Tourist's Arrest Scary Experience

[OlRedEyes]

I didn't know that "ignorance of the law" was considered to be an adequate defense.  God-willing, "intimidated tourist" and daughter will find another country in which to break the law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought it was common knowlege that the legal age for drinking here is 20, just like it is in the US. Oh and btw they drive on the left here. And the power is 220V 50HZ. [mostly...] Oh and guess what - you can be thrown in jail for being drunk or possessing alcohol in some muslim countries. Or even caned for doing graffiti in Singapore...

Anyone who goes to a foreign country and claims ignorance of even the most basic things about that country is, well, ignorant!

As for not understanding what she had to sign, did she never think of calling a translator? There's thousands of them in BKK. The mother had to wait an hour and a half - plenty of time to find one. Call the embassy for a start, if you don't have the number of one handy. Again, basics.

The legal age for entrance is clearly displayed at almost all pubs, discos etc - written in plain English and Thai usually. Maybe she went to one that didn't happen to have such a sign, but the OP doesn't say how long she had been in TH - surely she had seen at least one such sign at another place? Then going on to say the pub owner should be responsible - well he probably is about to be shut down for 30 days and/or fined...

Sounds like the mother is looking for anyone to blame except her precious little daughter - what a great example to set, instead of teaching her to be responsible for her own actions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The legal age for drinking in the US is 21 NOT 20

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

oh yes - my mistake.

sorry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I rest my case. No tourist will know the laws of every country visited. Most countries I know the legal age is 18. Combine that with the number of young local girls drinking in the bars, I would not have thought at 19 your breaking the law. And i've been around Thailand for 12 years. And I know we drive on the left, and the voltage is 220V. But with all your 'holier than thou' sarcasm you still got irt wrong

[ZZZ]

I thought that there was a law passed a few years ago that all bars must have a sign displaying the age limit and that no drugs are allowed?

[OlRedEyes]

Reading these posts I am amazed.. Yea i say, amazed

Few seem to be able to see the bigger picture.... Yea she broke the law. But:

Tourist # are falling for many reasons, economy going down, authorities trying desperately to get tourist #'s up.

Treating tourists a little kinder would help. Piss tests, overcharging, arrests, agression and extortion will simply result in less tourists. Go figure.

Bird flu, tsunamis, ghosts........

Murdered tourists.

Low quality service. Buses driving around minus one wheel, machetis on tourist buses.

English is an international language. In a country which markets itself as a major tourist destination one would expect one english speaking cop in any station. Nobody expects Xhosa-speaking cops.

Try and see further than one detail at a time, and the picture don't look so good ja? Surely that is exactly the job of the 'authorities'

/Rant

[kreon]

However, it does sound as if they were treated badly, whenever a forigner is arrested, it should be routine that a tourist policeman and an interpreter are present before any signing of decuments etc.

i agree, as a foreigner you should never be harrassed to sign, also as far as i know, tourist police must be present, and don't forget your lawyer  

It's interesting to see how many of you say that the tourist police should be involved.

I know quite a few Thai people who work at the airport and through their job often have to deal with difficult (and sometimes aggressive) foreigners. I asked them why they didn't get help from the tourist police only to be told that "the tourist police cannot speak English. All they can do is stand and stare". If this is true then I don't see what help they can be.

foreigners are aggressive and difficult the world over, try new york airport

Tourists, you are wanted in Thailand, honest! Just don't step slightly out of line or else.

Correction: Tourists, you are NOT wanted in Thailand but we DO WANT your money.

that's balloney, thailand depends on tourist dollars, like any other tourist destination around the world

These same Thai people have used very similar words to me " We don't like you foreigners, but we like your money"

that's news to me, try the europeans and see if they like the foreigners, yes, i may agree they don't like the sex tourists, but that's a different matter

I am sure that in the above case the police were hoping for some kind of extra money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yes, try to pay bribe in singapore and you get 10 lashes with a whip, one minute you critise his lack of thai law knowledge, and now you want him to offer bribes

petedk - not sure who you associate with, but I for one know I am welcome as many of my mates who work/live in thailand. It's how you act and behave that makes a difference to thai people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

brit, i concur with that one

Hear, hear, Britmaveric.  I was thinking of an appropriate response to peterdk's comments, and you hit the nail on the head.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[moebius]

Reading these posts I am amazed.. Yea i say, amazed 

Few seem to be able to see the bigger picture.... Yea she broke the law. But:

Tourist # are falling for many reasons, economy going down, authorities trying desperately to get tourist #'s up.

Treating tourists a little kinder would help. Piss tests, overcharging, arrests, agression and extortion will simply result in less tourists. Go figure.

Bird flu, tsunamis, ghosts........

Murdered tourists.

Low quality service. Buses driving around minus one wheel, machetis on tourist buses.

English is an international language. In a country which markets itself as a major tourist destination one would expect one english speaking cop in any station. Nobody expects Xhosa-speaking cops.

Try and see further than one detail at a time, and the picture don't look so good ja? Surely that is exactly the job of the 'authorities'

/Rant

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well a good rant is always a good rant.

As far as I know most countries choose or have their own official language. Most people visiting or residing in these countries tend to be aware of that. English may be used worldwide in business but is far from being mandatory in many other functions, including day to day life. However, since English speakers maintain an arrogant stance about usage and it is likely it will continue to spread, your suggestion about every police station having an English speaker on staff has it's financial and logistical drawbacks to be considered.

Cops don't have a lot of money for private lessons and day to day usage has to be high. So encourage the police to have much more contact with foreigners on a daily basis. Hang out on Koh San, Nana, Patpong and chat it up. Maybe even come to all those expat socials as 'observers.'

And what about Mandarin? Spanish? French? German? Russian? Japanese? Could make for an interesting dynamic.

A cheaper alternative is to issue the police the right to sequester Thai-speaking expats out of bed in the middle of the night to explain to people they are in a another country. A sovereign one at that. If you have a valid visa and/or work permit maybe you could get a discount on your next one, or get a 30/60/90 day stamp as a gratuity for country service. This could all easily be outlined in a Thai form you are required to sign to get your papers.

But if you really wanted to avoid all that...

Thailand is a lot like many other places. You can tell by the treatment you are receiving how much trouble you are in.

Here's a handy travel guide to dealing with officials:

Should you find yourself.... It means....

Laying or sitting unblindfolded, unaccompanied in the back seat: good.

Laying or sitting unblindfolded, accompanied in the back seat: not good.

Face down in the back of a truck with a boot resting on your head means: somewhat in trouble.

Face down in the back of a truck with others piled on top of you means: taken for questioning.

Face down in the back of a truck with you piled on top of others means: mistaken identity.

Face up on your back in any official marked vehicle: friendly misunderstanding

Face up on your back in an unmarked vehicle: local misunderstanding

Face up on your back in the boot of a marked car: making social stops on the way to the station.

Face up on your back in the boot of an unmarked car: fine is negotiable but sitiation unfavorable.

Face down in the boot of any car: situation extremely unfavorable though usually not long lasting.

Short walk down a dark lane: physical contact may occur. (Applies to many countries including the US, UK, and Europe.)

Going for a drink with an officer - they drink: Buy the drinks, give them your girlfriend.

Going for a drink with an officer - they don't drink: Buy them a car.

Knock on your door in daytime - packing allowed: situation favorable.

Knock on your door in daytime - no packing allowed: situation not favorable.

Knock on your door in the middle of the night: situation unfavorable and they always lose your luggage.

Now all of these categories have options depending on what type of uniform or garb the enforcing officer(s) are wearing.

A simple color code helps:

Drab local police: inexpensive, short term discomfort may apply.

Colorful local police: more expensive, short to medium term discomfort may apply.

Drab military: inexpensive, can be physically challenging, infrequent death may occur.

Colorful military: expensive, physically and mentally challenging, sometimes fatal.

Drab civilian: expensive, physically and mentally challenging, uncomfortable, commonly fatal.

Well dressed civilian: all of the above, commonly fatal and/or death by bureacracy.

I hope that helps.

If you require any further or immediate assistance please contact your local embasssy or consul during regular business hours or leave a brief message.

[Bluffer]

<Off-topic discussion. Please report posts in violation of forum rules to moderators, and do not take the bait of lurking trolls. Thank you. /Meadish>

Edited July 13, 2005 by meadish_sweetball

[p_brownstone]

<Reference to troll post removed. /Meadish>[/b]

<snip>

Yes it made me very uncomfortable but I did not want to drag the Thread off Topic.

<Thank you for not dragging the topic out into the wilds, and for reporting such posts to moderators next time. /Meadish>

Patrick

Edited July 13, 2005 by meadish_sweetball

[ChiangMaiThai]

I didn't know that "ignorance of the law" was considered to be an adequate defense.  God-willing, "intimidated tourist" and daughter will find another country in which to break the law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its attitudes like this that make me feel like smacking the poster in the head. There are thousands of 19 year old girls drinking and spreading their legs in establishments across the city. The police do nothing. But its of upmost importance that this 19 year old tourist be taken to jail. Utter bullsxit. If anything, the bar owner should be fined.

[OxfordWill]

Sounds like the police did their job, were civil/polite and I feel sorry for them being put in that position by a careless father and a naive daughter.

Let's not forget the outcry when the police are corrupt in a way which negatively affects us; we should be happy when they actually follow through with the law to the letter now and then.

Edited July 13, 2005 by OxfordWill

[bangkokblue]

I didn't know that "ignorance of the law" was considered to be an adequate defense.  God-willing, "intimidated tourist" and daughter will find another country in which to break the law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its attitudes like this that make me feel like smacking the poster in the head. There are thousands of 19 year old girls drinking and spreading their legs in establishments across the city. The police do nothing. But its of upmost importance that this 19 year old tourist be taken to jail. Utter bullsxit. If anything, the bar owner should be fined.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on CMT. Would be know 'all's the world's full of them. I can only guess they know so much only through having read about the missfortune of others.

[dl48]

From Bangkok Post's Postbag:

Tourist's arrest scary experience

My daughter and I came from Singapore for a holiday in Bangkok. On Friday, my daughter went to meet a friend on Silom Road Soi 4 at 11.15pm.

At about 11.40pm, she called me for help. She was arrested by police for being underage in a pub. She is 19 years old and she is not underage to drink in Singapore.

At 12.15am, I arrived at Bang Rak police station and found her in police custody. I explained to the police officer that she was a tourist who did not know the age limit for visiting a pub was different from Singapore and therefore she should not be held in custody.

The police officer replied that she was in Thailand and therefore she should know the Thai law.

The police officer told me to wait for the paper work to be processed to allow me, as a parent, to bail her out. And I waited until 1.30am before an officer came with forms for my daughter to sign.

She signed the form without understanding what was written on it because it was written in Thai. I was asked to sign some statements without understanding what was written in the statement because it was also written in Thai.

I was eventually allowed to take her home at 1.45pm.

This was a horrible experience for me and my daughter. The incident raises a number of questions about how the Thai police and Thai laws can live up to the Amazing Thailand image the Thai government is trying to sell to tourists:

1) If my daughter had been in Bangkok by herself, what would the police do to her if no one could bail her out, bearing in mind there are many 19-year-old tourists like her visiting Thailand?

2) Why should a tourist like my daughter be arrested at a pub where the legal age limit is not displayed or enforced at the pub entrance? It is necessary because the legal age for visiting a pub varies from country to country and the Thai police should not expect tourists to know the law when they arrive in Thailand. Should the pub owner not be held responsible for enforcing the law rather than arresting tourists for not knowing Thai law?

3) Why was the incident not handled by the tourist police? My daughter was terrified by the actions of the Thai-speaking police officers, who could not understand her or explain the charges to her. She could only communicate with other offenders already in police custody who told her the police were going to put them in jail.

4) Is it a practice of Thai police to force tourists in custody to sign Thai language documents, which they do not understand, as a condition for their release? The incident would have been less intimidating if the police had not forced us to sign Thai documents without any translation.

I believe the authorities should do something to safeguard the interests of tourists and help the police uphold the image of Amazing Thailand.

AN INTIMIDATED TOURIST

--Bangkok Post, Postbag, 2005-07-11

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With regard to the above,, whilst i agree the incident should have been handled better by the Tourist Police,, it is still the responsibilty of the person concerned to to find out BEFORE entering another cuontry what laws such as drinking in pubs, etc and how they could affect you ,,, Regards Davey...

[bangkokblue]

Davey, You must have viewed the world from under a backpack your sure as dammit slip up one day. And by the way, there are two laws in los as there are in other 3rd world countries so i suggest you not hang around.

[OlRedEyes]

Must find a Lonely Planet... I suppose they tell you in that. High adventure by tourist map

[Rumpole]

I didn't know that "ignorance of the law" was considered to be an adequate defense.  God-willing, "intimidated tourist" and daughter will find another country in which to break the law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Along with quite a few others who hear about this story, I would think. What about the Thai bar owner also breaking the law by serving a minor? Or doesn't that count, because he's a Thai?

[moebius]

Sounds like the police did their job, were civil/polite and I feel sorry for them being put in that position by a careless father and a naive daughter.

Let's not forget the outcry when the police are corrupt in a way which negatively affects us; we should be happy when they actually follow through with the law to the letter now and then.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ditto

[dr_Pat_Pong]

If the cops overlook an offence they are crooked. If they go by the book they're bastards. Kinda a lose lose situation for 'em. <_

[carlthailand]

I agree with a lot of the posts here. You are in their country YOU should abide by their laws. I think whinging abt it on TV and in The Bangkok Post only makes farangs look stupid. Well, this person in particular. What if the shoe was on the other foot with a Thai breaking the law in your country would you be so forgiving???

My 2bht

Carl

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I agree with a lot of the posts here. You are in their country YOU should abide by their laws. I think whinging abt it on TV and in The Bangkok Post only makes farangs look stupid. Well, this person in particular. What if the shoe was on the other foot with a Thai breaking the law in your country would you be so forgiving???

My 2bht

Carl

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So true. Adjustable opinions

[TokyoT]

If the cops overlook an offence they are crooked. If they go by the book they're bastards. Kinda a lose lose situation for 'em. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And if they take a bribe they are crooked bastards.

So really it is a lose, lose, lose situation.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

That's about the size of it.

[SweGuava]

I agree with a lot of the posts here. You are in their country YOU should abide by their laws.

Of course we shall abide to the Thai laws when in Thailand, but, you can't possibly know each and every one. Using common sense is often a good way, but I don't see how she could know that she was illegally entering a pub if there is no sign outside telling the legal age, and nobody checking ID's, just letting her in.

In my opinion it must be up to the establishment to clearly state what the age limit is, and also to check customers ID's at the entrance.

I think whinging abt it on TV and in The Bangkok Post only makes farangs look stupid. Well, this person in particular. What if the shoe was on the other foot with a Thai breaking the law in your country would you be so forgiving???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would probably not have happened in my country, she would have been denied entrance if she was under aged.

[deepdiver]

If the cops overlook an offence they are crooked. If they go by the book they're bastards. Kinda a lose lose situation for 'em. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

exactly... like everybody who's in jail is innocent !!! same story allover the globe ...

Edited July 14, 2005 by deepdiver

[Kerryd]

Along with quite a few others who hear about this story, I would think.  What about the Thai bar owner also breaking the law by serving a minor?  Or doesn't that count, because he's a Thai?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As many of us have heard (and read) over the past few years, when the police raid an establishment and find underage customers and/or employees, the manager (if he/she can be found) is often charged and fined, as well as the owner. Not to mention that they face the possbility of a 30 day or longer closure.

I watched one time as some Boys in Tight Brown were patrolling Walking Street. Just sauntering along, watching the crowd. As they neared the bar I was in, suddenly 2 girls took off out the back and scampered down the soi.

Spoke to them later, they were underage and didn't want to get busted (obviously). The mamsan fired them as soon as they went back to the bar (they found new jobs in an "Allah" bar, as the police apparently don't check them out very often.

Having said that, there must have been extenuating circumstances that the mother (and/or daughter) did not mention. If she wasn't picked up during a raid, then what clued the officer in, that she was underage ? You don't usually see them doing random ID checks on people in bars (at least, I've never seen it).

The daughter probably wouldn't admit to doing anything other than "having a quiet drink" with her friends.

And yes, there are numerous underage Thai people drinking and working in various establishments around the country, in violation of Thai law.

Does that make it OK for tourists to also break the law ? Shoplifting is against the law. If all your friends are doing it, and haven't been caught, does that mean it's legal for you to do it to ?

Anyone who travels to a foreign country and then complains that the laws are not the same as back home, should stay home. And before they start complaining about the "unfair" treatment they get from foreign police, they should take a good look at how the police in their own country act (towards their own citizens even).

How many other countries have a seperate Tourist Police agency, who are specifically supposed to watch out for tourists ?

Remember to, for every bad story, there is usually a good one as well, but they don't get as much publicity.

For example, the story of a guy who got into a disagreement with a Thai (can't remember the exact circumstances). The local police locked him up.

The Tourist Police came along (having been called by someone else). They got the guy out of jail, listened to his story, and arrested the Thai (it was something about the foreigner getting ripped off by the Thai guy, which led to the disagreement. The locals automatically sided with the Thai. If not for the Tourist Police, the foreign guy could have been in for a hard time (or a hefty "fine"), and the real culprit would have had a good laugh).

[COBBER]

Quite ironic that we have a Singaporean complaining about the harshness of the Thai justice system when in Singapore its only a few years ago that an American 14 yo lad recieved 4 strokes of the rotan for graffiti in a public place and its also a mandatory jail sentence for consentual adult oral sex.

[bartender100]

The USA is the only country in the civilised world that the law is 21,95% of countries are 18 or lower,so it would be a very easy mistake to make specially in a country like Thailand where the word sanuk used to to be used often.

[chuchok]

When Thais are born, they are 1 year old.So (Presuming that the Singaporians go by the Pommie system) this young lass is actually 20 under the Thai system.

[carlthailand]

I agree with a lot of the posts here. You are in their country YOU should abide by their laws.

Of course we shall abide to the Thai laws when in Thailand, but, you can't possibly know each and every one. Using common sense is often a good way, but I don't see how she could know that she was illegally entering a pub if there is no sign outside telling the legal age, and nobody checking ID's, just letting her in.

In my opinion it must be up to the establishment to clearly state what the age limit is, and also to check customers ID's at the entrance.

Well, TiT. Got to remember they run the country and not everything you do in your country means they have to do it in theirs.

I think whinging abt it on TV and in The Bangkok Post only makes farangs look stupid. Well, this person in particular. What if the shoe was on the other foot with a Thai breaking the law in your country would you be so forgiving???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would probably not have happened in my country, she would have been denied entrance if she was under aged.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably true BUT it wasn't your country.

Cc

[haha]

a long time ago, when I first started coming to thailand, I got arrested for gambling.

I was playing thai poker for 20 baht a hand. I remember feeling both shocked (to find that it was illegal in thailand), and stupid (that I got myself in such a situation).

I wish that there was some source on the internet which I could have read before traveling over here that informed me of the laws that I needed to be aware of.

....it would have helped so much.

....does anybody know of such a place on the internet that provides information to travelers on the laws that they will encounter in the countries that they will be traveling to?

some source which summarizes this info in a centralized database format for all countries in the world, and that is easily readable?

as I see it, such a source would be most welcome. and I would think that the person setting up such a website up could find it monetarily rewarding.

maybe somebody could get a grant from the government to set it up. maybe some students could do this. and get their masters degree at the same time.

hint. hint.

format could be something like the following:

name of country

drinking age?

gambling allowed?

age of consent?

smoking allowed?

crime statistics?

safe to travel to?

embassies?

etc.....

[ozzydom]

There seems to be a fair bit of the old "Holier than Thou" attitude among the posters here, the girl was obviously in the wrong place at the wrong time, big deal, a fair cop is a fair cop, do the crime ,pay the fine. get on with life.

I am sure not one of you preachers ever paid tea money or bar-fined an under-age (knowingly or not) b/g or broke one of the many laws of which we farangs have no knowledge. And little pigs sprout wings and fly.

[bangkokblue]

There seems to be a fair bit of the old "Holier than Thou" attitude among the posters here, the girl was obviously in the wrong place at the wrong time, big deal, a fair cop is a fair cop, do the crime ,pay the fine. get on with life.

I am sure not one of you preachers ever paid tea money or bar-fined an under-age (knowingly or not) b/g or broke one of the many laws of which we farangs have no knowledge. And little pigs sprout wings and fly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ozzydom, Your a guy after my own heart. But let's give the cop some credit he had a tough choice to make from the many ladies of the night, underage bar hostess, and counterfeit good pedlar's.