Dowry

[cdnvic]

I do realize that in a lot of cases the farang is played for a sucker. This post is just to try to clarify reasons for observing the custom, for those who seem to think the whole thing is just a scam to extort money from hapless "wife-buying" farangs. The custom IS there in our culture, the issue is whether the lady you're marrying is observing tradition or was just planning to bleed you dry in the first place.

Siamese Kitty wins post of the day IMO. As a Thai reading some of what was said here it would be understandable if she fired back with a venomous salvo at some of the comments made about Thais and their culture, but instead delivered a balanced, and informative post.

I must say I appreciate the way you engage in these conversations with maturity and common sense. I wish more posters (myself included) could be a bit more like that sometimes. Thanks for your input on this.

cv

[meemiathai]

Before visiting this forum it had never even occurred to me that non-Thais would even feel offended by this, and view it as a financial transaction for wife-purchasing. It had always seemed an integral part of the wedding to me.

That means you are not western enough.

Actually I too did not know before about this being offensive.(I'm from HK)

That was a very lovely post, SK. And I also agree with what cdnvic said.

[dereklev]

Before visiting this forum it had never even occurred to me that non-Thais would even feel offended by this, and view it as a financial transaction for wife-purchasing. It had always seemed an integral part of the wedding to me.

That means you are not western enough.

Actually I too did not know before about this being offensive.(I'm from HK)

That was a very lovely post, SK. And I also agree with what cdnvic said.

Yes SK that was a very good post. Made a lot of sense and was very well written!

As cdnvic says you could easily have fired back with a venomous salvo. You must find the farang dismissal of Thai Culture very disappointing to say the least.

[britmaveric]

Personally I wouldn't do it on mere principle - however that being said if someone wants to practice this antiquated custom than so be it. It's your dosh spend it how you please. I prefer what Dave did - great wedding bash.

[Khutan]

I don't agree with the principle of it, but its a cultural thing.

There are also many things I think are silly for a western marraige as well.

[chuchok]

Well said SK.

To me it is a 50/50 thing.Both sides must respect each others culture equally.

[Tornado]

I don't agree with the principle of it, but its a cultural thing.

There are also many things I think are silly for a western marraige as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you mate!

Just because it is not normal in western culture means nothing at all, a dowry is paid in more countries than not - I think!

[siamesekitty]

Thanks to all who appreciated my comments.

Now having said all that, any of you guys who want to ask for my hand in marriage know what to do.. less than 8 digits is unacceptable. (Just for show, of course.. It will be returned after the wedding.. )

Edited May 2, 2005 by siamesekitty

[Tornado]

Thanks to all who appreciated my comments.

Now having said all that, any of you guys who want to marry me better prepare an 8-digit amount. It will be returned after the wedding.. of course.. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hope thats Thai Baht

[cdnvic]

Thanks to all who appreciated my comments.

Now having said all that, any of you guys who want to ask for my hand in marriage know what to do.. less than 8 digits in unacceptable. (Just for show, of course.. It will be returned after the wedding.. )

Oh good, so it doesn't have to be real money/gold then.

cv

[The_Other_Mac]

Thanks to all who appreciated my comments.

Now having said all that, any of you guys who want to ask for my hand in marriage know what to do.. less than 8 digits in unacceptable. (Just for show, of course.. It will be returned after the wedding.. )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does that include the ones after the decimal point?

[bino]

the one thing one could do, is marry a woman with no parents ,perhaps an older model, whose parents have died of old age , dowrey ploblem solved ! see? arnt i clever !

My GF fits this description, except being an older model. She is 2 years younger than me.

Even more incredible- she is an only child!

[chico]

Thanks to all who appreciated my comments.

Now having said all that, any of you guys who want to ask for my hand in marriage know what to do.. less than 8 digits is unacceptable. (Just for show, of course.. It will be returned after the wedding.. )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for your first post, I really think, cdnvic is wrong - it should not be "post of the day" - it should minimum be "post of the month".

Do not remember any post better than yours for long time!

For those, who are asking about high amounts being shown :

there was a wedding (about three years ago) of the son of an "important person"

(in Chonburi), the son being minister, and the bride from a high family, the money shown in front of her was 4 mill baht, the gift from the father to the couple a brandnew mercedes 280!

about your offer, sk - would love to take it, to give you more 'face' than you already have, but I'm very happily married and don't want to change it.

[thohts]

I think its an outmoded thing.

The reality is if you marry in thai you will be helping the family financialy anyway.

My missuses daughter who is aust thai is marrying a thai boy,he very sheepishsly came and asked the missus about what she wanted for a dowry and the ,missus said just treat my daughter well....his parents who are in BKK were very relieved.

I would never go for a "cash" dowry. If my girlfriend insists upon it, we won't be getting married. (It works both ways; she can decide to not marry me if I say I don't want to have kids, for example.)

Sure, I can "do what the Romans do". The traditional practice of 'Thong Mun' has nothing to do with cash at all. It is the giving of gold by the prospective groom to his fiancee. In place of a diamond ring as common in the West, Thais opt for the gold, normally in the form of jewellery.

That's fine with me. Cold hard cash is not. There are many things, too, in Western-style marriages that I do not agree with or would not follow through with (such as getting married inside a church). It's not just because the culture is different. I have my own beliefs, thank you.

Sinsod, the custom of paying a dowry to compensate a family of bride to honour the bride's parents for the hard work of bringing up their daughter, isn't mandatory. To me, it's discriminatory. That's fine that it's part of Thai culture. I respect that. But my bride should also respect my beliefs.

To compromise, I plan to set up a business, in her name only and all profits going to her, whereby her family (through her supporting them from revenue) will gain much more than a few tens of thousand baht.

This way, everyone's happy. And I still retain my dignity.

Edited May 2, 2005 by thohts

[gburns57au]

Thanks to all who appreciated my comments.

Now having said all that, any of you guys who want to ask for my hand in marriage know what to do.. less than 8 digits is unacceptable. (Just for show, of course.. It will be returned after the wedding.. )

SK...no worries....which 2 fingers would you like to keep ????

[Khutan]

.....Just for show, of course..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, that is good, will it matter of one side of the 1000 Baht notes is blank or has the word "Specimen" printed on it ?

[DP25]

Many countries have a dowry paid during a marriage.

But one thing I think very very few Thais would know is that in most countries, the women pays the MAN'S family a dowry. Traditionally in Europe and India, the women's family would pay the man's family to ensure that they could find a good man for their daughter. A family that loved their daughter would want to ensure that she had the very best, and so would be willing to pay to make sure that she had a good start in live with a good man.

Since the man is going to be taking care of the wife for the rest of her life, it is seen as extremely insulting by many that the man would have to pay money to the girls family. The girls family should be paying the man to ensure they have a good quality of life, and not selling their daughter so they gain face in their community.

For many non Asian people this is something that just cannot be negotiated. It is seen as purchasing a women like a prostitute. I could never do it, this one aspect I and many others just cannot adapt to. If others want to go ahead.

You can read a short wiki article about it here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry

[bkkmadness]

It is true that there is a reason for dowry to be paid for the man, the family will otherwise lose out on his earnings.

Paid for the woman, what is the reason?

It does seem like they are selling their daughters, be it the culture or not, and it does seem to be a bit of stupid tradition.

I mean, think about it, "we gain face and are respected because this guy paid such and such amount for my daughter, which was a lot more than so and so down the road got for their daughter. It does put a price on someones head.

As much as many people agree witht he dowry culture here, I have to ask when a man comes to marry your daughter, how will you work out how many baht she is worth?

[OlRedEyes]

its money/ gold that is asked from you by the parents for their daughter ,

sometimes they keep it, sometimes they give some /all of it back to you after the wedding

the amount varys, depending on how well off the family are-- if you marry a "hi-so" lady i will cost you, on the other hand if you marry a worn out bar girl ,you shouldnt expect to pay much at all

if your woman has been marryied before, you dont pay anything as a dowry will already have been payed

the whole thing is a joke as far as i can see  but thats just imho! either way you get screwed ,good luck if you are getting married ,you will need it !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't you just hate it when there is no price displayed on the merchandise.

I suppose it's because of the dual-pricing system in LOS?

[david1]

Thanks to all who appreciated my comments.

Now having said all that, any of you guys who want to ask for my hand in marriage know what to do.. less than 8 digits is unacceptable. (Just for show, of course.. It will be returned after the wedding.. )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent!!!!!! Very well written and balanced post.

[bina]

for those of u who think this dowry thing is dead in the west, check again:

for jewish families depending on ethnic background the woman must provide a dowry; some men even still have to 'kidnap' the bride and parents buy her back and then can proceed w/wedding depending (gruzini groups, kurdish etc)

all of us have a ketuba which is basically a pre nuptial agreement for if we divorce; the number written there is legally binding but most people write in a symbolic amount : mine was 1000 lira (before the old shekel); with deflation and the new currency it become something like 10 agorot!!!!(pennies)

the father of the bride 'signs' his daughter over to the groom

in many cultures the groom's family provide all the expenses of the wedding party (and all the monetary gifts just cover the cost); in others, the woman's side

in some cultures the man gives a bride price as presents and gold (its not a dowry a dowry is what the woman provides) ; the woman provides the dowry (land, furniture etc)...

all this is just to ensure that any couple has money to start off with; and if it ends, the woman gets taken care of mimally (as in the ketuba)

[Totster]

for those of u who think this dowry thing is dead in the west, check again:

for jewish families depending on ethnic background the woman must provide a dowry; some men even still have to 'kidnap' the bride and parents buy her back and then can proceed w/wedding depending (gruzini groups, kurdish etc)

all of us have a ketuba which is basically a pre nuptial agreement for if we divorce; the number written there is legally binding but most people write in a symbolic amount : mine was 1000 lira (before the old shekel); with deflation and the new currency it become something like 10 agorot!!!!(pennies)

the father of the bride 'signs' his daughter over to the groom

in many cultures the groom's family provide all the expenses of the wedding party (and all the monetary gifts just cover the cost); in others, the woman's side

in some cultures the man gives a bride price as presents and gold (its not a dowry a dowry is what the woman provides) ; the woman provides the dowry (land, furniture etc)...

all this is just to ensure that any couple has money to start off with; and if it  ends, the woman gets taken care of  mimally (as in the ketuba)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good points....

I think people should also remember that traditonally in the UK it's the brides father that has to pay for the wedding.... surely that's a form of payment to the grooms family... never heard the men moaning about that one...

totster

[sua yai]

Reading some of the posts here makes me realise how lucky I am. My gf's family are only asking for 50,000 Baht dowry. This money will be placed in a separate bank account for her to provide some future financial stability. The family have also said that if everything goes pear shaped within a year through no fault of mine, I'll get the money back. Whether that happens is another story though. I can't see us splitting up anyway and nor can she. If either of us thought this might be the case it would be a pretty negative start.

I know plenty of farangs who've paid 100,000 + for a big party and got the dowry back. My gf's family don't see the point in that. Much better that the money is put away for the future instead of being pi**ed up against the wall.

Although a bit taken aback at first with the whole idea of sin sod, I can see it's value now in this situation and have no problem with it.

[Pudgimelon]

Forget a dowery- it's BS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are we suggesting that Thai culture is BS? I mean it is a core part of Thai cultire and Thai do not see it as BS. Perhaps Thailand is not the place for those how feel this way.

Traditionally one would send a Phu Yai to the bride's house to help negotiate the dowery. This might be an elder family member or a village elder. Being a Farang removed a few steps from traditional Thai culture you will have to rely upon the bride for advice and it serves as a good litnus test. She should be willing to provide her family with an honorable dowery that does not cause financial hardship on her new family, that being the groom and her. I would think that B200,000 is a very fair amount these days, almost cheap.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Having a Phu Yai do the talking is definitely the way to go. Based on my own experiences, I can tell you that the dowry issue can be a potential minefield if you aren't very careful.

It's not simply a matter of haggling for an affordable price, there are whole layers of culture that are often too subtle for a foreigner to perceive. The Phu Yai would help you navigate these unfamiliar waters and help you avoid looking like a complete a$$ to your new in-laws.

Asking your wife to do the negotiations might seem like a good way to go--and it might be the only option for some people--but actually it's highly uncomfortable and stressful for many Thai women to talk to their parents about "how much" and "will it be returned" and etc.....

The whole issue is not something a younger woman should broach with her elders, and it will seem slightly "distasteful" and "weird" to all involved.

Now granted, many Thai families are understanding of your inexperience and you lack of cultural awareness, so they will almost certainly forgive you if you make any social faux pas. However, just because someone forgives you for stepping on their toes, doesn't mean the LIKE having their toes stepped on.

If you don't have a Phu Yai in mind, perhaps you should take a bit of time to get involved in your local community a bit more before you move forward on your wedding plans. If your particular situation doesn't require a "rush-job wedding" (and if it does, you've got more problems than a dowry, trust me), why not take a few months to get to know people around the area??

I don't know what the ideal age for a Phu Yai would be, but probably someone near your wife's parents age would be just fine. Too old and she might not be flexible enough to tolerate any "modern" or "Western" modifications to traditional arrangements. Too young and she might not feel comfortable pressing your in-laws for the things you want and need.

But a middle-aged woman who is educated (and preferably English-speaking and business-minded), would make an excellent Phu Yai. You and your wife could sit down with her and talk about the things you want. If you make a social faux pas while talking to your Phu Yai, that's FAR better than embarassing your wife in front of her parents.

The Phu Yai can then present your case to the parents and she can be the conduit for any negotiations if the parents don't accept your plans (and trust me, that is when you are REALLY going to need a Phu Yai, because if you and the parents are in disagreement on something, you can really screw things up by blundering about without a proper cultural-compass to guide you).

[gburns57au]

Forget a dowery- it's BS.

Are we suggesting that Thai culture is BS? I mean it is a core part of Thai cultire and Thai do not see it as BS. Perhaps Thailand is not the place for those how feel this way.

Traditionally one would send a Phu Yai to the bride's house to help negotiate the dowery. This might be an elder family member or a village elder. Being a Farang removed a few steps from traditional Thai culture you will have to rely upon the bride for advice and it serves as a good litnus test. She should be willing to provide her family with an honorable dowery that does not cause financial hardship on her new family, that being the groom and her. I would think that B200,000 is a very fair amount these days, almost cheap.

Having a Phu Yai do the talking is definitely the way to go. Based on my own experiences, I can tell you that the dowry issue can be a potential minefield if you aren't very careful.

It's not simply a matter of haggling for an affordable price, there are whole layers of culture that are often too subtle for a foreigner to perceive. The Phu Yai would help you navigate these unfamiliar waters and help you avoid looking like a complete a$$ to your new in-laws.

Asking your wife to do the negotiations might seem like a good way to go--and it might be the only option for some people--but actually it's highly uncomfortable and stressful for many Thai women to talk to their parents about "how much" and "will it be returned" and etc.....

The whole issue is not something a younger woman should broach with her elders, and it will seem slightly "distasteful" and "weird" to all involved.

Now granted, many Thai families are understanding of your inexperience and you lack of cultural awareness, so they will almost certainly forgive you if you make any social faux pas. However, just because someone forgives you for stepping on their toes, doesn't mean the LIKE having their toes stepped on.

If you don't have a Phu Yai in mind, perhaps you should take a bit of time to get involved in your local community a bit more before you move forward on your wedding plans. If your particular situation doesn't require a "rush-job wedding" (and if it does, you've got more problems than a dowry, trust me), why not take a few months to get to know people around the area??

I don't know what the ideal age for a Phu Yai would be, but probably someone near your wife's parents age would be just fine. Too old and she might not be flexible enough to tolerate any "modern" or "Western" modifications to traditional arrangements. Too young and she might not feel comfortable pressing your in-laws for the things you want and need.

But a middle-aged woman who is educated (and preferably English-speaking and business-minded), would make an excellent Phu Yai. You and your wife could sit down with her and talk about the things you want. If you make a social faux pas while talking to your Phu Yai, that's FAR better than embarassing your wife in front of her parents.

The Phu Yai can then present your case to the parents and she can be the conduit for any negotiations if the parents don't accept your plans (and trust me, that is when you are REALLY going to need a Phu Yai, because if you and the parents are in disagreement on something, you can really screw things up by blundering about without a proper cultural-compass to guide you).

What you need is someone who can translate the whole procedure to you......accurately.

200,000 baht would be for a well educated girl from a mid range family with no kids and the pig tail in the bowl.

[Totster]

200,000 baht would be for a well educated girl from a mid range family with no kids and the pig tail in the bowl.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quoting an amount is useless.... each situation is different.... the best advice is, talk with your GF and her family, negotiate... and come to an agreement that is acceptable by all...

Remember, the negotiations should also remain amiable, it's not you against them..

I also think any agreement made between you and the family, is between you and them and should be kept that way...

totster

[Dazzler]

Forget a dowery- it's BS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are we suggesting that Thai culture is BS? I mean it is a core part of Thai cultire and Thai do not see it as BS. Perhaps Thailand is not the place for those how feel this way.

Traditionally one would send a Phu Yai to the bride's house to help negotiate the dowery. This might be an elder family member or a village elder. Being a Farang removed a few steps from traditional Thai culture you will have to rely upon the bride for advice and it serves as a good litnus test. She should be willing to provide her family with an honorable dowery that does not cause financial hardship on her new family, that being the groom and her. I would think that B200,000 is a very fair amount these days, almost cheap.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Having a Phu Yai do the talking is definitely the way to go. Based on my own experiences, I can tell you that the dowry issue can be a potential minefield if you aren't very careful.

It's not simply a matter of haggling for an affordable price, there are whole layers of culture that are often too subtle for a foreigner to perceive. The Phu Yai would help you navigate these unfamiliar waters and help you avoid looking like a complete a$$ to your new in-laws.

Asking your wife to do the negotiations might seem like a good way to go--and it might be the only option for some people--but actually it's highly uncomfortable and stressful for many Thai women to talk to their parents about "how much" and "will it be returned" and etc.....

The whole issue is not something a younger woman should broach with her elders, and it will seem slightly "distasteful" and "weird" to all involved.

Now granted, many Thai families are understanding of your inexperience and you lack of cultural awareness, so they will almost certainly forgive you if you make any social faux pas. However, just because someone forgives you for stepping on their toes, doesn't mean the LIKE having their toes stepped on.

If you don't have a Phu Yai in mind, perhaps you should take a bit of time to get involved in your local community a bit more before you move forward on your wedding plans. If your particular situation doesn't require a "rush-job wedding" (and if it does, you've got more problems than a dowry, trust me), why not take a few months to get to know people around the area??

I don't know what the ideal age for a Phu Yai would be, but probably someone near your wife's parents age would be just fine. Too old and she might not be flexible enough to tolerate any "modern" or "Western" modifications to traditional arrangements. Too young and she might not feel comfortable pressing your in-laws for the things you want and need.

But a middle-aged woman who is educated (and preferably English-speaking and business-minded), would make an excellent Phu Yai. You and your wife could sit down with her and talk about the things you want. If you make a social faux pas while talking to your Phu Yai, that's FAR better than embarassing your wife in front of her parents.

The Phu Yai can then present your case to the parents and she can be the conduit for any negotiations if the parents don't accept your plans (and trust me, that is when you are REALLY going to need a Phu Yai, because if you and the parents are in disagreement on something, you can really screw things up by blundering about without a proper cultural-compass to guide you).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good advice, but why would you have a female to represent your interests (Phu Yai)? I would expect in most cases that a man would have more authority and status in traditional thai culture (not my opinion ladies) and therefore be more successful in the negotiations? Is it a cultural thing?

As for Sin Sod, it should be up to the prospective groom to assess both his, his wife's and his new family's situation and decide what's best. He then either gets lucky, puts his foot down (dangerous) or goes along with the family's wishes (more expensive but much less dangerous!).

[Heng]

- In this modern age, traditional customs might not always be followed (esp. in relationships with non-Thais), but the custom of sin sod is still alive in many Thai weddings, in fact nearly all the ones I've known of. It's still a custom, like farangs buying diamond engagement rings.

Surely it's comforting for foreigners to know that their Thai significant others are more than willing to compromise "culturally" and accept diamond engagement rings are part of the marriage process. Even in the middle of baan nok, this show of cultural flexibility is inspiring.

[chuchok]

- In this modern age, traditional customs might not always be followed (esp. in relationships with non-Thais), but the custom of sin sod is still alive in many Thai weddings, in fact nearly all the ones I've known of. It's still a custom, like farangs buying diamond engagement rings.

Surely it's comforting for foreigners to know that their Thai significant others are more than willing to compromise "culturally" and accept diamond engagement rings are part of the marriage process. Even in the middle of baan nok, this show of cultural flexibility is inspiring.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So true! What happens when you tell mum and dad that in your culture, the brides parents must pay for the party?

[pnustedt]

My step daughter gets married in Nov. Dowry agreed at Bt250,000! Nice girl, bank clerk. She comes with her own apartment tho.

When in Asia stick to the Asian customs - that's what I reckon