It's all in the perception.

With this one move, any sympathy that the reds have garnered- any respect for their mounting a demonstration of this magnitude in an orderly and 'civilized' manner, will be seriously compromised. Some have suggested that by launching grenades at the sodiers, the reds are merely 'provoking' the army into clamping down. But this is not provocation- this is an armed attack. Nor will it be popularly regarded as mere 'provocation'. Public sentiment will swing decidedly against the reds. A worst case scenario for the organizers.

With all the media reports of grenade factories, stolen assault rifles, arms caches- and now this- "proof' that these reds truly are a deranged murderous mob- without the brains to go two days without shooting themselves in the foot.

I just had a very articulate Thai women in my store who is very anti-Thaksin and has never had anything good to say about the redshirts. She feels that the protesters in Bangkok have conducted themselves so well this weekend that they are making a real case for themselves with Thais that were against them before.

Let us hope that no one has ruined all of that.

Some people may be aware that the US launched an open war against North Vietnam due to an 'incident' in the Gulf of Tonkin in August 1964. It was later revealed the 'incident' had been engineered by the Americans. It's possible, in a similar, vein, that what seems obvious, isn't obvious especially in a land of smoke and mirrors such as Thailand. Skepticism is healthy. Due to this incident, a 'power' in this large chess game may gain an advantage. However, without question you could just believe it's the red shirts. Up to you.

ironically, the reds have been rallied by their leader to return to Ratchadamnoen. Prolly to get away from being suspects and getting found out huh?

Well, ok...you can suspect its a conspiracy theory...thats more of a western perspective. everything being some conspiracy theory.

A lot more led to the first troops being dropped in 'Nam than just Tonkin.

Every grenade to date over the past few years has been fired at Thaksin's opponents not at his supporters. There have been a number of deaths and injuries to them. That is the only pattern we are sure of. Draw what conclusion you like from it.

Some people may be aware that the US launched an open war against North Vietnam due to an 'incident' in the Gulf of Tonkin in August 1964. It was later revealed the 'incident' had been engineered by the Americans. It's possible, in a similar, vein, that what seems obvious, isn't obvious especially in a land of smoke and mirrors such as Thailand. Skepticism is healthy. Due to this incident, a 'power' in this large chess game may gain an advantage. However, without question you could just believe it's the red shirts. Up to you.

Wasn't it one of the main red leaders who stated that they wanted to turn Bangkok into a sea of fire over the weekend? Dig around in your history box all you want.

Some people may be aware that the US launched an open war against North Vietnam due to an 'incident' in the Gulf of Tonkin in August 1964. It was later revealed the 'incident' had been engineered by the Americans. It's possible, in a similar, vein, that what seems obvious, isn't obvious especially in a land of smoke and mirrors such as Thailand. Skepticism is healthy. Due to this incident, a 'power' in this large chess game may gain an advantage. However, without question you could just believe it's the red shirts. Up to you.

You could be right. Anything is possible.

At this point in time, I lean away from that particular conspiracy theory.

Cmon guys, don't be to quick to place the blame.

I have my personal opinions too...and I am always careful to watch my back, FIRST.

But we shouldn't make an accusation we can't cover with a FACT....and right now, as of yet, there are no facts.

We don't want to end up with bad case of "foot-in-the-mouth disease", do we?

However....If it quacks like a Duck, waddles like a Duck, and looks like a Duck;

then probably it IS a Duck.

Some people may be aware that the US launched an open war against North Vietnam due to an 'incident' in the Gulf of Tonkin in August 1964. It was later revealed the 'incident' had been engineered by the Americans. It's possible, in a similar, vein, that what seems obvious, isn't obvious especially in a land of smoke and mirrors such as Thailand. Skepticism is healthy. Due to this incident, a 'power' in this large chess game may gain an advantage. However, without question you could just believe it's the red shirts. Up to you.

Wasn't it one of the main red leaders who stated that they wanted to turn Bangkok into a sea of fire over the weekend? Dig around in your history box all you want.

Thaksin said he wants to restore democracy. I said I was going to beat up Billy Smith when I was 7 after he had gone home. Rhetoric is just that.

It's because of responses like Loaded's I hope the army have the sense to remain cool.

I didn't read Loaded's response.....but why should the army remain cool? I think this is the perfect opportunity for the army to show some spine and venture out. An army unit was just fired upon.....any other time or place, in any country, and the neighbourhood would have been locked down and the perps tracked down and killed. Justifiably so.

Imagine if a grenade had been fired into an Israeli barracks while Palestinians protested outside.

If the shooter was a Palestinian, sure, they'd go medieval on his etc.

But in situation where the protesters are Israeli, security forces are usually restrained (well, strike that if we're talking about Arab Israeli citizens, but that's a whole different issue).

Point is these are people of the same nation here, probably quite a few from the same provinces.

Cmon guys, don't be to quick to place the blame.

I have my personal opinions too...and I am always careful to watch my back, FIRST.

But we shouldn't make an accusation we can't cover with a FACT....and right now, as of yet, there are no facts.

We don't want to end up with bad case of "foot-in-the-mouth disease", do we?

However....If it quacks like a Duck, waddles like a Duck, and looks like a Duck;

then probably it IS a Duck.

Agree. But is it a white duck or a black duck? A red duck- or a green duck? Which duck stands to gain? And which to lose?

Cmon guys, don't be to quick to place the blame.

I have my personal opinions too...and I am always careful to watch my back, FIRST.

But we shouldn't make an accusation we can't cover with a FACT....and right now, as of yet, there are no facts.

We don't want to end up with bad case of "foot-in-the-mouth disease", do we?

However....If it quacks like a Duck, waddles like a Duck, and looks like a Duck;

then probably it IS a Duck.

ironic timing with the red leader ordering their return to ratchadamnern

***URL removed***

.........as for the conspiracies..haven't seen to many of those. not so sure most of them are that clever anyhow

The news article says an M79 grenade not 4. where does that 4 comes from??????????????????????? More Yellow shirt lies??????????

It's because of responses like Loaded's I hope the army have the sense to remain cool.

I didn't read Loaded's response.....but why should the army remain cool? I think this is the perfect opportunity for the army to show some spine and venture out. An army unit was just fired upon.....any other time or place, in any country, and the neighbourhood would have been locked down and the perps tracked down and killed. Justifiably so.

Imagine if a grenade had been fired into an Israeli barracks while Palestinians protested outside.

The problem is the perpertators are not those Isaan people on their paid junket from up country.

They are being put in the firing line whilst the leadership has people poke at the army.

Sacrificial lambs and nothing more.

I just had a very articulate Thai women in my store who is very anti-Thaksin and has never had anything good to say about the redshirts. She feels that the protesters in Bangkok have conducted themselves so well this weekend that they are making a real case for themselves with Thais that were against them before.

Let us hope that no one has ruined all of that.

Agreed. If the reds go away from Bangkok, having caused inconvenience, but no real problems, they will look more like the poor Thai farmers that they profess to be, and they will have made a positive impact with the government and the Bangkok people.

Just keep their leaders away from them.

Someone is getting really desperate - this rally has to escalate, never mind the cost...!

Any means.... will be fine...never mind the cost of live's ... as we can see!

It's because of responses like Loaded's I hope the army have the sense to remain cool.

I didn't read Loaded's response.....but why should the army remain cool? I think this is the perfect opportunity for the army to show some spine and venture out. An army unit was just fired upon.....any other time or place, in any country, and the neighbourhood would have been locked down and the perps tracked down and killed. Justifiably so.

Imagine if a grenade had been fired into an Israeli barracks while Palestinians protested outside.

If the shooter was a Palestinian, sure, they'd go medieval on his etc.

But in situation where the protesters are Israeli, security forces are usually restrained (well, strike that if we're talking about Arab Israeli citizens, but that's a whole different issue).

Point is these are people of the same nation here, probably quite a few from the same provinces.

Your racial discrimination, or seeming condoning of it, is a whole diferent subject that should not divert from the thread.

My analogy was about enemies of the state that fire upon the army.

the only good thing i can think of this is the baht should get weaker? financial gurus r u out there?

The news article says an M79 grenade not 4. where does that 4 comes from??????????????????????? More Yellow shirt lies??????????

Wow...that's a little harsh. How about the red shirt lies then???

...In any large political group or cause, there are always a few "door knobs" (low intelligence/ hot heads) that think injurying/ killing someone is the only way to get even or attention; meanwhile it will give the peaceful demonstrators a bad name.

The problem is the perpertators are not those Isaan people on their paid junket from up country.

They are being put in the firing line whilst the leadership has people poke at the army.

Sacrificial lambs and nothing more.

Exactly right.

Even the British have been known to pretend to be the enemy and not so long ago as well:

"British special forces caught dressed as Arab 'terrorists'

British soldiers have been caught posing as Arabs and shooting Iraqis in the occupied city of Basra in southern Iraq. A group of them was caught yesterday by Iraqi police. They were driving an Iraqi car, wearing Arab clothing, and carrying weapons and explosives."

http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=1556

Looks like an Arab, smells like an Arab, talks like an Arab and behaves like the British Army.

Looks like a Red Shirt, drives like a Red Shirt, uses a weapon recently associated with Red Shirts - who knows for sure!

It's because of responses like Loaded's I hope the army have the sense to remain cool.

I didn't read Loaded's response.....but why should the army remain cool? I think this is the perfect opportunity for the army to show some spine and venture out. An army unit was just fired upon.....any other time or place, in any country, and the neighbourhood would have been locked down and the perps tracked down and killed. Justifiably so.

Imagine if a grenade had been fired into an Israeli barracks while Palestinians protested outside.

If the shooter was a Palestinian, sure, they'd go medieval on his etc.

But in situation where the protesters are Israeli, security forces are usually restrained (well, strike that if we're talking about Arab Israeli citizens, but that's a whole different issue).

Point is these are people of the same nation here, probably quite a few from the same provinces.

Your racial discrimination, or seeming condoning of it, is a whole diferent subject that should not divert from the thread.

My analogy was about enemies of the state that fire upon the army.

I think you misunderstood my meaning. Wasn't condoning this state of affairs, just telling it as it is.

What I'm saying is that citizens, even while rioting, do not automatically become "enemies of the state".

Rather doubt most of the people out there had any idea this was coming up and don't think they'd go for it if asked first.

Having the army go at them is foolishness.

Every grenade to date over the past few years has been fired at Thaksin's opponents not at his supporters. There have been a number of deaths and injuries to them. That is the only pattern we are sure of. Draw what conclusion you like from it.

Yes, I agree, this is the solid and unbroken pattern of 4 years.

Thanks for the succinct statement.

The news article says an M79 grenade not 4. where does that 4 comes from??????????????????????? More Yellow shirt lies??????????

Read post #28 from AFP

Some people may be aware that the US launched an open war against North Vietnam due to an 'incident' in the Gulf of Tonkin in August 1964. It was later revealed the 'incident' had been engineered by the Americans. It's possible, in a similar, vein, that what seems obvious, isn't obvious especially in a land of smoke and mirrors such as Thailand. Skepticism is healthy. Due to this incident, a 'power' in this large chess game may gain an advantage. However, without question you could just believe it's the red shirts. Up to you.

Wasn't it one of the main red leaders who stated that they wanted to turn Bangkok into a sea of fire over the weekend? Dig around in your history box all you want.

Thaksin said he wants to restore democracy. I said I was going to beat up Billy Smith when I was 7 after he had gone home. Rhetoric is just that.

Thaksin wants to restore Thaksin. Good that you are dismissing Red spokesman statements as so much playground bombast.

Even the British have been known to pretend to be the enemy and not so long ago as well:

"British special forces caught dressed as Arab 'terrorists'

British soldiers have been caught posing as Arabs and shooting Iraqis in the occupied city of Basra in southern Iraq. A group of them was caught yesterday by Iraqi police. They were driving an Iraqi car, wearing Arab clothing, and carrying weapons and explosives."

http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=1556

Looks like an Arab, smells like an Arab, talks like an Arab and behaves like the British Army.

Looks like a Red Shirt, drives like a Red Shirt, uses a weapon recently associated with Red Shirts - who knows for sure!

Putting asides the fact that that website seems to cater for tin-foil hatted conspiracy theorists. I really don't think that covert op's carried out by special forces in a warzone can be used as a comparison.

Thaksin wants to restore Thaksin. Good that you are dismissing Red spokesman statements as so much playground bombast.

I don't support Thaksin. I don't support Abhisit. I do support not being a lemming.

Hmmm crazy move

Totally insane. It doesn't fit in with anything that has happened this weekend, now does it?

They are losing. They didn't turn out. They are humiliated. They are FRUSTRATED and their face is badly damaged. This isn't crazy given the crowd we are dealing with (remember BLACK SONGKRAN), it is totally PREDICTABLE.

Also predictable, the pitiful red spin that is wasn't the reds who did this.

another stupid yellow tainted comment - bet u even wear yellow pyjamas to bed -- what benefit would the reds get from doing this as there will be lots of stupid people just like yourself who immediately assume - that they did it -- assume -- make an ass of yourself --- talk about tunnel vision -- and they have not lost anything - getting world attention right now - major headlines on the BBC

Don't these idiots realize that most of the soldiers are just poor kids from the sticks?

That's probably why they were targeted. We shouldn't immediately assume this was the work of Red Shirts.

Nice to see some people have theirs eyes open. Good post.

Thaksin would say beware some one using red shirt as a disguise could be tempted to act silly...

Don't these idiots realize that most of the soldiers are just poor kids from the sticks?

That's probably why they were targeted. We shouldn't immediately assume this was the work of Red Shirts.