Buying A Car At The Grey Market

[blakegeee]

As i said, be sure to check everything carefully including page 18.

and how do you check page 18?

Normally it doesnt state how much has been payed, what invoice value, cc and hp. Thats where the tax evation is being done on grey imports

As i understand it, if the tax information was not transferred over from an old book, was simply not paid, or if the book was actually edited from a domestic thai bike, than the pg 18 information will not be there at all. If it does have the page 18 info, still get a Thai to read and explain it and when you are in the DMV, get them to verify it.

Edited February 2, 2010 by blakegeee

[katabeachbum]

As i said, be sure to check everything carefully including page 18.

and how do you check page 18?

Normally it doesnt state how much has been payed, what invoice value, cc and hp. Thats where the tax evation is being done on grey imports

As i understand it, if the tax information was not transferred over from an old book, was simply not paid, or if the book was actually edited from a domestic thai bike, than the pg 18 information will not be there at all. If it does have the page 18 info, still get a Thai to read and explain it and when you are in the DMV, get them to verify it.

in best case it says where and when tax has been payed and invoice number. thats not sufficient.

so basicly you need tax invoice to see how its been calculated. have yet to see a grey market dealer willing to provide this. seen it on one bigbike, and it was a few thousand baht of taxes payed. was supposed to be like 300.000 Baht. yammy Tmax, costs 555.000 baht new.

[LivinLOS]

A lot of this info is misinformation as you have mentioned. "hundreds of bikes taken away in this identical situation". TOTAL BS! I am sure the odd legally imported bike may have been mixed into this deal (until proven to be legal) but not hundreds. The masses of these bikes being taken away were "illegally imported" usually without a registration, green book or plates. NOT the same situation at all.

Simply not true >30 were taken in one day on Phuket..

The total number is easily 100's.. Until last year no one knew anything about the page 18 tax requirements, in fact most still dont know anything about them.

The illegal bikes deserve all they get, but the ones where importers paid bribes to not pay the excise tax, and the DMV forgot to move excise tax info from book to book, the end user shouldnt be at fault.

Do not confuse unpaid excise tax and illegal grey books.. If you dont know about it, then read about it.. It happened !!

and they had registration, greenbook and plates. the owners thought they where legal, some of them where legal, but owner unable to prove it 10 years later

In this case noone would buy any big bikes at all, as a BIB's can confiscate your bike anytime he like it (maybe for personal use). So what happen when nothing is mantioned or written a the page 18????

If its a grey import / not manufacturer direct.. And no page 18.. Post 97 for first reg.. then pay up as per their demands.. 50k plus for harleys.. 30k for rougher bikes down to 5 - 10 for a 50 - 70k type 400.. But also with many of these payments they didnt give receipts or put any page 18 info in.. The customers fault for stupidity but at the time no one knew anything and the customs office wouldnt explain anything just "you pay" and "big ploblem" "cannot" etc because they didnt want people to understand it. They wouldnt explain, or discuss, or anything. It was ugly !!

What they said to me was even tho my bikes a 95 and the book says it was regged then, "how we know you import 95.. Maybe you import later.. Bring us the first book".. Well as they keep the old book when they issue a new one, thats nice !!!

Someone else had photocopies of their old book which had page 18 tax info, and a new book they hadnt bothered to move the data from one to another (makes you wonder how many thats the case) I dont know if he ever got his back or paid the bribes or what..

Its a TOTAL mess, its being abused by a corrupt customs dept.. And theres little you can do.. Buy a bike from a main dealer supply line or make sure it has page 18 excise tax info on engine and frame.

[LivinLOS]

Ohh I should add.. Phuket will not process a sale on a bike if theres no page 18 tax info either.. They refer you to customs.. They also dont know the rules (pre 97) but they simply refer you to customs, who are bent as an arabs dagger.. Catch 22..

[123ace]

I would not recommned grey unless you are very well seasoned in cras and living here. A uk car will have some different spec parts, notably air con tuned for the uk, but no big deal. Its a specialty car here even from BMW, and spare parts are an issue. I have had specilaty cars here before and if its going to be your daily driver it may become a bore.

Better to buy a real sports car from a local main dealer, take the huge tax hit on the chin and keep it for 4 - 6 years. The Z4 may be also an auto, and if so will rapidly bore you to tears.

I have seen horror stoies here with super marques in bangkok and promised myself to never go there again...

[katabeachbum]

I would not recommned grey unless you are very well seasoned in cras and living here. A uk car will have some different spec parts, notably air con tuned for the uk, but no big deal. Its a specialty car here even from BMW, and spare parts are an issue. I have had specilaty cars here before and if its going to be your daily driver it may become a bore.

Better to buy a real sports car from a local main dealer, take the huge tax hit on the chin and keep it for 4 - 6 years. The Z4 may be also an auto, and if so will rapidly bore you to tears.

I have seen horror stoies here with super marques in bangkok and promised myself to never go there again...

good point

uk spec is cold climate spec. small aircon and coolers. Euro spec does often require 95 or 98 octane petrol. 95 is only available at Shell, 98 not at all.

Thai is hot climate spec, larger aircon, oilcoolers etc

Spareparts are of course an issue, and BMW Los is not very friendly with grey imports. If they will let grey import owners buy spareparts, they have two-pricing. This is a policy of Lexus, Benz and BMW. of course they carry only Thai spec spareparts.

[stingray]

I would not recommned grey unless you are very well seasoned in cras and living here. A uk car will have some different spec parts, notably air con tuned for the uk, but no big deal. Its a specialty car here even from BMW, and spare parts are an issue. I have had specilaty cars here before and if its going to be your daily driver it may become a bore.

Better to buy a real sports car from a local main dealer, take the huge tax hit on the chin and keep it for 4 - 6 years. The Z4 may be also an auto, and if so will rapidly bore you to tears.

I have seen horror stoies here with super marques in bangkok and promised myself to never go there again...

good point

uk spec is cold climate spec. small aircon and coolers. Euro spec does often require 95 or 98 octane petrol. 95 is only available at Shell, 98 not at all.

Thai is hot climate spec, larger aircon, oilcoolers etc

Spareparts are of course an issue, and BMW Los is not very friendly with grey imports. If they will let grey import owners buy spareparts, they have two-pricing. This is a policy of Lexus, Benz and BMW. of course they carry only Thai spec spareparts.

Don't understand that exactly. Om my former bike on page 18 there was mention only about trasferign the bike in different area, anyway i sold it one moht ago and i didn't had any troubles to chang the name on the transpo office. But they way you talk, it look like they want that all of us have to buy all those ugly local made lady bikes. Good to know, never buy a bike again. I can living without it!

[LivinLOS]

I would not recommned grey unless you are very well seasoned in cras and living here. A uk car will have some different spec parts, notably air con tuned for the uk, but no big deal. Its a specialty car here even from BMW, and spare parts are an issue. I have had specilaty cars here before and if its going to be your daily driver it may become a bore.

Better to buy a real sports car from a local main dealer, take the huge tax hit on the chin and keep it for 4 - 6 years. The Z4 may be also an auto, and if so will rapidly bore you to tears.

I have seen horror stoies here with super marques in bangkok and promised myself to never go there again...

good point

uk spec is cold climate spec. small aircon and coolers. Euro spec does often require 95 or 98 octane petrol. 95 is only available at Shell, 98 not at all.

Thai is hot climate spec, larger aircon, oilcoolers etc

Spareparts are of course an issue, and BMW Los is not very friendly with grey imports. If they will let grey import owners buy spareparts, they have two-pricing. This is a policy of Lexus, Benz and BMW. of course they carry only Thai spec spareparts.

Don't understand that exactly. Om my former bike on page 18 there was mention only about trasferign the bike in different area, anyway i sold it one moht ago and i didn't had any troubles to chang the name on the transpo office. But they way you talk, it look like they want that all of us have to buy all those ugly local made lady bikes. Good to know, never buy a bike again. I can living without it!

The point is simple from my perspective.. Its one thing to play that game with bikes, its a few 100k.. Of the bribes and fines are in the 1xxxx range.. But to play that with a 3 - 5 mil car, that may or may not get put togther rights by Thai mechs, that might have all kinds of squeeks and rattles from the teardown / rebuild, that wont have dealer warranty and so many issues..

For me its too big a risk, and I take some risks.

[katabeachbum]

I would not recommned grey unless you are very well seasoned in cras and living here. A uk car will have some different spec parts, notably air con tuned for the uk, but no big deal. Its a specialty car here even from BMW, and spare parts are an issue. I have had specilaty cars here before and if its going to be your daily driver it may become a bore.

Better to buy a real sports car from a local main dealer, take the huge tax hit on the chin and keep it for 4 - 6 years. The Z4 may be also an auto, and if so will rapidly bore you to tears.

I have seen horror stoies here with super marques in bangkok and promised myself to never go there again...

good point

uk spec is cold climate spec. small aircon and coolers. Euro spec does often require 95 or 98 octane petrol. 95 is only available at Shell, 98 not at all.

Thai is hot climate spec, larger aircon, oilcoolers etc

Spareparts are of course an issue, and BMW Los is not very friendly with grey imports. If they will let grey import owners buy spareparts, they have two-pricing. This is a policy of Lexus, Benz and BMW. of course they carry only Thai spec spareparts.

a grey market dealer had some cars on display in Central Phuket yesterday.

I didnt look at the spec of the BMW Z4, but I did on the displayed Benz cars. They are Euro Bluefficincy spec.

250CDi BE requires Euro 4 diesel, which will be commonly available in LOS in 2012. Using ordinary LOS diesel will damage within months, and car stops.

Displayed Bluefficiency gasoline car requires 98 octane, which is not available in LOS.

Benz LOS have these cars modified to run LOS fule quality.

[soundman]

250CDi BE requires Euro 4 diesel, which will be commonly available in LOS in 2012. Using ordinary LOS diesel will damage within months, and car stops.

I might be wrong, however, I thought Bangjak (BCP) sells Euro4 spec. B5 as a standard product?

[katabeachbum]

250CDi BE requires Euro 4 diesel, which will be commonly available in LOS in 2012. Using ordinary LOS diesel will damage within months, and car stops.

I might be wrong, however, I thought Bangjak (BCP) sells Euro4 spec. B5 as a standard product?

yepp, and there is Euro 4 diesel available at Shell, called V-Power. However, sometimes not available. What do you do then?

My 2006 Vigo has been running Euro 4 fuel since I discovered it improves milage,power and emmision. But whenever its not available, I use whatever is available.

Lets face it, most owners will fill it up at Ptt with Euro 3 B5, because they havent been informed about the fuel requirement and following damages

Edit I guess thats why Benz LOS is selling/building a modified car, not Euro spec, in LOS. Able to run ordinary LOS fuel without damages to car.

Edited February 4, 2010 by katabeachbum

[Gary A]

I don't know why anyone would even consider gray market vehicles. It's quite easy to get cheated when you are doing everything according to the law.

[LivinLOS]

I don't know why anyone would even consider gray market vehicles. It's quite easy to get cheated when you are doing everything according to the law.

Also it always seems to me Thais are adept and punishing those who break the spirit of laws even if they are within the fine print of the legal law.. You want to save money or cut a corner one way or another, in biz or in visas or some other way.. Fine you might get away with it, and then they find another unusued rule to tax you a bit more, to frustrate you one way or another..

[Nordlys]

I don't know why anyone would even consider gray market vehicles. It's quite easy to get cheated when you are doing everything according to the law.

Wasn't there a large gray importer in Thailand whose founder embezzled huge amount of money from his company last year to funnel into his another failing business and the company share trading was suspended and up to delisting from SEC? It is beyond me how a gray importer could be listed in the first place. I don't know about the imports from Europe and US but I know the gray imports from Japan are all Japanese domestic market models not certified for export, not to mention the expensive center-console displays that displays only in Japanese language. Whoever the dealers in Japan that sold these cars to gray importers are in violation of dealership agreement with Toyota. I know this for a fact from a Toyota dealer in Bangkok (Toyota LIBRA) who's a joint venture company of Toyota dealer in northern Japan and Toyota Tsusho Trading.

[stingray]

I don't know why anyone would even consider gray market vehicles. It's quite easy to get cheated when you are doing everything according to the law.

Wasn't there a large gray importer in Thailand whose founder embezzled huge amount of money from his company last year to funnel into his another failing business and the company share trading was suspended and up to delisting from SEC? It is beyond me how a gray importer could be listed in the first place. I don't know about the imports from Europe and US but I know the gray imports from Japan are all Japanese domestic market models not certified for export, not to mention the expensive center-console displays that displays only in Japanese language. Whoever the dealers in Japan that sold these cars to gray importers are in violation of dealership agreement with Toyota. I know this for a fact from a Toyota dealer in Bangkok (Toyota LIBRA) who's a joint venture company of Toyota dealer in northern Japan and Toyota Tsusho Trading.

Actually there is a loopwhole. The new cars get registered in the foreign country (Japan for example) put a 100 miles on it and deregistered the same day. Now they are used. So they export them to Thailand and sometime they can cash some money like 7% Vat for example (i don't know what kind of tax they have overthere in Japan), similar as the VAT in Thailand or the "Mehrwertsteuer" in Germany. Those used cars can be exported to anywhere without getting in troubles with new car dealership. But actually they are new. Anyway, it doen't make sense to export for them a Japanese car to Thailand, as they manufacter those locally overhere.

[mpetersen]

Dr_lucas, you seem to be pretty resistant to advice.

So just go ahead and buy the Z4. It will make a good read on TV some day when "something" happens to it. I'll stay tuned.

Please complete the following: "if it seems to good to be true, ...."

LN

What a nonsense. I am just interested in real facts that can help me decide, not disinformation.

Please complete the following: "If you have nothing nice to say..."

I am getting a headache reading this. DO NOT BUY A GREY CAR. period. 1) Grey importers go bust all the time. They probably cheated on taxes/imports and bribed the cars into the country to a much higher degree than they pass on to you. If you save 1.5M they save another 1.5M. But you get caught later and pay 3 M plus interest etc. Save yourself the trouble already.

If you are interested in saving money, just buy a gently used BMW from the dealer, or a private seller (a legit not grey resale). We bought a Freelander for about 1/4 of new price with just 40,000 kms on it. Can't lose on that, can ya? Drive another 80K, it's still perfectly fine, and probably still worth half of what we paid for it.

I just can't imagine why you would be so keen on buying this car with that type of risk involved. For all you know it could be a lemon, it could have legit parts stripped and replaced with cheap replacements, whatever.

I am gonna stop reading this post now. If you get f'cked on this deal you deserve it after hearing everyone's advice. Stop asking already.

M

[dr_lucas]

This is quite an old post, I know, but I would like to revive the discussion.

I just been to Expo 2011 in Impact a few days ago.

They have the very big Grey importer BRM showcasing their luxury imported cars, including Mercedes-Benz, Bentley etc.

I went to check on the E250 convertible at Mercedes-Benz (the official importer) and the sales there recommended me to go check out and purchase cars from BRM, which is basically a very large grey market dealer.

Does that make sense? Is BRM safe compared to other dealers?

[funcat]

This is quite an old post, I know, but I would like to revive the discussion.

I just been to Expo 2011 in Impact a few days ago.

They have the very big Grey importer BRM showcasing their luxury imported cars, including Mercedes-Benz, Bentley etc.

I went to check on the E250 convertible at Mercedes-Benz (the official importer) and the sales there recommended me to go check out and purchase cars from BRM, which is basically a very large grey market dealer.

Does that make sense? Is BRM safe compared to other dealers?

...are you not happy with your Z4...??

[caphant]

...are you not happy with your Z4...??

lol

Can bring a car in as donnor to part out or could just buy a wreck or cheap cars book and swap but theres always the risk, friend has a chrysler neon which has an uncanny resemblance to a 300 lol....but at 3 or so mill for the non hemi, it might be worth the risk, for 30% off though, forget about it...wouldnt like the feeling of potentially losing my car when driving it, id be driving a 6 series or porsche in thailand if the customs was transparent/less corrupt and the system wasnt so protectionist against non assembled thai cars. The bmw/benz service centers will take back that saved money eventually in service, headache and parts costs. modern engines need diagnostic kits etc so cant just work on it at home or in some side of the road garage, no options means youll be paying ransoms for servicing at the very limited number of authorized dealerships one way or another.

Hope VW and more companies come to thailand to spice up the boring LOS assembled/produced market.

Edited December 10, 2011 by caphant

[MoonRiverOasis]

This is quite an old post, I know, but I would like to revive the discussion.

I just been to Expo 2011 in Impact a few days ago.

They have the very big Grey importer BRM showcasing their luxury imported cars, including Mercedes-Benz, Bentley etc.

I went to check on the E250 convertible at Mercedes-Benz (the official importer) and the sales there recommended me to go check out and purchase cars from BRM, which is basically a very large grey market dealer.

Does that make sense? Is BRM safe compared to other dealers?

Mercedes Benz Thailand have a special program for gray-market imports, where they will inspect the car and make any adjsutments necessary to properly localize it to Thai spec, after which they will provide a 3-year unlimited KM warranty.

You have to make sure that the model you're looking at quialifies for the program (not all models do), and you'll need to pay the entry price with is currently 300,000 Baht for the E-Class models.

if that works, then at least you have the peace of mind of factory warranty and access to actual Benz service centers....

[MoonRiverOasis]

Hope VW and more companies come to thailand to spice up the boring LOS assembled/produced market.

BMW, Benz and Volvo all assemble models in Thailand, and VW and Peugeot have models with assembly (or soon to have assembly) in Malaysia - so no import duties under the ASEAN FTA.

Edited December 10, 2011 by MoonRiverOasis

[caphant]

Hope VW and more companies come to thailand to spice up the boring LOS assembled/produced market.

BMW, Benz and Volvo all assemble models in Thailand, and VW and Peugeot have models with assembly (or soon to have assembly) in Malaysia - so no import duties under the ASEAN FTA.

Alright wasnt aware they still assembled them, i know the vw passat highline and benz/bmw used to (had the e39), but thought in recent years the production took a backseat, Ive noticed a slight hyundai resurgence and suzuki seems to be trying make some sales again having retrenched opperations to the point of near exiting alltogether. Looking fwd to that malaysian assembly then, I like the passat and the golf gti is steep priced as an import.

[dominique355]

I am one of those who bought a grey market Mercedes and here is why:

First I was interested in a E63AMG and tried to contact the official Mercedes-Benz dealer here in BKK. No reply. Then I tried their website and found even a link for the E 63 AMG but the link went nowhere. So I started to ask my friends about where and who etc.

Then my Missus and I walked into Central Chidlom and saw an exhibition from a grey market importer. He had a CLS on display and the Mrs fell in love. So we asked for the price and spec etc. The dealer promised to call me and give me all the details. He never called. At the same time I contacted some people for selling my Audi A6 and mentioned that I was looking for a CLS or a E 63 AMG.

The next day a guy called me and said he had found a grey market dealer with a brand new CLS 350 CDI. So we went to have a look. The guy asked for 5.5 Mio which he reduced to 5.2 Mio. I compared that to the "official" price of over 8 Mio and closed the deal.

OK, I had no official guarantee but for an "adoption" fee of 500,000 THB I got registered with an official Benz dealer and can now claim guarantee. I didn't have to, so far (6 months), but it seems to me this is worth the risk.

The car is from the UK, the speedometer is in mph, but the trip computer can display the actual speed in digital in km/h. So no problems respecting the speed limits (which I do all the time )

The car is amazing with up to 50mpg (Imperial gallons),which I calculated to be about 5.9 l /100 km. And with the 3 liter diesel engine and 275 HP very powerful. No regrets. I would do it again and avoid those high-nose Mercedes-Benz dealers anytime.

[dr_lucas]

OK, I had no official guarantee but for an "adoption" fee of 500,000 THB I got registered with an official Benz dealer and can now claim guarantee. I didn't have to, so far (6 months), but it seems to me this is worth the risk.

Sounds good!

How long is the warranty for and how many KMs limit that you got for the 500,000 THB you paid?

[MoonRiverOasis]

OK, I had no official guarantee but for an "adoption" fee of 500,000 THB I got registered with an official Benz dealer and can now claim guarantee. I didn't have to, so far (6 months), but it seems to me this is worth the risk.

Sounds good!

How long is the warranty for and how many KMs limit that you got for the 500,000 THB you paid?

I have already answered this question, but just to be thoroughly clear:

Gray market MB imports can gain access to a 3 year unlimited kilometer factory warranty program and roadside assistance, so long as the model qualifies (not all do), full entry payment is made, and the car has been inspected and modified (if necessary) by MB TH.

Program Entry Fees:

• A Class, B Class and C Class - 150,000 Baht
• E Class, SLK Class and C Coupe - 300,000 Baht
• CLS, S Class, M Class and R Class - 400,000 Baht
• SL Class, CL Class and AMG - 500,000 Baht

[katabeachbum]

OK, I had no official guarantee but for an "adoption" fee of 500,000 THB I got registered with an official Benz dealer and can now claim guarantee. I didn't have to, so far (6 months), but it seems to me this is worth the risk.

Sounds good!

How long is the warranty for and how many KMs limit that you got for the 500,000 THB you paid?

I have already answered this question, but just to be thoroughly clear:

Gray market MB imports can gain access to a 3 year unlimited kilometer factory warranty program and roadside assistance, so long as the model qualifies (not all do), full entry payment is made, and the car has been inspected and modified (if necessary) by MB TH.

Program Entry Fees:

• A Class, B Class and C Class - 150,000 Baht
• E Class, SLK Class and C Coupe - 300,000 Baht
• CLS, S Class, M Class and R Class - 400,000 Baht
• SL Class, CL Class and AMG - 500,000 Baht

I find it very od the gray importers market Blue Efficiency benz as the diesels require EuroIV and the gasoline require 98RON to run clean

[MoonRiverOasis]

I find it very od the gray importers market Blue Efficiency benz as the diesels require EuroIV and the gasoline require 98RON to run clean

Probably because up until August this year, MB TH were providing free warranty on gray imports - so "someone else's problem"..

No doubt it's because of all the inappropriately imported models the MB TH initiated the abovementioned program.

[funcat]

I find it very od the gray importers market Blue Efficiency benz as the diesels require EuroIV and the gasoline require 98RON to run clean

Probably because up until August this year, MB TH were providing free warranty on gray imports - so "someone else's problem"..

No doubt it's because of all the inappropriately imported models the MB TH initiated the abovementioned program.

The last car auction included a sale of the '04 E 240 Benz,it is not often that you can see cars like that to be auctioned,so just wonder of the risk involved in buying a Benz at the auction?One definitely has to have some "inside" info on the history,but that's not so easy...and of course no info on the taxes paid....Looks like big risk to me...but there was(!) one bidder,so it went for the asking bid of 1.5 mil+7%+ change....good deal,or not ??

Edited December 19, 2011 by funcat

[bkkexplorer]

Hi,

I'm putting together a list of grey car dealers in Bangkok and would like to have experiences from fellow members as to what make/ model (imported cars) purchased and dealings you had with the company you purchased from. Don't have to be lengthy replies, just an idea of how the deal went and your satisfaction. Contacts persons within the companies would be much appreciated as well.

thanks.