New Work Permit Regulations Coming

[garyk]

Well i put in my 30 years and at 55 I retired. This is one of several places i can afford to live. but surly not the only place i can live. There are many more attractive options for me than Thailand. But like many i got involved and here I am. But I tell you this. I still own a home and vehicles at home and i do not care if they change the laws or not. I can take my woman to many places this great earth and countrys have to offer. It still is behond me why anyone would come here and invest his hard earned money in a society that is set you up to fail.

I have a motorcycle and a truck. That is it. I am thinking of selling the truck because i do not need it and would make my flight easier.

DON'T SPEND ANYMORE THAN YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOOSE HERE. BECAUSE YOU WILL LOOSE IT.

[thaiphoon]

One post responding to a post containing incorrect visa information (already pointed out as being incorrect by Mods) has been deleted.

A reminder please to stay on topic; this thread is not about visas.

[manarak]

I've read a dozen of posts, mostly a load of rubbish.

Small opinions by small minds, save a few wise posts.

The most ridiculous is the debate on "retirement age".

Yes, there are public and private retirement plans, etc. but the only person who decides when you retire is YOU. People can retire at 30 if they have made enough cash.

[rainman]

The new rules will most likely be that you need to be a Thai national in order to qualify for a work permit.

[haverkamp]

And so they really started today to check if everything is OK.

Four people from the Ministry of Education came to our school today to check all the foreigners if they had a legal teachers license, a valid working visa, a work permit and at least a BA degree in any field.

They gave us time till tomorrow 2PM to hand in the documents, since no one carried it with him.

there was also a kind of interview about how long we are living in Thailand, when and where we have done our educational degree, where you live, how long you've been teaching etc.

The lady told the staff that our school was the first one and that they will go to every school in BKK, she told also about people who are working for an agency that most of the agencies not work according to the law and that they will go to check them as well.

[maprao]

Its about time the Thais were able to decide for themselves. I disagree to most of this and I have been married to a thai for 6 years.

Visas have been mis-used for many years. Retirement visas should be limited to the age of the expats pension age, eg UK at 65. You cannot be retired at 59, just escaping into another country for whatever reasons because you have nothing to do in your own country.

The other visas like teaching should be contracted for term times or for the academic year. It is strange that none of these teaching expat experts return to there country and sit in Thailand forever. Surely they go home to see they family or is it they dare not go home and there family have to come to Thailand to see them.

Also in the UK now we have gone to a points system for work permits. I dont see lots of Thais getting in to the UK through method. Why cannot Thais do the same and let people in on a similar system.

Where did that come from? People with good Pensions and smart saving do not have to work until 65 before they retire.

Even teachers in the UK CAN TAKE Early Retirement in their 50,s (eg for health reasons).

Many people save and cater to retire when they are 55. Only people who rely entirely on the UK state pension need to work until they are 65. (soon to be 68).

[gohmer]

It seems most of the above posts are from UK citizens. So here's some food for thought. Point 1, as a comparison, America is the richest country in the world, most all modern things in the last 100 yrs have been invented in America, in its history since independence America has been in approximately 10 wars (most that we didn't ask for) versus about 75 for England (most England asked for), America is the 3rd most populous country in the world. All of these things have been primarily the result of 2 things. First, having a political, social, and economic system that offers great opportunity and draws the smartest, hardest working people from all over the world to immigrate. And, second, this massive influx of immigrants are the ones creating companies like Google and Cisco Systems. So, how that relates to this thread about immigrants into a country, is that it is obviously not a bad thing unless you are a racist, unimaginative, twit like the guy that complained about people from Pakistan immigrating to the UK - maybe they are a burden on your system because you can't offer any upside opportunities for them or because of your racist attitudes.

Point 2, Thailand on the other hand, does not offer the same kinds of opportunities for immigrants, and therefore, immigrants can be a burden for the country, especially since Thailand seems to get a dispropotionate percentage of the bottom of the barrel rather than the cream of the crop as America does. And, it is precisely due to the limitations of Thailand, its culture, and economics that prevents these opportunities, so why would the brightest people in the UK want to come to Thailand and work - and please don't say the cost of living because I can buy a house in Arizona, Nevada, Florida, North Caroline for the same price as a house in Hua Hin or Chiang Mai. The only thing cheaper in Thailand is healthcare, food, and women, and that's it. All else costs the same. But compared to the income differences, it is just a BS myth that you are money ahead. Only if you are on a lower blue collar pension does it make any sense, and if that's who you are, you aren't important to the economics here as you can't do much more than any Thai person.

Conclusion: I don't blame Thailand for "cracking" down.

[moe666]

Good old Thaivisa worth its weight in gold as an entertainment venue. Not a single line of print what the new regulations will entail but the posters on this entertainment venue have the world ( Thailand that is) falling apart, half are moving to Cambodia, and one doesn't want anyone to retire until they are 65, must be a republican.

Come on boys lets take a breath, we know this is another nail in old Thailands coffin.

hehehehehehehe

[Arkady]

Does any one know what these new rules are? Presumably the person who penned the chamber article has seen or heard details of the draft.

From what I recall new work permit regulations were introduced in the new Working of Aliens Law that was gazetted in 2008. What was missing from that law was the revised list of prohibited occupations that was left to be added later as an appendix. The revised list is obviously now on the way but what new work permit regulations could be coming when they have only just been revised? The commentary at the time was not to expect any liberalization in the list and that it was more likely to be expanded than reduced.

[BigWheelMan]

There are many Farangs that come to Thailand, work illegally, back room boys business and property owners.

The Thai authorities are not stupid and are fully aware to what's going on.

So far they haven't been enforcing the law, but sooner or later the activities of these people will impact those legitimate ex-pats working and living here, which now seems to be the case.

Edited January 6, 2010 by BigWheelMan

[JGV]

JV Can you please point out where farangs (Western developed countries) are working as farmers and undercutting the basic daily wage for farmwork.

So I don't thing we are going to get an influx of farang applying for farm labouring work.

Farangs are generally involved in work that Thais can't do as well - teaching English, industrial management etc So this crackdown is targeted at this . Labour intensive work where Burmese, lao and Cambodian come into Thailand to work will be unaffected because they are illegal and will never apply for work permits because they don't have passports.

I think English teaching is a particular issue because a thriving middle class having good English language skills poses a threat to the ruling elite as their control of power becomes under threat.

This is just a guess, but you'll have to be patient and carefully read my suggestions below as to why this 'control' over Falangs being employed, running businesses and owning property in Thailand, is such an important issue to the Government.

In the countries falangs come from, there is a lot of ill-feeling about migrant workers because they are willing to do jobs for less than nationals do. (mainly willing to do this work because what 'we' pay is more than they would get in their own country.)

In Thailand, I would not mind betting that there is similar (concealed) dissent, but because falangs get paid considerably more than a Thai would, doing the same job. (The reason for this difference, may be because falangs aren't willing to apply for jobs in Thailand unless they are paid pretty much the same money as they would be paid in their own country.)

So you potentially end up with a situation where Thais start kicking up a stink about this inequality in pay. Regarding the ownership of land and businesses, you could end up with a similar situation whereby Thais can no longer afford to buy land or set up businesses (because falangs have more money & capital to play around with than Thais)

The consequences on the Thai economy, could be quite serious, causing rampant pay increases and yet making the farm workers and owners (who are already making hardly any money) even poorer by comparison. This leads to farmers leaving the land for jobs in the cities, and then you haven't enough food being produced, unless some form of (very expensive) farming subsidies are paid to these people so that they also have a commersuately increased standard of living too.

As you can well imagine, you then get a viscious circle of spiralling inflation, which is not what the government wants. Thai farmers have for some decades been complaining that they get a pretty raw deal income-wise, and hearing that falangs, are getting paid even more than a Thai national effectively doing the same job, just inflames this dissent further.

[Mario2008]

Does any one know what these new rules are? Presumably the person who penned the chamber article has seen or heard details of the draft.

From what I recall new work permit regulations were introduced in the new Working of Aliens Law that was gazetted in 2008. What was missing from that law was the revised list of prohibited occupations that was left to be added later as an appendix. The revised list is obviously now on the way but what new work permit regulations could be coming when they have only just been revised? The commentary at the time was not to expect any liberalization in the list and that it was more likely to be expanded than reduced.

It seems a large part of the new regulations will affect the foreign business act and have negative effects for investors (stricter controls), while at the same time some sectors will be opened to investors.

Camerata quoted this from the magazine of the British Chamber of Commerce:

"Unfortunately, the Labour Department has revised Work Permit regulations and a new list of the types of work foreigners are allowed to conduct will be issued by February 2010 at the latest. According to the current draft of the Ministerial Regulation, the new rules and practice will impact on current work permits (when they are extended) and also new work permits. [...] Despite the position of all foreign Chambers that liberalisation and streamlining of visa and work permit regulations would be advantageous for attracting and retaining much needed foreign investment, certain ministries appear to have taken the opposite view."

So it seems that work permit rules will also change. They only saw a draft, so the new rules are not set and still being discussed at the ministry. We can only wait till they are published.

I saw a post a few days ago, from someone else telling that work permit rules would change. Unfortunately I can't find it right now.

The information so far suggests that (for some) the rules to get a work permit will become harder. To be sure it might be wise to renew a work permit on the earliest opportunity.

[tomahawk]

Republicans do not want everyone to have to wait until 65 to retire. Neither do democrats. Moo66 is misinformed in this regard.

[Arkady]

"Unfortunately, the Labour Department has revised Work Permit regulations and a new list of the types of work foreigners are allowed to conduct will be issued by February 2010 at the latest. According to the current draft of the Ministerial Regulation, the new rules and practice will impact on current work permits (when they are extended) and also new work permits. [...] Despite the position of all foreign Chambers that liberalisation and streamlining of visa and work permit regulations would be advantageous for attracting and retaining much needed foreign investment, certain ministries appear to have taken the opposite view."

I am still confused about this.

"The Labour Department has revised work permit regulations..." Yes, work permit regulations have been revised but by act of Parliament in the form of the 2008 Working of Aliens Act rather than by ministerial regulation. The Act introdued some quite significant changes, such as severing the automatic connection between non-imm visas and WPs and allowing two year WPs (even tho in practice these are only available for Plcs and other large companies). Is the author saying that new ministerial regulations are coming? If so, these would have to be consistent with the 2008 Act. Changes to the Act can only be made by Parliament. Perhaps he is saying that the ministry is in fact drafting amendments to the Act, rather than regulations. It is not clear. BTW the author seems to be unaware that the Labour Dept was upgraded to a ministry from a dept of the Interior Ministry over 10 years ago.

"...and a new list of the types of work foreigners are allowed to conduct...". Yes, this is true but we have been aware of it since 2008 because the 2008 Working of Aliens Act was promulgated leaving the list of prohibited occupations to be updated in 2010. Meanwhile the list of prohibited occupations in the old Act is still in force. I can't understand why some posters think the new list of prohibited occupations is connected to the Commerce Ministry's second attempt to push legislation that will curb foreign voting rights that is now ongoing, combined with its token proposal to liberalize sectors that are largely not under its control and have effectively been liberalized already. There may be a common xenophobic undercurrent but these are two different ministries with different agendas. There was some hope at one point that the new list would drop professions such as accounting, law and architecture but indications in 2008 suggested that this would not happen. On the other hand, I think it would be difficult for them to add to the list. At any rate the prohibition doesn't seem to stop hundreds of foreign lawyers and accountants from practicing here. They all pretend to be consultants or business managers which doesn't seem to present any qualms for their sense of ethics. The accountants are happy that they can get their Thai staff to sign accounts for them and not take any responsibility. Most of the foreign professionals would be incapable of passing professional exams in Thai anyway. So the point is rather academic.

[flyfrog]

Its about time the Thais were able to decide for themselves. I disagree to most of this and I have been married to a thai for 6 years.

Visas have been mis-used for many years. Retirement visas should be limited to the age of the expats pension age, eg UK at 65. You cannot be retired at 59, just escaping into another country for whatever reasons because you have nothing to do in your own country.

The other visas like teaching should be contracted for term times or for the academic year. It is strange that none of these teaching expat experts return to there country and sit in Thailand forever. Surely they go home to see they family or is it they dare not go home and there family have to come to Thailand to see them.

Also in the UK now we have gone to a points system for work permits. I dont see lots of Thais getting in to the UK through method. Why cannot Thais do the same and let people in on a similar system.

I hope for people like me in the restaurant business we can keep our work permit?

[Mario2008]

Sorry Arkady. The quote from the British Chamber of Commerce and the article in the Nation: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Tighter-Cont...ow-t325518.html

Are the only sources we currently have. The news article suggests there will be amendments to the Foreign Business Act.

[Arkady]

I would thnk the Labour Ministry will soon introduce new regulations for WP fees. The 2008 Act allows them to charge 20,000 baht for a WP and 1,000 baht for an application form. The current fees have not been increased for quiite a long time and an increase is on the cards. I would expect them to raise the fee for a one year WP to 10,000 baht. I think it was last increased from 1,000 to 3,000 in the mid 90s, so this should not come as a surprise.

The new list of prohibited occupations has to be published by 23 February, as the ministry was given two years for this job in the 2008 Act published on 23 February 2008. There is no time line for amendments to the FBA. The Commerce Ministry has the power to amend the three annexes of restricted business sectors through ministerial regulations but changes to foreign shareholders' voting rights and ncreased investigative powers for the Business Development Department would, I believe, require amendments to the Act approved by Parliament. PM Abhisit has taken the line that he would not put any amendments to the FBA before Parliament but that the annexes might be amended. The Dems are not in charge of the Commerce Ministry but I would think that they would oppose any changes to the Act deemed to negative for foreign investment. Thaksin's lot claimed they were opposed to the FBA amendments under the Sarayud government. You never know what can happen but I don't see the Commerce Ministry getting much support for its planned amendments apart from the deletion of sectors in Annex 3 which it can do by itself but is holding back as a carrot. Nevertheless the senior offiicials in the Business Development Department are still trying to get their own back following their huge loss of face in 2007 - time for retirement.

It goes without saying that Thailand really needs to throw out the creaking FBA and pass a competitive law that restricts foregn ownership only in sensitive strategic sectors like Cambodia has done. Red tape surrounding WPs and visas should be cut so that a 3 year combined visa and WP can be issued like other countries. PRs should obviously have the right to work without a work permit like green card holders and PRs in most other countries. Long leases on land of 50+ years should also be allowed. If pigs could fly.

[Mario2008]

Thanks for your analysis, which puts it into perspective.

However on the point of the work permit fees I disagree. The labour department just increased the fees for applying for a work permit last moth. It doesn't seem logical to now again increase those fees, or to increase the fees for a work permit itself. I would have expected hem to have done so at the same time they raised the fees for applying. Also the British Chamber of Commerce doesn't mention raising the price of work permits.

[stretch163]

Its about time the Thais were able to decide for themselves. I disagree to most of this and I have been married to a thai for 6 years.

Visas have been mis-used for many years. Retirement visas should be limited to the age of the expats pension age, eg UK at 65. You cannot be retired at 59, just escaping into another country for whatever reasons because you have nothing to do in your own country.

Ok so i am a UK Expat and married to a thai and i recevie my pension in 8 months november of this year at the ripe age of 40, so therefore i can be retired at an age less than 65. So your facts are somewhat wrong if indeed they are facts obviously not.

and i think the remark just escaping to another country because u have nothing to do in your own country is total <deleted> and does not apply to every person.

So at the age of 40 i will be drawing a pension and moving to thailand to b with my wife just a shame that i cant actually get a retirement visa which is probably down to the short sightedness of people thinking that legally retiring before the age of 65 is not possible when it actually is.

[masterbiker49]

My wife,thai national reads the forum quite often & disagrees with many of these statements made here.1.Thais do not get paid what Falang get because of lack of experience in English teaching qualifications.2.In the real world falang work hard & long hours to earn money,my wife was very surprised what is required in a farang job,she is a bank officer in Australia,but was a manager in thailand & says most thais have no Idea what is required in Falang Land.

[Dukeleto]

Its about time the Thais were able to decide for themselves. I disagree to most of this and I have been married to a thai for 6 years.

Visas have been mis-used for many years. Retirement visas should be limited to the age of the expats pension age, eg UK at 65. You cannot be retired at 59, just escaping into another country for whatever reasons because you have nothing to do in your own country.

The other visas like teaching should be contracted for term times or for the academic year. It is strange that none of these teaching expat experts return to there country and sit in Thailand forever. Surely they go home to see they family or is it they dare not go home and there family have to come to Thailand to see them.

Also in the UK now we have gone to a points system for work permits. I dont see lots of Thais getting in to the UK through method. Why cannot Thais do the same and let people in on a similar system.

Really? I was retired at 38. Its very possible to be retired at an age lower than 59. I know plenty of people in this category.

[lockman]

Its about time the Thais were able to decide for themselves. I disagree to most of this and I have been married to a thai for 6 years.

Visas have been mis-used for many years. Retirement visas should be limited to the age of the expats pension age, eg UK at 65. You cannot be retired at 59, just escaping into another country for whatever reasons because you have nothing to do in your own country.

Rather untrue (the age bit) as I retired 2 years ago and am now 59, and have been living here for over 2 years. Just requires advance planning.

[dantilley]

a new list of the types of work foreigners are allowed to conduct will be issued by February 2010 at the latest

OK, so we're now into Feb, does anyone know if this list has been published yet?

[Mario2008]

Didn't hear anything.

[lopburi3]

Post deleted - this discussion is about Thailand not the UK.