If a burglar sneaks into my home, he WILL get his lights knocked out by me.

If (as has happened) a would-be rapist tries it on with my daughter, he WILL be bloodied and bruised (and was ).

If any country invades mine, I WILL take up arms.

What would you do if millions of your people were robbed of their possessions, systematically rounded up like cattle and 6 million of those slowly put to death through starvation, slave labor, medical experiments and gas chambers? Would you let people launch rockets into your cities? Would you let a madman in a nearby country talk of wiping you off the map while developing nuclear weapons?

No, hes useless, not unlike a few other presidents proceeding him, pity.

Did I call you a coward? I said pacifists aren't cowards. One day on a Mexican army base, I told a two-star general that the Christian pacifist Mayan girl at our feet was braver than his army soldiers, who hid behind their guns which were used to kill her friends. Then we ordered him to resign because he was a Christian.

What happened next? Was the 2 star general overwhelmed by your words and resigned or did he just have the girl shot? What were you doing on a Mexican army base in the first place?

He was speechless. He allowed us to stay on base for a week. We were trespassing; he permitted us to stay. The girl stayed several hours, and went home, unharmed. The general ignored his divine orders.

I met Mayan, Catholic, absolute pacifists. They died a martyr's death, rather than have a man's blood on their hands.Their survivors don't have revenge, nor do the survivors from the Amish at Nickel Mine, Pennsylvania. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish_school_shooting

I met Mayan, Catholic, absolute pacifists. They died a martyr's death, rather than have a man's blood on their hands.Their survivors don't have revenge, nor do the survivors from the Amish at Nickel Mine, Pennsylvania. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish_school_shooting

That's where peace promoting and I go our seperate ways. I'd die for my children but not for an idea/philosophy.

Sometimes a philosophy or an idea can save the lives of generations of children to come.

Our way of life is important, the war our fathers fought in WW2 could have been avoided, they could have said that what the Germans did in Europe was nothing to do with them and pretended the concentration camps never existed.

Eventually the free countries would have been picked off one at a time though, condemning future generations to murder and slavery.

I could never see the point of WW1, both grandfathers fought in that, one spent 4 years in a prison camp.

That hasn't come out the way I wanted it to, slept in this morning.

Ok, I see your point about philosophy and ideas having potential for great importance.

I suppose I need to rephrase; I'd die for my children, and if I believed an idea/philosophy was essential to my children's life, I would have to defend that idea to the death also.

I'm beginning to see PB's view....not that I agree with it as I do not hold with religion, but I can empathise as PB DOES believe.

IF - perhaps the biggest IF of all - is that you have to love first, last and always, then you cannot destroy human life. That is the core of faith. Everything else is secondary. A 'faith' that kills humans is fatally flawed and undeserving to be believed. Your leaders were mistaken.

IF - perhaps the biggest IF of all - is that you have to love first, last and always, then you cannot destroy human life. That is the core of faith. Everything else is secondary. A 'faith' that kills humans is fatally flawed and undeserving to be believed. Your leaders were mistaken.

kill or be killed come to mind

IF - perhaps the biggest IF of all - is that you have to love first, last and always, then you cannot destroy human life. That is the core of faith. Everything else is secondary. A 'faith' that kills humans is fatally flawed and undeserving to be believed. Your leaders were mistaken.

It only works if the bad guys follow the ideology too.

I believe PeaceBlondie needs to get his head back to reality. He should watch that old movie, "High Noon".

The good guy wins and rides away with the pretty girl....but only after he kills the bad guys, with the pretty girls help.

Give the country back to the injuns?

That NOT as stupid as it sounds.

Reckon Hilary mite be a good option too.

Like give New Zealand back to the Maoris...<deleted>.

Dunno about OZ and the Australian Aboriginals.

You mean one option is to give Hillary to the injuns. Agrred it would solve one problem, but doubt if the injuns would find the prospect so appealing.

caf

Did I call you a coward? I said pacifists aren't cowards. One day on a Mexican army base, I told a two-star general that the Christian pacifist Mayan girl at our feet was braver than his army soldiers, who hid behind their guns which were used to kill her friends. Then we ordered him to resign because he was a Christian.

What happened next? Was the 2 star general overwhelmed by your words and resigned or did he just have the girl shot? What were you doing on a Mexican army base in the first place?

He was speechless. He allowed us to stay on base for a week. We were trespassing; he permitted us to stay. The girl stayed several hours, and went home, unharmed. The general ignored his divine orders.

I was not there of course, PB was. Most generals would have just ignored comments like that, they carry out orders. Shows his strenth though in allowing such comments to be made and allowing pb et al to stay on base. Perfect diplomacy on his part.

IF - perhaps the biggest IF of all - is that you have to love first, last and always, then you cannot destroy human life. That is the core of faith. Everything else is secondary. A 'faith' that kills humans is fatally flawed and undeserving to be believed. Your leaders were mistaken.

It only works if the bad guys follow the ideology too.

No. You don't know what works until you've lived it for a lifetime. Destruction destroys. Love creates peace.

IF - perhaps the biggest IF of all - is that you have to love first, last and always, then you cannot destroy human life. That is the core of faith. Everything else is secondary. A 'faith' that kills humans is fatally flawed and undeserving to be believed. Your leaders were mistaken.

It only works if the bad guys follow the ideology too.

No. You don't know what works until you've lived it for a lifetime. Destruction destroys. Love creates peace.

Love creates peace within. But you can ask the surviving families of the many many missionaries if they wish that those peaceful souls were still alive and, if given another chance, would they have preferred to have been slaughtered with love in their hearts, or would they have preferred to have successfully, violently if necessary, defended themselves and still be with the living.

You are up against the nature of the beast in all this. In the big circle of life we are just a hair's breath away from clubs and caves. The notion that you can change en-mass a basically violent , territorial, killing for the hel_l of it, machine like a human being is sadly flawed. History is and always will be full of heroic dead people who have tried.

IF - perhaps the biggest IF of all - is that you have to love first, last and always, then you cannot destroy human life. That is the core of faith. Everything else is secondary. A 'faith' that kills humans is fatally flawed and undeserving to be believed. Your leaders were mistaken.

It only works if the bad guys follow the ideology too.

No. You don't know what works until you've lived it for a lifetime. Destruction destroys. Love creates peace.

Love creates peace within. But you can ask the surviving families of the many many missionaries if they wish that those peaceful souls were still alive and, if given another chance, would they have preferred to have been slaughtered with love in their hearts, or would they have preferred to have successfully, violently if necessary, defended themselves and still be with the living.

I've read my share of martyrs' histories http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents...yr%27s%20Mirror and heard some first hand, such as the survivors of the Acteal massacre. You can't have love in your heart for the enemy when you're killing.

True. Love for one's enemy when trying to stay alive while he is trying to end your life is not possible. However, love for one's family and oneself in that circumstance is what survival is about. It is not about love for one who is determined to end your life. Furthermore, when one is determined to kill everyone that he can - i.e. a kamikaze pilot or an assassin at the top of a building shooting anyone and everyone that he can, then ending his life to enable many to survive is praiseworthy, and I believe doable with love in one's heart; love for humanity, not love for the perpetrator.

Well said, Venturalaw.

True. Love for one's enemy when trying to stay alive while he is trying to end your life is not possible. However, love for one's family and oneself in that circumstance is what survival is about. It is not about love for one who is determined to end your life. Furthermore, when one is determined to kill everyone that he can - i.e. a kamikaze pilot or an assassin at the top of a building shooting anyone and everyone that he can, then ending his life to enable many to survive is praiseworthy, and I believe doable with love in one's heart; love for humanity, not love for the perpetrator.

I hesitate to call somebody uninformed after they graduated from law school. You're entitled to your opinion, even if is uninformed. If is possible to love your enemy if you have courage and faith. Martyr's Mirror tells of a loving Christian who was being chased by a magistrate who was trying to deliver him to his execution. The magistrate fell into a freezing lake and started to drown. The Christian pacifist stopped, rescued him, and was led to his death. Alonso was a Christian, Mayan pacifist and catechist at Acteal when the paramilitary found his family. As they were killed, Alonso said, "Father, forgive him."

You can learn things after law school.

True. Love for one's enemy when trying to stay alive while he is trying to end your life is not possible. However, love for one's family and oneself in that circumstance is what survival is about. It is not about love for one who is determined to end your life. Furthermore, when one is determined to kill everyone that he can - i.e. a kamikaze pilot or an assassin at the top of a building shooting anyone and everyone that he can, then ending his life to enable many to survive is praiseworthy, and I believe doable with love in one's heart; love for humanity, not love for the perpetrator.

I hesitate to call somebody uninformed after they graduated from law school. You're entitled to your opinion, even if is uninformed. If is possible to love your enemy if you have courage and faith. Martyr's Mirror tells of a loving Christian who was being chased by a magistrate who was trying to deliver him to his execution. The magistrate fell into a freezing lake and started to drown. The Christian pacifist stopped, rescued him, and was led to his death. Alonso was a Christian, Mayan pacifist and catechist at Acteal when the paramilitary found his family. As they were killed, Alonso said, "Father, forgive him."

You can learn things after law school.

I'd save the magistrate from drowning but wouldn't hang around after. Too smart for that.

Who says that needlessly giving up your life is a good thing anyway? Is it that "life is precious" is only true when it is someone else's?

True. Love for one's enemy when trying to stay alive while he is trying to end your life is not possible. However, love for one's family and oneself in that circumstance is what survival is about. It is not about love for one who is determined to end your life. Furthermore, when one is determined to kill everyone that he can - i.e. a kamikaze pilot or an assassin at the top of a building shooting anyone and everyone that he can, then ending his life to enable many to survive is praiseworthy, and I believe doable with love in one's heart; love for humanity, not love for the perpetrator.

I hesitate to call somebody uninformed after they graduated from law school. You're entitled to your opinion, even if is uninformed. If is possible to love your enemy if you have courage and faith. Martyr's Mirror tells of a loving Christian who was being chased by a magistrate who was trying to deliver him to his execution. The magistrate fell into a freezing lake and started to drown. The Christian pacifist stopped, rescued him, and was led to his death. Alonso was a Christian, Mayan pacifist and catechist at Acteal when the paramilitary found his family. As they were killed, Alonso said, "Father, forgive him."

You can learn things after law school.

I can see your point about pacifism ( I'm sure venturalaw and others can too) and I take off my hat to you for accepting that people have a right to their opinions. "You're entitled to your opinion"

But, PB, you show your real view of free speech by then adding words which show you don't accept other people's views at all. Quite franky, a cheap jibe. "You're entitled to your opinion, even if it (sic) is uninformed.

Venturalaw's comments seem realistic pragmatic and balanced; and while I accept certain pacifist principles I think they must be tempered with real life situations. In my view, your argument would be more persuasive if you did not "attack" in a debate. ( Maybe for another topic, but should pacifists attack? )

caf

There are probably better examples you could have quoted but I'd like to follow up the story on Alonso, do you have a source that would let me do that.

True. Love for one's enemy when trying to stay alive while he is trying to end your life is not possible. However, love for one's family and oneself in that circumstance is what survival is about. It is not about love for one who is determined to end your life. Furthermore, when one is determined to kill everyone that he can - i.e. a kamikaze pilot or an assassin at the top of a building shooting anyone and everyone that he can, then ending his life to enable many to survive is praiseworthy, and I believe doable with love in one's heart; love for humanity, not love for the perpetrator.

I hesitate to call somebody uninformed after they graduated from law school. You're entitled to your opinion, even if is uninformed. If is possible to love your enemy if you have courage and faith. Martyr's Mirror tells of a loving Christian who was being chased by a magistrate who was trying to deliver him to his execution. The magistrate fell into a freezing lake and started to drown. The Christian pacifist stopped, rescued him, and was led to his death. Alonso was a Christian, Mayan pacifist and catechist at Acteal when the paramilitary found his family. As they were killed, Alonso said, "Father, forgive him."

You can learn things after law school.

I can see your point about pacifism ( I'm sure venturalaw and others can too) and I take off my hat to you for accepting that people have a right to their opinions. "You're entitled to your opinion"

But, PB, you show your real view of free speech by then adding words which show you don't accept other people's views at all. Quite franky, a cheap jibe. "You're entitled to your opinion, even if it (sic) is uninformed.

Venturalaw's comments seem realistic pragmatic and balanced; and while I accept certain pacifist principles I think they must be tempered with real life situations. In my view, your argument would be more persuasive if you did not "attack" in a debate. ( Maybe for another topic, but should pacifists attack? )

caf

There are probably better examples you could have quoted but I'd like to follow up the story on Alonso, do you have a source that would let me do that.

Lets debate the debate.

I think PB is entitled to claim an opinion is uninformed whilst maintaining a respect for free speech and other's entitlement to an opinion.

If PB believes in some ideas that he considers to be facts, and another person's opinion flies in the face of those "facts"....then from PB's point of view, the other person is uninformed while still having the right to opine.

Surely most opposing opinions imply a degree of ignorance with the other?

True. Love for one's enemy when trying to stay alive while he is trying to end your life is not possible. However, love for one's family and oneself in that circumstance is what survival is about. It is not about love for one who is determined to end your life. Furthermore, when one is determined to kill everyone that he can - i.e. a kamikaze pilot or an assassin at the top of a building shooting anyone and everyone that he can, then ending his life to enable many to survive is praiseworthy, and I believe doable with love in one's heart; love for humanity, not love for the perpetrator.

I hesitate to call somebody uninformed after they graduated from law school. You're entitled to your opinion, even if is uninformed. If is possible to love your enemy if you have courage and faith. Martyr's Mirror tells of a loving Christian who was being chased by a magistrate who was trying to deliver him to his execution. The magistrate fell into a freezing lake and started to drown. The Christian pacifist stopped, rescued him, and was led to his death. Alonso was a Christian, Mayan pacifist and catechist at Acteal when the paramilitary found his family. As they were killed, Alonso said, "Father, forgive him."

You can learn things after law school.

Yes, I can. And so may those who never attended law school. However if my life was cut short at the hands of an evil doer because, as a pacifist, I failed to defend myself, then I would be unable to continue to experience, and therefore learn, and perhaps protect others. However, one point raised that you failed to address was, in effect, the argument in favor of the use of violence to prevent further violence. In the Martyr's Mirror the loving Christian was fleeing to save his life only, and not faced with the prospect of defending others. Regarding Alonso watching as his family was slaughtered, not knowing the story I assume that he was not in a position to be able to save them. Therefore he was helpless. So, please educate those of us who remain uninformed. I have an open mind. Perhaps you have an argument that will change my opinion. I'd like to hear it.

Thank you, sincerely, one and all. I have concluded, after 35 years of studying both war and peace, that my debate opponents usually haven't studied more than a tiny bit about peace, and most of it was with a cavalier dismissal. I apologize to those who honestly, seriously studied it.

Had you known that Judaism holds the world's record for formerly being the longest proponent of nonviolence, with only a few minor exceptions? Did you know Christianity was totally nonviolent for its first 300 years? That a Quaker colony survived on the Indian frontier for 70 years? That Costa Rica dismantled its army over 60 years ago? That a third of the world's inhabitants live in countries liberated since 1945, nonviolently? That the only theory about warfare besides pacifism, is a 1,600-year failure that was never proven or tested, but blindly followed as demonic doctrine? Have you read Gandhi, later Tolstoi, MLK Jr, or Jesus regarding peace? Dorothy Day, John Howard Yoder, Cesar Chavez, Rigoberta Menchu?

Would you rape your daughter or another's daughter, if ordered to? Of course not. But would you kill because somebody told you to? Quite possibly. Sorry for the rape comparison again, but I see no better comparison.

But you don't have to be an absolute 100% proponent of pacifism. When you can clearly save a child's life without killing their attacker, fine. I'm a follower of a Supreme Commander who issued me clear, unequivocal orders to love my enemy. Period, full stop. Alonso loved his murderer, who was a neighbor of the same Maya tribe. His surviving son and sister still love those killers. So do the Amish families at Nickel Mine, Pennsylvania. You wouldn't know "love your enemy" without trying it. Try it, even if Jesus isn't your Lord.

I'm a follower of a Supreme Commander who issued me clear, unequivocal orders to love my enemy.

I'm more a fan of his "Eye for an Eye" phase, before he got all flower power on us.

Here's Joan Baez' final line in that book: "The only thing that's been a bigger flop than the organization of non-violence has been the organization of violence." Martin Luther affirmed the Germans' love of violence and hatred toward Jews.

Thank you, sincerely, one and all. I have concluded, after 35 years of studying both war and peace, that my debate opponents usually haven't studied more than a tiny bit about peace, and most of it was with a cavalier dismissal. I apologize to those who honestly, seriously studied it.

That a third of the world's inhabitants live in countries liberated since 1945, nonviolently?

We've been through this part already and it has been disproved. Just what exactly have you been studying to make you unaware of that in the first place?

That a third of the world's inhabitants live in countries liberated since 1945, nonviolently?

We've been through this part already and it has been disproved. Just what exactly have you been studying to make you unaware of that in the first place?

You didn't disprove it, I didn't show the whole list. But wanting to make peace, I'll compromise at 30%. Or, see my Joan Baez quote, counting dead Russians.

What does Joan Baez have to do with anything?