West Ham United V. Millwall Violence

[MSingh]

good post that m. this whole thing smacked of met incompetence. perhaps they've had their budgets or overtime cut recently so they needed something to take to boris johnson.

Stevie, with the decisions they made last night with regards to planning the whole Police Operation, you really have to question that something along the lines as what you wrote isn't a million miles off...

[MSingh]

I agree Msingh, with everything you say. I think ticket allocation caused resentment which led to the number of Millwall fans outside the ground. Also it was under policed and under managed by the ground and of course the met.

Have you seen the sky footage of the constant attempts by the police to keep the home fans in the stands? It was like a battlefield. A large number of home supporters broke onto the pitch three times. Not a single Millwall fan left their stand (thank the lord for that). The players on both sides (and most of the real supporters) must have been glad for that final whistle.

The behaviour of a small minority of West Ham fans within the ground was not passionate - it was violent (for some there is a thin line between the two). The majority of the West Ham fans were booing whilst the thugs ran on the pitch - THREE TIMES. I can't beleive the game was allowed to go on. But had it been stopped the violence, I guess, would have been worse. Sad, sad day for English football. I'm just glad I wasn't in London at the time and decided to take my five year old son to the game.

Yeah i've seen them Mate, no good at all..

But as i said & i'm not condoning the running onto the Pitch, but there was a lot more problems last nigth that should be highlighted than probably under 1% of the attendance running on to a Pitch, 3 times admittedly, to celebrate Goals against their fiercest Rivals..

Of course it's wrong & of course it should never happened, but that was nothing compared to what was going on outside for 5 hours..

That aside, you've got a very decent little Side there at the moment Greeko, so it seems & one i think is gonna go one step further than last Year...

[imola]

yep, that, and media sensationalism, crowd control on the streets is the mets job,

pitch invasion, yeh right, , not like they were goin at it toe to toe , no won was hurt on the pitch

and 50 or so excited kids let their passion boil over at a cup tie derby against fierce rivals, hardly a riot, it happens at a helluva lot of games , , ie minnows in fa cup ties, or last game of season a team narrowly avoids relegation there could be up to 20000 on the pitch celebrating, but the tabloids dont sensationalise that, propaganda sells crap newspapers and gets people watching news, its the headline and the

shocking opinions that are first impressions, and rememberd, despite that the facts are always twisted

no doubt west ham will be punished, somebody has to take the blame ,and blaming west ham will be the easy option.

[StevieH]

i expect the met to come out and blame west ham. they'll probably blame west ham's financial predicament for not being able to have enough police presence there or some shit, when it wasn't a football matter, it was a public order matter.

[EastSaxCol]

I haven't time to read back through this thread at present. But I did notice a reference to "young men" involved last night. However, looking at some of the pictures here and listening to reports there was in fact a fair amount of failed hoolies in their 40's who predominated.

[redrus]

i expect the met to come out and blame west ham. they'll probably blame west ham's financial predicament for not being able to have enough police presence there or some shit, when it wasn't a football matter, it was a public order matter.

Spot on.

I haven't time to read back through this thread at present. But I did notice a reference to "young men" involved last night. However, looking at some of the pictures here and listening to reports there was in fact a fair amount of failed hoolies in their 40's who predominated.

Definately spot on.

All in all, a disgrace to all.

redrus

[imola]

steve wouldnt doubt that for a second, and no doubt

that platini will have somthin to say bout it all,

[EastSaxCol]

[EastSaxCol]

n/a

Edited August 26, 2009 by Happy Hammer

[metisdead]

Just curious here, how is this related to Thailand?

[EastSaxCol]

Just curious here, how is this related to Thailand?

Do you think that you're posting on another thread other than the football one ?

[beano2274]

As soon as the draw was made plans should have been put into place. We all know that a London derby in the cup is gonna be troublesome, so why the heck did the Police do nothing.

The fans ran onto the Pitch wow so what, we see it often enough when passions are running high, and in this kind of game they are often running high.

The players tried to get the fans back into the stands, the real hammer supporters did not like the pitch invasions and were booing the people who were on the pitch.

West Ham will get a fine for it, so should the Police, but banning or removing West Ham out of the competition is not the best way forward as the true fans will lose.

[EastSaxCol]

The fans ran onto the Pitch wow so what, we see it often enough when passions are running high, and in this kind of game they are often running high.

Perhaps then you'd prefer to be caged in to curb animal passions ?

[Geekfreaklover]

Just to calrify - it wasn't the running onto the pitch that bothered me - it was the scenes of police battering the home fans trying to get onto the pitch that I didn't like to see. Perhaps better for the police and stewards to block the away section and let the fans have their moment on the pitch.

During and after the game the Millwall boards on BBC were flooded with insults from supposed fans from other clubs 'Millwall scum', 'Ban Millwall from the league' etc etc etc.

Todays media has painted a different picture. Even the Sun has landed the blame on West Ham for the trouble. The back page headline - 'A bloody disgrace.'

Millwall has a negative history and we have made great efforts to try and improve things. Last night has put things back a long stretch.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Geekfreaklover

[Geekfreaklover]

The fans ran onto the Pitch wow so what, we see it often enough when passions are running high, and in this kind of game they are often running high.

Perhaps then you'd prefer to be caged in to curb animal passions ?

We all know too well from history what happens when fans are caged in and surge forward

[MSingh]

Just to calrify - it wasn't the running onto the pitch that bothered me - it was the scenes of police battering the home fans trying to get onto the pitch that I didn't like to see. Perhaps better for the police and stewards to block the away section and let the fans have their moment on the pitch.

During and after the game the Millwall boards on BBC were flooded with insults from supposed fans from other clubs 'Millwall scum', 'Ban Millwall from the league' etc etc etc.

Todays media has painted a different picture. Even the Sun has landed the blame on West Ham for the trouble. The back page headline - 'A bloody disgrace.'

Millwall has a negative history and we have made great efforts to try and improve things. Last night has put things back a long stretch.

Of course, to blame only Millwall would be completely unfair & to be honest, i never saw what was being wrote on the Millwall Boards but i would have thought it'd be Water off a Ducks back & again, anyone with half a brain wouldn't only blame Millwall...

Just got off the Phone to a Pal if mine who went last night & he told me he was talking to a Policeman at liverpool Street at about 16:00 & the Policeman told him that they only had 350 Riot Police deployed for the evening & that they were " going to have a nightmare night because of it "

That's a Metropolitan Police Officer & to put it into perspective, the last West Ham V Millwall Game at UP was on a Sunday Morning, at Midday, with 1,250 Riot Police deployed & i can remember as clear as day, there wasn't even a fraction of the problems that day as there seems to have been last night...

I obviously wasn't there last night but i was for that previous Game i mentioned & the OB had it well & truly wrapped up that day.

Last night however was a very, very different story, for some absolutely unknown reason..

[EastSaxCol]

The fans ran onto the Pitch wow so what, we see it often enough when passions are running high, and in this kind of game they are often running high.

Perhaps then you'd prefer to be caged in to curb animal passions ?

We all know too well from history what happens when fans are caged in and surge forward

Tragically so.

[StevieH]

steve wouldnt doubt that for a second, and no doubt

that platini will have somthin to say bout it all,

well given that he's had it in for english football fans in general since heysel, it wouldn't surprise me to hear him drop that line about the 'english disease' again. when there's far, far worse happens in italy, russia, holland and other countries every season.

incidentally, thought the millwall fans' abuse of jack collison was pretty fuc_king tasteless.

[Geekfreaklover]

steve wouldnt doubt that for a second, and no doubt

that platini will have somthin to say bout it all,

well given that he's had it in for english football fans in general since heysel, it wouldn't surprise me to hear him drop that line about the 'english disease' again. when there's far, far worse happens in italy, russia, holland and other countries every season.

incidentally, thought the millwall fans' abuse of jack collison was pretty fuc_king tasteless.

Did you hear the abuse? - I read that Collison walked off crying in disgust of his fans. Then again I also read that the away fans were making monkey sounds at Cole. I can't see it. I watched Millwall throughout the 90s - home and away. No racist chanting. We have black players. Why would do such a thing? - sounds like West Ham are clutching at sraws to try and spread some of the blame. Then again there is a lot of heresay.

And we still don't know which side the stabbed fan supported. I have heard on the grape it's a Millwall fan. Any ideas?

[EastSaxCol]

I read that Collison walked off crying in disgust of his fans.

He must have has a load of bottled-up emotion. Wonderful sensitivity towards the lad I must say.

I also read that the away fans were making monkey sounds at Cole. I can't see it. I watched Millwall throughout the 90s - home and away. No racist chanting. We have black players. Why would do such a thing? - sounds like West Ham are clutching at sraws to try and spread some of the blame. Then again there is a lot of heresay.

I also got the impression that it was some West Ham, but not sure if it was directed towards Cole. ? Which after the tearing down of Millwall's anti-racist banner would make sense.

And we still don't know which side the stabbed fan supported. I have heard on the grape it's a Millwall fan. Any ideas?

Again, I get the impression that he was Millwall.

[MSingh]

Did you hear the abuse? - I read that Collison walked off crying in disgust of his fans. Then again I also read that the away fans were making monkey sounds at Cole. I can't see it. I watched Millwall throughout the 90s - home and away. No racist chanting. We have black players. Why would do such a thing? - sounds like West Ham are clutching at sraws to try and spread some of the blame. Then again there is a lot of heresay.

And we still don't know which side the stabbed fan supported. I have heard on the grape it's a Millwall fan. Any ideas?

My Millwall Pals here told me that on MISA yesterday they were posting for the best Song to sing for Collison ( they'd already got the Davenport one done ) & it had soemthing to do with Collison being turned into Collision..

The FA are looking into the Rcaist chanting towards Cole as per the Guardian & Greeko, i've been to many a Millwall Game & to say you went in the 90's & NEVER heard racist chanting i honestly find hard to believe if i'm honest..

I remember the 2-2 ( or did City win 3-2 ?? ) with City at the New Den when Shaun Goater received some of the most dreadful abuse i have ever heard in my life, that's just one off the top of my head & i'm SURE you've been to more Games at the new Den than i have..

I've also heard racist abuse at West Hma on more than one occassion, i'm not going to say i haven't but to say we're clutching at straws & trying to spread some blame is a little unfair i think Mate..

It wasn't 600 of our Fans who didn't have Tickets at the end of the day & still travelled so i don't feel if we really need to " spread the blame ".

& if you really want to believe that Collison walked off crying in disgust of his Fans who ran on to the Pitch to celebrate a couple of Goals, when his Dad died 48 hours earlier, then you crack on...

As far as the stabbing goes, i have heard lost of different stuff but heard a Guy ( Millwall ) call in on tha Radio last nigth & he was sure it was a Millwall Fan stabbed as West Ham chased a group down Priory Road..

With ZERO OB in sight he added.

Let's not be blinkered by all this aye ??

[Geekfreaklover]

Did you hear the abuse? - I read that Collison walked off crying in disgust of his fans. Then again I also read that the away fans were making monkey sounds at Cole. I can't see it. I watched Millwall throughout the 90s - home and away. No racist chanting. We have black players. Why would do such a thing? - sounds like West Ham are clutching at sraws to try and spread some of the blame. Then again there is a lot of heresay.

And we still don't know which side the stabbed fan supported. I have heard on the grape it's a Millwall fan. Any ideas?

My Millwall Pals here told me that on MISA yesterday they were posting for the best Song to sing for Collison ( they'd already got the Davenport one done ) & it had soemthing to do with Collison being turned into Collision..

The FA are looking into the Rcaist chanting towards Cole as per the Guardian & Greeko, i've been to many a Millwall Game & to say you went in the 90's & NEVER heard racist chanting i honestly find hard to believe if i'm honest..

I remember the 2-2 ( or did City win 3-2 ?? ) with City at the New Den when Shaun Goater received some of the most dreadful abuse i have ever heard in my life, that's just one off the top of my head & i'm SURE you've been to more Games at the new Den than i have..

I've also heard racist abuse at West Hma on more than one occassion, i'm not going to say i haven't but to say we're clutching at straws & trying to spread some blame is a little unfair i think Mate..

It wasn't 600 of our Fans who didn't have Tickets at the end of the day & still travelled so i don't feel if we really need to " spread the blame ".

& if you really want to believe that Collison walked off crying in disgust of his Fans who ran on to the Pitch to celebrate a couple of Goals, when his Dad died 48 hours earlier, then you crack on...

As far as the stabbing goes, i have heard lost of different stuff but heard a Guy ( Millwall ) call in on tha Radio last nigth & he was sure it was a Millwall Fan stabbed as West Ham chased a group down Priory Road..

With ZERO OB in sight he added.

Let's not be blinkered by all this aye ??

No. Fair play, I'm only going on what I've read today - Telegraph, Times, Mirror, Guardian, Sun. To be honest I was surprised that the finger wasn't pointed more in Millwalls direction, going on our clubs history with the media.

As for racist chanting at the old den, yes. Early nineties. But in the last 15 years it has been pretty much stamped out, as should be.

As for Collison. Sounds like you are right if the song was worked out beforehand. It should be investigated from the footage, along with the racist shit and the clubs be fined.

What a week for Zola? Davenport, collison and now this...

[EastSaxCol]

My Millwall Pals here told me that on MISA yesterday they were posting for the best Song to sing for Collison ( they'd already got the Davenport one done ) & it had soemthing to do with Collison being turned into Collision..

That site is pretty dreadful. There is a more moderate one. But I can't remember the name.

I've also heard racist abuse at West Hma on more than one occassion, i'm not going to say i haven't but to say we're clutching at straws & trying to spread some blame is a little unfair i think Mate..

Unfortunately, West Ham have gained a reputation for racism over the years. There was a time when the National Front used to peddle their filth called Bulldog and West Ham were near top of their sales. The others Chelsea, Leeds and topping them all ... Exeter City I have to say that I can't remember noticing Millwall in the top ten.** But all clubs have their neanderthal buffoons. And there is none that is immune.

It wasn't 600 of our Fans who didn't have Tickets at the end of the day & still travelled so i don't feel if we really need to " spread the blame ".

That's not really the point, Singers. It's not Hillsborough that we're speculating about here. It's who is largely responsible for the violence. And I can't for the life of me imagine that it was 2,500 Millwall vs 30,000 West Ham who were to blame. That would be suicide.

& if you really want to believe that Collison walked off crying in disgust of his Fans who ran on to the Pitch to celebrate a couple of Goals, when his Dad died 48 hours earlier, then you crack on...

Anyone who has known true grief, will also know that it takes little to bring it to the surface. I think maybe that it'd have been better had he not played so close to his loss. And how dreadful that his father should die on a motorcycle given as a present by young Collison.

Afterword

** Although there was/is an affiliation between some supporters of the three British teams bearing lions of their shirts and loyalist paramilitaries in Northern Ireland and certain extreme, far right groups on the mainland.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Happy Hammer

[mrtoad]

Looks like the drunken mongels are back from Costa pissup , if the government stopped paying this poxy family tax credit in this country ( which is keeping the wages down for everyone else that does,nt quailify for handouts ) 75% of this shit would,nt be able to afford to go

family tax credit is the reason that wages are being kept low? that's one of the stupidest, most naive and moronic things i have ever read. congratulations.

You obviously haven't read some of his other posts.

[mrtoad]

Just curious here, how is this related to Thailand?

Just curious, what's your IQ?

[MSingh]

The real trouble is the hatred never died

Ken Dyer

26.08.09 adverts.addToArray("sky", "120x600,160x600"); West Ham 3-1 MillwallWe hoped it had disappeared forever but deep down, we knew it was still out there, festering, simmering.

And on a late summer's evening in east London, the violence which we prayed had left our football grounds for good, came snarling back in all its ugliness.

The first mistake they made when West Ham were paired at home to Millwall in the second round of the Carling Cup was not to have a redraw.

The second one was not playing this match in an empty stadium on a day and time not previously announced.

For those who remembered matches between these two London rivals were dreading the worst from the moment the draw was made.

The antagonism between these two clubs goes back a long, long way.

For some it is the keenest sort of rivalry, for others something altogether more sinister. Today, when the blood is washed from the pavements of east London and the ripped seats, coins and other detritus are cleared from the pitch, questions will be asked.

What could have been done to prevent the trouble inside the ground, the fighting with the police, the pitch invasions, the missile throwing, the alleged racial abuse of West Ham striker Carlton Cole?

The Football Association will want answers and are sure to come down heavily if they believe that the planning for such a match was inadequate.

West Ham fans were, for example, allowed to cavort on the pitch, dangerously close to both sets of players at times, before disappearing into the crowd again.

Why, it will be asked, weren't the stewards more pro-active? The answer could be that they weren't being paid danger money and were, funnily enough, not that keen on getting a smack in the mouth.

The truth is that, even in these so-called enlightened times, those that seek out trouble will usually find it.

For the sensible fans in the crowd of 24,492 at Upton Park, it left a nasty taste in the mouth. West Ham manager Gianfranco Zola, for example, was shocked by what he had witnessed.

Zola is a disciple of the beautiful game. He made life more palatable for tens of thousands of supporters when he was a player and his mantra now he is a manager is similar.

Yes, he wants his teams to win but above all, he wants his players to entertain, to play with a smile on their face and stardust in their boots.

Yet we saw him down by the touchline last night, watching the violence and the hatred erupt and you could see he was hurt. He was dumbfounded, speechless and forlorn.

He was thinking, 'Why are you doing this? You are not even watching the game? I do not understand it.'

Normally the Sardinian smiles easily, he likes people to be happy but last night, there was no laughing, just a lot of head shaking and a look of disappointment, almost disillusionment.

Somehow, though, amongst all the mayhem, this cup tie unfolded dramatically. Millwall started the match by far the better of the two and fully deserved their 21st-minute goal from striker Neil Harris.

West Ham, with four changes from Sunday's match against Tottenham, were out of sorts, sluggish and within four minutes of going out of the Carling Cup before one of their young players, Junior Stanislas, slammed home an equaliser.

That, and everything else that was going on around them, seemed to knock the stuffing out of Kenny Jackett's Millwall and when Andy Frampton handballed in extra-time, Stanislas scored his second goal of the night from the penalty spot.

The best goal was scored by substitute Zavon Hines after 101 minutes of play but Zola was in no mood to celebrate.On a thoroughly distasteful night, though, there was just one thing that lifted the spirits.

It was the sight of young West Ham midfielder Jack Collison, playing the full 120 minutes despite the tragic death of his father Ian, in a motorcycle accident as he travelled to watch his son play against Spurs on Sunday.

Zola said afterwards that Collison insisted that he wanted to play despite his broken heart.

"He showed what kind of boy he is. Not many would have done the same thing," said the West Ham manager.

At the end Collison, the tears streaming down his cheeks, stayed out on the pitch to acknowledge the supporters who had applauded loudly when his name was announced before the game started.

Some of them, of course, were already long gone, bent on finding more mayhem down the Barking Road.

Zola and the rest of us looked upon the ugly face of football last night - and were mortified.

Thank goodness then, for a young man named Jack Collison, who proved that there are still young men of true character and courage, ready to face any challenge, no matter how big or daunting.

[StevieH]

steve wouldnt doubt that for a second, and no doubt

that platini will have somthin to say bout it all,

well given that he's had it in for english football fans in general since heysel, it wouldn't surprise me to hear him drop that line about the 'english disease' again. when there's far, far worse happens in italy, russia, holland and other countries every season.

incidentally, thought the millwall fans' abuse of jack collison was pretty fuc_king tasteless.

Did you hear the abuse? - I read that Collison walked off crying in disgust of his fans. Then again I also read that the away fans were making monkey sounds at Cole. I can't see it. I watched Millwall throughout the 90s - home and away. No racist chanting. We have black players. Why would do such a thing? - sounds like West Ham are clutching at sraws to try and spread some of the blame. Then again there is a lot of heresay.

And we still don't know which side the stabbed fan supported. I have heard on the grape it's a Millwall fan. Any ideas?

not personally no man, but a mate back in london who is a lions fan and who was there said the stuff about collison's dad was loud and fuc_king horrible. he didn't join in and got threatened with a kicking from fellow millwall fans when he tried to shout them down. some things are off limits.

incidentally the media bandwagon has started rolling: http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/200...-not-alone.html

edit: not that i believe that marcotti would for a moment have 'joined in the ruck'. he's an arsehol_e.

Edited August 26, 2009 by StevieH

[metisdead]

Just curious here, how is this related to Thailand?

Just curious, what's your IQ?

Ok, throw a yellow card at me and send the hooligans as well. I commited a sin. I apologize.

[mrtoad]

Just curious here, how is this related to Thailand?

Just curious, what's your IQ?

Ok, throw a yellow card at me and send the hooligans as well. I commited a sin. I apologize.

Certainly will not send the hooligans, personally I'd like to see them sent to Afghanistan and replace the brave men that have been sent there. Don't take too much the wrong way, this is the Football Thread, so it's primarily British. Luckily it is one of the few threads where we can discuss about the worlds most popular sport, without having to relate it to Thailand.

On another note, a sad day for the game and I hope that those involved in the violence are treated harshly, and furthermore that the Met are also investigated in to how they may or may not have prevented this. Seems like a right cock up to me.

[Geekfreaklover]

Spoke to a mate that was at the game. One observation he made was that the blokes that invaded the pitch the first and second time were simply directed back to their seats, then they jumped over and invaded the pitch again. If it had been at most grounds they would have been ejected from the stadium.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Geekfreaklover