now.

[oldsparrow]

It's the expat forum. The expats have already left their home countries for TL.

Some find bad thing in TL, they compare it to other countries and give practical consideration/reason for their stay here.

Some find bad thing in TL, they love to regard it as exclusively Thai and they have internet therapy.

[cdnvic]

Sometimes when you are surrounded by an alien culture and a language you don't speak you need to find others to vent to that understand you. That's why you sometimes see a disproportionate amount of griping here.

Digital therapy

[Lancelot]

Examples:

Corruption in the Customs Department is bad inThailand. "Oh, but it's bad in other places as well". So what?

A very large proportion of small businesses started by Thai women using their boyfriends' funds fail. "Oh, but businesses fail everywhere." So what?

The murder rate is high in Thailand. "Oh, but it's high in other places as well." So what?

Sure there are problems in every society but its deemed unacceptable by many to voice any comments ctitical of Thailand. I'm not sure how any society/nation improves if it is unable to rationaly discuss its short commings

[oldsparrow]

Sometimes when you are surrounded by an alien culture and a language you don't speak you need to find others to vent to that understand you. That's why you sometimes see a disproportionate amount of griping here. Digital therapy

Yeah it's advisable not to complain the country in public so this is the place.

[Lancelot]

Yeah it's advisable not to complain the country in public so this is the place.

I agree but its not always "safe" to complain here either

[oldsparrow]

Examples: Corruption in the Customs Department is bad inThailand. "Oh, but it's bad in other places as well". So what? A very large proportion of small businesses started by Thai women using their boyfriends' funds fail. "Oh, but businesses fail everywhere." So what? The murder rate is high in Thailand. "Oh, but it's high in other places as well." So what?

Sure there are problems in every society but its deemed unacceptable by many to voice any comments ctitical of Thailand. I'm not sure how any society/nation improves if it is unable to rationaly discuss its short commings

Expat forum is the least likely place to have your voice heard by the responsible people.

[Lancelot]

Expat forum is the least likely place to have your voice heard by the responsible people.

Sparrow, we certainly agree on this topic. First beer is on me

[OxfordWill]

Someone using propositional logic in a thaivisa thread! I think I just came. 10 out of 10 for effort although could use some formalising.

[oldsparrow]

Cheers !! Lancelot ไท

[chrisartist]

Also known as a straw man argument. It's true you'll see lots of that here.

No, a straw man argument is where you set up a ridiculously weak version of what your opponent is saying so that it is very easy to find objections to it. In the form of argument that I was describing, the opponent simply says something that is completely irrelevant.

[chrisartist]

Someone using propositional logic in a thaivisa thread! I think I just came. 10 out of 10 for effort although could use some formalising.

If you wish to formalise it, please feel free to do so. However, the point would seem to be clear as it stands.

CambridgeChris

[Gaccha]

It's known as the "what about" argument.

"There is one particular type of bad argument that has always existed, but it has now spread like tar over the world-wide web, and is seeping into the pubs, coffee shops and opinion columns everywhere. It is known as 'what-aboutery' - and there was a particularly ripe example of it in response to one of my articles last week.

As a rhetorical trick, it is simple. Anyone can do it, and we are all tempted sometimes. When you have lost an argument - when you can't justify your case, and it is crumbling in your hands - you snap back: "But what about x?"

You then raise a totally different subject, and try to get everybody to focus on it - hoping it will distract attention from your own deflated case....

...This argument is almost always disingenuous. How do I know? Because when you write back and explain that, why, I do actually criticize Islamists/Israel/the US/China/whoever-you-have-picked-out-randomly, and here are the articles where I do it, nobody ever writes back and says: fair enough; you consistently condemn human rights abuses, no matter who commits them. No. They scrape around for another "what about." What about Tibet? What about Sri Lanka? What about North Korea? This list never ends, as the other side tries to draw your attention further and further from what you were discussing. "

(see Hari, J. [11 April 2009], How to spot a lame, lame argument. The Independent.)

[WaiWai]

Good post, Gaccha.

Yes; the strategy is prevalent amongst expats generally, and certainly can be observed on this forum.

I am not sure if it's so much about attempting to "win" an argument as defending one's life decisions. We all do the latter ... what are some of the other ways?

[topben]

yes op you are right,whatever happens in thailand,also happens in other countries,but why we always talk bad about thailand in thai visa?

The answer is

THIS IS THAILAND FORUM,

you num nuts

No need to get nasty now.

imagine cambodia or laos or vietnam has a similar forum.

what will we be talking about these countries?

or will it be more of the same?

[quiksilva]

No. Simply stating that 'X is common in Thailand' is not an argument. Its a complaint.

The problem I have is how do you define 'common'? Without benchmarks it becomes very subjective.

In this instance P1 introduced the geographical aspect to the discussion by stating "X is common in Thailand", by doing so he/she made a value judgement. But what points of reference did they use to make that assessment? If not geographical, then why say 'in Thailand'?

So if P1 can use another country as a point of reference as they (albeit obliquely) did, why can't P2?

Saying "In comparison with the USA, corruption is widespread in Thailand, but it is not as bad as Nigeria", does not defend the problem, as other posters said, it puts it in perspective.

If the statement had been "X is common in the Navy", then surely a comparison to see whether X is common in other armed forces, would lend weight to the discussion at hand? (Oh and given that his is a Thai forum and no country is specifically referenced, it is implied that this would chiefly be about the Thai Navy and other Thai armed forces).

However, if the statement had said "X is common in the Army in 2009", then you could hope to be able to begin a discussion solely about how the prevalence of X had changed in the Royal Thai Army over time.

It could be argued that this would be a much better, more fruitful discussion because you used a more definitive frame of reference. But it would not mean that good comparisons would not add value to the discussion, quite the opposite they'd serve as good points of reference, keeping the topic in perspective.

Edited August 20, 2009 by quiksilva

[geriatrickid]

How about focusing the subject? Have you ever noticed that when relationship issues are raised, the influencing factors and key characteristics are always left out? For example, one of the most common threads involves the women of Issan and their husbands/partners/boyfriends. According to some on TV, these women are the harpes from Hades. Yet, there is no mention of how these women were encountered, the type of man involved or the man's behaviour throughout the course of the encounter.

From what I have seen, the guys that are married to Issan ladies and that live in the area, are doing ok and are relatively happy. When they have real problems (e.g. annoying inlaws or step children) they often offer logical workable solutions. If anything, these are the men with less vindictiveness, less anger in their posts and come off as decent people (at least from the impression one gets from their comments). I have met a few of these fellows and they are no different than normal suburban type folks back home. The ones that post their hateful angry tales of woe, are the type of person that were screw ups in their homelands and that couldn't find a healthy relationship in their homelands either. They are the guys that meet up with a woman in a venue where a rational stable male would not go to find a wife or girlfriend and that anywhere else would set off alarm bells. And yet, these guys will blame the women, make rude condescending comments about Issan and altogether blame Thailand for their predicaments, when the reality is that they would have had the same or worse results wherever they came from.

There are problems unique to Thailand and one of them is that it attracts some of the biggest losers from other countries. Therein lies the real issue. If you start with deficient products, the end result will usually be deficient as well. as such, it is not so much of it being "no worse" than elsewhere, but a result of a concentration of the people that are prone to have the negative events.

[jasreeve17]

There are problems unique to Thailand and one of them is that it attracts some of the biggest losers from other countries. Therein lies the real issue. If you start with deficient products, the end result will usually be deficient as well. as such, it is not so much of it being "no worse" than elsewhere, but a result of a concentration of the people that are prone to have the negative events.

That's a horrible statement to make, but I agree with it 100% none the less.

[mca]

They are the guys that meet up with a woman in a venue where a rational stable male would not go to find a wife or girlfriend and that anywhere else would set off alarm bells. And yet, these guys will blame the women, make rude condescending comments about Issan and altogether blame Thailand for their predicaments, when the reality is that they would have had the same or worse results wherever they came from.

This has always made me smile. My wife is a born and bred Khon Kaen woman of Burmese stock. Her family have a fairly successful business in town (No she's not Chinese/Thai and her dad isn't the local police general for Region 4 although she did study in Oz ) and are what I suppose you'd call "middle class" Thais. Dad's got a New Honda Accord bought and paid for, likes his round of golf on a Sunday, that sort of thing. Our marriage and the subsequent birth of our daughter has been nothing more than idyllic. We've never had a cross word between us in all the years we've been together. My folks back home idolize her and their granddaughter and she idolizes them in turn.

MY point is I wonder if there are forums in the UK or America full of pissed off Thai blokes who married a British girl who got pregnant at 16, is 35 now with 5 kids and hasn't done a days work in her life apart from as a government artist or some trailer trash blonde strung out on meth from Alabama who blame the entire population of the country they reside in for the hel_l that their life has become and the shitty choices they made.

[jasreeve17]

They are the guys that meet up with a woman in a venue where a rational stable male would not go to find a wife or girlfriend and that anywhere else would set off alarm bells. And yet, these guys will blame the women, make rude condescending comments about Issan and altogether blame Thailand for their predicaments, when the reality is that they would have had the same or worse results wherever they came from.

This has always made me smile. My wife is a born and bred Khon Kaen woman of Burmese stock. Her family have a fairly successful business in town (No she's not Chinese/Thai and her dad isn't the local police general for Region 4 although she did study in Oz ) and are what I suppose you'd call "middle class" Thais. Dad's got a New Honda Accord bought and paid for, likes his round of golf on a Sunday, that sort of thing. Our marriage and the subsequent birth of our daughter has been nothing more than idyllic. We've never had a cross word between us in all the years we've been together. My folks back home idolize her and their granddaughter and she idolizes them in turn.

MY point is I wonder if there are forums in the UK or America full of pissed off Thai blokes who married a British girl who got pregnant at 16, is 35 now with 5 kids and hasn't done a days work in her life apart from as a government artist or some trailer trash blonde strung out on meth from Alabama who blame the entire population of the country they reside in for the hel_l that their life has become and the shitty choices they made.

mca, I am very happy for you because you're a lucky man.

You are also in a tiny tiny minority, so you can laugh, and good luck to you, but you're an unusual case, a rare gem (there's not that many middle class Burmese families living in Thailand whose daughter married a Westerner; you may be suprised to learn)...

Funnily enough, well it's funny to me, you also back up the OP's case perfectly, so double well done Sir.

[mca]

I do have to point out you'd have to go back a couple of generations to dig out her Burmese roots before some "Captain Thailand" pops up and says "I've lived in Khon Kaen for 20 years and know everybody and everything and there are no Burmese businessmen in Khon Kaen blah blah blah ...snore"

[mahtin]

I do have to point out you'd have to go back a couple of generations to dig out her Burmese roots before some "Captain Thailand" pops up and says "I've lived in Khon Kaen for 20 years and know everybody and everything and there are no Burmese businessmen in Khon Kaen blah blah blah ...snore"

Yes, where is Neeranam?

[oldsparrow]

How about focusing the subject? Have you ever noticed that when relationship issues are raised, the influencing factors and key characteristics are always left out? For example, one of the most common threads involves the women of Issan and their husbands/partners/boyfriends. According to some on TV, these women are the harpes from Hades. Yet, there is no mention of how these women were encountered, the type of man involved or the man's behaviour throughout the course of the encounter. From what I have seen, the guys that are married to Issan ladies and that live in the area, are doing ok and are relatively happy. When they have real problems (e.g. annoying inlaws or step children) they often offer logical workable solutions. If anything, these are the men with less vindictiveness, less anger in their posts and come off as decent people (at least from the impression one gets from their comments). I have met a few of these fellows and they are no different than normal suburban type folks back home. The ones that post their hateful angry tales of woe, are the type of person that were screw ups in their homelands and that couldn't find a healthy relationship in their homelands either. They are the guys that meet up with a woman in a venue where a rational stable male would not go to find a wife or girlfriend and that anywhere else would set off alarm bells. And yet, these guys will blame the women, make rude condescending comments about Issan and altogether blame Thailand for their predicaments, when the reality is that they would have had the same or worse results wherever they came from. There are problems unique to Thailand and one of them is that it attracts some of the biggest losers from other countries. Therein lies the real issue. If you start with deficient products, the end result will usually be deficient as well. as such, it is not so much of it being "no worse" than elsewhere, but a result of a concentration of the people that are prone to have the negative events.

Yes, and when loser from the 1st world country came to the 3rd world country and found that they are stil a losers, they naturally blame the new place especially the locals who are in better shape.

[oldsparrow]

They are the guys that meet up with a woman in a venue where a rational stable male would not go to find a wife or girlfriend and that anywhere else would set off alarm bells. And yet, these guys will blame the women, make rude condescending comments about Issan and altogether blame Thailand for their predicaments, when the reality is that they would have had the same or worse results wherever they came from.

This has always made me smile. My wife is a born and bred Khon Kaen woman of Burmese stock. Her family have a fairly successful business in town (No she's not Chinese/Thai and her dad isn't the local police general for Region 4 although she did study in Oz ) and are what I suppose you'd call "middle class" Thais. Dad's got a New Honda Accord bought and paid for, likes his round of golf on a Sunday, that sort of thing. Our marriage and the subsequent birth of our daughter has been nothing more than idyllic. We've never had a cross word between us in all the years we've been together. My folks back home idolize her and their granddaughter and she idolizes them in turn. MY point is I wonder if there are forums in the UK or America full of pissed off Thai blokes who married a British girl who got pregnant at 16, is 35 now with 5 kids and hasn't done a days work in her life apart from as a government artist or some trailer trash blonde strung out on meth from Alabama who blame the entire population of the country they reside in for the hel_l that their life has become and the shitty choices they made.

Oversea troubled Thai is mostly the uneducated women who got married to farangs. They are not adaptable. They have bad employment or simply can't do any work. The worst cases are the bar girls who turned back to their profession.

Recently I found funny magazine named คนไทยต่างประเทศ (Oversea Thais) in book shop (at least at นายอินทร์ book shop at the Emporium). It's by Thais in the US. tip off, advise etc. Sample of losers, winners, Q&A, no sympathy/legitimisation for the losers as far as I saw.

[doggie888888]

Very often on Thai Visa we are told that there is some bad stuff goin' down in Thailand. Then some bright spark says "well, the same bad stuff is goin' down in other places as well, so stop gettin' down on Thailand".This is an example of the single most common fallacy in argument on Thai Visa.

In general form, the putative argument goes as follows:

Premiss 1: X (where X is a bad thing) is common in Thailand

Premiss 2: X is common somewhere else too.

Therefore:

Conclusion. ?????

I don't even know what one is supposed to conclude from these two premisses. Is it that it is not important that X is bad in Thailand? If so, the argument is surely unsound. The fact that X is bad in a country other than Thailand does nothing to undermine the fact that X is bad in Thailand, nor does it do anything to undermine whatever importance the fact that X is bad in Thailand has.

As far as I can see, the *only* thing that mentioning that X is bad somewhere else can do is influence people to stop thinking about the point at issue and start talking about the totally irrelevant issue of what is happening somewehre else.

Please, people, if the issue is something that is bad in Thailand, focus! It is totally irrelevant to whether or not something is bad in Thailand, and totally irrelevant to what ought to be done about it, to say "well, the same bad stuff happens somewhere else, too".

Examples:

Corruption in the Customs Department is bad inThailand. "Oh, but it's bad in other places as well". So what?

A very large proportion of small businesses started by Thai women using their boyfriends' funds fail. "Oh, but businesses fail everywhere." So what?

The murder rate is high in Thailand. "Oh, but it's high in other places as well." So what?

So what? So perhaps you ought to consider other opinions which may be more considered and perhaps more analytical? Perhaps you need a sense of perspective on the myriad of "bad" in Thailand, both real and perceived. Perhaps other people who point out similar problems elsewhere are merely reminding you that you ought not to lose your cool in this heat over something that obviously happens elsewhere and wanted to share their own coping mechanisms. Perhaps, and just perhaps, there are other people who simply do not share your opinion and "logic", who are in fact rather happy and satisfied with life here.

So please don't for one moment feel offended that many of us do not feel like jumping on the "another-nail-in-the-coffin-thailand-is-bad" bandwagon...maybe because we manage to keep our sense of perspective in recognising, understanding and coping with the many real issues that exists in Thailand.

And lastly, please don't interpret this as a diversion from your point; becasue I am not trying to "influence people to stop thinking about the point at issue and start talking about the totally irrelevant issue". To be honest this is not a debate, merely an alternate view which you are free to reject: up to you