Crackdown On Back-to-back Tourist Visa Applications

[clockworkorange]

OK, now we know why you're upset that other people can stay in Thailand on tourist visas and why you offer endless advice and warnings ...because people like you have to pay taxes and you resent that others do not. Thanks for making it clear.

I'm 50, retired and have enough offshore income to allow me to stay in Thailand without working, unlike people like you who need to work and pay taxes. I'm eligible for a retirement visa, but don't wish to take that route right now for reasons I shall not discuss here.

I don't envy you having to work in Thailand and pay taxes.

Don't delude yourself that all people who stay here on tourist visas are working. I'd hate to have to work in a 3rd world country. That's not why I live in Thailand.

I'm not upset at all, just a bit taken aback at such little respect for the rule of law, and such a cavalier attitude towards misrepresenting immigration status to the authorities. Such behaviour puts one at risk of prosecution and deportation.

If you really are entititled to a retirement visa as you say you are, why not just do the lawful thing and apply for one? And don'tinsult Thailand by calling it a 3rd world country, because it isn't one. People are just as successful and enjoy lucrative lives working in Thailand and paying their taxes lawfully, just as they do elsewhere.

[clockworkorange]

All people who are in Thailand pay taxes, either directly or indirectly. Whether it's income tax, or tax on the beer you buy from 7-11 on a 2 day holiday, we all pay tax! End of story.

Not quite so, and you know what they say about death and taxes ...

Just paying excise duty on a beer Chang isn't enough as far as the authorities are concerned. If you live in Thailand for more than 180 days per calendar year, the law considers you a resident for personal income tax purposes.

It's the law of the land. People who think that their tax liabilities for the year are discharged simply because they pay excise duty on a beer, or VAT on a meal at a restaurant, while living in Thailand full time, are sadly misinformed. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Edited October 3, 2009 by clockworkorange

[tijnebijn]

Many people who have ofshore income or retirement income already pay taxes in their home countries ,

even if its a small amount of tax ( over there ) but bring along many here to spend , it is protected

with treaties Thailand has with many countries , to avoid double taxing , so please do not scaremonger too much on this thread please .

But you are right when working in Thailand or from within Thailand all and everyone is supposed to pay tax indeed .

Wonder which former resurrected member you are clockworkorange , cause after 13 posts you know very well how to

troll into these threads don't you ?

Better this thread stays on topic me thinks .

[Krap]

If you are going to Penang and don't have tourist visas/extensions you could probably obtain a tourist visa free allowing a 60 day entry. You can always fly back from Penang and obtain a new 30 day visa exempt entry - the 15 day is for land/sea entry.

That eases my mind. I have some older tourist visas from my country and some extenstion at bkk imigratiom, but no visa run extensions.

Strange in a way they allow 30d via air and not land seing its quite cheap to fly theese days.

30 days extra will do the trick this time. Might get the free visa if available just in case i cant tear myself from the sweet fruites of this remarcable country.

Thanks

[tropo]

I'm not upset at all, just a bit taken aback at such little respect for the rule of law, and such a cavalier attitude towards misrepresenting immigration status to the authorities. Such behaviour puts one at risk of prosecution and deportation.

If you really are entititled to a retirement visa as you say you are, why not just do the lawful thing and apply for one? And don'tinsult Thailand by calling it a 3rd world country, because it isn't one. People are just as successful and enjoy lucrative lives working in Thailand and paying their taxes lawfully, just as they do elsewhere.

Not upset my a**. It's obvious to anyone reading your posts that you angry, resentful, jealous, envious, annoyed, bitter and sour over people staying in Thailand on tourist visas and not paying taxes. Why else would a person enjoying such a lucrative, joyful life as you are waste your free tiime commenting in tourist visa threads and chastising people for breaking the law?

It's my business what visa I want to get, and I have good reasons why I'm happy with tourist visas right now. I certainly don't feel any need to explain my reasons to the likes of people like you. If you were a normal bloke without such a ridiculous 'high horse' attitude I'd be quite happy to.

Thailand is a 3rd world country, there's no doubt. What would you call it?

Edited October 3, 2009 by tropo

[Maestro]

An off-topic post and replies to it and flames have been deleted.

--

Maestro

[clockworkorange]

Not upset my a**. It's obvious to anyone reading your posts that you angry, resentful, jealous, envious, annoyed, bitter and sour over

It's my business what visa I want to get, and I have good reasons why I'm happy with tourist visas right now.

Thailand is a 3rd world country, there's no doubt. What would you call it?

Thailand is a newly indistrialised country, a developing country. To call it a third world country simply isn't true.

Regards the rest of your post, it's true that I hold tax evasion in low regard. We all have a duty to pay tax, but if you want to evade taxes and defraud immigration, that's up to you. To encourage others to do it under tthe guise of advice would also make you feel better about your precarious legal situation too, I guess. But don't be disappointed and whine simply because the autorities are cracking down on what is essentiallyy an illegal practice.

Edited October 4, 2009 by clockworkorange

[JR Texas]

I'm not upset at all, just a bit taken aback at such little respect for the rule of law, and such a cavalier attitude towards misrepresenting immigration status to the authorities. Such behaviour puts one at risk of prosecution and deportation.

If you really are entititled to a retirement visa as you say you are, why not just do the lawful thing and apply for one? And don'tinsult Thailand by calling it a 3rd world country, because it isn't one. People are just as successful and enjoy lucrative lives working in Thailand and paying their taxes lawfully, just as they do elsewhere.

Not upset my a**. It's obvious to anyone reading your posts that you angry, resentful, jealous, envious, annoyed, bitter and sour over people staying in Thailand on tourist visas and not paying taxes. Why else would a person enjoying such a lucrative, joyful life as you are waste your free tiime commenting in tourist visa threads and chastising people for breaking the law?

It's my business what visa I want to get, and I have good reasons why I'm happy with tourist visas right now. I certainly don't feel any need to explain my reasons to the likes of people like you. If you were a normal bloke without such a ridiculous 'high horse' attitude I'd be quite happy to.

Thailand is a 3rd world country, there's no doubt. What would you call it?

Interesting that Mr. CO (good movie, by the way) said nobody responded to his comment about farangs not paying taxes........I did and he ignored my response.

About taxes..........how many times have you gone into a Thai-owned shop and paid for something and not received a receipt? Why? Anything to do with taxes? Of course and no need to explain it.

This is common practice in Thailand..........the first thing immigration should do, if it is concerned about loss of tax revenues, is to address the problem of Thai businesses not paying their fair share of taxes.

One final point: Thailand is a developing country..........Third World country.............no question about it.

[Petbon]

All people who are in Thailand pay taxes, either directly or indirectly. Whether it's income tax, or tax on the beer you buy from 7-11 on a 2 day holiday, we all pay tax! End of story.

[/qu

Free loaders love that excuse for expecting others to carry them.

[tropo]

But don't be disappointed and whine simply because the autorities are cracking down on what is essentiallyy an illegal practice.

You're the one doing the whining - that people aren't paying their taxes, working illegally etc etc.

People like me come here to find out the latest information. We never take things for granted and know full well that things change frequently. I've personally lived through dozens of changes; some for the better, some for the worse. We certainly don't need the likes of you cheering whenever things get harder and complaining when they get easier.

I see you joined Thaivisa.com on the September 18 (surely not your first time), a week after the crackdown was announced and all of your posts are in tourist visa threads, cheering for the new Thai Immigration policy and offering incorrect advice on other visa options.

[atchara]

Hi,

I don’t understand something. I live in Thailand for 6 years with a tourist visa, ok if i get the red stamp on my passport and the next time my tourist visa is refused, it’s mean i can re-enter in Thailand for 1 month or 15 days and then i have to leave the country how long I have to wait for my new applying visa is accepted ? What is the rule exactly? How long we can stay in Thailand with a tourist visa or how many tourist visa we can do? 6 months in Thailand and 6 months in another country is possible?

Thanks a lot !

[RandyWhite]

First, the vast majority of farangs do not want to work in Thailand.

But there are a lot that do.

Now, what is the motivation behind this latest crackdown?

1) People living in Thailand on tourist visas are not in the tax system, which seems to be the reason behind why the authorities want to end the practice. Non-imm visa holders have been screened, and for many the only way that they will be able to stay in Thailand is to get work permits, and start paying income tax. This presents a revenue opportunity for the cash strapped government, and it is difficult to deny that governments the world over rightly expect residents to pay income tax.

2) Thailand gets constantly bashed for harbouring high profile criminals who are on the run. Clearly, this represents only a tiny fraction of one percent of all the good people who bend the rules with back-to-back tourist visas, but it has been a source of national embarassment nonetheless, as we have seen in the newspapers. Forcing people to return to their home countries once in a while, screening them in this way, solves this problem

Correction: A lot of people working without a permit DO pay income tax and we ALL pay VAT, right?

[abdulrahman]

Not upset my a**. It's obvious to anyone reading your posts that you angry, resentful, jealous, envious, annoyed, bitter and sour over

It's my business what visa I want to get, and I have good reasons why I'm happy with tourist visas right now.

Thailand is a 3rd world country, there's no doubt. What would you call it?

Thailand is a newly indistrialised country, a developing country. To call it a third world country simply isn't true.

Developing Country is a much nicer way to call a backward Country=Third world Country.

About taxes look at the(Thai) statistics,compared to the first world,about the amount of income taxes versus VAT,customs,lottery and on.

You may ask any expat too if he/she would like to pay taxes in Thailand (as a NON resident)or in his/her home country!

[clockworkorange]

People like me come here to find out the latest information. We never take things for granted and know full well that things change frequently. I've personally lived through dozens of changes; some for the better, some for the worse. We certainly don't need the likes of you cheering whenever things get harder and complaining when they get easier.

In a very roundabout way you no longer deny that what you are doing is an illegal practice. While you might not care about breaking the law by defrauding the immigration bureau and also the revenue department about your residency status, misrepresenting your reason to stay and failing to lodge tax returns even though you are living in Thailand, there are those that prefer to act lawfully. My advice is intended for them, not you, so please save your crowing about how you get away with breaking the law.

In my long experience living in Thailand, I recommend the legal way. It saves a great deal of worry in the long run, and paves the way for a more secure life in Thailand than the pretence of trying to live on tourist visas indefinitely.

Edited October 5, 2009 by clockworkorange

[clockworkorange]

About taxes..........how many times have you gone into a Thai-owned shop and paid for something and not received a receipt? Why? Anything to do with taxes? Of course and no need to explain it.

My dentist takes thousands of baht from me and has never issued a receipt. Perhaps we should send CO over there to organise an audit on behalf of the tax office.

Of course this is only one example of many, but a good one because of the amount of baht he takes in. How dare these Thais try to avoid paying their taxes...but really, you gotta feel sorry for people like CO who work their as**s off in a 3rd world country and cannot avoid paying taxes on fixed salaries.

There you go again, telling us all that tax evasion is a virtue. Tax cheats are freeloaders, period, be they Thai or foreign. Argue that point with the revenue department, why don't you?

Paying personal income tax while legally permitted to work translates to rights in Thailand, which you clearly don't have, and are unable to get by the looks of it. People like you who call Thailand 'third world' are usually those who have failed to gain any kind of status, and who are left on the outside, insecurely looking in, and about to get kicked out at any moment, Mr. Tourist

Edited October 5, 2009 by clockworkorange

[clockworkorange]

Interesting that Mr. CO (good movie, by the way) said nobody responded to his comment about farangs not paying taxes........I did and he ignored my response.

About taxes..........how many times have you gone into a Thai-owned shop and paid for something and not received a receipt? Why? Anything to do with taxes? Of course and no need to explain it.

This is common practice in Thailand..........the first thing immigration should do, if it is concerned about loss of tax revenues, is to address the problem of Thai businesses not paying their fair share of taxes.

One final point: Thailand is a developing country..........Third World country.............no question about it.

Yes, it was a good movie.

JR, my dear friend, the fact that people get away with cheating the taxman doesn't make it right. Civilised society the world over is based on the rule of law, and tax collection is a cornerstone of that. Thailand is very corrupt, as we know, but the fact remains that cheating taxes will take the country backwards, rather than forwards.

You, being Texan of sound values, can relate to that I hope.

[suadao]

A tourist from a " devolping country" cant work illegally in the so called " developed countries "

whats good for the goose is good for the gander

[Crossy]

Let's play nicely ladies and gentlemen

Several inflamatory posts, and the replies to them have been removed (still working on that).

And Clockwork Orange (Arancia Mechanica as I saw it) was probably one of the best movies of its era.

[My Friend Same]

Wow, where there an official Thai immigration statement linking this tourist visa crackdown with income tax evasion? I must have missed that if true. Can someone clear that up or is it BS?

Edited October 5, 2009 by My Friend Same

[Crossy]

Wow, where there an official Thai immigration statement linking this tourist visa crackdown with income tax evasion? I must have missed that if true. Can someone clear that up or is it BS?

No direct link of course, but those working on back to back TVs will not be paying (therefore will be evading) income tax.

[loong]

Wow, where there an official Thai immigration statement linking this tourist visa crackdown with income tax evasion? I must have missed that if true. Can someone clear that up or is it BS?

Yes, It IS BS

[ukfamily]

Personally I fail to see the problem. If someone is a genuine tourist they have nothing to fear. On the other hand if they are working on tourist visas then they only have themselves to blame.

Agree with this, nothing's saying that you can't get 2 tourist visas back to back as long as you're a genuine tourist. Try getting a 3rd or 4th, though, and you'd have a hard time convincing them you're on holiday for a year.

So if you were a genuine traveller that wanted to spend the 5 months of winter in Thailand would this be possible? If so how does one go about it?

Edited October 5, 2009 by ukfamily

[eek]

I aIways put down that my reason for wanting to be in ThaiIand is to continue my sabbaticaI. Which, if im not wrong, is an extended stay/hoIiday. So, the tourist visa doesnt faII under that? Then, why wouId the embassy accept my appIication? Its the gov/embassies caII on whether the appIicant is given a tourist visa or not, so Iong as the appIicant is being honest, so no need for raised eyebrows pIease just because some of us have a few back to back visas.

edit: Oh yeh, and i paid for my visa, thank you, and i am taxed in the UK..so give us a break!

Edited October 5, 2009 by eek

[thaiphoon]

Personally I fail to see the problem. If someone is a genuine tourist they have nothing to fear. On the other hand if they are working on tourist visas then they only have themselves to blame.

Agree with this, nothing's saying that you can't get 2 tourist visas back to back as long as you're a genuine tourist. Try getting a 3rd or 4th, though, and you'd have a hard time convincing them you're on holiday for a year.

So if you were a genuine traveller that wanted to spend the 5 months of winter in Thailand would this be possible? If so how does one go about it?

We gave you an answer to that question yesterday

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Extending-Visas-t303881.html

[Maestro]

… I don’t understand something. I live in Thailand for 6 years with a tourist visa, ok if i get the red stamp on my passport and the next time my tourist visa is refused, it’s mean i can re-enter in Thailand for 1 month or 15 days and then i have to leave the country how long I have to wait for my new applying visa is accepted ? What is the rule exactly? How long we can stay in Thailand with a tourist visa or how many tourist visa we can do? 6 months in Thailand and 6 months in another country is possible?...

There can be no clear-cut answer to your question as the issuance of a visa is always at the discretion of the consulate where you apply. A visa application in your country of residence probably has a better chance than in a neighbouring country of Thailand, but your current country of residence appears to be Thailand and if you put this in your application it will not look like you are a tourist wanting to visit Thailand for the purpose of tourism. The major aspect, in my opinion, will be to demonstrate to the consul, perhaps with a covering letter accompanying your visa application, that after six years of visiting Thailand for the purpose of tourism there are still places you would like to visit or visit a second time. Evidence of really having visited Thailand for tourism in the past six year will be helpful, plus a copy of your intended itineray for your new tourism visit.

--

Maestro

[clockworkorange]

There can be no clear-cut answer to your question as the issuance of a visa is always at the discretion of the consulate where you apply. A visa application in your country of residence probably has a better chance than in a neighbouring country of Thailand, but your current country of residence appears to be Thailand and if you put this in your application it will not look like you are a tourist wanting to visit Thailand for the purpose of tourism. The major aspect, in my opinion, will be to demonstrate to the consul, perhaps with a covering letter accompanying your visa application, that after six years of visiting Thailand for the purpose of tourism there are still places you would like to visit or visit a second time. Evidence of really having visited Thailand for tourism in the past six year will be helpful, plus a copy of your intended itineray for your new tourism visit.

--

Maestro

But, there is less and less chance that a regional consulate or embassy will believe that you are a tourist, not residing in Thailand, especially after 6 years. A letter saying that you would like to have another look at the Grand Palace is unlikely to change that, so it is sensible to be prepared for a refusal, and not to plan on living in Thailand unless you have the right kind of visa

[clockworkorange]

Wow, where there an official Thai immigration statement linking this tourist visa crackdown with income tax evasion? I must have missed that if true. Can someone clear that up or is it BS?

No direct link of course, but those working on back to back TVs will not be paying (therefore will be evading) income tax.

And the law states that you should file a tax return if you spend more than 180 days per calendar year in Thailand, something which long stay tourists are obviously failing to do. If money is coming from savings abroad and does not attract Thai income tax, a la tourist, then that's fine, but the authorities won't put up with that forever and will expect personal income tax (or another valid reason to stay) sooner or later. Given that the pretext for this latest crackdown was to curb illegal workers, it could just be that tax collection has something to do with that ... I can't understand why people are so defensive when I discuss the motivation of a crackdown, and as soon as I mention the dreaded 'tax' word.

True, the Thai immigrations laws are tough on people who are under 50, not married to a Thai, are not working and/or lack sufficient funds. Most countries do expect people who are of working age, have no links to the country and/or are not rich to move on. Life isn't fair, and Thailand has a sovereign right to decide who stays and who goes.

[clockworkorange]

I aIways put down that my reason for wanting to be in ThaiIand is to continue my sabbaticaI. Which, if im not wrong, is an extended stay/hoIiday. So, the tourist visa doesnt faII under that? Then, why wouId the embassy accept my appIication? Its the gov/embassies caII on whether the appIicant is given a tourist visa or not, so Iong as the appIicant is being honest, so no need for raised eyebrows pIease just because some of us have a few back to back visas.

edit: Oh yeh, and i paid for my visa, thank you, and i am taxed in the UK..so give us a break!

I'm surprised that people here seem to have such a simplistic view of tax legislation.

People should bear in mind that paying for a visa, paying tax elsewhere, paying tax on a beer, paying VAT, etc, doesn't necessarily discharge you from other obligations that you may have to the Thai tax authorities regards a variety of other taxes, including personal income tax. That is, paying one kind of tax doesn't necessarily exempt you from the remainder of the list of taxes that you may have a legal obligation to pay.

[clockworkorange]

A tourist from a " devolping country" cant work illegally in the so called " developed countries "

whats good for the goose is good for the gander

Agreed. Why should Thailand be so lenient on people who make aa mockery of its immigration and tax rules?

Edited October 6, 2009 by clockworkorange

[Thanh-BKK]

Mr. clockworkorange

You seem to be the tax-man himself. So answer me:

Why does Thailand make it so INSANELY difficult for people who WANT to pay tax to do just that..????

Oh dear i want so much to pay my tax and get my work permit, the sooner the better, at best three years ago..... however the hurdles in the way of my small company (not mine but the one i illegally work for) are so sky-high that it just simply impossible to comply with the rules. And it is all about greed - the revenue department would get a lot more money if they would allow us to get four work permits WITHOUT needing 8 million Baht registered capital (and the attached company taxes!) or 16 Thais sitting there doing nothing but wasting money so we could all pay our individual income tax - but no, all they want is the company tax which would bankrupt the firm right at the start.... so we stay in the grey, forced to remain so by the very rules that we are breaking. Catch-22? Yes, and not the only one in this country.

Best regards......

Thanh