Only if you support the IRA.

Yeah, silly question PB, one of the main requirements of being a patriot is blind obedience to a fascist warmongering regime.

Ah, succinct and appropriate! Only too true in 90% of the cases. Don't think for yourself.

I remember my father teaching me about family loyalty, he said; I can say bad things about your mother but I will take exception with anyone who is not in our family who talks about her. He also taught me to never go against the family; family supports family even if we dont think they are right. I guess that may be why in many worlds a persons country is called their mother land. i dont know just an opinion, but i do know that i was never a flag waver, i left my country because i felt i was losing freedoms, revolted in paying tax and quick to say that the US was one of the biggest terrorist in the world but when i saw the planes being flown into the trade centers, i was filled with rage, i was fighting mad, and i wanted revenge. I went out of my way to tell all those who cheered, if you want the fight you dont have to go any further than me. I am not saying it is rational, but i am saying it is my core belief to protect that which has protected me.

I remember my father teaching me about family loyalty, he said; I can say bad things about your mother but I will take exception with anyone who is not in our family who talks about her. He also taught me to never go against the family; family supports family even if we dont think they are right. I guess that may be why in many worlds a persons country is called their mother land. i dont know just an opinion, but i do know that i was never a flag waver, i left my country because i felt i was losing freedoms, revolted in paying tax and quick to say that the US was one of the biggest terrorist in the world but when i saw the planes being flown into the trade centers, i was filled with rage, i was fighting mad, and i wanted revenge. I went out of my way to tell all those who cheered, if you want the fight you dont have to go any further than me. I am not saying it is rational, but i am saying it is my core belief to protect that which has protected me.

I can see where you are coming from and it raises a couple of issues with me.

I think I asked this question in this very thread; If a family member was a repeat child molester....how far does your support go? When do you say family ties are weaker than moral principle and the bastard should go to gaol (jail)?

The other issue (not issue with your post, but issue that has arisen), when you saw the "...those who cheered..." at 9/11, and became understandably outraged and wanting revenge...did you change your attitude once you realised that CNN was broadcasting years-old footage of Palestinians cheering and dancing and making it out that this was actual footage of cheering at the 9/11 tragedy?

The problem with wars and family feuds is it's hard to remember who threw the first stone. When you step on the toes of 100 people, for whatever the reason, there will be a few who never forget and WILL plan for revenge. Most people won't fight if the intruder is more powerful, and they will just accept their fate. But, the few who don't accept their fate will become a dangerous adversary. They understand they can't win a battle in a stand up fight, but they can use terrorist methods to get their point across.

The powerful business lobbyists use their influence on government officials to stick their noses in other countries business. By doing so they are going to piss off some of the locals in whatever country is getting infiltrated. Good examples of this are the oil rich countries. Nobody bothers going into some place such as Somalia or other poorer nations. There is nothing to exploit. But, if oil was suddenly found in Somalia you can be sure that the exploiters would be there in droves. That is the main reason for the Somalian pirates off their coast. Foreign nations used the Somalian coast as a toxic waste dump, and other countries poached what fisheries the Somalians had to extinction. Consequently, the Somalians became pirates in retaliation.

I remember my father teaching me about family loyalty, he said; I can say bad things about your mother but I will take exception with anyone who is not in our family who talks about her. He also taught me to never go against the family; family supports family even if we dont think they are right. I guess that may be why in many worlds a persons country is called their mother land. i dont know just an opinion, but i do know that i was never a flag waver, i left my country because i felt i was losing freedoms, revolted in paying tax and quick to say that the US was one of the biggest terrorist in the world but when i saw the planes being flown into the trade centers, i was filled with rage, i was fighting mad, and i wanted revenge. I went out of my way to tell all those who cheered, if you want the fight you dont have to go any further than me. I am not saying it is rational, but i am saying it is my core belief to protect that which has protected me.

I can see where you are coming from and it raises a couple of issues with me.

I think I asked this question in this very thread; If a family member was a repeat child molester....how far does your support go? When do you say family ties are weaker than moral principle and the bastard should go to gaol (jail)?

The other issue (not issue with your post, but issue that has arisen), when you saw the "...those who cheered..." at 9/11, and became understandably outraged and wanting revenge...did you change your attitude once you realised that CNN was broadcasting years-old footage of Palestinians cheering and dancing and making it out that this was actual footage of cheering at the 9/11 tragedy?

I suppose they could have gone to my great uncle's hotel on the Mediteranean coast of Italy. He said he had a bar full of Germans cheering that day. He vented about 60 years of pent up rage that day. I guess you never know how people will react to something like that. I was shocked to say the least. It hasn't affected how I perceive German people, of which I'm close to several, but I've never broached the subject either.

did you change your attitude once you realised that CNN was broadcasting years-old footage of Palestinians cheering and dancing and making it out that this was actual footage of cheering at the 9/11 tragedy?

My sister walked into a little Palestinian grocery in America on 9/11 and they were all laughing and cheering in front of the TV. Maybe CNN used old footage to save money, but there were plenty of Palestinians celebrating that day.

did you change your attitude once you realised that CNN was broadcasting years-old footage of Palestinians cheering and dancing and making it out that this was actual footage of cheering at the 9/11 tragedy?

My sister walked into a little Palestinian grocery in America on 9/11 and they were all laughing and cheering in front of the TV. Maybe CNN used old footage to save money, but there were plenty of Palestinians celebrating that day.

Don't let it bother you. After all, the joke is on them - they are Palestinians and their lives suck.

You are right. Everything that they try to do to destroy Israel backfires on them and makes their lives worse and worse, but they never accept responsibility for their own actions.

It is Israel's fault that they had to build a wall to protect civilians from suicide bombs and it is Israel's fault that they had to invade Gaza to stop Hamas from firing rockets into family neighborhoods.

Maybe they were wronged long ago when the Jews were dumped on their doorstep, but since then, all in all, the Palestinians have reaped what they have sewn.

I think you can rip what you have sewn.

No doubt there would have been joyous Palestinians around, but what CNN did, broadcasting to the world, was to deliberately provoke and enrage, using false images.

I brought CNN's behaviour into this in response to maccaroniman's post. I can see his point and empathise with him.....but how many others were duped by that footage? Tens of thousand, hundreds of thousands, millions even.

The invasion of Afghanistan needed an outraged public before Bush could begin.

To bring this back to topic.....

That footage created blind patriots.

My sister walked into a little Palestinian grocery in America on 9/11 and they were all laughing and cheering in front of the TV. Maybe CNN used old footage to save money, but there were plenty of Palestinians celebrating that day.

Don't let it bother you. After all, the joke is on them - they are Palestinians and their lives suck.

That seems a odd comment after he was describing Palestinian immigrants in America Or perhaps you meant it as such?

Overall Ian said it best IMHO it is all blow back in one way or another from all concerned.

Come all ye young rebels, and list while I sing,

For the love of one's country is a terrible thing.

It banishes fear with the speed of a flame,

And it makes us all part of the patriot game.

Be careful with words, they are not always what they seem, I chose this song in particular because it is the most neutral I have found, some of the lyrics, particularly the extra verse are not in the song I posted.

However your Parthian shot is an ongoing mantra of mine, one mans terrorist is another mans patriot, I think most on here can at least understand the concept, excepting one of course.

There were plenty of soldiers in both places.

So you are arguing that they were tactical strikes to circumvent the enemy soldiers, or in my view, plain old terror against the civilian populations?

Of course, there was also an element of payback for The Allied cities that had been purposely destroyed by the Axis.

"Liberals" sure are good at making excuses for and justifying terrorism.

If I am a Liberal because, in your own words, 'civilian payback' is justifiable, then so be it.

As this has moved on considerably since my input that was not understood, I will add this for its poignancy lone.

I understood it. IMO a patriot becomes a freedom fighter or a terrorist when he chooses violence as a means of expression/coercion.

Lan, unfortunately silent protest gets you nowhere when a foreign army is on your door step, or they are dropping SMART bombs on civilians, not even for payback, but because they are incompetent.

It says it all doesn't it? One man's patriot is another man's terrorist.

"Liberals" sure are good at making excuses for and justifying terrorism.

Are you suggesting the IRA patriots are/were not terrorists?

It depends on your point of view of course.

I don't know where you are from U.G, but let me presume Texas. Were the defenders of the Alamo/Houstons regulars, Terrorists or Patriots, they used hit and run against the Mexicans, and then holed up in the Alamo for a rallying call.

I think you can rip what you have sewn.

No doubt there would have been joyous Palestinians around, but what CNN did, broadcasting to the world, was to deliberately provoke and enrage, using false images.

I brought CNN's behaviour into this in response to maccaroniman's post. I can see his point and empathise with him.....but how many others were duped by that footage? Tens of thousand, hundreds of thousands, millions even.

The invasion of Afghanistan needed an outraged public before Bush could begin.

To bring this back to topic.....

That footage created blind patriots.

This is the first I've heard that the CNN footage was old.

The footage I saw of Palestinians celebrating was of a handful dancing around after apparetnly being paid to do so. You could see people not far off in the background walking by giving them a curious glance so it wasn't some big celebration.

My sister walked into a little Palestinian grocery in America on 9/11 and they were all laughing and cheering in front of the TV. Maybe CNN used old footage to save money, but there were plenty of Palestinians celebrating that day.

Don't let it bother you. After all, the joke is on them - they are Palestinians and their lives suck.

That seems a odd comment after he was describing Palestinian immigrants in America Or perhaps you meant it as such?

At least you didn't find it odd that Palestinian immigrants in America were laughing and cheering on 9/11.

It says it all doesn't it? One man's patriot is another man's terrorist.

"Liberals" sure are good at making excuses for and justifying terrorism.

Are you suggesting the IRA patriots are/were not terrorists?

It depends on your point of view of course.

I don't know where you are from U.G, but let me presume Texas. Were the defenders of the Alamo/Houstons regulars, Terrorists or Patriots, they used hit and run against the Mexicans, and then holed up in the Alamo for a rallying call.

Sorry, but I'm not from Texas and the defenders of the Alamo were not blowing up buildings full of inocent civilians with no military value to make political points.

one mans terrorist is another mans patriot, I think most on here can at least understand the concept, excepting one of course.

Anyone can justify anything. There are lots of people who can list all kinds of reasons why the Jews deserved to be wiped out in WW2. I think we all get that.

one mans terrorist is another mans patriot, I think most on here can at least understand the concept, excepting one of course.

Anyone can justify anything. There are lots of people who can list all kinds of reasons why the Jews deserved to be wiped out in WW2. I think we all get that.

To be pedantic, no......but to take it how you meant it...Yes. Exactly! Take a look in the mirror.

And consider that maybe you are "reaping what you have sewn" (to quote you)......ripping what you have sewn.....or reaping what you have sown....however you want to put it.

At least you didn't find it odd that Palestinian immigrants in America were laughing and cheering on 9/11.

Well 1st off we would have to give credibility to who told us this fact?

So..... zero credibility there.....

That aside I guess it still goes back to blow back & there will never be a right or wrong side ...because both sides will be blinded & argue till the end that the other started it.

At least you didn't find it odd that Palestinian immigrants in America were laughing and cheering on 9/11.

Well 1st off we would have to give credibility to who told us this fact?

So..... zero credibility there.....

And someone else told me here that the CNN footage was from years prior to the attack. Not much credibility there either but you have no problem with it.

At least you didn't find it odd that Palestinian immigrants in America were laughing and cheering on 9/11.

Well 1st off we would have to give credibility to who told us this fact?

So..... zero credibility there.....

And someone else told me here that the CNN footage was from years prior to the attack. Not much credibility there either but you have no problem with it.

Actually I never took part in that discussion.............

Although I am guessing if you google.....

CNN shows old footage of Palestinians cheering on 9-11

You may get some hits.....

Yet if you google UG's sister saw something in a store on 9-11 you would probably get.....ummmm 0 hits....yeah that would be my guess

You were right, Harcourt was incorrect once again. His story is listed as an urban myth.

Nothing to dispute my sisters report however!

You were right, Harcourt was incorrect once again. His story is listed as an urban myth.

Nothing to dispute my sisters report however!

:D I guess if the lack of fact is the same as undisputed truth well then there ya go...congrats....your in the same league as many Military Industrial Complex types

I"m sure that you know what you are going on about here, but the rest of us are not in the loop.

I"m sure that you know what you are going on about here, but the rest of us are not in the loop.

Well I could not break it down any further for you sorry.....Perhaps we could shift gears & talk about who has the best breakfast menu?

That sounds a lot more fun than teaching you how to write cohesive sentences!

You were right, Harcourt was incorrect once again. His story is listed as an urban myth.

Nothing to dispute my sisters report however!

Don't believe everything you read on the web.

Yes, you found a site, perhaps more than one, that cite it as urban myth....with no actual proof.

There are many others that support the allegation that it is true.

Perhaps the most significant fact is that when I woke up on the morning of September 12 (NZ time) and that footage was being played, amongst the real time footage of the event, prior to the collapse, it was night in Palestine at that time yet the footage showed full daytime.

I recall watching a CNN apology of sorts after the scandal broke.

Significant to this discussion is that it is plain that there are people around that will promulgate anything

to serve their agenda.

Read and believe anything you want.....never dare to argue "facts", unless those "facts" go against your preferred view....

But when faced with the inarguable, bury your head in the sand.

That sounds a lot more fun than teaching you how to write cohesive sentences!

I will say you are very consistent ....Always jumping into a spelling or grammar fox hole when confronted.

Keep your head down & I will find a good menu for you.

Did you ever try that beef noodle place I told you about near Sompet Market, Moonmueng Road ?