Thai Protesters Remain Defiant In Bloodstained Bangkok

[webfact]

Thai protesters remain defiant in bloodstained Bangkok

BANGKOK (AFP) -- Tensions remained high on the bloodstained streets of Bangkok on Monday after the country's worst political violence in almost two decades left 21 dead and over 800 injured.

Protest leaders have promised to maintain their campaign until the government dissolves parliament and calls fresh elections despite the deaths of seventeen civilians and four soldiers in Saturday's clashes.

The Red Shirt protesters, supporters of fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, maintain they want Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva to step down and leave the country.

"Abhisit must leave Thailand," Reds leader Veera Musikapong told supporters on Sunday. "We ask all government officials to stop serving this government."

Thousands of protesters remained on the streets at the two main protest sites on Sunday.

On Sunday evening Reds gathered to mourn the loss of their comrades at the city's Democracy Monument -- the scene of a fierce battle on Saturday -- where grieving relatives led a procession holding gold-framed pictures of the dead.

They were followed by weeping men carrying caskets, a couple containing bodies draped with Thai flags and flowers.

It is the latest chapter in years of turmoil pitting the ruling elite against the mainly poor and rural Reds, who say the government is illegitimate as it came to power in 2008 after a court ousted Thaksin's allies from power.

Saturday's violence erupted when troops tried to clear one of two sites in the centre of the capital occupied by the protesters for the past month.

Soldiers fired in the air and used tear gas while the Reds responded by hurling rocks.

As the clashes intensified gunshots echoed around the city and both sides accused the other of using live ammunition. Emergency services said two protesters were killed by gunshot wounds to the head.

The army later retreated, calling for a truce with the demonstrators, who were holding five soldiers hostage.

The government said an investigation had been launched into the violence and that negotiations were under way to bring about a resolution to the stand-off without further unrest.

The protesters called on the country's revered King Bhumibol Adulyadej to intervene to prevent further bloodshed.

Tensions briefly escalated again late Sunday as around 200 Reds drove motorcycles to a nearby bridge, on apparently unfounded rumours that the army was approaching.

Thai flags, red roses and incense sticks were placed on pools of blood where protesters were killed or wounded in the Khaosan Road backpacker district, a few yards from a number of ruined cars with their windows smashed in.

-- ©Copyright AFP 2010-04-12

Published with written approval from AFP.

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[krakatoa]

It won't be over "until it's over" and I don't see that happening any time soon.

The red shirts are just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter. He in fact is the prime guilty party.

And as so many have already said Abhisit demonstrated remarkable calm and restraint from 'day # 1'

[apex2000]

It won't be over "until it's over" and I don't see that happening any time soon.

The red shirts are just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter. He in fact is the prime guilty party.

And as so many have already said Abhisit demonstrated remarkable calm and restraint from 'day # 1'

Well, you got that totally wrong, didn't you?

These people are not "just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter" as you state.

They are people who are fighting for human and civil rights within their country of birth.

I assume that you are not a Thai national and therefore know little or nothing of the structure of Thai society.

Before you start adding "wise guy" comments as above, you should learn a little, live with the people a little, research a little - and then give a balanced view of the situation.

Abhisit is a puppet; the army are pulling the strings. And who are the army controlled by?

There are several tiers in the higher echelons of Thai society.

They do not want to lose the power, nor the opportunity to carry out their corrupt practices.

Power and money - these are the main concerns for "your" people - assuming that you are 'yellow', of course.

[VegasVic]

It won't be over "until it's over" and I don't see that happening any time soon.

The red shirts are just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter. He in fact is the prime guilty party.

And as so many have already said Abhisit demonstrated remarkable calm and restraint from 'day # 1'

Well, you got that totally wrong, didn't you?

These people are not "just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter" as you state.

They are people who are fighting for human and civil rights within their country of birth.

I assume that you are not a Thai national and therefore know little or nothing of the structure of Thai society.

Before you start adding "wise guy" comments as above, you should learn a little, live with the people a little, research a little - and then give a balanced view of the situation.

Abhisit is a puppet; the army are pulling the strings. And who are the army controlled by?

There are several tiers in the higher echelons of Thai society.

They do not want to lose the power, nor the opportunity to carry out their corrupt practices.

Power and money - these are the main concerns for "your" people - assuming that you are 'yellow', of course.

Well stated Apex

[Valentine]

It won't be over "until it's over" and I don't see that happening any time soon.

The red shirts are just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter. He in fact is the prime guilty party.

And as so many have already said Abhisit demonstrated remarkable calm and restraint from 'day # 1'

Well, you got that totally wrong, didn't you?

These people are not "just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter" as you state.

They are people who are fighting for human and civil rights within their country of birth.

I assume that you are not a Thai national and therefore know little or nothing of the structure of Thai society.

Before you start adding "wise guy" comments as above, you should learn a little, live with the people a little, research a little - and then give a balanced view of the situation.

Abhisit is a puppet; the army are pulling the strings. And who are the army controlled by?

There are several tiers in the higher echelons of Thai society.

They do not want to lose the power, nor the opportunity to carry out their corrupt practices.

Power and money - these are the main concerns for "your" people - assuming that you are 'yellow', of course.

I hope I assume wrongly that you believe the reds do not crave power & money. There are boundless examples of the addiction of power in people who started off with sincere motives.

[on-on]

Hey, let's have a fifteenth thread with the same running yellow-screaming-at-red/red-screaming-at-yellow debate among a bunch of farangs where everyone just says that the other side is wrong and we end up with lots of idiotic predictions about how everything's over for sure now so and so will lose, clearly (which of course turns out to be wrong). Certainly new ground will be covered!

[RickBradford]

I think it is debatable how much the true agenda of the leaders of the Red Shirts is in line with the aspirations of the mass of their followers.

[Valentine]

I think it is debatable how much the true agenda of the leaders of the Red Shirts is in line with the aspirations of the mass of their followers.

No group would even conceive of trying to attain the aspiration of the masses in Thailand (no matter colour) because to do so would mean they would lose their power.

[brahmburgers]

It won't be over "until it's over" and I don't see that happening any time soon.

The red shirts are just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter. He in fact is the prime guilty party. And as so many have already said Abhisit demonstrated remarkable calm and restraint from 'day # 1'

Before you start adding "wise guy" comments as above, you should learn a little, live with the people a little, research a little - and then give a balanced view of the situation. Abhisit is a puppet; the army are pulling the strings. And who are the army controlled by? There are several tiers in the higher echelons of Thai society.

They do not want to lose the power, nor the opportunity to carry out their corrupt practices.

Power and money - these are the main concerns for "your" people - assuming that you are 'yellow', of course.

I agree with apex and don't agree with krakatoa. I've been involved with Thailand for 24 years, so you might say I've "learn a little, live with the people a little, research a little" about Thailand.

Abhisit is not a puppet. He's also not an iron fisted tough guy, which was part of the reason things got out of hand. Abhisit's people would probably have done some thing differently - before and during these 3 weeks of tattered rallies. He might have kept Sae Dang and his army punks in detention, rather than allow them bail just before the rallies started. He might have allocated a large open space just outside Bkk for the protesters to make their noise (there are essentially no park spaces in Bkk). He might have directed security forces to clean up intersection/bridge blockages as they started, nip it in the bud, rather than let the protesters set up stages and cause commotion. Why didn't security cut power to the stages and/or confiscate power generators for such? I don't know. The main reason is Abhisit tried mightily to be too nice a guy. That was his achilles heel. He was up against some nasty players led by you know who. The young punk Red shirts who came down from Issan were just waiting for the chance to run havoc over Bangkok. They had to wait 3 weeks. They found they could push security troops back and it gave them additional adreneline rushes.

Message to Abhisit, 'you may have lost some skirmishes, but you're going to win the overall campaign if you hang in there. Don't give in to rowdies. Arrest and prosecute the Red leaders. Don't bend over backwards trying to appease mob rule. Maintain your PM status until Dec 2011 or beyond.'

[LomSak27]

Brahmaburgers posted

Abhisit is not a puppet. He's also not an iron fisted tough guy,

So he needs all his backers to help him, remind him of the rewards he'll reap if he just hangs tough and keeps his chin up - leaving the armies daycare facility for scared little kiddies would be a good first step.

[saintofsilence]

From reports most of the reds are there because they are being paid by Thaksin also there are reports id cards have been taken off them so they cant go home , or if they do they probably wont be paid.

The PM has done a remarkable job under the circumstances.

The problem is Thaksin the criminal and his bunch of Red Leaders .

Edited April 12, 2010 by saintofsilence

[anotherpeter]

It won't be over "until it's over" and I don't see that happening any time soon.

The red shirts are just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter. He in fact is the prime guilty party.

And as so many have already said Abhisit demonstrated remarkable calm and restraint from 'day # 1'

Well, you got that totally wrong, didn't you?

These people are not "just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter" as you state.

They are people who are fighting for human and civil rights within their country of birth.

I assume that you are not a Thai national and therefore know little or nothing of the structure of Thai society.

Before you start adding "wise guy" comments as above, you should learn a little, live with the people a little, research a little - and then give a balanced view of the situation.

Abhisit is a puppet; the army are pulling the strings. And who are the army controlled by?

There are several tiers in the higher echelons of Thai society.

They do not want to lose the power, nor the opportunity to carry out their corrupt practices.

Power and money - these are the main concerns for "your" people - assuming that you are 'yellow', of course.

Who is pulling the strings and craving the power for the red shirts? How good is the human and civil rights record of this particular person?

[jonclark]

i've just finished watching the video titled "Thai Army Opens Fire On Protesters, Protesters Hurl Grenades," and i have to say that the title is a little misleading. Nowhere in the video can you see the armying OPENING fire, you see and heard them respond, by firing into the air, which as the commentator says 'if they ae firinging into the crowd there would be alot more dead people hear'. This vidoe speaks volumes about the restraint of the army and how they tried to play by the rules. The actions of the reds - well watch the video, listen to the commentary and work out for yourself if the army really does open fire on the protesters.

[tonywebster]

i've just finished watching the video titled "Thai Army Opens Fire On Protesters, Protesters Hurl Grenades," and i have to say that the title is a little misleading. Nowhere in the video can you see the armying OPENING fire, you see and heard them respond, by firing into the air, which as the commentator says 'if they ae firinging into the crowd there would be alot more dead people hear'. This vidoe speaks volumes about the restraint of the army and how they tried to play by the rules. The actions of the reds - well watch the video, listen to the commentary and work out for yourself if the army really does open fire on the protesters.

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

one example of the thai army firing into the crowd can be seen at 1.25 in this video aired on French tv

in fact there are two examples, one just before 1.25 and one just after it

Edited April 12, 2010 by tonywebster

[geriatrickid]

From the initial post;

As the clashes intensified gunshots echoed around the city and both sides accused the other of using live ammunition. Emergency services said two protesters were killed by gunshot wounds to the head.

That sums up why the army is not used for general police activity. They are trained to kill. They cannot be blamed for doing what they are trained to do. However, the officers and politicians that sent them, can be held accountable. There are many more head wounds than declared and once the information is released it will be even more telling.

From reports most of the reds are there because they are being paid by Thaksin also there are reports id cards have been taken off them so they cant go home , or if they do they probably wont be paid.The PM has done a remarkable job under the circumstances.

The problem is Thaksin the criminal and his bunch of Red Leaders .

No, the id cards for SOME people were willingly surrendered to disrupt attempts to identify the protestots once they were taken into custody. Without access to the id cards, officials would have a harder time processing detainees. The same tactic is employed by protestors around the world. They do not carry id. Please stop repeating garbage propaganda that has no credibility. It's bull sh*t. You are spreading a falsehood and declaring it as fact and taints everything that you then write as the product of someone that cannot differentiate fact from fiction.

The problem rests with the politicians in the Abhisit coalition that are jockeying for position and are using this for their own political benefit. I do not wish to rehash Yellow vs. Red arguments. Minister Korn and other agitaters must stand aside and allow calm discourse to continue. If not, there will be more blood shed. PM Abhisit cannot negotiate with the Reds unless his own coalition stop making his life difficult.

[anotherpeter]

i've just finished watching the video titled "Thai Army Opens Fire On Protesters, Protesters Hurl Grenades," and i have to say that the title is a little misleading. Nowhere in the video can you see the armying OPENING fire, you see and heard them respond, by firing into the air, which as the commentator says 'if they ae firinging into the crowd there would be alot more dead people hear'. This vidoe speaks volumes about the restraint of the army and how they tried to play by the rules. The actions of the reds - well watch the video, listen to the commentary and work out for yourself if the army really does open fire on the protesters.

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

one example of the thai army firing into the crowd can be seen at 1.25 in this video aired on French tv

in fact there are two examples, one just before 1.25 and one just after it

Were they also dragging away dead or injured soldiers before that? How would you expect them to respond after being blown up by a grenade?

[tonywebster]

i've just finished watching the video titled "Thai Army Opens Fire On Protesters, Protesters Hurl Grenades," and i have to say that the title is a little misleading. Nowhere in the video can you see the armying OPENING fire, you see and heard them respond, by firing into the air, which as the commentator says 'if they ae firinging into the crowd there would be alot more dead people hear'. This vidoe speaks volumes about the restraint of the army and how they tried to play by the rules. The actions of the reds - well watch the video, listen to the commentary and work out for yourself if the army really does open fire on the protesters.

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

one example of the thai army firing into the crowd can be seen at 1.25 in this video aired on French tv

in fact there are two examples, one just before 1.25 and one just after it

Were they also dragging away dead or injured soldiers before that? How would you expect them to respond after being blown up by a grenade?

I would expect them to react the way they did Peter, but then i would also expect them to admit to acting this way rather than deny they acted this way.

We have even had the government denying the use of tear gas despite vast evidence to show that they did. If you do something admit to doing it, if you deny it the obviously it was something you should not have been doing.

On one hand we have the murderous abhisit promising transparency while on the other hand we have him and his government denying the use of live ammunition, tear gas etc. Luckily for us we don't have tpo rely on the biased reporting of the thai news for our information, we have the ability to see exactly what went on from both sides.

[Oberkommando]

How good is the human and civil rights record of this particular person?

Still better than the Thai military unfortunately.

[MellowYellow]

It won't be over "until it's over" and I don't see that happening any time soon.

The red shirts are just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter. He in fact is the prime guilty party.

And as so many have already said Abhisit demonstrated remarkable calm and restraint from 'day # 1'

Well, you got that totally wrong, didn't you?

These people are not "just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter" as you state.

They are people who are fighting for human and civil rights within their country of birth.

I assume that you are not a Thai national and therefore know little or nothing of the structure of Thai society.

Before you start adding "wise guy" comments as above, you should learn a little, live with the people a little, research a little - and then give a balanced view of the situation.

Abhisit is a puppet; the army are pulling the strings. And who are the army controlled by?

There are several tiers in the higher echelons of Thai society.

They do not want to lose the power, nor the opportunity to carry out their corrupt practices.

Power and money - these are the main concerns for "your" people - assuming that you are 'yellow', of course.

Who is pulling the strings and craving the power for the red shirts? How good is the human and civil rights record of this particular person?

-Remotely, Thaksin and locally the deranged leaders on scene.

-They have turned it into a disgrace.

-I still support the goals of the red masses but no longer can, in good conscience, support the insane inflammatory actions of their leaders. I can only condemn them.

-Despite it seeming a retreat, I think withdrawing and reforming later as a political force/party divorced completely from Thaksin and his Lieutenants is probably the best way forward.

-The government has it's own big issues as well.

-I think Abhisit has proven he is probably one of the few PM worthy politicians in this country.

-I don't think how he got there is right, but, he is there now. (lets just disagree w/o rehashing the argument please)

-I would prefer he remained PM rather than the list of horrible horrible choices that could replace him from the Democrats, the reds, or the army.

-I think he is one of the few who can possibly contain this firestorm which threatens to envelop the nation.

-I hope he can calm it down without further violence.

-I think one of the big steps towards this is getting out of the blame game and stating clearly all sides own blame in this drama.

-I hope he can keep the lid shut on the military coup aspirations and the aspirations of more radical semi-associated groups (such as PAD) to use this as an opportunity to rage their own war against the poor.

[Jerrytheyoung]

The most important is not to find who has shot the first. It is understandable that it the heat of action, young conscrit soldiers are not reacting as matured experienced Anti-riot Forces.

Ther is a situation which is dangerous for the sake of the Country. Falcons on both sides have fuelled the conflict. There are some deep reasons to this conflict, a lot more complex that pro or anti Takhsin.

Today the first priority is to defuse the situation and bring PEACE to people. The Falcons have to go back to their nests and meditate ....

[LuckyLew]

People will do almost anything for money and/or power

The events of the last 4 weeks show that pretty clearly.

My concern would be that not all involved know exactly why they

are doing what they are doing.

If all involved do know what they are crusading for then fair play to them

If even a minority are just there for the sake of being at the event and

have nothing better to do or are paid invited guest then I feel sorry for

these people.

It is such a shame that the leaders on all sides (there are more than two sides)

and groups seem more worried about position / prestige / power and baht

[chadintheusa]

i've just finished watching the video titled "Thai Army Opens Fire On Protesters, Protesters Hurl Grenades," and i have to say that the title is a little misleading. Nowhere in the video can you see the armying OPENING fire, you see and heard them respond, by firing into the air, which as the commentator says 'if they ae firinging into the crowd there would be alot more dead people hear'. This vidoe speaks volumes about the restraint of the army and how they tried to play by the rules. The actions of the reds - well watch the video, listen to the commentary and work out for yourself if the army really does open fire on the protesters.

If the army had fired into the crowds of protesters there would have been a lot more dead. They were restricted in their rules of engagement while the extreme factions of reds had no such restrictions. If the army has to disperse the crowds again you can be sure that they won't be as restrained. It is better to disband the protests and work in a democratic matter to resolve these issues. Elections in 6 months seems like a reasonable time frame. Six months is barely enough time to hold a legitimate campaign anyway. Develop policies and give the electorate something to vote for. What time frame are the reds asking for? Do they want elections during Songkran? That can't happen.

[chadintheusa]

Parading dead bodies around the streets is inflammatory, undignified, and barbaric. If the red leaders hadn't brought the protesters to Bangkok they'd still be alive. Shame on them.

[londonthai]

despite 15 dead (no, they did not commit suicide or were killed by it's own side) and some 800 wounded, many of them critically and seriously, protesters do stay, because they are not payed to protest mob, but are motivated politically and are ready to die in defence of their deep convictions.

[mizzi39]

I do not take sides in this matter and just hope for peace, same as when the PAD were running amok, but you have a Govt. that states the reds were responsible for the fire fight,yet every video that i watch shows soldiers clearly firing into the crowd.

If the Govt. wants to retain some form of credibility, then they should at least come clean. It appears that both sides were responsible for Saturday's escalation, but then again if Thailand had a responsible Govt. that could actually govern this would not have been aloud to escalate for over a month.

[jayboy]

I do not take sides in this matter and just hope for peace, same as when the PAD were running amok, but you have a Govt. that states the reds were responsible for the fire fight,yet every video that i watch shows soldiers clearly firing into the crowd.

If the Govt. wants to retain some form of credibility, then they should at least come clean. It appears that both sides were responsible for Saturday's escalation, but then again if Thailand had a responsible Govt. that could actually govern this would not have been aloud to escalate for over a month.

I have refrained from commenting so far mainly because the situation is so desperately sad it just doesn't give any pleasure to score political points.It is however worth pointing out that at this stage it simply isn't possible to attribute blame for violence (or initiating violence) to one side or the other.I have looked very carefully at the evidence that's available and much of it is contradictory or obscure.I suppose this is the "fog of war" factor but in due course a better picture will emerge.It always does.In situations like this it is extraordinarily difficult to prevent a spark spreading into a bush fire.

My sympathies are broadly red.However I would ask that those who share my sympathies (those who don't won't pay me attention) do not post attributing blame to the security forces who have generally done extremely well.The honest answer is that we don't yet know who is to blame and it will take time for a clear understanding to emerge.

Edited April 12, 2010 by jayboy

[Thai at Heart]

I assume that you are not a Thai national and therefore know little or nothing of the structure of Thai society.

A big part of the issue is that it appears that a rather large amount of Thais only worked out how Thai society REALLY works recently too.

This may be the start of the end of patronage and entitlement.

And if you think I am asking for some kind of civil war, I am not, I am just commenting that if you don't think the events of the last 5 or 6 years are partly because the rural areas became politically more aware and astute, I disagree.

[clockworkorange]

Brahmaburgers posted

Abhisit is not a puppet. He's also not an iron fisted tough guy,

So he needs all his backers to help him, remind him of the rewards he'll reap if he just hangs tough and keeps his chin up - leaving the armies daycare facility for scared little kiddies would be a good first step.

Right - so much for the great leader Abhisit, as he cowers in his bunker. How brave he is, and what an example he sets!

It's easy to see why his people detest him so much, to the extent where even the army don't frighten them. Abhisit is seen as just another spoiled brat who holds the rural majority in contempt.

[brahmburgers]

Look at the cartoon. Here's what the characters represent in my view.

The two rednecks are the Red shirt leaders

The basketball player (who you don't see) is Abhisit

The Australopithecine represents the hot head guys among the Reds

[animatic]

I think it is debatable how much the true agenda of the leaders of the Red Shirts is in line with the aspirations of the mass of their followers.

I don't agree with RB much, but he is quite right here.

The leaders have harnnesed several differing groups,

and tried to create a red siding rainbow environment to hide the true black color behind.