Thai Forces Fire Warning Shots In Standoff With Red Shirts

[george and dragon]

I agree that, maybe, there are people who feel that their own interests in Thailand, as farangs, may be somehow in jeopardy as any possible xenophobic people's group (to them) could alter their future here. However, Thailand has a much longer history than the US or Australia or, for that matter, Russia, Germany (only newly recomposed) and so on! Thailand's people are its strength as well as its future. People should trust in them as they have done fairly well (better than the US with its total gunboat diplomacy and internation relations stance) over the entire history of Thailand. I really feel that the farangs should relax and stay out of this entire thing. I will not say who is right or who is wrong, remember that it is the victors who write history! So, no matter what, it will all be so much ado about nothing in the sheer scope of things. Relax. Get your groceries, teach what you teach or do as you do. No one is stopping you, unless you live in the "backpack" area of Bangkok! Otherwise, what purpose do your opinions serve? Why not support the King? He is a better arbitor and far more respected than any of these political leaders. Also, I feel that he will be wise for he has the people's hearts and wishes alway at hand and has always acted with such care and concern for all. Now, he stays out. He may want this thing to reach a certain point before he really steps in to tell his children to settle down, behave and to treat one another well. (My opinion, of course.)

Lighten up. Stay out of the affairs of state for they have nothing to do with the farang. This is the Thai's nation, not yours. You seem to want to make things worse with your opinions and snide comments about the right and the wrong of either side. Let them settle this without your addition of negativity, fear and opinions that mean nothing, and should mean nothing, in the light of this controversy.

I trust the Thai people to do what they need to do and to do it for the best for all. I am sticking by this.

Take care and, of course, peace to all of you.

I am sorry i do have to agree with some of what you say, but to say it's not our business is not entirely true, some of us have lived here and put everything we have in to this wonderful country we now call home and some for more than quater or half thier lives., we have family here, wife's & children. when there is a break down in socierty and lives are taken it affects all who reside here.

It would be so nice to say call an election and it will all go away, but if you give in as easy as that the foundation and structer of what has been built as a coutry as a whole is broken down..

And i am not entirely sure what the Backpacker area has to do with it? it's now nation wide...

All we can do is pray for peace... enough killing has been done..

Peace...

[Sisaketmike]

(((((Of course! I would too if the army of my country was killing people with "rubber bullets". Seems their training is so crap that they are killing each other, not civilians - at the moment... Or was that the watermelons who did that?

Anyway why ask for facts when the government has tried to silence any dissenting voice - publications, TV, political scientists and websites? Anyone who still supports this Fascist government needs counselling with something like a baseball bat...))))

Be fair here

The US forces in world war II killed so many in friendly fire, the press was told to not report on it

The good thing about the American bombs in Germany is that most of them are still active, like the Iceland volcano. But it always hits mostly farmers, when they blow off. Be happy that you don't know how deadly rubber can be. To be honest: to be without rubber could decrease your life for centuries. Especially in a country like that. Aids. Hepatitis, and other non wanted stuff.....And stuff and stuff.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Sisaketmike

[landofthefree]

If the army go in there will be carnage , it will be the end of Abhisit and probably the start of a civil war. Lets all pray that they don't do it.

If he caves to the red terror, there will probably be civil war as well. Remember the MAJORITY of Thais (yellow plus all non-reds) are not in favor of a red government, especially now, that they have become a terrorist organization.

A great argument for holding elections unfortunately Abhisit doesn't seem to share your confidence.

Fair elections are NOT possible now. Duh.

OK So the only option is civil war. What does Duh mean?

[jcbangkok]

I think you have got it wrong, he was facing a building (or turning slowly) when he was shot at close range...it couldn't have been the military as they were at least 200yards away...he fell towards the military..must have been a boomerang bullet?

I thought that rubber bullets were fired from M79 grenade launchers, you know, 40mm diameter and about 300mm long, they're bounced along the road so that they hit the protesters in the legs???

How do you know he was shot at close range? Why do you think the direction he fell indicates the direction he was shot from?

I believe most rubber bullets here are fired from shotguns ... just a different round. You can see the soldiers carry multi colored shells.

And this is not TV, people are not propelled in a direction when they are shot. What is telling is he was shot in the front of the head (face) as he was looking to the red side. Even in the video this is very clear as is the direction of the bullet by the large exit would (back of his head being blown off).

Edited April 28, 2010 by jcbangkok

[ozzieman05]

I think that using force by Abhisit is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

It may disperse the crowd but it will NOT kill off the movement, peopel will still bear grudges and hold grievances and the movement will go underground.

Underground movements tend to resort to violent tactics....we see this already in the southern provinces here in Thailand...and we have seen it before in Northern Ireland, the Basque country, Palestine etc

The only hope for a peaceful outcome is negotiation

Completely agree, unfortunately, the reds cannot/will not negotiate, it would seem that they are only capable of making demands!

FF

Don't be silly, Abhisit refused to talk last time when the reds softened their demands....

ha ha ha

You are a funny man

Do you understand what you said

DEMANDS

you don't negotiate with DEMANDS

[Sisaketmike]

THE NATION: Tension has cooled off btw troops and reds. We don't xpect more excitement tonite

Surely this must mean tonight is the night.

Even a tourist on a holiday seems to know more about the whole situation here in Thailand. Amazing Thailand. Amazing short time farlangs.

[Sisaketmike]

I think that using force by Abhisit is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

It may disperse the crowd but it will NOT kill off the movement, peopel will still bear grudges and hold grievances and the movement will go underground.

Underground movements tend to resort to violent tactics....we see this already in the southern provinces here in Thailand...and we have seen it before in Northern Ireland, the Basque country, Palestine etc

The only hope for a peaceful outcome is negotiation

Completely agree, unfortunately, the reds cannot/will not negotiate, it would seem that they are only capable of making demands!

FF

Don't be silly, Abhisit refused to talk last time when the reds softened their demands....

ha ha ha

You are a funny man

Do you understand what you said

DEMANDS

you don't negotiate with DEMANDS

You seem to be a very funny Ossie man from East Germany. Please try to think before posting. The wall is gone...........

[offissa]

I think that using force by Abhisit is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

It may disperse the crowd but it will NOT kill off the movement, peopel will still bear grudges and hold grievances and the movement will go underground.

Underground movements tend to resort to violent tactics....we see this already in the southern provinces here in Thailand...and we have seen it before in Northern Ireland, the Basque country, Palestine etc

The only hope for a peaceful outcome is negotiation

Completely agree, unfortunately, the reds cannot/will not negotiate, it would seem that they are only capable of making demands!

FF

Don't be silly, Abhisit refused to talk last time when the reds softened their demands....

ha ha ha

You are a funny man

Do you understand what you said

DEMANDS

you don't negotiate with DEMANDS

Negotiations quite often start with demands...

[retarius]

I think that using force by Abhisit is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

It may disperse the crowd but it will NOT kill off the movement, peopel will still bear grudges and hold grievances and the movement will go underground.

Underground movements tend to resort to violent tactics....we see this already in the southern provinces here in Thailand...and we have seen it before in Northern Ireland, the Basque country, Palestine etc

The only hope for a peaceful outcome is negotiation

Completely agree, unfortunately, the reds cannot/will not negotiate, it would seem that they are only capable of making demands!

FF

Don't be silly, Abhisit refused to talk last time when the reds softened their demands....

Yes, because it was more "Demands!" He, however did offer more talks, but the reds refused!

FF

Every negotiation starts out as a set of demands by each party which soften as the negotiation proceeds...it's how it's supposed to work...the problem comes when one side, Abhisit refuses to discuss a softened demand because he wants the other party to lose face or he's decided on a course of violent action....

[dude007]

You're an idiot. This is hardly "democracy in motion". This is a mob of pissed off people overthrowing a government. That's not democracy. You know, at first I felt somewhat supportive of the red-shirts, but not anymore. Due to their actions, do you seriously believe these are people who are going to be content with nothing more than free & fair elections? I very highly doubt that, and their actions have very much proven otherwise.

I think this is actually starting to get pretty serious though. You have to remember, it was only a simple 35 years ago that Pol Pot was in charge of Cambodia, and killing millions of his fellow country men. Up to this date, the red shirts have given pretty strong indications that they're capable of doing the same type of thing. Some of them seem to have become quite demented, and at the point where they despise anyone who has more money than them.

No matter how you cut it, or what side you support, this isn't good. Let's hope it resolves itself with as little bloodshed as possible, and things don't turn into total anarchy. Don't be fooled into thinking that anarchy and a 100% reversal of power & governance can't happen though.

If it is not democracy, then what is it? How was democracy inevitably achieved in your country? Most democracies did not start that way, the people had to fight to gain liberties. I would guess through force, because most ruling governments that do not represent the people end up in some type reaction from the people.

In Canada, democracy was achieved quite peacefully, actually. Nonetheless, that doesn't matter, because well, it's Canada. I'm currently living in Issan myself, and at the beginning felt quite supportive of the red shirts. I felt for their plight, and thought their demands were very legitimate and reasonable. That's changed now though, as they've completely crossed the line. Peacefully protesting is one thing, but trying to overthrow the current government with a blood thirsty vengeance is another thing.

There is a line, and the red shirts have more than crossed it now. For example, civilians can't just setup checkpoints around the country, and search and seize vehicles as they see fit. People who cross the line in such a way aren't looking for democracy. They're looking for power, and to dictate their ideologies on everyone else. As it stands, I honestly do hope the current government has the means, capability, and will to crackdown on the protesters. If the red shirts win this ordeal, Thailand isn't going to be a pretty sight.

If the red shirts manage to overthrow the government, don't expect them to be civil about it, and say, "Great! Now let's all get along, and hold free & fair elections". Not gonna happen.

You're absolutely right.. and I guarantee nary a red shirt supporter has thought this far ahead.. especially the ones on this forum.

Hey hey hey... Lopburi3 and Global Moderators, men in black,: where is Your ZERO TOLERANCE??? Or was it only applicable to my postings?

[apetley]

Never heard that rubber bullets kill, even aiming at the head although they can maim...

There have been numerous instances of death caused by improper use of rubber bullets. The usual cause of death is firing from too close a range.

Google will reveal many accounts.

[Neurath]

Negotiations quite often start with demands...

Sure, but they shouldn't be set as a precondition for negotiations to proceed. The 30 day dissolution was so set. The only major thing left to negotiate was amnesty for those indicted. Not a good way to move forward.

[elcent]

-- The Nation

Police confiscated 63 M-79 grenades from a motorcycle during a search on Vibhavadi Rangsit road on Wednesday.

Police stopped a motorcycle at a checkpoint set up after red shirts protesters clashed with troops on the road. Driver of the vehicle stopped as ordered but managed to run away.

Police then searched the vehicle and confiscated a total of 63 M-79 grenades from the vehicle.

It is still unclear how the explosives were packed.

Also found were documents of Pol Sgt Pratya Maneekote of Patum Thani's Kukot district.

Police could not say whether the drive was the sergeant.

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

oh lala, staged or real? probably from both a little.

Edited April 28, 2010 by elcent

[retarius]

I think that using force by Abhisit is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

It may disperse the crowd but it will NOT kill off the movement, peopel will still bear grudges and hold grievances and the movement will go underground.

Underground movements tend to resort to violent tactics....we see this already in the southern provinces here in Thailand...and we have seen it before in Northern Ireland, the Basque country, Palestine etc

The only hope for a peaceful outcome is negotiation

You are a born genius

But did you realise the Reds will not negotiate unless it is 100% their way

This is not negotiation

As I said before, every negotiation starts out with a set of demands which soften as the process starts out...the reds started out with immediate dissolution as the 'demand'...it is abundantly clear that you have never participated in negotiations, or been involved with them on any professional level...a very, very common strategy at the outset is to "demand" a non-negotiable demand, and then negotiate it....

[jcbangkok]

dude007

I am pretty sure the ban will be longer this time if they see what you posted. I mean this as friendly advice ... read the forum rules. You can not comment on a mod's actions.

And yes, rubber bullets to the head "can" kill at close range but just because people are stuck in the head doesn't mean it was intentional. These rounds and how they are fired are not at all accurate. Remember too, even non-lethal forms of weapons can be lethal. Even a baseball (or rubber bullet) to the chest can be deadly in certain circumstances.

I would also assume that soldiers and police have the right to use deadly force if they feel their lives are in danger including somebody who has not responded to non-lethal methods and continues to charge them be it a mob or somebody with a sharpened stick. In fact the law is clear now they can used deadly force if the insurgents come within 30 meters. They have all been made aware of this. So, really who is to blame if they die?

Hopefully they go home and realize this is not the way to achieve "their" democracy and nobody else gets hurt but clearly the blame will be on them as they have had multiple (!!!!) opportunities to negotiate and leave. They have gone to far to have any reasonable person hear anything they have to say now except to apologize to people of Thailand.

[surfgliderdb]

More blood on the Red's hands.

Your sumit else mate

the military guy shot in the head was by friendly fire let me spell that out for you

that means he was shot by his own men not red shirts

Even if it were friendly fire, reds are to blame as the friendly fire would not have happened if the reds

were reasonable and would disburse.

[vicco]

I think that using force by Abhisit is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

It may disperse the crowd but it will NOT kill off the movement, peopel will still bear grudges and hold grievances and the movement will go underground.

Underground movements tend to resort to violent tactics....we see this already in the southern provinces here in Thailand...and we have seen it before in Northern Ireland, the Basque country, Palestine etc

The only hope for a peaceful outcome is negotiation

Completely agree, unfortunately, the reds cannot/will not negotiate, it would seem that they are only capable of making demands!

FF

Don't be silly, Abhisit refused to talk last time when the reds softened their demands....

ha ha ha

You are a funny man

Do you understand what you said

DEMANDS

you don't negotiate with DEMANDS

What??? You don't negotiate with demands.....what the hel_l do you negotiate with then? Do you think trade union negotiators start off with..."ahem....if it would not be too much trouble,...do you think maybe the company could see its way to giving the workers a $10 an hour increase...please...pretty please? or might it be more like..."Right, Item 1..$10 an hour wage increase..non negotiable" Item 2........Company kicks their ass out of the room....Strike. is called.. after.2 months of threats, posturing, politics backstabbing, and back room deals......the union accepts $2 an hour. That's how negotiations work in the real world. Been there done that.

[Jingthing]

I don't think we know enough to know for sure why the latest demand didn't go further. I suspect it has something to do with red shirt leader immunity. I think the government may feel that is impossible to grant now after what has recently happened.

[xminator]

Rubber bullets are "less lethal", not "non lethal". Unfortunately more then a few world leaders read "less lethal" as "non lethal" and forget that untrained personel will make errors.

Even blank shots can cause serious injury or death at short range. All training centers have a montage of mayhem caused by red colored blank nato rounds. Something that make a hole in 2 cm of plywood also have the potential to kill.

Also note that there have been international reactions to the practice of crackdowns after dark/at night. Its not deemed as "according to international practice".

[Neurath]

I think that using force by Abhisit is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

It may disperse the crowd but it will NOT kill off the movement, peopel will still bear grudges and hold grievances and the movement will go underground.

Underground movements tend to resort to violent tactics....we see this already in the southern provinces here in Thailand...and we have seen it before in Northern Ireland, the Basque country, Palestine etc

The only hope for a peaceful outcome is negotiation

You are a born genius

But did you realise the Reds will not negotiate unless it is 100% their way

This is not negotiation

As I said before, every negotiation starts out with a set of demands which soften as the process starts out...the reds started out with immediate dissolution as the 'demand'...it is abundantly clear that you have never participated in negotiations, or been involved with them on any professional level...a very, very common strategy at the outset is to "demand" a non-negotiable demand, and then negotiate it....

Sure, but they didn't negotiate it. First time further talks were offered Jatuporn said no deal. Dissolve in 15 days. No further talks no negotiation. Second time, 30 day dissolution was set as a precondition for further talks. No capitulation to the 30 days, no further talks said Veera. They are not using your common strategy. I would suggest it was a 'fig leaf' offer to negotiate to back up the attempted Potempkin villiage sleight for the Embassy visitors.

[humfurry]

Negotiations quite often start with demands...

Sure, but they shouldn't be set as a precondition for negotiations to proceed. The 30 day dissolution was so set. The only major thing left to negotiate was amnesty for those indicted. Not a good way to move forward.

I believe that the Reds demanded a 15 day dissolution... in their first demands. The most trying aspect of this is that is was their only demand (and still is) . Nothing was said about the condition of the poor or how to solve the problems of education or how to redistribute the wealth or how to increase farm productivity...

nary a word. Just dissolve the government.

Well that will go a long way in helping the poor.

Edited April 28, 2010 by humfurry

[Zolt]

-- The Nation

Police confiscated 63 M-79 grenades from a motorcycle during a search on Vibhavadi Rangsit road on Wednesday.

Police stopped a motorcycle at a checkpoint set up after red shirts protesters clashed with troops on the road. Driver of the vehicle stopped as ordered but managed to run away.

Police then searched the vehicle and confiscated a total of 63 M-79 grenades from the vehicle.

It is still unclear how the explosives were packed.

Also found were documents of Pol Sgt Pratya Maneekote of Patum Thani's Kukot district.

Police could not say whether the drive was the sergeant.

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

Morons. They managed to let the guy flee. On foot. On an elevated expressway. Aren't situation like this one precisely why policemen get issued guns? Fortunately the guy was even more of a moron and left his papers behind. At least this will decrease the stock of M79 grenades ready to be tossed around Bangkok.

I don't believe this was staged: it looks too much like sheer stupidity at work.

[TheOldWolf]

I think that using force by Abhisit is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

It may disperse the crowd but it will NOT kill off the movement, peopel will still bear grudges and hold grievances and the movement will go underground.

Underground movements tend to resort to violent tactics....we see this already in the southern provinces here in Thailand...and we have seen it before in Northern Ireland, the Basque country, Palestine etc

The only hope for a peaceful outcome is negotiation

You are a born genius

But did you realise the Reds will not negotiate unless it is 100% their way

This is not negotiation

As I said before, every negotiation starts out with a set of demands which soften as the process starts out...the reds started out with immediate dissolution as the 'demand'...it is abundantly clear that you have never participated in negotiations, or been involved with them on any professional level...a very, very common strategy at the outset is to "demand" a non-negotiable demand, and then negotiate it....

Like I said before. The reds made the demand to come to the negotiationtable.

[humfurry]

-- The Nation

Police confiscated 63 M-79 grenades from a motorcycle during a search on Vibhavadi Rangsit road on Wednesday.

Police stopped a motorcycle at a checkpoint set up after red shirts protesters clashed with troops on the road. Driver of the vehicle stopped as ordered but managed to run away.

Police then searched the vehicle and confiscated a total of 63 M-79 grenades from the vehicle.

It is still unclear how the explosives were packed.

Also found were documents of Pol Sgt Pratya Maneekote of Patum Thani's Kukot district.

Police could not say whether the drive was the sergeant.

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

Morons. They managed to let the guy flee. On foot. On an elevated expressway. Aren't situation like this one precisely why policemen get issued guns? Fortunately the guy was even more of a moron and left his papers behind. At least this will decrease the stock of M79 grenades ready to be tossed around Bangkok.

I don't believe this was staged: it looks too much like sheer stupidity at work. It's very impolite to call Thais stupid, suggest that you reconsider using this word in future posts.

Cheers

I guess that you mean that it wasn't worth killing over?

Edited April 28, 2010 by humfurry

[landofthefree]

-- The Nation

Police confiscated 63 M-79 grenades from a motorcycle during a search on Vibhavadi Rangsit road on Wednesday.

Police stopped a motorcycle at a checkpoint set up after red shirts protesters clashed with troops on the road. Driver of the vehicle stopped as ordered but managed to run away.

Police then searched the vehicle and confiscated a total of 63 M-79 grenades from the vehicle.

It is still unclear how the explosives were packed.

Also found were documents of Pol Sgt Pratya Maneekote of Patum Thani's Kukot district.

Police could not say whether the drive was the sergeant.

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

Morons. They managed to let the guy flee. On foot. On an elevated expressway. Aren't situation like this one precisely why policemen get issued guns? Fortunately the guy was even more of a moron and left his papers behind. At least this will decrease the stock of M79 grenades ready to be tossed around Bangkok.

I don't believe this was staged: it looks too much like sheer stupidity at work.

How do you hide or even carry 63 grenades on a motorcycle? Where would you put them? How can a driver run away and get away?

Investigative reporters of the Nation please do your homework and at least make your stories half believable.

[Motoon]

Negotiations start with demand and offer. A non-negotiable demand is a rather unfortunate base for negotiations, as there can be no negotiation, only either acceptance or dismissal. Savvy?

[jcbangkok]

I don't think we know enough to know for sure why the latest demand didn't go further. I suspect it has something to do with red shirt leader immunity. I think the government may feel that is impossible to grant now after what has recently happened.

Not only the immunity thing but this was a demand that must be met (house dissolution in 30 days) before they would even agree to sit down and talk.

Plus Abhisit has been pretty clear this is not a solution to Thailand's problems and the Reds are by no means a representative of all the parties and people in Thailand who also need to be considered. Although not said in these words he also seemed to indicate that ...

Elections under threats by a mob will solve nothing and will simply lead to more coups. Remember there have been 18 coups in Thailand in 77 years. This is almost 1 for every 4-year election period.

Abhisit is also legally the PM and was voted in by elected parliment as was the last two PMs. There is NO legal reason for him to hold elections and there is NOTHING going on in the country to indicate he should hold early elections accept for a lawless mob whose only goal is to bring down the current gov't in hopes of bringing back one that is banned and whose leader is a convicted Thai criminal on the run. Make no mistake about it ... the red leaders have made clear that NO policies Abhisit could put in place will save him from their demands to hold elections. THIS IS NOTHING ABOUT THE NEEDS OF THE POOR AND STILL REMAINS TO BE ABOUT 1 MAN.

The facts are very clear that Abisit in 18 months has provided a number of policies to help the poor and elderly as well as the farmers of Thailand and has implimented NO policies to hurt them. He has not taken away anything Thaksin in 6 years put in place and in fact has taken some of Thaksin's policies and made them better such as FREE healthcare instead of Thaksin's one time payment thing which was a failure.

[jcbangkok]

Negotiations start with demand and offer. A non-negotiable demand is a rather unfortunate base for negotiations, as there can be no negotiation, only either acceptance or dismissal. Savvy?

Give us what we want and then after that we will talk. This exactly what they demanded.

[landofthefree]

I don't think we know enough to know for sure why the latest demand didn't go further. I suspect it has something to do with red shirt leader immunity. I think the government may feel that is impossible to grant now after what has recently happened.

Not only the immunity thing but this was a demand that must be met (house dissolution in 30 days) before they would even agree to sit down and talk.

Plus Abhisit has been pretty clear this is not a solution to Thailand's problems and the Reds are by no means a representative of all the parties and people in Thailand who also need to be considered. Although not said in these words he also seemed to indicate that ...

Elections under threats by a mob will solve nothing and will simply lead to more coups. Remember there have been 18 coups in Thailand in 77 years. This is almost 1 for every 4-year election period.

Abhisit is also legally the PM and was voted in by elected parliment as was the last two PMs. There is NO legal reason for him to hold elections and there is NOTHING going on in the country to indicate he should hold early elections accept for a lawless mob whose only goal is to bring down the current gov't in hopes of bringing back one that is banned and whose leader is a convicted Thai criminal on the run. Make no mistake about it ... the red leaders have made clear that NO policies Abhisit could put in place will save him from their demands to hold elections. THIS IS NOTHING ABOUT THE NEEDS OF THE POOR AND STILL REMAINS TO BE ABOUT 1 MAN.

The facts are very clear that Abisit in 18 months has provided a number of policies to help the poor and elderly as well as the farmers of Thailand and has implimented NO policies to hurt them. He has not taken away anything Thaksin in 6 years put in place and in fact has taken some of Thaksin's policies and made them better such as FREE healthcare instead of Thaksin's one time payment thing which was a failure.

A question for you.... If Abhisit is legally the PM why does the worlds media doubt it?In every article or interview with Abhisit it is raised as an issue. When he is asked about it he looks very uncomfortable. Are the world's media all wrong and you and the Nation right?

[jcbangkok]

Army leaders on TV talking now.