Why So Nationalistic?

[moe666]

Tourism may only be 6% of GDP but ask someone who has lost their job or income has been lowered because of the down turn, it adds up to 100%.

[cdnvic]

From what I recall, the importance of tourism isn't so much it's percentage of GDP, but that it's the largest source of foreign currency.

[roamer]

Put the question another way. If it is nationalistic has it harmed or benefited Thailand?

Nationalism or patriotism ? The difference:

Patriotism is proud of a country’s virtues and eager to correct its deficiencies; it also acknowledges the legitimate patriotism of other countries, with their own specific virtues. The pride of nationalism, however, trumpets its country’s virtues and denies its deficiencies, while it is contemptuous toward the virtues of other countries. It wants to be, and proclaims itself to be, “the greatest,” but greatness is not required of a country; only goodness is. — Sydney J. Harris

I would accept that as pretty much summing up LOS in many ways, don't get me wrong, love the place but every time I hear a Thai tell me "Thailand No 1" I think sadly to myself that is so not the case. No 1 in what ...bulls..t ? It has a language that for all practical purposes is not understood by anyone outside the Kingdom yet still adamantly refuses to adopt English as an official second language and put greater emphasis on its learning with the lowest TOEFL scores in Asia, a rote learning education system that is still in the dark ages, that's the harm that nationalism can cause, people not prepared to look at its deficiencies.

The quoted figures about tourism being relatively unimportant to farming or manufacturing as a percentage of GDP are roughly correct....as far as you can put them on paper but its generally accepted that the overall contribution in indirect earnings from tourism is far higher in both economic and social redistribution than appears on the balance sheet. The failure of Thailand to protect its environment and allow runaway development fueled by corruption will largely kill what remains of its tourist potential, as if political upheaval and Phuket tuk-tuk drivers were not doing enough.

Manufacturing ? That is what drives the Thai economy, automobiles, cables, electronics, if I buy a hard drive now chances are it's got a sticker that proclaims "Made in Thailand". That's great but 10 years ago but so would an item of clothing...you won't see that now. The garment industry can move quicker and faster than production lines for cars or electronics and it did, and that was in a time of relative political stability. It moved for economic reasons,and those same forces will drive the manufacturing industries the same way...then what replaces it ?

Lost count of how many Thai's tell me with a very firm nationalistic pride of how strong the baht is. It's undeniably true as many of us know to our cost. The problem is that I can't think of another nation that has enjoyed such an increase in its national coffers and failed so miserably to invest in its future. Then again if you had invested even 5% of your surplus into a decent education system, allowed pupils to question teachers, they might have grown up questioning those who rule, might have demanded free speech, who knows where it could end ?

Maybe better, for some, that "Thailand No 1."

[toybits]

Why so Nationalistic? Because it is easier to be Nationalistic than to be Patriotic.

They feel good when they wave the flag of Nationalism. Its so easy. Its like saying "My dad is better than your dad". It requires no work. No sacrifice. Just saliva.

Nationalism is putting your country ahead of other people's countries.

Patriotism, however, is different. It is putting your country ahead of yourself. Now this is a lesson to be learned by many of this kingdoms politicians and civil servants. wink wink...

[Berkshire]

This thread really is beyond asinine. The OP makes the absurd claim that Thai's are nationalistic with not one iota of proof. I do not think the Thai's are nationalistic at all. Many are proud of their country, countrymen, what the country stands for, and so on. Do you prefer that they not be proud of their country? There are many countries around the world that have huge problems, yet, their citizens can still be proud of what their citizenship represents. Many of the issues that foreigners have brought up (e.g., foreign land ownership, visa regs, dual pricing, etc.) has absolutely NOTHING to do with nationalistic tendencies. If Thai's were nationalistic, there would be much more "foreigners unwelcome" attitudes from individual Thai's. I've seen none of that. If you have, I'd say it says more about you than the Thai's.

[apetley]

Nationalism can be a good thing.

For instance it can be a belief and support in the standards and culture of ones home country.

It may also lead to being blinkered, inward looking and distrustful of things foreign. It then approaches zenophobia.

Exists worldwide I would guess.

[siamamerican]

Another silly OP. Thais are Nationalistic - in what manner? I would venture to guess that the OP hasn't received the respect a Foreigner here in Thailand is owed.

[Samuian]

"Guesthouse" in Post #17 did hit the bullyee spot on!

It is plain silly to bring in other countries and their assumed "Nationalism" into the discussion, what is this going to tell the audience?

In Thailand any economic sector is a very well guarded turf,

monopoly is the magic word.... yes, and all of it controlled by a few mega rich families.

And Nationalism combined with Patriotism is not a healthy mixture to cover up absolut market control.

But that is how things work here.

edited to add text...

Edited June 24, 2010 by Samuian

[TAWP]

There can be some very good reasons for being Nationalistic. If you aren't then there WILL be wealthy foreigners who WILL exploit the country to the country's detriment. I hear the old argument that foreign investment is good for a country... but only when tempered with some caution. There are always those that are willing to rape and pillage foreign lands. There is no need for war when the wealthy can bribe local politicians and basically steal whatever isn't tied down. I see examples of it at all levels and even within my own country. The big business comes in, bribes a few local politicians and sets up a short time company to remove the public's resources. A few years later the company shuts down and takes their profits off shore. Meanwhile, the public in whose land was raped is left with a big hole in the ground and no jobs. I've seen it happen within my own community in Canada, so don't tell me it doesn't happen on a larger scale in poorer countries where it's easier to bribe the locals in power.

That only tells us that politicians are crocked and the nation can be raped by them if it doesn't have a proper constitution and political system in place, not that nationalism nor patriotism in any way is a good thing for people in general.

Heck, the best thing would be the abolishment of countries all together...

[TheLaughingMan]

Statistics lie. Most of the tourist income to the country is UNREPORTED.

[angiud]

It was what I was trying to write in my shaky English

My guess is that tourism related income is around 20/35% of the GDP

[ballpoint]

I find it ironic that many of those claiming that the country is nationalist and xenophobic, on this thread and others, are the same ones telling us that tourism makes up a larger percentage of the country's income than the official figures state. Telling us that the country is anti foreigner, a complete ripoff and no one wants to come here anymore, yet also stating that more money is spent by foreigners coming here on holiday than is actually declared, don't really match. All those people who don't come here seem to be spending a lot of money here. Yes, yes, they will all stop coming because of the airport shutdown, the protests, the scams, just like people have stopped going to Bali or London because of the bombings, or have stopped flying altogether because of the threat of hijackings (sarcasm). The vast majority of tourists come here visa free, spend their money, have a dam_n good time, may run into a few scam artists, but also run into many genuinely friendly Thais, and go home happy. The debate over whether the country is more, or less, nationalist than any other doesn't even come into it.

[TAWP]

It was what I was trying to write in my shaky English

My guess is that tourism related income is around 20/35% of the GDP

No, the same under-reporting of income as you claim tourism industry has, is prevalent across all industries.

Tax dodging is a national sport here - not even counting that the lowest rung is also exempt from paying tax up to 90% of their income (stall owners for instance).

[angiud]

Correction: 20/25%.

And, yes TAWP you could be right. Tax evasion is everywhere

[thaihome]

From what I recall, the importance of tourism isn't so much it's percentage of GDP, but that it's the largest source of foreign currency.

Can you explain why Thailand would need any other source of foreign currency other then the open exhanges?

If you need dollars or euros in todays world, you just go buy them, why would they need tourist to bring them into the country?

TH

[TAWP]

From what I recall, the importance of tourism isn't so much it's percentage of GDP, but that it's the largest source of foreign currency.

Can you explain why Thailand would need any other source of foreign currency other then the open exhanges?

If you need dollars or euros in todays world, you just go buy them, why would they need tourist to bring them into the country?

TH

There is a difference between buying foreign money and selling goods and getting it.

There is a profit-marginal involved that increases the nations wealth.

[frankman]

Respect has to be earned!!!

It doesn't come by birth, 

if you are thai

or,

any other nationality!

[hansum]

This thread really is beyond asinine. The OP makes the absurd claim that Thai's are nationalistic with not one iota of proof.

Is playing the national anthem twice daily not even a little nationalistic.

[angiud]

Chauvinists?

[IMA_FARANG]

The myth that Thailand depends upon tourists for the majority of it's economy is simply not true.

My Thai girlfriend's youngest son drives a tuk-tuk. At least 90 percent of his customers are Thai. Her daughter has a market stall selling costume jewelry and hair pins. She rarely sees a non-Thai customer. Most are Thai university students (mainly due to her stall's location). The oldest son works for a company that organises displays and

exhibitions often in shopping malls and stores. The company does have some non-Thai clients,but at least 80 percent of the goods they pitch are either Thai or from a Thai owned company.

Outside of some Farang ghetto areas (i.e. Sukhumvit Road and such)there are many areas in Bagkok where you rarely even see an non-Thai (except in the department stores of shopping malls). My family lives not far from Don Muang. I have spent two weeks there on vacation many times. I almost never see a tourist or even a Farang (except as I said in the shopping malls).

Farangs continously overestimate their contribution to the Thai economy. I personally don't think it is more than 15 percent even with the collateral add-on industries. Outside of some tourist heavy areas, tourisim has almost no impact on the economy of that area. (Don't believe me? When was the last time you went as a tourist to Rayong?).

[DP25]

Correction: 20/25%.

Even that is a ridiculous number. Thailand's economy is almost $300 billion per year, that would mean they are underestimating the amount of tourist revenue by $50 or 60 BILLION dollars per year. They know how many people come each year, how long they stay, and roughly how much they spend per day. Their figure is gonna be about right even if they're a bit off. Some people dramatically overestimate it's importance, especially those who've only been to Pattaya or Phuket.

[Heng]

I find it ironic that many of those claiming that the country is nationalist and xenophobic, on this thread and others, are the same ones telling us that tourism makes up a larger percentage of the country's income than the official figures state.

It's kind of like crack addicts thinking they should have a say in Colombian politics and foreign policy just because they think they are the most important yayo demographic (which they aren't).

I do sympathize with these folks though: if you were limited to working in a handful of occupations (unless you're actually in demand because you have unique skill sets) and could only own property through shaky loopholes, it might do a bit of damage to that part of your ego that asks 'am I needed? am I wanted for anything more than pushing this cart around Tesco-Lotus/taking the place of the welfare dept. for country families/they don't even ask me to spell check anything even though I could really be good at that...'

It's a basic psychological need that local legislation takes away from a lot of people (just about everyone besides the independently wealthy). Thus the need to attempt to quantify one's self worth, even if it's by using one's entire demographic (tourists) as a proxy.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Heng

[nontabury]

Same Same.

You'll struggle to find a Scot that says they like the English, regardless of how many English friends he has, and how long he's worked there.

SC

But surely that's got to do with with all scots having a chip on their shoulder

[mahtin]

It's a basic psychological need that local legislation takes away from a lot of people (just about everyone besides the independently wealthy). Thus the need to attempt to quantify one's self worth, even if it's by using one's entire demographic (tourists) as a proxy.

Who needs a saber when a foil is so accurate?

[buddy]

There's a world of a difference between being patriotic and nationalist.

Despite the OP's assertions, most Thais I know are what I would call Patriotic, I know a few nationalist Thais but only a very few. This may seem surprising given the influence the military have on the Thai school curriculum but I think the truth is most Thais see their family as the center of the world and Thailand something secondary.

The OP alludes to land/property/business rights and confuses this with Nationalism. Yes the Thailand's business and political elite call to nationalism when arguing for Thai only ownership of land and property - but that is the argument they, the elite, make to justify the restrictions which do nothing other than serve their own interests.

Many of Thailand's richest families have got to be so on the back of laws restricting foreign ownership of land/property/businesses - Owning the land and controlling shares in franchises they control access to the market and reap in the benefits. Fair enough you might argue, but when you look at the detail it is a very very small group of people controlling huge swathes of foreign business access - The same names over and over again.

The part ordinary Thais play in this is to rise with nationalist indignation anytime the suggestion that foreigners should be able to bypass the elite megga wealthy Thais.

Spot on!

[hansum]

Correction: 20/25%.

Even that is a ridiculous number. Thailand's economy is almost $300 billion per year, that would mean they are underestimating the amount of tourist revenue by $50 or 60 BILLION dollars per year. They know how many people come each year, how long they stay, and roughly how much they spend per day. Their figure is gonna be about right even if they're a bit off. Some people dramatically overestimate it's importance, especially those who've only been to Pattaya or Phuket.

But according to their figures tourism employs 20% or so, so its quite important im sure youd agree.

[Heng]

It's a basic psychological need that local legislation takes away from a lot of people (just about everyone besides the independently wealthy). Thus the need to attempt to quantify one's self worth, even if it's by using one's entire demographic (tourists) as a proxy.

Who needs a saber when a foil is so accurate?

[Chunky1]

There is a how much do you spend a month thread listed below this one that casts doubt on the farangs spend $60 billion/year in Thailand hypothesis, or perhaps Thai Visa is just over represented by the 1,500 baht a month studio apartment brigade.

[Berkshire]

This thread really is beyond asinine. The OP makes the absurd claim that Thai's are nationalistic with not one iota of proof.

Is playing the national anthem twice daily not even a little nationalistic.

Only if every Thai stops what they're doing and stands at attention twice a day. You're engaging in what I would call "grasping at straws." Don't try to find something that's not there.

[007]

The percent should be for sure doubled due to the huge underground economy fueled by tourists (prostitution, tax evasion, etc). I can see here in KPG that most of the small, medium and some of the big tourist-related business pay peanuts as tax

I agree, and wonder whether all the transfer wires from Westerners to their tee-ruks in Thailand are included in the figure of 6%. Also, how about foreigners' expenditure on prostitution: in order to be included in the official figure, the money would have to be declared by the pros.., erm service girls and then taxed by the government, right? How often does that actually happen?? Edited June 25, 2010 by 007