What Do You Want Pm Abhisit To Do Now?

[animatic]

I see you two campers were up late.

Pub good analysis,

wait and see is a prudent Dem movepush the public's buttons is the Red's only strategy,

This of course leaving out the Thaksin need to not let the Dems shuffle the army their way.

If that happens it means more of his players are farther from control of elements he needs

to be in control of, if he comes back and makes a run at unapproved reinstatement.

[mdrichard]

- control current civil disorder the best way possible (minimal destruction and no deaths the objective)

- arrest red shirt leaders (specific charges communicated)

- dissolve parliament and announce new elections (clear criteria communicated before election)

- ask for help with the election, United Nations would be the best source (not peacekeepers just election observers)

Do all of this within a reasonable and communicated timeframe and then

- take a hard look at the constitution (revise within the law) (major focus on what is "conflict of interest" within the government)

- need to get rid of the "forever" politicians who are the root of keeping Thailand from being a real participant in the global economy. Thailand has talent but it's being consumed trying to keep afloat

within the country.

- change has got to come from the top down! Can't change the BIB (for example) if every position above operates outside the parameters of the law.

- promote, encourage and assist "free enterprise" beyond the street vendor.

[Mitker]

Clear the streets now. This is difficult to say given teenagers are among the Redshirt mob, that the Redshirts do have some valid socioeconomic grievances and given that I myself spent several years in the streets of Boston, New York and Washington getting CS gassed and clubbed in opposition to the Vietnam War. The people have the right to petition the government for redress of grievances but they do not have the right to try to destroy the country primarily in the interests and to the sole benefit of one single man who, when he did rule, proved to be an unashamed tyrant and open advocate of corruption as being in the nature of Thai culture. This is not a man to be a leader, nor is he to be emulated or accepted as the standard of national leadership in the name of democracy.

The Redshirts haven't anything to do with correcting a wrong policy decision, as in the case of the US government in Vietnam. The Redshirts rather want their peice of the proverbial pie while Thaksin wants control of the country to include the power to decide the size of the pie to the rural poor.

There isn't any sympathy for the Redshirts in Bangkok. I've been around Centerpoint since Sunday and all I see are Reds talking to Reds, Reds in pickups with other Reds, Reds cycling with Reds, Reds standing around with Reds, Reds eating with Reds, Reds sitting with Reds, Reds walking with Reds. I don't see any Bangkokians extending their hand (or even a finger) to welcome or support the Reds. Bangkokians are grossly inconvenienced, disrupted and economically harmed but rather adopt the mai pen rai attitude to let the Reds be. At this point in time, however, since the 2006 coup there isn't any support in the city for Thaksin or the Reds to grab onto in their attempts to topple the government. All Thaksin and the Reds can hope for now is a Red Coup which, while unlikely, is something we now seem to be hearing rumors about.

Stop it now. The failure to stop the Yellows at the airport by a Thaksin led proxy government has put the country in an endless spiral of public disorder to the point now of bordering on anarchy. The State of Emergency means nothing if it doesn't immediately settle the place down, to clearify to all of the society what happens when continuing and unrelenting disorder is bred and funded by a fugitive traitor from abroad.

Excellent analysis!

Agreed 100%.

[geriatrickid]

Publicus,so you got a haircut grew up and joined the establishment. You're just like the folks dancing around on the Lawrence Welk show aren't you? Yet you still cling to your view that your protests of the Vietnam conflict were justified but the grievances of the red Shirts are not. Unlike you at the time, the Red Shirts are living the poverty, the lack of opportunity, and the social obstacles every day. The Reds that you dismiss are the people that have the most at stake unlike you and all the other "feel good" folks of the hippie era. I wasn't around during the "glory days" of student activism, but it seems to me the Weather Underground, the student protestors and the others that chose to tune in and drop out really do not have much to show for all their efforts. It was the arch conservative Richard Nixon that gave the USA the EPA, and it was Nixon that shook hands with Mao (after the Canadian PM opened the door by being the first major western leader to go).

The reds have achieved something. They have made the establishment sit up and pay attention. It is always best to negotiate from a position of strength and that's what the reds have, despite the lack of support in Bangkok. Yes, the protests should stop. However, this is where you and I part ways. You advocate physical means and I advocate Abhisit stepping up to the plate and making a definitive statement to address the grievances. Abhisit could issue a 10 point plan listing the specific immediate responses to the grievances. He could reach out and say, ok, look it is impossible to have an election in 15 days and you know it. Work with me in a coalition and then we can have the election. The Reds would abandon Thaksin quickly if they could achieve social justice. A few redshirt leaders do not have absolute control over the hearts and minds of the red shirts. Abhisit will not reach across the divide because he is afraid of Prem, Prawit and others. And more importantly, as kind as he seems, he is part of the elite. He needs an incentive and this is what the protests can achieve. Fear can make some people rise to the challenge.

[Mitker]

But Thaksin understood the poor better than the other elite and military; whatever bad things he did, he understood the underlying needs of the poor much better than any other past government and one way or another he was able to make a bond with them.

Thaksin is gone and his powers are fading away but the needs of the poor masses are still there.

Abhisit has no feeling, no compassion, no "touch" with the poor masses and the elite and military might be able to control the poor a bit longer and keep Abhisit in the saddle but there will be a day that they will loose control and that won't be a very nice day.

I understand this point of view but for me it misses the main point:

Taksin never had any feeling or compassion for the poor.

He needed them. It's totally different and that's where the perversion lies.

He's just a plain calculator. He wanted power and did the math: achieving a broad support in the electoral process was much faster and cheaper (in terms of finances but also political program consistency) dealing with the rural masses than any other group in the Thai society. Once on the top, he would throw snacks in the countryside to distract the opinion from his corrupt practices (from Burmese satellite business to media control) and to maintain this popular support. His grip on power only got tighter each day he would stay on power. The continuous corrupting process on institutions (justice, police, medias...) seemed enless.

The only difference between him and a military junta is that the last says its name.

Abhisit might indeed be (still) out of touch with the masses but to my opinion he's been doing an excellent job at starting cleaning the house. He's basically someone with a sense of responsibility and that's the only relevant starting point. The Red (leaders) are all except that. I feel sorry for the folks in this red crowd who genuinely believe it's about them. No way, it's all just red carpetting for T.

Using them.

Ironically, a clean leader (like Abhisit might prove), may bring much more long term benefits to the poor than an oportunistic corrupt scavenger throwing coins in exchange for plundering freedom.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Mitker

[ChiangMaiFun]

Clear the streets now. This is difficult to say given teenagers are among the Redshirt mob, that the Redshirts do have some valid socioeconomic grievances and given that I myself spent several years in the streets of Boston, New York and Washington getting CS gassed and clubbed in opposition to the Vietnam War. The people have the right to petition the government for redress of grievances but they do not have the right to try to destroy the country primarily in the interests and to the sole benefit of one single man who, when he did rule, proved to be an unashamed tyrant and open advocate of corruption as being in the nature of Thai culture. This is not a man to be a leader, nor is he to be emulated or accepted as the standard of national leadership in the name of democracy.

The Redshirts haven't anything to do with correcting a wrong policy decision, as in the case of the US government in Vietnam. The Redshirts rather want their peice of the proverbial pie while Thaksin wants control of the country to include the power to decide the size of the pie to the rural poor.

There isn't any sympathy for the Redshirts in Bangkok. I've been around Centerpoint since Sunday and all I see are Reds talking to Reds, Reds in pickups with other Reds, Reds cycling with Reds, Reds standing around with Reds, Reds eating with Reds, Reds sitting with Reds, Reds walking with Reds. I don't see any Bangkokians extending their hand (or even a finger) to welcome or support the Reds. Bangkokians are grossly inconvenienced, disrupted and economically harmed but rather adopt the mai pen rai attitude to let the Reds be. At this point in time, however, since the 2006 coup there isn't any support in the city for Thaksin or the Reds to grab onto in their attempts to topple the government. All Thaksin and the Reds can hope for now is a Red Coup which, while unlikely, is something we now seem to be hearing rumors about.

Stop it now. The failure to stop the Yellows at the airport by a Thaksin led proxy government has put the country in an endless spiral of public disorder to the point now of bordering on anarchy. The State of Emergency means nothing if it doesn't immediately settle the place down, to clearify to all of the society what happens when continuing and unrelenting disorder is bred and funded by a fugitive traitor from abroad.

Excellent analysis!

Agreed 100%.

I believe the police/army would not act not that the government would not send them in

[rixalex]

"Too many people on this forum still hang on in the past, still talking about Thaksin; they forget the unrest and protests aren't about (exclusively) Thaksin anymore."

If the protests were about the poor, then the red leaders would be talking about policies to help the poor. The only policy that they have to "help" the poor, is to bring back Thaksin.

That is why many people on this forum are still talking about him. Currently, Thaksin is the main issue.

Most red supporters also look to the past to blame the coup junta. The keep bringing up the coup junta as blame for everything that they disagree with.

They blame the constitution of coup junta for the charges against Thaksin. They conveniently ignore that the charges against Thaksin were from the 1997 constitution.

They blame the constitution of coup junta for the PPP being disbanded. They conveniently ignore that many of the changes were to stop electoral corruption.

They blame the disbanding of the PPP by the courts on the coup junta. They conveniently ignore that the PPP executive were caught red handed committing electoral fraud.

They blame the coup junta for unfair elections. They conveniently ignore that most of the actions were to reduce electoral fraud and vote buying.

They blame the coup junta for intimidation during the elections. They conveniently ignore that in many red electorates that other parties could not campaign because of threats on their lives.

They say the disbanding of the PPP allowed the Democrats to come to power. They conveniently ignore that the PTP could have still formed a coalition government if they had the support of the smaller parties.

They blame the coup junta for the smaller parties changing the support from the Thaksin parties to the Democrats. They conveniently ignore that many of the smaller parties campaigned that they wouldn't support the PPP.

The say it was the coup junta that put Abhisit in as an unelected PM. They conveniently ignore that in a democracy, elected MPs vote for the PM.

The red supporters can not move forward and wait for elections in Dec 2011 when they are due, or even Dec 2010 when they have been offerred.

The red supporters want to go back to the past and bring back Thaksin.

Good summation Peter.

The last sentence is indeed the bottom line.

[ChiangMaiFun]

"Too many people on this forum still hang on in the past, still talking about Thaksin; they forget the unrest and protests aren't about (exclusively) Thaksin anymore."

If the protests were about the poor, then the red leaders would be talking about policies to help the poor. The only policy that they have to "help" the poor, is to bring back Thaksin.

That is why many people on this forum are still talking about him. Currently, Thaksin is the main issue.

Most red supporters also look to the past to blame the coup junta. The keep bringing up the coup junta as blame for everything that they disagree with.

They blame the constitution of coup junta for the charges against Thaksin. They conveniently ignore that the charges against Thaksin were from the 1997 constitution.

They blame the constitution of coup junta for the PPP being disbanded. They conveniently ignore that many of the changes were to stop electoral corruption.

They blame the disbanding of the PPP by the courts on the coup junta. They conveniently ignore that the PPP executive were caught red handed committing electoral fraud.

They blame the coup junta for unfair elections. They conveniently ignore that most of the actions were to reduce electoral fraud and vote buying.

They blame the coup junta for intimidation during the elections. They conveniently ignore that in many red electorates that other parties could not campaign because of threats on their lives.

They say the disbanding of the PPP allowed the Democrats to come to power. They conveniently ignore that the PTP could have still formed a coalition government if they had the support of the smaller parties.

They blame the coup junta for the smaller parties changing the support from the Thaksin parties to the Democrats. They conveniently ignore that many of the smaller parties campaigned that they wouldn't support the PPP.

The say it was the coup junta that put Abhisit in as an unelected PM. They conveniently ignore that in a democracy, elected MPs vote for the PM.

The red supporters can not move forward and wait for elections in Dec 2011 when they are due, or even Dec 2010 when they have been offerred.

The red supporters want to go back to the past and bring back Thaksin.

Good summation Peter.

The last sentence is indeed the bottom line.

issues far broader than Thaksin - don't fool yourself

[anotherpeter]

issues far broader than Thaksin - don't fool yourself

If you're talking about issues to do with the poor and democracy and corruption, then I'm not fooled.

If you're talking about issues that you can't really be talking about ... then unfortunately we can't talk about those.

But I don't see Thaksin as the answer to those issues either.

[LevelHead]

Abhisit's last role of the dice.

The SOE brought him 48 hours (and a few hours more on top maybe).

Failure to control it and end all demonstrations by Sunday will be a massive failure of his leadership and his coalition government.

If the Army and Police turn their backs on him and his "manipulated" coalition government then thats the end.

Extreme precedents and double standard application of the law is now common place - the system is collapsing because the system has been abused since the coup and everything that happened after the coup.

Resign Abhisit, save your face and get out quick, if you fight it you might win the battle but you will lose the war.

Edited April 9, 2010 by LevelHead

[way2muchcoffee]

issues far broader than Thaksin - don't fool yourself

But the solutions put forth by the redshirts all point to Thaksin. That is the problem.

Edited April 9, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[anotherpeter]

Abhisit's last role of the dice.

The SOE brought him 48 hours (and a few hours more on top maybe).

Failure to control it and end all demonstrations by Sunday will be a massive failure of his leadership and his coalition government.

If the Army and Police turn their backs on him and his "manipulated" coalition government then thats the end.

Extreme precedents and double standard application of the law is now common place - the system is collapsing because the system has been abused since the coup and everything that happened after the coup.

Resign Abhisit, save your face and get out quick, if you fight it you might win the battle but you will lose the war.

He's still in control. There is no violence. There are less protestors. And reports of the army moving out to set up check points.

[ChiangMaiFun]

issues far broader than Thaksin - don't fool yourself

If you're talking about issues to do with the poor and democracy and corruption, then I'm not fooled.

If you're talking about issues that you can't really be talking about ... then unfortunately we can't talk about those.

But I don't see Thaksin as the answer to those issues either.

nor do I peter... nor do I - I have stated before reds should sideline Thaksin - its not about him (well... it is... too much about him but shouldn't be - if you see what I mean).

[LevelHead]

Abhisit's last role of the dice.

The SOE brought him 48 hours (and a few hours more on top maybe).

Failure to control it and end all demonstrations by Sunday will be a massive failure of his leadership and his coalition government.

If the Army and Police turn their backs on him and his "manipulated" coalition government then thats the end.

Extreme precedents and double standard application of the law is now common place - the system is collapsing because the system has been abused since the coup and everything that happened after the coup.

Resign Abhisit, save your face and get out quick, if you fight it you might win the battle but you will lose the war.

He's still in control. There is no violence. There are less protestors. And reports of the army moving out to set up check points.

He is not in control !!!!!

There are assemblies of people. Protest marches.

Those are all not allowed under the SOE.

So he is not in control, at all, in any way.

[4223rhodes]

I don't think it is accurate to describe Abhisit as being in control or out of control at the present moment. He is probably lunching at the Infantry with his guardians and reading over the script they've given him to read later this evening.

[Insight]

Abhisit's last role of the dice.

The SOE brought him 48 hours (and a few hours more on top maybe).

Failure to control it and end all demonstrations by Sunday will be a massive failure of his leadership and his coalition government.

If the Army and Police turn their backs on him and his "manipulated" coalition government then thats the end.

Extreme precedents and double standard application of the law is now common place - the system is collapsing because the system has been abused since the coup and everything that happened after the coup.

Resign Abhisit, save your face and get out quick, if you fight it you might win the battle but you will lose the war.

He's still in control. There is no violence. There are less protestors. And reports of the army moving out to set up check points.

So pretty much red shirts' last roll of the dice.

Last roll of the dice for all sides, we can hope.

[Insight]

He is not in control !!!!!

There are assemblies of people. Protest marches.

Those are all not allowed under the SOE.

So he is not in control, at all, in any way.

If avoiding bloodshed is the aim then he is very much in control. My guess is the red shirt leaders very much expected this to be over by now.

If the reds start blocking high-traffic routes like Victory Monument today it will back fire on them from.

[MikeyIdea]

Back to the original question of the OP - What Do You Want Pm Abhisit To Do Now?

He should ignore the reds. Let them do what they want to do, what they do, after it has been going on for a longer period of time, will only work against them

It is not the PM that is running out of time, it is the reds.

[rogerdee123]

Back to the original question of the OP - What Do You Want Pm Abhisit To Do Now?

He should ignore the reds. Let them do what they want to do, what they do, after it has been going on for a longer period of time, will only work against them

It is not the PM that is running out of time, it is the reds.

Although I may agree with you his political coalition was going to oust him if he didn't act ... thus the SOE.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Abhisit's last role of the dice.

The SOE brought him 48 hours (and a few hours more on top maybe).

Failure to control it and end all demonstrations by Sunday will be a massive failure of his leadership and his coalition government.

If the Army and Police turn their backs on him and his "manipulated" coalition government then thats the end.

Extreme precedents and double standard application of the law is now common place - the system is collapsing because the system has been abused since the coup and everything that happened after the coup.

Resign Abhisit, save your face and get out quick, if you fight it you might win the battle but you will lose the war.

He's still in control. There is no violence. There are less protestors. And reports of the army moving out to set up check points.

He is not in control !!!!!

There are assemblies of people. Protest marches.

Those are all not allowed under the SOE.

So he is not in control, at all, in any way.

of course he's not - he issues these directives then doesn't follow through

[animatic]

Attacking Thaicom is an act they won't allow,

reading the latest announcements,

this seems to be the long expected line in the sand.

Attempting to prevent bloodshed by a national leader is highly laudable.

But with this group clearly determined to make a big mess and bring down the government,

the line MUST ve drawn and law and order imposed at some point,

no matter WHAT wishes for peacefulness exist.

Geriatrickid has accused "many anti-Red" of being for a war in the streets,

maybe that suits his philosophical agenda, but hardly reflects the preponderance

of those seeking law and order, vs ongoing public chaos true feelings.

No one wants a war in the streets, except those visibly and actively trying to START ONE

because they can't bring down the government any other possible way.

Noting still the

2 to 1 ratio + or - of 'forced dissolution' vs 'Law and Order supporting action'

Seems a good number here see this as opening an endless cycle of actions, if it isn't stopped.

And the wait and see group is dwindling a bit... Not that wait and see is not aggress

or passive aggressive depending on where in that spectrum you sit..

Edited April 9, 2010 by animatic

[grahamhc]

Wait until next week and they could use water cannon to dispurse them and say it is just "Songkran Fun" (but not as violent at Pattaya Songkran)

At the end of the day, we are guests here, no matter how long we have been here, so I just keep my head down. I do not now discuss politics with my Thai Friends, as they knew my views before all this started out,

[steven100]

Bring out the tanks !

Once tanks start rolling into the crowds of red shirts they will soon disperse !

Then get the water cannons out and give them an early Songkran !

Have the tanks fire a few over head warning shots !! that'll surely work !

And of coarse , find the leaders and put em' in jail.

[anotherpeter]

Bring out the tanks !

Once tanks start rolling into the crowds of red shirts they will soon disperse !

Then get the water cannons out and give them an early Songkran !

Have the tanks fire a few over head warning shots !! that'll surely work !

And of coarse , find the leaders and put em' in jail.

Keep the tanks in their boxes. No need for death and destruction.

[yoshiwara]

Back to the original question of the OP - What Do You Want Pm Abhisit To Do Now?

He should ignore the reds. Let them do what they want to do, what they do, after it has been going on for a longer period of time, will only work against them

It is not the PM that is running out of time, it is the reds.

The key thrust here is correct.

The government is playing 'rope-a-dope' with the Thaksin forces.

The reds are seemingly not happy about this.

But hey its almost a salaried job by now.

Why not keep it going?

[lannarebirth]

Whatever happens I'm glad that things have moved away from the city center where flights to safety are limited. Lots of side roads to take to escape conflict out in the 'burbs.

[yoshiwara]

Bring out the tanks !

Once tanks start rolling into the crowds of red shirts they will soon disperse !

Then get the water cannons out and give them an early Songkran !

Have the tanks fire a few over head warning shots !! that'll surely work !

And of coarse , find the leaders and put em' in jail.

This is the red fantasy pushed out by a Thaksin apologist.

The red cheerleaders are, of course 'coarse'

What they really, really want is to have Thaksin's relatives at the head of the army.

Then the tanks would be theirs.

That is their real complaint about the army.

Thaksin is not the commander in chief.

[Mitker]

Abhisit's last role of the dice.

The SOE brought him 48 hours (and a few hours more on top maybe).

Failure to control it and end all demonstrations by Sunday will be a massive failure of his leadership and his coalition government.

If the Army and Police turn their backs on him and his "manipulated" coalition government then thats the end.

Extreme precedents and double standard application of the law is now common place - the system is collapsing because the system has been abused since the coup and everything that happened after the coup.

Resign Abhisit, save your face and get out quick, if you fight it you might win the battle but you will lose the war.

Pravda talking.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Mitker

[steve C]

Maybe they the red shirts will all go home to their villages for songkran throw some water get on the drink, forget what it was all about MMMmmmm

[grahamhc]

I don't support either side, but I want Thaivisa to find other sources for news other than the Nation.

How can the signal for PTV have been cut if it is clearly up and running at this moment???

TV is linked to Nation, so cannot use other publications as their main feed.

Yesterday, changed to Pattaya Sophon Channel 4 to check and find that they are still broadcasting, but from an internet feed of http://www.powerdmc.org/.

Looks like a camera watching the screen and re-broadcasting it. Maybe via Internet or via their satellite array on their offices. Sophon is owned by high powered (in Chonburi region) Thaksin supporters