Sin Sot Psychology And Consequent Burnout

[TAWP]

(despite having been married once before)

Tell her that you have now become very Thai and would like to offer her the standard amount for a previously married woman...0 baht.

You offer of 40k baht is more than reasonable.

Edited December 13, 2010 by TAWP

[Loz]

every rose has its thorns. the rose is smacking the goods nightly to k girl you'd be ashamed to admit is younger than your own kids. the thorn is, like a 5 dollar who re you have to pay to play.

[craigt3365]

A lot of "experts" here saying sin sod should not be paid if she was married before. Not the case at all. There is a lady in my village who has been married before and recently re-married to another Thai man and sin sod was paid. OK, it wasn't a lot of money, but it was paid. And for the record, there have been numerous Thai/Thai marriages where I live, and all paid a dowry of varying amounts. The whole "it's a farang rip off thing" is nonsense.

Well put. It is a "Thai" thing, but one us farangs have a hard time dealing with. Most of the time, it is about face. Easy to pass along the dough and get it back the next day...everybody's happy.

Or if you are lucky enough to have found a rose, are well off, and she has a good family, what's the big deal? I hate to think how much I lost in my first wedding where I paid NO sin sot!!

[Mossfinn]

Don't know why I can never automatically quote OP anymore, but quoting:

Replying to the original post was disabled some time ago because certian respnders couldn't help themselves and copied the whole OP with a single word response, pretty stupid really, kinda reminds me of 95% of posts on this thread.

[PingManDan]

None. You were right the first time. It sounds exactly like she is selling herself.

Most Thai women sell themselves (anyway), just to hook up with a farang, trade body and sex for money or plastic card, Gik, or Mia Noi

[bifftastic]

Don't know why I can never automatically quote OP anymore, but quoting:

"But it seems that when my fiancee and I raise the topic between ourselves, I get really irritable. Why is this ???"

Probably because it goes against the way you were brought up. Years of being told what is normal and what is not. In terms of SinSot the western cultural norm and your Thai half's cultural norms are opposite. You've both been brought up or dare I say "brainwashed" (harsh?) by your environment.

I'm feeling really damned irritable, and we usually have no issues between us. I need to come to terms with her way of thinking. Any positive suggestions, anyone ?

Questions (of many)?: Ask yourself: are you simply letting your pre-conceived (and perhaps even prejudiced) ideas get in the way of a happy future? Are you more concerned with "winning" or building a future together. Are you thinking just "win" or "win-lose" rather than "win-win" as a partnership?

Suggestions: Talk it over with your intended. Explain how you feel. Your pasts are different, your future needs to be combined. In what ways will she compromise for your values?

To share a personal situation. To be honest I was also uncomfortable with the idea based on my upbringing. Looking back with hindsight, I certainly do not regret my decision in deciding this was not a "battle to fight" or continue to argue about. I answered the questions above for myself, even though it didn't feel quite right: heart vs head vs upbringing. In the end, I paid a reasonable amount compared to what my wife's brothers/sisters/cousins did.

Several years later if you gave me a choice between all the money I have or my wife and kids - it's a no brainer. As time goes by, the SinSot sum looks smaller and smaller, and not just becuase of inflation although that helps too

BTW Just because she's marrying a foreigner or just because she's been married before does not necessarily mean no Sin Sot. Look for what others did in the extended family as you best guide. Contrary to many on here Sinsot was not created to rip off foreigners. Although it has obviously been abused for that purpose quite a few times

great post there.

I guess it's about whether or not you can get your head around what your g/f seems to be thinking. Personally I don't try to understand what women think any more, it makes my head hurt

My g/f has been married before, we're planning to get married next year. She phoned her mum and told her she's getting 50,000 sin sodt to show everybody and giving back 30,000 the next day. The gold will go to the pawn shop so we can have a honeymoon.

I couldn't care less what has happened before or if other people think it's right or wrong. Same where I grew up, families expect a big church wedding with all the dresses. flowers, free food for people you haven't seen for years/probably won't see again till someone else spends £10,000 in one day.

Weddings everywhere have traditions. Some women's dads will be pissed off if you sneak off to the registry office, vegas, whatever. Some won't care as long as you're happy.

Don't sweat the small stuff. If you love her and want to make your marriage work, the work starts after the wedding.

Good luck

[fletchsmile]

Don't know why I can never automatically quote OP anymore, but quoting:

Replying to the original post was disabled some time ago because certian respnders couldn't help themselves and copied the whole OP with a single word response, pretty stupid really, kinda reminds me of 95% of posts on this thread.

Ah.. Thanks Mossfinn.

Just read your signature. Thanks for the reminder about Seonai. Thoughtful

[Tolley]

Don't listen to the cheap charlies.

If you got married in the west you would be paying plenty for reception so a samll amount for sin sod is neither here nor there and not worth even worrying about.

In fact 40k baht the figure mentioned is such a paltry amount that i would be tempted to kick in a little more!

I would however make sure I lived as far away as possible from all her relatives so that them visiting wasn't a frequent occurrence. (preferably live in another country).

[Tolley]

Don't listen to the cheap charlies.

If you got married in the west you would be paying plenty for reception so a samll amount for sin sod is neither here nor there and not worth even worrying about.

In fact 40k baht the figure mentioned is such a paltry amount that i would be tempted to kick in a little more!

I would however make sure I lived as far away as possible from all her relatives so that them visiting wasn't a frequent occurrence. (preferably live in another country).

Perhaps YOU don't understand. Show a weakness now, NEVER forgotten.

PS. Thais have NO idea what it costs in the west.

Sorry I don't consider this showing a form of weakness.

I think you are getting a little paranoid.

We are talking chump change here.

We are not talking millions of baht.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Tolley

[Tolley]

Don't listen to the cheap charlies.

If you got married in the west you would be paying plenty for reception so a samll amount for sin sod is neither here nor there and not worth even worrying about.

In fact 40k baht the figure mentioned is such a paltry amount that i would be tempted to kick in a little more!

I would however make sure I lived as far away as possible from all her relatives so that them visiting wasn't a frequent occurrence. (preferably live in another country).

Perhaps YOU don't understand. Show a weakness now, NEVER forgotten.

PS. Thais have NO idea what it costs in the west.

Sorry I don't consider this showing a form of weakness.

I think you are getting a little paranoid.

We are talking chump change here.

We are not talking millions of baht.

To the poor, 40K is their million.

Well part of the attraction in the first place of marrying a farang has to be in many cases increased financial stability.

That is part of the territory.

That is a reality especially where you are getting older men marrying younger attractive women. There has to be a trade off.

I am not saying that you have to cave into every demand that the wife or family of the wife make.

But if you can afford it then paying a bit of money at sin sod time surely is not an issue.

What you do after you get married in regards to any monetary demands is another issue and one that can only be decided on a case by case basis.

[transam]

Me, really not trying to be negative but l have witnessed what l preach and the results. The OP really must read between the lines and come to his own conclusions.

[Kwasaki]

Sorry pal I really don't see what your problem is apart from your fiancee's, what does she want you to do ???

Yawn !!!! and she said what ???

[Tonto21]

What ever you agree to or compromise on now, you are laying the foundation for your future.

Many posters will disagree with what I am about to say, however it has worked out for me. I don't think money comes into this (for the Op), its more to do with control or lack thereof.

You are stepping into a union where traditionally you have been brought up where you would one day be in control or at least have a 50% share of the control with your wife.

You are perhaps now recognising that decisions are being made without you and your opinion is not worth to others in your union what it is worth to you.

You may need to place your wife on side. She is marrying a westerner and she has chosen to do so in the same manner you have chosen to marry a Thai. There is no compromise there, this is what you both want. The compromise must exist on the parents side where they expect to maintain decision making power. Its hard work but you need to crack this or you will face headaches with interfering parents for the rest of your days - It is also the one sure fire way to either gain the true respect of your In Laws or destroy your relationship, a lot of it depends on the strength of your wife and the strength of her feelings towards you compared to her family.

Your wife needs to understand that a compromise exists on both sides but must also be prepared to choose you over her parents should it come to that. The parents will pick up on this and things may likely become easier between all of you once they have accepted this reality that you are the one in charge.

I was extremely stubborn with many aspects of my wedding, I often provided my wife with the explanation that I am saying no in some cases to plant the seed in her parents eyes that what ever decisions are made in the future, its down to us. After periods of tension there is now a very harmonious family relationship where my views are respected equally (and often more so)... Oh, and I gave sin-sod and it was all returned.

Very good point of view in my opinion.

A lot of people tend to focuses in on just the cash they stump up. The bigger picture is missed, as it were by the cash payment, and for some, (not all) your being weighed and measured by the family, not by just how much you pay, but how you pay and how easy you can be manipulated. In this, the wife to be, has her loyalty put to the test.

Many a mixed marriage has hit the skids, that would have other wise been good, due to the families meddling. The issue of Sin sod, is as much to do with mutual respect and position in the family as any money being paid.

Op, if you feel you have none or very little influence over you wife to be concerning her family, the family will push and push to get what they want, after all if there daughter dose not respect what you want why should they. I think you need to find out just where your wife to bes loyalty's are. Good luck, I hope it all works out and you both have a great life together.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Tonto21

[F1fanatic]

Precisely. I know a woman from Trang that married a farang (first marriage, no previous kids), and whilst I never asked whether he paid sin sod, they've been happily married for MANY years.

He doesn't pay the parents a monthly sum, but has helped out to ensure her siblings received a good education.

When one of her brothers tried to 'take the piss', she was angrier than her husband!

She's a lovely woman (and most posters know how I feel about the money-seeking type....) and works as a cleaner just to get out and bring money into the family when the husband is going through a bad time financially.

As for the poster - I think enough has been said about a woman that has been married before and cares so much about 'face'.....

[inzman]

My thai wife told me that because she had been married before, not sin sod was expected and none was paid. And the family still ove me. But I do help out frequently.

[Travel2003]

Most Thai women sell themselves (anyway), just to hook up with a farang, trade body and sex for money or plastic card, Gik, or Mia Noi

Hmmmm, sounds like back home.

Anyhow,

sad isn't it? Even before rest of their (OP and fiance) life starts, money is the main issue.

However, I did ask my wife back then, but she refused any money as she was divorced already.

But I have probably already spent +500K for the family.

Which I must add, I am happy to do.

[fletchsmile]

Precisely. I know a woman from Trang that married a farang (first marriage, no previous kids), and whilst I never asked whether he paid sin sod, they've been happily married for MANY years.

He doesn't pay the parents a monthly sum, but has helped out to ensure her siblings received a good education.

When one of her brothers tried to 'take the piss', she was angrier than her husband!

She's a lovely woman (and most posters know how I feel about the money-seeking type....) and works as a cleaner just to get out and bring money into the family when the husband is going through a bad time financially.

...

Nice post

[Heng]

If it's kept by the family (and therefore by the woman as well, probably no need to rationalize that they are separate entities... blood and water and all that...), then it's hard not to construe it as a sale.

If it's returned and all for show, then it's no different than any other ritualistic show of the woman's (and again, her family as well) 'value' like an engagement ring, big hotel wedding, etc., here or anywhere else. If she's unhappy with the amount, then offer an increase of the 'just for show,' portion. If she (and her family) are insisting that they keep it any or all of it... just keep on talking and ask them how this is any different from a sale?

Edited December 14, 2010 by Heng

[fletchsmile]

If it's kept by the family (and therefore by the woman as well, probably no need to rationalize that they are separate entities... blood and water and all that...), then it's hard not to construe it as a sale.

If it's returned and all for show, then it's no different than any other ritualistic show of the woman's (and again, her family as well) 'value' like an engagement ring, big hotel wedding, etc., here or anywhere else. If she's unhappy with the amount, then offer an increase of the 'just for show,' portion. If she (and her family) are insisting that they keep it any or all of it... just keep on talking and ask them how this is any different from a sale?

Interesting point Heng, but doesn't it actually prove the opposite? I thought most women kept their engagement ring, isn't that similar to a Thai lady keeping her sinsot (cash and or gold) and therefore a sale in your books

[fletchsmile]

I'm curious: for the camp that flatly refuses to pay SinSot as it's not their way. What do you do with your partner for other customs, and where do you draw the line?

Christmas - I guess you tell her not to buy any presents for you and your family, as that would be spending money on what is not historically a Thai custom. No buying Easter eggs. No buying fireworks on November 5th or 4th July. That's not her culture either. No Valentine's day - just commercial exploitation by Westerners. No Black Peter for the Dutch. No nice meal on thanksgiving.

And flipside again

No Songkran and water festivals for you. Wouldn't like to spend money on that. No Loy Krathong - let's face it you never get those coins back that you put in the banana leafs. No Candle Festival in Ubon Ratchathani, that's just burning money, no vegetable festival in Phuket, no Rocket Festival in Yastothorn- literally money up in smoke you never get back, no spending money on an elephant ride in Surin because they don't give you that back either.

All this celebrating only your own customs by yourself because someone else's costs a bit of money. It sounds a bit miserable to me

I hope you also flatly refuse to speak each others languages. People in the West don't "normally" speak Thai.

Must be very complicated if you have kids. What happens is it Thai cultural festivals with Thai mum, western festivals with farang dad?

Seems like a lot of circles to draw in the sand to me

[rgs2001uk]

I'm curious: for the camp that flatly refuses to pay SinSot as it's not their way. What do you do with your partner for other customs, and where do you draw the line?

Christmas - I guess you tell her not to buy any presents for you and your family, as that would be spending money on what is not historically a Thai custom. No buying Easter eggs. No buying fireworks on November 5th or 4th July. That's not her culture either. No Valentine's day - just commercial exploitation by Westerners. No Black Peter for the Dutch. No nice meal on thanksgiving.

And flipside again

No Songkran and water festivals for you. Wouldn't like to spend money on that. No Loy Krathong - let's face it you never get those coins back that you put in the banana leafs. No Candle Festival in Ubon Ratchathani, that's just burning money, no vegetable festival in Phuket, no Rocket Festival in Yastothorn- literally money up in smoke you never get back, no spending money on an elephant ride in Surin because they don't give you that back either.

All this celebrating only your own customs by yourself because someone else's costs a bit of money. It sounds a bit miserable to me

I hope you also flatly refuse to speak each others languages. People in the West don't "normally" speak Thai.

Must be very complicated if you have kids. What happens is it Thai cultural festivals with Thai mum, western festivals with farang dad?

Seems like a lot of circles to draw in the sand to me

Okey dokey, I will stick my head above the parapet, taking your points in turn, here we go.

I have nothing against sin sot per se, what I have issues with is what is passed off as sin sot onto gullible farangs.

Is the money for show only or will it be returned?

Will the sin sot be sent before the wedding to the girls parents, or given on the day?

Are bonds etc etc an alternative form of display cash, as I have seen at some weddings?

Is the groom expected to pay for the wedding also?

Who gets to keep the envelope money?

Is the groom now expected to send a monthly stipend to the girls parents each month?

Where do you draw the line?

What is the girl bringing to the marriage?

Of course all the above would be trashed out Thai style before a marriage ever took place, was all this also explained to the groom as Thai tradition?

Next up, what my wife chooses to do with her money is up to her.

I left all that crapola behind, or so I thought, however I have told my wife I dont clebrate Christmas, Easter or any other Christain festivities, and I didnt celebrate before I

ever came to Thailand, so I didnt give anything up by coming here. So as you say its not her culture and its not a culture I follow.

I did ask the wife to make her choice, of which occassion she wanted a present, New Years day, Valentines Day, Chinese New Year, Thai New Year, her birthday, wedding anniversary or Christmas, unlike some who are conned into buying 1 baht of gold on all the previously mentioned, because its Thai tradition.

Valentines day, well women are women, so I make the effort, I usually take her for a meal to her favourite restaurant.

I dont celebrate birthdays either, more commercial exploitation, however on my wifes birthday we go to her mothers where she does the Thai style of thanking her mother for giving birth to her.

Next up, Songkran, cant bloody stand it, case of beer and some dvds to watch and stay in doors for 3 days, mayhem on the roads with a bunch of pissed up drivers.

Loy krathong, done Thai style locally, is this actually a Buddhist festival or something else thats been imported?

The wife refuses to visit temples in Bkk, you dont need to be a rocket scientist to work out why, she prefers a couple of temples upcountry.

Next point, already mentioned, I dont celebrate any western celebrations.

Language, can read and write Thai, and speak enough to get most things done, that doesnt include discussions on the meaning of life, medical, legal or religious terms.

The wife is probably one of the better Thai English speakers out there, with a fine choice of vocabulary.

No circles drawn in the sand, its give and take, but the bottom line is its all to do with respect.

For the record as I have mentioned before, I paid no sin sot, the MIL didnt want to lose face in the local community by having the neighbours think she was poor.

Neither I nor the wife give her family any money each month, but the MIL is taken care of on special ocassions.

The wife dreads her mother coming to visit, its like a stand by your beds sgt majors inspection, as the MIL inspects the house to make sure its up to her standard, she didnt raise a lazy worthless daughter.

On her visits the MIL also bring me about 5 kg of massaman neua, she knows its one of my favourites.

If anything ever happened to the mrs, I will move in with the MIL or she can move in with me, smashing old woman who doesnt take any shit or suffer fools gladly.

Now flame away, must be doing something right, married for 16 years.

[fletchsmile]

..Okey dokey, I will stick my head above the parapet, taking your points in turn, here we go.

Only friendly fire from me

I reckon you're doing quite a bit right. You don't have any sons do you? as I've a couple of daughters and might need to go thru this again from the receiving end and other angles. Your idea of give and take + respect strikes exactly the sort of cord I'll be praying for when the time comes:)

[Heng]

If it's kept by the family (and therefore by the woman as well, probably no need to rationalize that they are separate entities... blood and water and all that...), then it's hard not to construe it as a sale.

If it's returned and all for show, then it's no different than any other ritualistic show of the woman's (and again, her family as well) 'value' like an engagement ring, big hotel wedding, etc., here or anywhere else. If she's unhappy with the amount, then offer an increase of the 'just for show,' portion. If she (and her family) are insisting that they keep it any or all of it... just keep on talking and ask them how this is any different from a sale?

Interesting point Heng, but doesn't it actually prove the opposite? I thought most women kept their engagement ring, isn't that similar to a Thai lady keeping her sinsot (cash and or gold) and therefore a sale in your books

If it's all kept as a family asset (as pricey engagement ring or even low worth wedding band ideally is), then IMO it isn't sale.

If the cash is spent on groceries, booze, and Fino's and Vigo's, it's not 'keeping it.'

Edited December 14, 2010 by Heng

[Bagwan]

I'm an old fashioned sort of a guy. I make no apology for that since I firmly believe that the world would be a better place if more of the old fashioned ways were still about. When I first married over half a century ago I was taken aside by the MIL's boy friend who said that as I was joining the family then I needed to know about the family internal politics. I stopped him right there and said that that was no business of mine and that I wasn't joining her family but that she was joining mine. 

Her mother who had all the charm of a puff adder, had tee'd off her husband so much that he left some time ago, so that she had taken on the role of provider and protector of her daughter. The wedding was 'making it official' that that role now passed to me. My new wife was leaving home just as brides have done since time immemorial. Any interference in our relationship from her family would be treated the same as that from mine. Ignored. If we felt that we needed advice and/or guidance then we would seek it from what we considered the appropriate quarter.

Roll forward 45 years and my attitude was exactly the same. My first serious Thai girlfriend told me that her family was seeking Sin Sot of 250,000 baht. I was adamant that not one sou would pass from my exchequer to theirs. I pointed out that I saw no logic in paying for the privilege of keeping her and her daughter from a previous marriage in a style to which they were not accustomed, providing access to medical care and facilities they could not dreaming of paying for and for financing her daughter's advanced education. I added that I had no problems in assisting her family if they fell on hard times which, seeing as they were substantial landowners up country, seemed remote. Having children so that they could sell them on seemed medieval to me. She negotiated with her parents and the price fell but I held my ground. I countered the argument that they were following Thai tradition by stating that I was not Thai, could never be Thai and certainly didn't want to be Thai. Would they prefer that I adopt Thai tradition by sitting on my ass while she supported me, drank too much and got myself a mia noi and a few giks? The last desperate offer was 25,000 which confirmed that my reluctance was justified. Her father finally stated that I would not be welcome in his home and I responded that he was not welcome in mine. The lady left in a big huff when she discovered that her share of the company which owned my house would not give her a controlling interest. The game plan was now totally clear to me. Phew, what an escape! I was heartbroken for oh, ten minutes or so. I wasn't particularly looking for a wife but did realise that it was a buyer's market. 

The question of Sin Sot never arose in the case of my wife of nine years standing. Both of us recognise that we are one half of a pair and WE have assisted the family by providing things that they need, which is often at variance with what they want. They have been conditioned not to ask for anything because the answer will always be a permanent negative but we are happy to listen to any problems that they have - we sometimes by our own observation identify difficulties - and where a cash input alleviates the situation are happy to ante up provided it is within our budget. They accepted my view that their way out of penury is by stint of their hard work and where possible we will provide any tools required. The results have shown that this philosophy works. Rather than rely on handouts they have acquired a goodly degree of self respect, and the respect of their neighbours. something not apparent in their previous way of life. 

Some might think that paying out up front and making clear that there will be nothing further down the line is a solution but my take is that human nature will scotch that notion. The million baht per village scheme shows exactly why. Why cannot parents be content and happy that their daughter will enjoy a life of privilege and comfort and that they will earn the respect of both their daughter and son in law - with possible fringe benefits?

[Latindancer]

Tell her that you have now become very Thai and would like to offer her the standard amount for a previously married woman...0 baht.

Ha ha....I like it ! Still digesting the other posts.......

[rideswings]

These sorts of threads appear time and time again.

If you are stupid enough to pay huge sums of money to strangers who frankly would not pee in your mouth if you were dying of thirst in the desert, by all means go ahead.

I could not agree more with this quote. I have paid sin sot, paid for my brother in laws (wifes brother) sin sot, and spent all kinds of money on my wifes family, I asked to borrow some money from my wifes family so that my wife could have a surgical procedure. Within one day the answer came back that they have no extra money to spare. They own around 30 rai worth around 3 million baht, they just harvested rice around 200 bags, but they just cant seem to find 20,000 baht to lend me so their daughter can get a life saving operation.

This has put things into perspective for me.I can only advise the OP that it is the beginning of a long and hard path when you agree under duress to give them money.

[TAWP]

I'm curious: for the camp that flatly refuses to pay SinSot as it's not their way. What do you do with your partner for other customs, and where do you draw the line?

The agreement should be that neither party has to do anything they are uncomfortable with.

[TAWP]

paid for my brother in laws (wifes brother) sin sot

WHY would you do that??

The only exception is the shotgun weddings (step-son made 15 year old girl pregnant, 'marry or jail') but there is no reason for you to fork out sin sot for OTHER men too.

Well, come to think of it...you could help me on my path to save up here...

[Mossfinn]

Don't know why I can never automatically quote OP anymore, but quoting:

Replying to the original post was disabled some time ago because certian respnders couldn't help themselves and copied the whole OP with a single word response, pretty stupid really, kinda reminds me of 95% of posts on this thread.

Ah.. Thanks Mossfinn.

Just read your signature. Thanks for the reminder about Seonai. Thoughtful

Hi Fletch, I generally keep out of the scrum in General, but sometimes decide to get involved in the ruck and maul, occasionally catch the ball in the 22 and try and make some hard yards.

Second thread I notice that I have stumbled across you trying to make sense to the disorder, deliberate misinformation and crass nonsense, but good to see.

I would like to see some fireworks like the dragon at Bilbos birthday, can you oblige?

Seonai, 18 months, hard to believe really.

Good Luck

Moss

[coolhandjoe]

£800 for his daughter and families blessing, just pay it and live happily ever after!

Make sure you draw a line under it though, then plead poverty in the future.