British Envoy Puts Record Straight On Thai Image

[PeaceBlondie]

Both British diplomats past and present appear to act more circumspectly than foul-mouthed 'fighting Quaker' Hanoi-bombing Richard Nixon. Glad to see the current UK Ambassador was not a patrician. Maybe working class mugs are named Dracula and Butch.

[12DrinkMore]

Rumbold was spot on.

And NOTHING has changed in forty years. All that the current incumbent has to do is update the numbers and names....

And I loved the euphemism just at the end.

"The deterioration in my mental processes is due to .... the enervating effects of the climate"

Climate, my foot! He meant the Thais.

:D

[chiang mai]

Rumbold was spot on.

"The deterioration in my mental processes is due to .... the enervating effects of the climate"

I've always wondered about this aspect, somebody should start a poll to see if it's true.

[caf]

Both British diplomats past and present appear to act more circumspectly than foul-mouthed 'fighting Quaker' Hanoi-bombing Richard Nixon. Glad to see the current UK Ambassador was not a patrician. Maybe working class mugs are named Dracula and Butch.

Why are you glad he is not a patrician?

What he is of course is someone following orders even though amazng thailand is a bit of an odd retort from a diplomat.

[jayboy]

Why are you glad he is not a patrician?

The same thought occurred to me.I would have thought a patrician Ambassador was a positive, always assuming intelligence, diligence and humanity.Do we really want to be represented by commercial salesman types with dubious vowels as is often the case with Heads of Mission rather than someone with confidence, style and charm?

Several years ago a senior member of the British Embassy here told me that he was sure the Ambassador was well received here because he was more representative of the new Britain than some upper class stuff shirt.Very shortly afterwards a Thai mentioned to me how much his generation respected the classic English gentleman, and that in the past the British Ambassador was judged at least partly on how closely he approached that ideal.It struck me at the time as a rather surprising difference of opinion.The poor booby at the Embassy was quite convinced that foreigners would be impressed by the new style representatives of Blair's Britain.

The trouble is that the English gentleman is an endangered species, and will soon be extinct.Some on this forum can't get beyond the Monty Python sketch of upper class twits, but there was much more substance to the type.

[Lancelot]

Well, I made it through all 10 pages and I thought it was a well written, succinct and amazingly prophetic, especially with respect to Rumbold’s comments on the Thai wariness of China. He correctly predicted that the Thais would distance themselves from the US if/when the War in Vietnam came to an undesirable conclusion.

He also heaped praise on the Thais, observing they “have excellent manners…fastidious habits, graceful gestures...”

It was just one guy’s observations, never intended for public consumption and simply a briefing for his successor.

[OzMick]

please note that 'amazing thailand' is not necessarily a compliment.

[RubbaJohnny]

It was on Radio four weds am uk time

mathew paris read it

what is omitted from the clip was QQ's rejoinder

How their manners cleanliness and style was their real culture

Compare this to the tatooed thong and singlet attired whoremongers of Pattaya and te filthy backpakers of KSR

as Shakespeare wrote |The apparel oft portrays the man" It is these folks the tighter visa regime and STDs will diminish

For those who are innumerate QQ was writing four decades,a generation ago and was most certainly from the upper crust,

However I find his prescient succint and in no way disparaging comments as vivid today as then,onlyPC grovelling reveals the relative shift in power.Atrue scion of a literate past and a morsel odddddf wit from the upper crust where unlike the consumerist Hi-sos money worshipers there was a sense of irony litotes and noblesse oblige,

Myself nevr upper crust or near mere pie-filler recall our geography teacher who explained that the social pecking order meant that at the top one finds the cream and the scum,

BBC can be listened to via net R4 ilink here

bbc

Plus ca change mais toujours la meme shoes.Parris a very urbane commentator almosas polished as Clve James whois on at 330pm daily at present Thai time

Edited October 21, 2009 by RubbaJohnny

[Splatter]

UNDIPLOMATIC NOTE

British envoy puts record straight on Thai image

By The Nation

<SNIP>

In his statement issued Monday, Quayle - ambassador since 2007- said his views towards Thailand were very different from his predecessor of 42 years ago.

"Ever since I was first posted to Thailand 30 years ago [as Second Secretary,Political], I have been impressed by the richness of Thai culture, be it art, sculpture, dance, music or literature."

All this is embellished by the natural beauty of the landscape and the charm and warmth of the Thai people. The country for me certainly lives up to its brand name "Amazing Thailand," he said.

-- The Nation 2009/10/20

Nation Reporter:

"So Quentin me old fruit cake.

Would you like to comment about some other parts of yer man's farewell memo?"

If only.

[The Mask]

UNDIPLOMATIC NOTE

British envoy puts record straight on Thai image

By The Nation

<SNIP>

In his statement issued Monday, Quayle - ambassador since 2007- said his views towards Thailand were very different from his predecessor of 42 years ago.

"Ever since I was first posted to Thailand 30 years ago [as Second Secretary,Political], I have been impressed by the richness of Thai culture, be it art, sculpture, dance, music or literature."

All this is embellished by the natural beauty of the landscape and the charm and warmth of the Thai people. The country for me certainly lives up to its brand name "Amazing Thailand," he said.

-- The Nation 2009/10/20

Nation Reporter:

"So Quentin me old fruit cake.

Would you like to comment about some other parts of yer man's farewell memo?"

If only.

This Quayle guy is just an apologist and ass kisser par excellence. I have read the original document which was put out by his predecessor and it is shockingly accurate in every way. I think the moderators of Thai Visa should try to censor this document like they try to censor everything else which they deem negative towards their beloved Thailand.

[dee123]

Such an interesting document by Rumbold.If you read the document in full you will learn how the political stranglehold by the elite is maintained up to the present day..Another point which is probably worth mentioning is the praise for Puey Ungpakhorn....."He is unique in seeming to owe nobody any favors.He has reached his position by sheer ability and by his well deserved reputation for incorruptability",.......many would say the same could be said of his son Jon Ungpakhorn of Prachatai.com fame.

Edited October 21, 2009 by dee123

[animatic]

Sir Anthony was clearly a product of his times and his home culture,

seen through that lens and the coccoon he seems to have lived in in Thailand,

his comments while superficially might easily have matched his views.

Mr. Quale on the other hand regardless, of motives omn this apolgogia,

has much more and more accurate information at hand,

and also thinks to un-ruffle some feathers, or in de-wrinkle some faces in high places.

Easier to deal with Thai's, or most anyone, of they don't readily suspect you WILL,

send a poison-pen note back home readily on departure.

[Splatter]

Sir Anthony was clearly a product of his times and his home culture,

seen through that lens and the coccoon he seems to have lived in in Thailand,

his comments while superficially might easily have matched his views.

Mr. Quale on the other hand regardless, of motives omn this apolgogia,

has much more and more accurate information at hand,

and also thinks to un-ruffle some feathers, or in de-wrinkle some faces in high places.

Easier to deal with Thai's, or most anyone, of they don't readily suspect you WILL,

send a poison-pen note back home readily on departure.

Would I be correct to assume

that you didn't appreciate Rumbold's

"cocooned" observation regarding

Dr Puey Ungpakorn?

[cmsally]

Well this wasn't just about Thailand was it. Even the British bureaucracy was criticised. So who else received an apology?

Or was it the case that only the Thais kicked up a fuss and does this simply serve to point out another Thai trait - a general inability to accept criticism.

Yes I know it doesn't affect all Thais but it is a general trait of the population and culture.

And no I won't be giving an apology for pointing that out.

[hammered]

More a criticism on the kind of wanke_r the british establishment choose as an ambassador imho, but then working class socialists like me usually get ignored in albion Not like I wanna be an ambassador or any tossy job like that

[cmsally]

I presume you are talking about the present one and his unconvincing episode of trying to verbalize a TAT leaflet.

[Laganside]

Excusing alleged misdemeanours retrospectively is very much a modish phenomenon and typical of our current spin orientated world in which one might ingratiate superficially to obtain a cheap dividend without any meaningful commitment.

A classic of its type might be, say, a British politician bleeding tears of recrimination against the slave trade on the docks of Bristol to an audience of second generation Jamaicans whose presence was only gifted by the history he would wish to repudiate. Hardly germane to this thread but you do get my drift.

The irony does not necessarily apply in this case but the faint odour of callow hypocrisy does pinch the nostrils somewhat when one compares the contribution of Anthony Rumbold to that of his successor today. Whereas the former clearly understood the drivers operating Thai society trying to manage an occupation by the Americans in circumstances most at the time found disturbing and somewhat disruptive and was not adverse to sharing those concerns, the present incumbent's most recent claim to fame seems to have been a peculiar photo opportunity in which he is captured evidently enjoying the company of two Pattaya based British expats whose contribution to Thai society appears to be commercially focused, almost exclusively, among the scantily clad demi monde of that burgh.

That Quayle may have been aware his dinner companions that night had been embroiled in allegations of homosexual homicide, extortion and theft is not currently known although one might reasonably conclude that if the inestimable Rumbold had been there he would have simply dismissed it as typical of the licentiousness his successor is only too keen to disregard as fanciful.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Laganside

[JimsKnight]

Why are you glad he is not a patrician?

The same thought occurred to me.I would have thought a patrician Ambassador was a positive, always assuming intelligence, diligence and humanity.Do we really want to be represented by commercial salesman types with dubious vowels as is often the case with Heads of Mission rather than someone with confidence, style and charm?

Several years ago a senior member of the British Embassy here told me that he was sure the Ambassador was well received here because he was more representative of the new Britain than some upper class stuff shirt.Very shortly afterwards a Thai mentioned to me how much his generation respected the classic English gentleman, and that in the past the British Ambassador was judged at least partly on how closely he approached that ideal.It struck me at the time as a rather surprising difference of opinion.The poor booby at the Embassy was quite convinced that foreigners would be impressed by the new style representatives of Blair's Britain.

The trouble is that the English gentleman is an endangered species, and will soon be extinct.Some on this forum can't get beyond the Monty Python sketch of upper class twits, but there was much more substance to the type.

You're bang on.

I've just read the Ambassadors letter and it's pretty interesting reading. Once you get past the political mish-mash about the political personalities it's fascinating what he tells. Kind of like a snap-shot of the times.

Just after the bit where he puts down Thailand with his personal opinion he adds some very positive lines. I quote:

'But it does a jaded European good to spend some time among such a jolly, extrovert and anti-intellectual people. And if anyone wants to know what their culture consists of the answer is that it consists of themselves, their excellent manners, their fastidious habits, their graceful gestures and elegant persons. If we are elephants and oxen, they are gazelles and butterflies.'

[nisakiman]

More a criticism on the kind of wanke_r the british establishment choose as an ambassador imho, but then working class socialists like me usually get ignored in albion Not like I wanna be an ambassador or any tossy job like that

I wouldn't worry about your socialist credentials being compromised, old son. The chances of you being offered a job which requires tact, diplomacy, intelligence, perspicacity, education and the ability to interract with a wide range of society is about on a par with you being offered a seat on the first trip to mars.

[seri thai]

I think this "apology" goes beyond diplomacy and public relations and smacks of political correctness. I wonder if Ambassador Quayle has read all 10 pages of Sir Anthony's valedictory letter. He got a lot right. It is unfortunate that the remarks creating a stir were taken out of context.

Yes, I quite agree.

I listened to the programme "Parting Shots" on BBC Radio 4 and subesequently read the original documents.

The original confidential hand over document was not meant for release to foriegn embassies.

Due to a cock up, it was sent out to 120 embassies , and caused a great deal of embarrassment in the Far East.

Remember, the Viet Nam war was still raging.

I recommend any long term resident who has any interest in recent Thai History and politics reads it.

I think many "old hands" will find Sir Anthony Rumbold's following observation, still stands 42 years on...

"There is a small handful of foreigners who have lived here a long time, and whose opinions about the Thais are worth listening to...

But most of these confess to there benig great areas of the Thai mentality, which they have long ago given up attempting to penetrate."

Many thanks for the .pdf link which made fascinatingly prescient reading.

Actually it's not prescient, it's just that absolutely nothings changed! and therein lies whichever message you're looking for. A need for change or continuity??

As fahrangs, methinks best leave well alone.....

[dr_Pat_Pong]

More a criticism on the kind of wanke_r the british establishment choose as an ambassador imho, but then working class socialists like me usually get ignored in albion Not like I wanna be an ambassador or any tossy job like that

I wouldn't worry about your socialist credentials being compromised, old son. The chances of you being offered a job which requires tact, diplomacy, intelligence, perspicacity, education and the ability to interract with a wide range of society is about on a par with you being offered a seat on the first trip to mars.

[eggomaniac]

"There is a small handful of foreigners who have lived here a long time, and whose opinions about the Thais are worth listening to...

But most of these confess to there benig great areas of the Thai mentality, which they have long ago given up attempting to penetrate."

On my first visit to Thailand a group of American missionaries were at the hotel and I asked them how much success they were having. The repsonse was that it was near impossible to 'convert' Thais. I asked it was because they were stauch Bhuddists. The Reply was that it was more the thought processes.

The missionary guy explained it to me in a way that has stuck with me, and proven to be true.

He said, "Thais are like baloons. They are polite, listen and understand, just like pushing your finger in a baloon but as soon you take your finger out, it goes back to where it was."

----------

Funnily, I also met a young Bhuddist gal on a pilgrimage. She was fed up with trying to find Bhuddism in Thailand and was heading back to India. She said it was all about giving money to the monks and that's all they knew.

--------

NOW, I'm not saying there are no devout Thai Christians or Bhuddists, just relating some conversations. However, in my opinion, money is the sacrament in Thailand. [not that there is anything wrong with it]

[jayboy]

More a criticism on the kind of wanke_r the british establishment choose as an ambassador imho, but then working class socialists like me usually get ignored in albion Not like I wanna be an ambassador or any tossy job like that

I'm hoping Hammered is joking here.If this post from a guy who is usually rather thoughtful was taken at face value it would be truly depressing.

[yumidesign]

The arts here are weak compared with every country I've ever lived in, with no support or nurturing.

and the soulless architecture of thousands of ks of shop houses or bad copies of temple architecture is truly monotonous, and the idea interior design is hideous

as the old pom says

[Publicus]

By the time Thaksin and TRT had been in government a couple of years Thais were initiating aggressive approaches to the glorification of their culture, society, customs and traditions. Thais weren't polite conversationalists any longer; they certainly were not about to listen to anyone about anything.

Instead, Thais had become forwardly ethnocentric and nationalistic. Thais had become initators of aggressive comments and remarks, throwing around Thai-centric statements out of the blue, as when no one was saying anything at all.

Many Thais have ceased to be balloons but instead have become prickly aggressive hammers towards farang minding our own business. We've seen this abrasive attitude in the red, yellow, blue etc color conflict Thais have initiated and aggravated among themselves.

Since the 1997 self induced meltdown of the Thai economy and system of finance, Thais increasingly have become irritated, irritable and impossible among themselves.

[LomSak27]

Christ a Friday Publicus, blaming the old Taksinator for Thai ethnocentrism went out of fashion back in 06 after the coup, when even the most senile of alcoholic expats were forced to stand up and notice PAD and the Dems did the exact same thing

At best you can try to claim that Taxin started it - good luck as it has always been in Thailand. Say how is that temple dispute going with Cambodia anyway ... ?

[webfact]

Politicians, former politicians, convicted politicians and public figures we dislike have proper names. Please use them.

[citizen33]

Going back to the topic of Sir Anthony, it is hard to deny that he lived an interesting life. In contrast to his portrayal by one or two TV members as a 'stuffed shirt' he seems to have moved in rather unconventional, even mildly bohemian circles. After his stint in Bangkok, Sir Anthony married the former actress Pauline Baddeley, who learned her first tentative dance steps in the notorious Soho nightclub, the Gargoyle, which was owned by her father David Tennant. Pauline was known as one of the most beautiful women of her generation and many of the leading lights of the day are said to have attended their dinner parties. Tony Rumbold was Hermione's third husband and she reputedly said that she had first married a head, then a body, then a head with a body. Sir Anthony died in 1983, so perhaps the Bangkok climate had taken its toll.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries...dy-Rumbold.html

Edited October 24, 2009 by citizen33

[Publicus]

Christ a Friday Publicus, blaming the old Taksinator for Thai ethnocentrism went out of fashion back in 06 after the coup, when even the most senile of alcoholic expats were forced to stand up and notice PAD and the Dems did the exact same thing

At best you can try to claim that Taxin started it - good luck as it has always been in Thailand. Say how is that temple dispute going with Cambodia anyway ... ?

Don't know what you're on about.

As I noted, PAD and the Reds et al not only have carried forward Thai contempt of farang, they've elevated it to new heights and in their newfound orneryness have in fact turned on themselves. The masses of Thai people turning on themselves is the new development I reference, that of the Thais being self irritating, irritable and impossible, with 1997 being the point of departure.

Previously Thais were polite and kind to your face while contemptously ridiculing of farang and laughing behind our backs. Now Thais are not only openly contemptous of farang, but Thai nastyness has degenerated to the point of their being at one another's throats with the worst yet to come.

[caf]

Christ a Friday Publicus, blaming the old Taksinator for Thai ethnocentrism went out of fashion back in 06 after the coup, when even the most senile of alcoholic expats were forced to stand up and notice PAD and the Dems did the exact same thing

At best you can try to claim that Taxin started it - good luck as it has always been in Thailand. Say how is that temple dispute going with Cambodia anyway ... ?

Don't know what you're on about.

As I noted, PAD and the Reds et al not only have carried forward Thai contempt of farang, they've elevated it to new heights and in their newfound orneryness have in fact turned on themselves. The masses of Thai people turning on themselves is the new development I reference, that of the Thais being self irritating, irritable and impossible, with 1997 being the point of departure.

Previously Thais were polite and kind to your face while contemptously ridiculing of farang and laughing behind our backs. Now Thais are not only openly contemptous of farang, but Thai nastyness has degenerated to the point of their being at one another's throats with the worst yet to come.

Are you on some sort of commission for bringing Thaksin into every thread? The ambassadors comments were over 40 years ago.

There is a serious postal strike in the Uk at the moment which is obviously affectring deliveries to Thailand. In what way can we blame Thaksin for that. Do give it your best shot.