I was addressing caf, but I am not right wing - I stay near the middle of the road. I don't want anything to do with right-wing wack jobs or left-wing lunatics. They are both full of shit.

Leaving aside patriotism this thread is not showing the best side of americans at all

caf

You seem to get a little confused between your own opinions and what the rest of the world thinks.

From where I am sitting, it is the terrorist appeasers who constantly lie in their posts and even when caught will not admit it. Several have volunteered to stay out of Out in the Box for several weeks if anyone could prove their posts incorrect, but when presented with evidence, they refused to honor their word - not a big surprise really!

I don't think I am the one getting confused. The topic is about patriotism not terrorist appeasement or people refusing to honour their word.

I would also not agree that all of "the rest of the world" has one opinion and it is only I who has a different opinion.

You rather give me my argument about how Americans view non-americans. As a generalisation - and I know some good decent and sensible americans - most seem not to accept any one else's view. Only their own. And I base that on the disruptive posts in many threads.

caf

I don't see too many posters here who are interested in any opinions, but their own. However, insisting that this generalization mostly applies to Americans and your other negative remarks, pretty much shows where you are coming from.

I don't see too many posters here who are interested in any opinions, but their own. However, insisting that this generalization mostly applies to Americans and your other negative remarks, pretty much shows where you are coming from.

Hoist by your own petard.

"Where i am coming from" is actually from reading your posts. Against Laopo, Harcourt, Ian.........As i said it is a genearlisation. I never said all yanks are like you. You shoot messengers or think you do.

A patriot is someone who supports his country. The degree to which that overides other moral obligations is the real debating point.

Some patriots support their country right or wrong, some only to certain limits. The Oxford debate on WW2, the current Iraq debate are examples.

caf

Shove that attitude, bud. I googled it and looked at the first three pages and found nothing like what you mentioned. You don't like it? Then provide a link. Sheesh. I was practically on your side by bringing up the militias then you start acting like an ass.

btw - Waco wasn't a militia. It was a cult.

time for a nap? Your getting cranky.

Thanks for the offer but I need you on my side like I need a hole in my head.

I have no side where you belong.

Funny if I google anything like why did the ATF raid waco I see things like a Time article on the first page.....Not that it is the big article or reason for you.

The Time article says NOTHING about people cheering when the feds got shot. But it does say a lot about you.

Aren't you the same guy who posts about sheeple? Look in the mirror. You're no free thinker that's for sure. You are highly partisan and will never, never! agree with someone you look at as from "the other side". Up to you.

"Where i am coming from" is actually from reading your posts. Against Laopo, Harcourt, Ian.........As i said it is a genearlisation. I never said all yanks are like you.

caf

"Most Americans" does not refer to me. Do you even bother reading your own posts before you post this nonsense?

As a generalisation - and I know some good decent and sensible americans - most seem not to accept any one else's view. Only their own. And I base that on the disruptive posts in many threads.

caf

Aren't you the same guy who posts about sheeple? Look in the mirror. You're no free thinker that's for sure. You are highly partisan and will never, never! agree with someone you look at as from "the other side". Up to you.

Another perfectly honest, hit the nail on the head post. Thanks!

A patriot is someone who supports his country. The degree to which that overides other moral obligations is the real debating point.

Some patriots support their country right or wrong, some only to certain limits. The Oxford debate on WW2, the current Iraq debate are examples.

caf

It took 244 posts but, sounds good to me.

Why do your readers have to support claims you make?

What would be the point? Your mind has long been made up.

Actually chuck it is pretty obvious you have opinions as I do & everyone else here.

Most of the dancing we do supports only our own current stance & beliefs based on either past history as we understand it or in what we saw at the time of the incidents discussed.......or for some blind faith in what others said & I do not count myself in that group.

It is best to decide/interpret for yourself how these events played out & how they will be remembered. I count these things that happened in the US & it definitely has an impact on what I believe goes on elsewhere. Watching how little events in (comparison only) perpetrated at home can be spun & controlled in the govt/media & then for the most part be swept under the rug does not bode well for what goes on overseas.

OK, I actually googled it and couldn't find anything. Although I wouldn't be surprised if some serious anti-gov't militias someplace were cheering.

Well you must have missed the article by Time magazine & others then.

But then again I sat & watched the whole thing played out live on TV at the time.

As for Militias?? Do you mean like the time they ( the 3 letter groups like ATF & FBI ) shot 13 year old Sammy Weaver in the back as he ran? The militia held up in that cabin on Ruby Ridge? Where Sammy's mom Vicki was shot by FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi? OF course the 3 letter groups admit no wrong but, did pay each of the daughters 1 million & I think the father 100k

Not much for a son/brother & mother/wife eh?

Is that the militias you had in mind? Or did you mean Waco specifically? Where are these militias the govt or you like to talk about?

The folks in Texas were not cheering due to agreement with what ever beliefs Koresh had. They were cheering at the fact that the govt got their butts kicked initially in an illegal action.

Let me get this straight.

You are claiming a group of Texans were seen celebrating the Waco incident because the "govt got their butts kicked initially in an illegal action"?

You claim you actually witnessed this on television and read about it somewhere else yet you either do not have or are refusing to provide a link that supports your claim.

I have searched the web some in order to help you support your claim. My last search was for, "Texans celebrating ATF deaths in Waco". This had 15,500 hits. I did not look at the entire 15,500 hits but I did scan through the first five pages of links. None of them were indicating knowledge of a group of Texans celebrating the deaths of ATF agents in Waco.

I can only surmise you have nothing to backup your claim. You claim you saw it on television, which then puts us in the position of either believing you or doubting your honesty. You are doing yourself no favors by putting all of us in this position.

At least in only took 2 seconds to google up a bunch of Palestinians celebrating 9/11 - just like my sister said.

In the interests of correctly recorded history I found one American that cheered. Never took me long either.

To: Constitutionalist1958

I remember cheering as those fat ATF bastards, huffing and puffing, ran down the road in retreat.

8 posted on Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:13:18 PM by SJSAMPLE

[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Not sure if this link will take here, TV doesn't like links to other forums. It's FreeRepublic.com any way, chock full of good stuff like this.

Compulsive reading every time I feel my views are slipping a little to the right.

Link

Not as a moderator but as a Chiang Mai neighbor, may I kindly suggest that UG and caf ignore each other? Thank you.

A patriot is someone who supports his country. The degree to which that overides other moral obligations is the real debating point.

Some patriots support their country right or wrong, some only to certain limits. The Oxford debate on WW2, the current Iraq debate are examples.

caf

It took 244 posts but, sounds good to me.

Exactly, this is what the thread should be about. People thinking for themselves and not relying on what their sisters' tell them. The transcripts of the Oxford debate is an interesting read. It actually gave both sides and emphasised the moral dilemma. Churchill took a very biased view and could only see one side - his.

There is a parallel here with a certain bookseller but it escapes me for the moment.

caf

In the interests of correctly recorded history I found one American that cheered. Never took me long either.

To: Constitutionalist1958

I remember cheering as those fat ATF bastards, huffing and puffing, ran down the road in retreat.

8 posted on Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:13:18 PM by SJSAMPLE

[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Not sure if this link will take here, TV doesn't like links to other forums. It's FreeRepublic.com any way, chock full of good stuff like this.

Compulsive reading every time I feel my views are slipping a little to the right.

Link

As a source you're using a post from an anonymous poster on an Internet forum? OK, I know you're not being serious. Even if you were, note the anonymous poster was cheering because the feds were running away - not because they were getting shot. Big, big difference there.

Not as a moderator but as a Chiang Mai neighbor, may I kindly suggest that UG and caf ignore each other? Thank you.

I was going to pm you but as you have chosen to post on the thread may i recipricate and suggest that you stop his bitching. I have posted about the thread but he is talking all over the place including stirring it with kevin hunt again. Look at post 244, which another poster has commented on , then look at his posts on this and other threads.

come on pm. let's have some honesty.

caf

Maybe you should look up the definition of honesty. It might help to have some idea of what it is before posting.

the anonymous poster was cheering because the feds were running away - not because they were getting shot. Big, big difference there.

Bingo again. a BIG difference.

It's a good question. Orwell said it is "devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force upon other people." I think that's a pretty good definition and is distinguishes it from nationalism and certainly jingoism.

In my own mind, patriotism is like payment on a debt owed for gifts received. from a benevolent and just nation. Sometimes the debt carries for generations and sometimes the creditor loses their fiduciary credibility to an extent you may feel your debt has been repayed in full and zero balance remains.

As an aside, I don't really think there's such a thing as national sovereignty in any real sense anymore. Governments are mush more related to each other than the people they are elected to serve. Like you, I'd probably answer the call, but only if it came from what I once considered the nation(an assortment of ideals worth defending), certainly not from the government.

A very good post Lannarebirth.

In the colonisation of the US, I have a book home Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by a guy called Jared who claims that most of the original natives "just died" on the invaders arrival. He describes the population of huge towns on the east coast totally devastated by disease only a year after Europeans started arriving.

We could wonder if the US would be different today if it's original inhabitants had been resistant to bugs like measles.

They would likely have found another way to kill them if not through the spread of disease.

Anyhow, upon more reflection, I doubt if I'd answer the call for any undertaking whereby my actions would be construed as "patriotic". I think my family's debt is paid in full. Besides who do you pay it back to. The USA basically has ceased to exist. Through memberships in things like the UN, WTO, NAFTA, Gang of 7, Gang of 20, APEC, SEATO, NATO, OAS, etc, etc, etc, whatever it was is no longer what it is now. What it is now is an instrument of power projection by on and offshore global corporate and banking interests. Follow the money and see who the winners are.

You are claiming a group of Texans were seen celebrating the Waco incident because the "govt got their butts kicked initially in an illegal action"?

You claim you actually witnessed this on television and read about it somewhere else yet you either do not have or are refusing to provide a link that supports your claim.

You sound like you dont believe me......Chuck Im hurt

Oh wait I think I cant take you back to the time I saw it on TV.

Let me fire up the DeLorean & take you there....You do realize we will need a 1.21 gigawatts at least eh?

This is what the rest of my previous post tried to explain to you in a more normal fashion but since that failed we may need the Delorean no?

Read back & try to remember the whole thread in context.

I initially replied to UG about his sister<sic> claiming she heard saw a bunch in a Palestinian store ...in the US cheering for 9-11

I responded that I remember seeing & hearing about Texans cheering when the ATF got their butts kicked..................

Perhaps now explained ad nauseum you finally got it ?

I hope so & perhaps if you do *get it* you can explain that to Koheesti as he is farther adrift than you & cranky to boot Krup Pom

Why don't you just admit that you were frugal with the truth and get it over with? At least my sister does not have to make things up.

the anonymous poster was cheering because the feds were running away - not because they were getting shot. Big, big difference there.

Bingo again. a BIG difference.

Beats me, maybe the ones who hadn't been shot were running away?

Just offering a link that may have provided links to the claims made.

And another thing....

Interestingly.... has anyone noticed while it is the right that condemn this sort of action in the US, in Europe or Australia it would be the left that howled in outrage.

And another thing....

Interestingly.... has anyone noticed while it is the right that condemn this sort of action in the US, in Europe or Australia it would be the left that howled in outrage.

The American left is not of the same ilk as the international left. Privacy, abuse of power (internally) are right wing issues in the US. The American left, rather than trying to uplift the circumstances of the proletariat merely seekd to enrich those groups of corporations that align with its world view. It's all about the corporations, many of which do most of their business overseas. The left picks the bones of the populace for one group of masters, the right does it for another group.

Beats me, maybe the ones who hadn't been shot were running away?

Just offering a link that may have provided links to the claims made.

If anyone wanted to look at Waco there is a ton written & movies & you tubes etc.....

If wanted

Most of the actual footage is still available on you tube. Then there is all the other types too.

Ex FBI etc...

At least my sister does not have to make things up.

Sounds like something you read in a bathroom stall.

You are claiming a group of Texans were seen celebrating the Waco incident because the "govt got their butts kicked initially in an illegal action"?

You claim you actually witnessed this on television and read about it somewhere else yet you either do not have or are refusing to provide a link that supports your claim.

You sound like you dont believe me......Chuck Im hurt

Oh wait I think I cant take you back to the time I saw it on TV.

Let me fire up the DeLorean & take you there....You do realize we will need a 1.21 gigawatts at least eh?

This is what the rest of my previous post tried to explain to you in a more normal fashion but since that failed we may need the Delorean no?

Read back & try to remember the whole thread in context.

I initially replied to UG about his sister<sic> claiming she heard saw a bunch in a Palestinian store ...in the US cheering for 9-11

I responded that I remember seeing & hearing about Texans cheering when the ATF got their butts kicked..................

Perhaps now explained ad nauseum you finally got it ?

I hope so & perhaps if you do *get it* you can explain that to Koheesti as he is farther adrift than you & cranky to boot Krup Pom

So you really didn't see all these Texans dancing around frivolously celebrating the death of Federal agents. You were simply using your witty sense of humor to bait UG. Now I see.

Perhaps next time you can refrain from weak attempts at sarcasm and merely state the facts. If you didn't actually see it, simply so state. You don't appear nearly as foolish when you respond with the truth.

So you really didn't see all these Texans dancing around frivolously celebrating the death of Federal agents. You were simply using your witty sense of humor to bait UG. Now I see.

it's not Flying's fault! my sister saw them, i told Flying and he called my sister to verify what kind of celebrations she saw.

A likely story.

What Is A Patriot?

On a scale from 1 to 4, the USA is in the lead what Patriotism by country is concerned with 3,74 points in the first survey (1990-1992) and 3,92 in the second survey (1995-1997; so Patriotism was growing with almost 5% and will likely go beyond the possible 4.0 line very soon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism#Pa...tism_by_country

But it doesn't say much yet HOW the citizen of those various countries look upon the definition of "What is a Patriot"

Note: or am I, not being American, not allowed to write something is this mainly "Americanized" thread ?

LaoPo

So you really didn't see all these Texans dancing around frivolously celebrating the death of Federal agents. You were simply using your witty sense of humor to bait UG. Now I see.

Perhaps next time you can refrain from weak attempts at sarcasm and merely state the facts. If you didn't actually see it, simply so state.

sigh............Your usual....Take a simple statement & turn it into something else like you wrote above "all these Texans dancing around frivolously celebrating the death of Federal agents"

I did see Texans who thought it was correct that the ATF initially got their butts kicked in a fair fight due to their unlawful entry & lack of proper process......& it was not meant as wit or bait.

More so bait on your side calling for proof of something I saw.

As usual......You are so far beyond the point but if you must entertain yourself....perhaps you can go get the same holy proof & truth route from UG's statement about his sister heard noises? At least my recount was seen with my own eyes & heard with my own ears...

Perhaps next time it is you who could refrain from your constant useless attempts to derail pretty much every thread I have seen you post on...save one good to the point post which I complimented at the time....

Consider this a get it yourself service forum for simplicities sake. ..........So for your record I did see & hear what I stated else I would not have stated it.....kortort for my irresponsible behavior of not knowing 17 years ago that at a future date some old X-patriot would be asking me for pictures of my experiences.