Bangkok: 10+ Dead, Hundreds Hurt In Bangkok Clashes

[manarak]

Just saw thaifaq's three videos on youtube.

He captured on camera the moment when the gunfire erupted.

At that time both the soldiers and the reds were relaxed.

It looks like the gunfire targeted the reds, from the noise made it could have been just one one or two guns at the beginning.

Then more gunfire began, as well as grenades being thrown, probably by the reds at the army.

The army almost immediately retreated and abandoned APVs and everything on the spot.

This didn't look like a planned move, and makes me say that most probably the army didn't begin the gunfight.

It would be interesting to know who did?

Judging from the noise made, probably not more than 2 or 3 people with guns, not even automatic ones.

[bkkjames]

That is hands down the best question of the day!

Well you can take out people quite easily from the high ground w/obviously no threat. Cause mass confusion and disorganization among red protesters. It's actually quite an effective tactic with urban combat. I think the army didnt expect the results to go the way they did last night if the truth be told.

I would say the army had nothing to gain from that.

This is what madi can't grasp. What would the military gain from having everyone videoing them doing as he suggests? Perhaps they overlooked this small fact.

[KhaoNiaw]

still haven't found a video with roof snipers on it.

can anyone provide a link please?

On this video, you can't see rooftop snipers but if you watch from about 3.40, the people interviewed saw a shooter(s) that were on the roof and they have no idea which side they were meant to be on.

Edited April 11, 2010 by KhaoNiaw

[hpl]

I would like to apologize on behalf of various threads on Thai Visa that appeared to imply that the Thai military and police had made considerable progress during their encounters with the reds yesterday and had demonstrated that they were taking control of the situation in a steady and restrained manner as possible under the trying circumstances.

it appears, according to the international media, that in fact their intervention was a complete farce. The violence only ended when the troops and police retreated leaving behind their military vehicles in many cases.

Well said

One more time. How do you know the snipers are from the army???

Red Shirt lunatic Sae Daeng is proud of his Ronin snipers.

[CosmicSurfer]

Now, 2) Did "Thaksin clearly improved the living conditions of the often forgotten people living up-country"? Yes, and it is indeed impossible to refute. And i think the BIG mistake of the current government has been to don't do for these people the same help than Thaksin did. If they were using the 43 billion baths they take from Thaksin wealth to help the poor people, that would be smart.

I refute this statement... Show me how he in actual fact improved their lives... And I'm not talking about BS programs like OTOP, and a Free cow that was actually a loan they had to pay back, Or a loan to their village?

How did he improve Education? Transportation? Communications and real life Infrastructure? How many corrupt police and government officials did he throw into jail? Where is the government oversight and regulations on clean food, real health care and safety? How has OTOP contributed to international trade? How about the Airport that was built on a swamp? Without proper access and infrastructure, not to mention leaky Roofs and a developing drainage problem... Which brings up Flooding, Agricultural diversification and did I mention EDUCATION????

No amount of Hocus Pocus can create an educated and advancing society without an educated base that can implement your goals.

But education means a "Thinking" populace that can see through populace tricks and soon starts to demand real Change...

Too bad the Reds are so hoodwinked by superstition and Hocus Pocus.. some (Many) of their demands are actually legitimate.. too bad they lose all credibility and legitimacy by allowing themselves to be manipulated by true thieves and power hungry fools.

CS

[madi]

That is hands down the best question of the day!

Well you can take out people quite easily from the high ground w/obviously no threat. Cause mass confusion and disorganization among red protesters. It's actually quite an effective tactic with urban combat. I think the army didnt expect the results to go the way they did last night if the truth be told.

I would say the army had nothing to gain from that.

This is what madi can't grasp. What would the military gain from having everyone videoing them doing as he suggests? Perhaps they overlooked this small fact.

So you want to say that the Reds were able to shoot over 800 people in less than one minute with automatic rifle fire and escape all capture? They shot their own people?

That is a crazy theory but I like it.

Why is it you find it hard to believe?

The Thai regimes have done this many many times in the past. Look up the early 1990s and see how many they killed in Bangkok.

You think a group that has done over 20 coups is against the use of violence on their own people?

NO

You know they did it.

Maybe you do not care but you know they did it.

Tell the truth.

[DagonKhan]

I have a question: how long would the present government have until it next needs to hold an election?

[britmaveric]

^end of 2011

[madi]

OT a little. Please forgive this one.

Oh yeah

Thank You Thai Visa and Brave Thai peoploe for allowing an open conversation here.

Thank You moderators all and the owners of Thaivisa.

This is the best source for Farangs and all foreigners and Thais to get information.

Your immigration stuff is fantastic here.

Sorry about off topic stuff here but most all foreigners here do appreciate this site very much.

Thank You Thai lawyers here who help us all.

[KhaoNiaw]

Now, 2) Did "Thaksin clearly improved the living conditions of the often forgotten people living up-country"? Yes, and it is indeed impossible to refute. And i think the BIG mistake of the current government has been to don't do for these people the same help than Thaksin did. If they were using the 43 billion baths they take from Thaksin wealth to help the poor people, that would be smart.

I refute this statement... Show me how he in actual fact improved their lives... And I'm not talking about BS programs like OTOP, and a Free cow that was actually a loan they had to pay back, Or a loan to their village?

How did he improve Education? Transportation? Communications and real life Infrastructure? How many corrupt police and government officials did he throw into jail? Where is the government oversight and regulations on clean food, real health care and safety? How has OTOP contributed to international trade? How about the Airport that was built on a swamp? Without proper access and infrastructure, not to mention leaky Roofs and a developing drainage problem... Which brings up Flooding, Agricultural diversification and did I mention EDUCATION????

No amount of Hocus Pocus can create an educated and advancing society without an educated base that can implement your goals.

But education means a "Thinking" populace that can see through populace tricks and soon starts to demand real Change...

Too bad the Reds are so hoodwinked by superstition and Hocus Pocus.. some (Many) of their demands are actually legitimate.. too bad they lose all credibility and legitimacy by allowing themselves to be manipulated by true thieves and power hungry fools.

CS

Also, a lot of Thaksin's programs put a lot of power, and especially money, into the hands of the village elites. You stay in the villages for a while and it won't take you long to work out which families form the local elite. They've just been building a new house, they're the local money lenders, probably the puuyaibaan, the kaman or other local officials - and when villagers default they take their land. They're not Chinese and they're not part of the Bangkok elite. They're local people who rip off other locals, and Thaksin's projects often gave them more opportunities to do so. You'll probably find that they're the organizers for the local Reds as well.

[humfurry]

Civilian snipers shooting in Bangkok on April 9, 21010:

--

Maestro

Were 800 of them shot in lass than 1 minute?

HAAAAA HAAAA

That is what happened at the last one we see on video clips.

For the love of god, please drop that weird "HAAAAA HAAAA" business, it's seriously creeping me out!

Any idea how many people can get hurt by explosives like the grenades that were fired, hurled towards the armed forces? Or are you suggesting that the soldiers burned, shot and blew up themselves?

Btw, I do know some did manage to gas themselves, so you can keep that one!

Look at the video and that will REALLY creep you out.

Your post creeped my out.

HAAAAA HAAAAA

800 shot in less than 45 seconds.

Thai military did it.

The world knows and the Thai people do too.

It is not as if the Thai regime has not done this sort of thing before is it.

The 1990s early say the same kind of thing by the regime.

No way those were live rounds. If they had been the panic in the crowd would have been telling. I doubt that you've ever been shot at. But 800 live rounds into that crowd with an M16 would have produced no less than 50 to 100 deaths. I suggest they were rubber bullets fired from no less than a few hundred troops. I see no casualties in that video. I see no panicked crowd. To be honest I don't hear 800 rounds fired in that video. What I did see in longer versions of that vid were Molotov Cocktails thrown at your assumed villains. Again this would not happen if they were firing live rounds. You should really think before you type.

Edited April 11, 2010 by humfurry

[DagonKhan]

^end of 2011

Thank you.

I don't understand why the present government wouldn't entertain the idea of dissolution in their negotiations a few days ago. If they did, isn't it possible that they would catch the reds completely off guard and potentially deny them the opportunity to gather enough candidates, get organised etc. in time for an election?

[lannarebirth]

Now, 2) Did "Thaksin clearly improved the living conditions of the often forgotten people living up-country"? Yes, and it is indeed impossible to refute. And i think the BIG mistake of the current government has been to don't do for these people the same help than Thaksin did. If they were using the 43 billion baths they take from Thaksin wealth to help the poor people, that would be smart.

I refute this statement... Show me how he in actual fact improved their lives... And I'm not talking about BS programs like OTOP, and a Free cow that was actually a loan they had to pay back, Or a loan to their village?

How did he improve Education? Transportation? Communications and real life Infrastructure? How many corrupt police and government officials did he throw into jail? Where is the government oversight and regulations on clean food, real health care and safety? How has OTOP contributed to international trade? How about the Airport that was built on a swamp? Without proper access and infrastructure, not to mention leaky Roofs and a developing drainage problem... Which brings up Flooding, Agricultural diversification and did I mention EDUCATION????

No amount of Hocus Pocus can create an educated and advancing society without an educated base that can implement your goals.

But education means a "Thinking" populace that can see through populace tricks and soon starts to demand real Change...

Too bad the Reds are so hoodwinked by superstition and Hocus Pocus.. some (Many) of their demands are actually legitimate.. too bad they lose all credibility and legitimacy by allowing themselves to be manipulated by true thieves and power hungry fools.

CS

Also, a lot of Thaksin's programs put a lot of power, and especially money, into the hands of the village elites. You stay in the villages for a while and it won't take you long to work out which families form the local elite. They've just been building a new house, they're the local money lenders, probably the puuyaibaan, the kaman or other local officials - and when villagers default they take their land. They're not Chinese and they're not part of the Bangkok elite. They're local people who rip off other locals, and Thaksin's projects often gave them more opportunities to do so. You'll probably find that they're the organizers for the local Reds as well.

My wife owns land in two northern villages and what you've stated is EXACTLY how things work there. Greedy moneylenders, rice millers, corrupt cops, excavation, dirt hauling and public works contractors, shopkeepers who sell rancid food, song taew mafia opposed to improved mass transit schemes, those are the chief organizers.

Edited April 11, 2010 by lannarebirth

[animatic]

Well you can take out people quite easily from the high ground w/obviously no threat. Cause mass confusion and disorganization among red protesters. It's actually quite an effective tactic with urban combat. I think the army didnt expect the results to go the way they did last night if the truth be told.

I would say the army had nothing to gain from that.

This is what madi can't grasp. What would the military gain from having everyone videoing them doing as he suggests? Perhaps they overlooked this small fact.

So you want to say that the Reds were able to shoot over 800 people in less than one minute with automatic rifle fire and escape all capture? They shot their own people?

That is a crazy theory but I like it.

Why is it you find it hard to believe?

The Thai regimes have done this many many times in the past. Look up the early 1990s and see how many they killed in Bangkok.

You think a group that has done over 20 coups is against the use of violence on their own people?

NO

You know they did it.

Maybe you do not care but you know they did it.

Tell the truth.

Where in heavens name do you get this:

"able to shoot over 800 people in less than one minute with automatic rifle fire"

Where to start:

800 is all people injured on all sides.

800 includes people who were shot, and many more who were not.

Fell down, knocked down, clubbed, hit with moving; vehicles, barriers, bottles, cans, rocks.

nearly a full day of multiple riot scenes.... 800 in a minute not hardly.

We did see much firing from troupes.

But obviously with rubber bullets, because at that range scores to hundreds

would have been down and dieing, that is not seen. Nor is there the amount of blood loss

to back up those kid of numbers.

Really try and think with some logic about this.

Now, some extrapolation:

But one clip of automatic rifle fire from a roof top into the red lines,

would cause a stampede towards the army lines. As we saw likely happening last night.

And THAT is exactly the kind of out of control crowd control scene Thaksins fighters need to show.

Also same snipers targeting officers on the army side could cause increased panic and ineffectiveness.

and is a tried and true military tactic. Officers in Battle remove their insignia that can be recognized from long distances.

In this case I suspect they didn't expect army style snippers.

And then tomorrow they will parade 13 bodies tomorrow across the city and 'Make Abhisit see"

A demented psychological statement and power manipulation tactic. Truely sickening, but it will work.

This is war using a front of group psychosis, masquerading as a democracy movement.

This shows you that those willing to NOT have compunctions CAN take the day against those,

who still live within a world of moral fiber, and not relative absolutes of win or lose fervor.

This is far from over.

Edited April 11, 2010 by animatic

[manarak]

But one clip of automatic rifle fire from a roof top into the red lines,

it was not automatic fire - can be clearly heard in thaifaq's video

no stampede either. it looked more like an assault.

and the army almost immediately retreated.

Edited April 11, 2010 by manarak

[way2muchcoffee]

So you want to say that the Reds were able to shoot over 800 people in less than one minute with automatic rifle fire and escape all capture? They shot their own people?

That is a crazy theory but I like it.

Why is it you find it hard to believe?

The Thai regimes have done this many many times in the past. Look up the early 1990s and see how many they killed in Bangkok.

You think a group that has done over 20 coups is against the use of violence on their own people?

NO

You know they did it.

Maybe you do not care but you know they did it.

Tell the truth.

Killed: 21

Security Forces: 5

Red Shirts: 15 (maybe a little less)

Civilians: 1 (maybe a little more)

Injured: 842

Security Forces: 273

Red Shirts/Civilians: 569 (no breakdown given)

Those numbers were given in one article and then later the number of injured was increased by 16 for a total of 858, but the breakdown wasn't reported.

Madi, you have repeatedly asserted that the military injured 800 people. Please check your numbers.

Edited April 11, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[deejay01]

People shouldn't underestimate the power of disinformation.

The disinformation which hurt the most the Red Shirt is about the allegations of corruption of Thaksin.

He is labelled as "Corrupted" so instantly relegated as the bad guy.

But as everything else, corruption is quantifiable.

People usually watch the superficial, official story and make up their mind with that. Corrupted=Bad.

The truth is much more subtle and complex than that.

The above is a total load of rubbish with no structure or credibility whatever. Nice attempt to make some people confused but it doesn't work. Corruption is coruup[tion is corruption! Please explain how it's more subtle. I say again, corruption is corruption, no matter how you try to spin it, corruption is corruption.

Just like the Temasek-Shin Corp deal. People think Thaksin evaded taxes illegally. It is false. The deal was legal. Where he did wrong was that he used his power and political influence to bend the law to allow a foreign company to own a telecommunication company of Thailand, which was impossible before.

So you admit that he abused his power and railroaded deliberste and deep changes in legislation (the investment laws of Thailand) to massively benefit himself and his family for one transaction. How can you on one hand say he abused his power and immediately say it is false that he evaded taxes. You can fool some people with clever word construcytion some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

The other corruption accusations.. his wife buying from the IFDF, the appointment of relatives to key positions, etc. Those are relatively bad, but also relatively harmless.

So your saying that breaking the law / displaying disgraceful ethics is OK if it's just small. But the reality is that it wasn't small, the transcation was something like 700Million Baht. Is that small? Absolutely NO.

And overriding any of this specific discussion is that the citizens of any country have a right to expect theat their PM is the doyen of ethics, the ultimate example of good ethics.

Will you say it's OK if a drunk driver hits your car, injures one of your children, traunatizes the child but never mind because the child only had to stay in hospital for one week? I certainly hope not. /i]

Someone overly by the book could argue that no corruption at all should be tolerated in any circumstances, but it wouldn't fit in the real world as corruption is practically everywhere, including in the West. We could argue that the US Republicans were infinitely more corrupted than Thaksin and that caused wars but thats another story.

So because there is corruption in politics in the US (by the way, there are other countries in the world other than the US), then corruption is OK. This is precicely the attituide that needs to be killed in Thailand, othewrwise corruption will never go down at all.

This story of corruption was tightly knit by his opponents. This is simply politic warfare, nothing less.

What do you mean by 'tight knit'? ?There are in fact many threads on many webboards and in many other journals listing thaksins corruption - you seem to be suggesting that listing his corrupt activities is somehow nasty. Perhaps you'd like to share your rational for this.

The fact is, Thaksin clearly improved the living conditions of the often forgotten people living up-country. That is impossible to refute.

Yes it is possible to refute, and to refute strongly. Many families ended up in much deeper debt for just one one example. There is one positive in the 30Baht health scheme but let's be honest - the quality of care is less than at benachmark levels. The quality of education is still the same (poor) quality it was 20 yers ago.

His opponents were mainly middle-class from Bangkok, who felt left-out with "region-oriented" policies of Thaksin.

This comment has no basis whatever either in fact or in an anecdotal basis, and is nothing more than tour attempt at clever spin. Perhaps you'd like to share some rational for your comment.

Let's be frank here, Thaksin was a successful and ambitious man. Like many men in his position, he misused and abused his power.

Well let's analyze that:

- Successful - Yes, but let's also please remember that he had what you could call a telephone monopoly given to him on a platter (and by a senior leader of the 1992 coup which had no hesitation to shoot civilians on sight), plus whilst he had a monopoly he charged exorbetant rates for the telephone services, including the Essan poor.

- You simply cannot say that because other people have abused their power or been involved in corruption it is therefore OK. Thaksin and all other Thai politicians (over many decades) knew that getting into corruption has risk, part of that risk is that you just might be the person who get's caught by some unknown factor or gets acught because of a sudden change in public attitudes etc. If the axe happens to land on you, then that's the way the cookie crumbles, nothing more and nothing less.

But perhaps your suggesting that because others have never been caught then it's not fair for thaksin to be caught/punished. Well let's analyze that, this would be saying that because some murderers have never been caught then it's unfair for any murders to be caught and/or punished. A quick way to a totally lawless society

But he's not worst than the others. He's not worst than the current prime minister, Abhisit Vejajiva who cunningly found his way to the top. Abhisit was also charged for a lot of corruption cases (bribes, inflated prices, conflit of interests and shuch) ,

So you make some strong accusations againt PM Abhsit, perhaps you'd like to share some actual and specific details of: his corruption and specific details of charges laid against him, conflict of interest etc etc.

You say 'cunningly found hisway to the top'. It has been explained again and again (but is guess you don't accept the established laws of Thailand(laws which are commoin to many coutries) since they simply don't suit your attitudes.

You say "He is still under investigations for other cases of corruption." Perhaps, again, you'd like to share some specif case details to support your claim.

Let's not forget that Thaksin got ousted by the military, which is highly undemocratic.

The Commander-in-Chief at the time of the coup d'état was openly opposed to Thaksin (because Thaksin appointed relatives in the Army) and it explain why the coup happened.

No it doesn't explain why the coup happened - the coup leaders have explained many times they saw it as their duty to stop a highly corupt man who was out of control and was stronly abusing his power (and I wonder whether your suggestiong that massive and open nepotism is Ok, even when one relative was jumped 5 ranks, and even when numerous relatives are placed in important and powerful positions and they have no capability or previous experience to fulfill the roles? And this is a man who had no hesitation to supervise the murder of 2.500 fellow Thais without recourse to justice. Thaksin says (and you say) a coup is undemocratic - well thaksin is on record as saying that 'democracy is not important for Thailand' / 'democracy is not my aim', etc. etc. Plus he intimidated the judiary, the elctoral commission, the revenue department and more - but he now claims he's the champion of democracy. Sorry, but you can't it both ways.

Thaksin now says he totally opposes coups and he wants the clock turned back to before the 2006 coup. Well if thaksin has strong beliefs on this point then he should also be saying that Thailand (and the people occupying the government seats) should be turned back to before the first ever coup.

Let's also not forget that Abhisit party got less seats than the UDD supported Pheu Thai Party and only got power because of a coalition of 5 parties.

Thats' the way the process works and it's like that (and in reality the system works) in many countires in the world. It's within the deliberately written electoral laws of Thailand constructed decades ago.

How would you feel if the party who helped you get out of poverty, helped you to get better access to health care won the elections but didn't govern ?

'Get out of poverty'? I ask you to provide some facts / data about how many families in Essan are now out of poverty.

'Better access to health care' - a positive, but don't forget, it was massively under resourced and the quality less than wonderful.

'won the elections but didn't govern'. 'won' is a totally wrong word and unruthful word, 'bought' elections is an appropriate terminology and there's plenty of evidence of this.

If thaksin was seriously and sincerely wanting to improve life for the rural poor then he had many years to make strong and deep changes to policies, infratrucure, education, opportunity, policies to ensure a better sharing of the common wealth of Thailand. He did none of this, nothing. He gave the rural poor hands out - he bought and manipulated them with another bag of rice just at the right time, a few telephone cards just at the right time, nothing more.

I can certainly agree that the rural poor would be disillusioned by all of this, but who deliberately created their false hopes. who tricked them? The answer - thaksin and his ilk in the TRT / PPP parties.

The bottom line of all of that is very simple - they have a right to feel disillusioned and angry but they should aim their anger at the right people - thaksin, TRT, PPP, and their local poo yai in cahoots with the TRT and PPP, and the UDD.

I been typing for over 1 hour to refute all your own refutation but accidentally lost it by opening a new page on that same page.

It's too bad because you could have re-refute all my own re-refutation and so on for a long time I guess and it would have been enjoyable.

But I'm pretty much dishearten about this, I give up, you are right, you are the smartest of all humans and most likely you are more handsome than me.

*sighs* ...

[CosmicSurfer]

Civilian snipers shooting in Bangkok on April 9, 21010:

--

Maestro

Were 800 of them shot in lass than 1 minute?

HAAAAA HAAAA

That is what happened at the last one we see on video clips.

Look at the video and that will REALLY creep you out.

Your post creeped my out.

HAAAAA HAAAAA

800 shot in less than 45 seconds.

Thai military did it.

The world knows and the Thai people do too.

It is not as if the Thai regime has not done this sort of thing before is it.

The 1990s early say the same kind of thing by the regime.

No way those were live rounds. If they had been the panic in the crowd would have been telling. I doubt that you've ever been shot at. But 800 live rounds into that crowd with an M16 would have produced no less than 50 to 100 deaths. I suggest they were rubber bullets fired from no less than a few hundred troops. I see no casualties in that video. I see no panicked crowd. To be honest I don't hear 800 rounds fired in that video. What I did see in longer versions of that vid were Molotov Cocktails thrown at your assumed villains. Again this would not happen if they were firing live rounds. You should really think before you type.

No way those guys are even Military... One idiot is wearing a light gray sweatshirt with a WHITE hat... He's even sitting with his shield turned in facing his friends and with his back open to the demonstrators. Those shields were most probably stolen from the retreating forces previously,... It's obvious watching those buffoons that they had little or no training at what they were doing! Also the Muzzle flash is from a shotgun, Not an automatic weapon.

CS

[manarak]

The "situation" clearly benefits the reds.

I'd bet it was caused either by:

- out of control yellows who shot from windows or roof of a building

OR

- sae daeng's red ronins themselves

it wasn't even clear if someone was hurt by the initial shots?

[generalgrant]

Sometimes one must remove one's self from a situation to understand it.

Pretend all you out there that This all happened in America.

Americans were in the street. The American military fired at American protesters.

Over 800 dead and injured was reported by the American Government.

How many of you other than Yellow Thais, would even think of defending that American government? None

Europeans would be calling the standing American government Nazis.

(And Europe knows a Nazi when they see one)

At the same time, American main stream media TV was being censure.

At the same time--sites called American visa were being controlled.

Would any of you here be defending the American government?

NO

So why defend the Thai government now?

[TheOldWolf]

Sometimes one must remove one's self from a situation to understand it.

Pretend all you out there that This all happened in America.

Americans were in the street. The American military fired at American protesters.

Over 800 dead and injured was reported by the American Government.

How many of you other than Yellow Thais, would even think of defending that American government? None

Europeans would be calling the standing American government Nazis.

(And Europe knows a Nazi when they see one)

At the same time, American main stream media TV was being censure.

At the same time--sites called American visa were being controlled.

Would any of you here be defending the American government?

NO

So why defend the Thai government now?

This would never happen in USA. The protesters would have an area they could use, appointed by the police and thye would have been stopped before they could leave it by the riot police. But, if a mob was running loose like this one in thailand it would have been force and I don´t think US gverment would care one minute what the rest of the world was thin king.

[Jingthing]

Even more so. The first time any protest movement tried to confront a US military base (the red shirt violent insurgents did this MANY times before Abhisit finally acted) the entire group would be labeled TERRORISTS and their leaders would be down at Gitmo in hoods quicker than a New York minute. Also if they had advance info (as Thailand did with the red shirts) that a group was invading Washington with the intent to overthrow the government by any means necessary (including "only" destroying commerce in the city indefinitely , the group would have never made it anywhere near the city. They would have been stopped are turned back and/or arrested way before that. Americans know I speak the truth. Don't even get me started about what would happen to a US congressman who threatened to derail a mass transit train.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Jingthing

[generalgrant]

Sometimes one must remove one's self from a situation to understand it.

Pretend all you out there that This all happened in America.

Americans were in the street. The American military fired at American protesters.

Over 800 dead and injured was reported by the American Government.

How many of you other than Yellow Thais, would even think of defending that American government? None

Europeans would be calling the standing American government Nazis.

(And Europe knows a Nazi when they see one)

At the same time, American main stream media TV was being censure.

At the same time--sites called American visa were being controlled.

Would any of you here be defending the American government?

NO

So why defend the Thai government now?

This would never happen in USA. The protesters would have an area they could use, appointed by the police and thye would have been stopped before they could leave it by the riot police. But, if a mob was running loose like this one in thailand it would have been force and I don´t think US gverment would care one minute what the rest of the world was thin king.

You never heard of civil rights walks in Montgomery?

The walked the streets and were water cannoned by white wing police. BUT--they were not shot in huge numbers by the US army.

I am not picking on Thais or Thailand. What is happening here could happen anywhere.

We have two sides that do not agree.

When no compramise can be reached, a fight occurs.

Shooting into a crowd even with rubber bullits and injuring over 800 cannot be a good thing for public opinion of this current government.

The people in Issan hate the current government.

A House Divided Cannot Stand

Abe Lincoln

[scorecard]

Now, 2) Did "Thaksin clearly improved the living conditions of the often forgotten people living up-country"? Yes, and it is indeed impossible to refute. And i think the BIG mistake of the current government has been to don't do for these people the same help than Thaksin did. If they were using the 43 billion baths they take from Thaksin wealth to help the poor people, that would be smart.

I refute this statement... Show me how he in actual fact improved their lives... And I'm not talking about BS programs like OTOP, and a Free cow that was actually a loan they had to pay back, Or a loan to their village?

How did he improve Education? Transportation? Communications and real life Infrastructure? How many corrupt police and government officials did he throw into jail? Where is the government oversight and regulations on clean food, real health care and safety? How has OTOP contributed to international trade? How about the Airport that was built on a swamp? Without proper access and infrastructure, not to mention leaky Roofs and a developing drainage problem... Which brings up Flooding, Agricultural diversification and did I mention EDUCATION????

No amount of Hocus Pocus can create an educated and advancing society without an educated base that can implement your goals.

But education means a "Thinking" populace that can see through populace tricks and soon starts to demand real Change...

Too bad the Reds are so hoodwinked by superstition and Hocus Pocus.. some (Many) of their demands are actually legitimate.. too bad they lose all credibility and legitimacy by allowing themselves to be manipulated by true thieves and power hungry fools.

CS

Also, a lot of Thaksin's programs put a lot of power, and especially money, into the hands of the village elites. You stay in the villages for a while and it won't take you long to work out which families form the local elite. They've just been building a new house, they're the local money lenders, probably the puuyaibaan, the kaman or other local officials - and when villagers default they take their land. They're not Chinese and they're not part of the Bangkok elite. They're local people who rip off other locals, and Thaksin's projects often gave them more opportunities to do so. You'll probably find that they're the organizers for the local Reds as well.

Totally agree with that. One of my Thai colleagues' mother (a senior public servant) was appointed to the ultimate committee charged with managing the original 1million Baht to each village handout.

Part of the committees role was to monitor how the money was being spend. After about 6 months she resiged in disgust. She tried to object to the way the money was being used for personal gain by some village heads etc., and was told to shut up.

[manarak]

Sometimes one must remove one's self from a situation to understand it.

Pretend all you out there that This all happened in America.

Americans were in the street. The American military fired at American protesters.

Over 800 dead and injured was reported by the American Government.

How many of you other than Yellow Thais, would even think of defending that American government? None

Europeans would be calling the standing American government Nazis.

(And Europe knows a Nazi when they see one)

At the same time, American main stream media TV was being censure.

At the same time--sites called American visa were being controlled.

Would any of you here be defending the American government?

NO

So why defend the Thai government now?

you are certainly referring to the 1992 Los Angeles riots which left 53 dead and thousands of injured ?

[Jingthing]

A house divided cannot stand. Indeed. Abe Lincoln spoke for the legal government of the USA, not the rebel insurgents.

[Ijustwannateach]

This thread will temporarily be closed for some extreme surgery.

A number of posts have been deleted IN THEIR ENTIRETY (as well as any replies which quoted them) for the following reasons:

Trolling, flaming, inappropriate posting style (all-caps or oversized font), addressing other posters or Thaivisa and its moderators in an insulting, off-topic, or trollish manner

Some warnings may be issued.

Please keep in mind if you do not wish to waste your time posting not to behave in your posts in a manner that will get them deleted, or respond to posts which do so.

[kurtgruen]

When I kept hearing theories, on who started the violence, that left more than 800 wounded and 20 dead, I asked my self the following question...who has to most to gain from violence errupting?

Certainly not the present Government. Most likely, not the Army, who, for the most part, seems to be supporting the present Government.

Not the PAD, who have already defeated a Government and certainly don't want this one to fall to the Reds, since they don't like Thaksin

That left me with two (to me) logical choices. Both are Thaksin's puppets...

The first choice, are the Reds, who have tried everything to get a violent response for a long time now, with the Government not buying into their games. They had the most to gain, by things turning violent. (I'm not talking about the poor people, who got shot or injured, I'm talking about the power behind the reds, who gets them going.

The second choice, would be the police, who have been pro-red, even during the PAD demonstrations. Many of them are still loyal to Thaksin and have lots to gain, if the corruption gets to go full speed again, if the reds take over.

I think, it is insane, to think, that the Government would want to start fighting, that would lead to bloodshed. They tried to avoid bloodshed from the start. It is not in their best interest to disperse the protesters violently and they knew that.

[Sunderland]

Rumours on Thai boards of border police and soldiers on the way to Bangkok from Pranburi (Thanarat Infantry Camp) tonight. Maybe another attempt later today to seize back the areas currently controlled by the red shirts?

[Abrak]

I know I don't have to read these threads but really the two highly bias sides of the argument are incredibly boring. As you can imagine for two sides To end up killing each other there is probably a decent argument on both sides.

The assumption that one side is the inherently paid lackey of a crony dictator or that the other is elite group of the privileged few amounts to a belief that huge amounts of people on either side you choose are simply stupid. And usually assuming that large amounts of people are simply stupid because they don't agree with you simply implies you are the stupid one.

For those who think that Thaksin was all cronyism and achieved nothing they should do their home work and look at things like the reduction in poverty, rise in Northern incomes, reduction in inequality, rise in Gini coefficient. for those who do not Think he was corrupt there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. the reality, I suspect, is that he took popularism and promotion of the mass electorate's goals as a means to an end. The end being similar to K.Pridi's.

The same goes for yesterday's unmitigated disaster. The government wanted an end to the demonstrations and the police and army to enforce the SOE. It really doesn't matter who started it when the orders were given that confrontation was simply inevitable. And personally I think the confrontation would have been far less violent if it had happened weeks ago.

So I don't fault Abhisit and I place limited blame on the reds. I can't help feeling much of the blame lies with the security forces who virtually promote chaos in Thai society to maintain and protect their political hegemony. It somehow seems laughable to me that the aftermath of the current violence is a general demand for the totally incompetent security forces to have a coup to restore stability. It is tantamount to asking the lunatics to take over the asylum.

One wise politician said that in Thailand the jockey rides the horse but never owns it. Let's hope at 90 he doesn't even think that riding it is a good idea.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Abrak