Volunteering At A Thai Government Department

[MartinThai]

Can anyone advise me about how to volunteering at a Thai Government agency? I have had a meeting with staff at that Government department and we have discussed employment conditions and details however, they only want me a day or two a week and the salary would not be all that wonderful.

After looking into the tax implications I'd rather stay outside the Thai taxation system. The remuneration would only be small and perhaps under Thb150,000 per year tax threshold – so even though at the end of the year my income would be tax free I'd still be required to be issued with a Tax ID Card and to fill out Tax Returns each year. At least this process would allow me to claim any withholding taxes taken out of my salary.

When last I met with staff to discuss the working arrangements, I mentioned about volunteering – the Associated Director was immediately interested. He called their Lawyer to join our meeting to take notes to investigate afterwards. Something was mentioned about a non-imm "O" visa category – there are many sub-classes. However, they were not beaming with confidence as a Government agency would not qualify in the same manner as does teaching at a Temple or school or an NGO – I will still need a Work Permit.

My job title is still not clear – maybe a Technical Specialist but as yet still not defined. Without going into specific details, that Government agency is involved in an area of expertise that was the mainstay of my career before retiring. Senior staff from that Thai Government agency visited my work-place in Australia years ago before I had retired - they were there attending to their regular business matters.

I mentioned in passing to their staff that retirement was just around the corner for me and that I had planned to go to Thailand – they said to keep in-touch. A few years later and now that I'm retired in Thailand (I am on a tourist visa considering which visa category to substantiate my longer-term stay). I have contacted the same senior staff (Associate Director level) at that Thai Government agency and they have made it very clear that they would like me to join their staff a day or so a week – or even just to be around when they need some guidance.

I'm fishing for ideas as to how I can do this on a voluntary basis – it would need to be water-tight in terms of legalities – they are Government and will not take short cuts; I'd need a Work Permit.

So, I come back to the question; how can I volunteer at a Thai Government agency and have the proper Work Permit to do so. A non-imm "O" seems to be the way forward but under some obscure category or arrangement. As mentioned that Government agency will not qualify in the same way as say teaching at a school or Temple or NGO.

Any input or ideas are really welcome.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Maestro
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[harrry]

Most of the time you cannot get a work permit on a retirement visa so this would require you to visa runs even if they could give you a volunteer work permit. Volunteering at schools and Wats als require a permit.

If you are under 60 working is better as it would qualify you for Thai Social security and the health insurance given is a good standby which you cannot get any othere way.

Edited December 19, 2010 by harrry

[MartinThai]

I'm not here on a Retirement Visa - I'm retired from working life in Australia but currently in Thailand on a tourist visa investigating longer-term visa arrangements.

But your point of Thai Social Security is an interesting consideration however, I would prefer to stay focussed upon my original objective.

To summarise - I want to voluteer at a Thai Government department (with the proper credentials, that is - the appropriate visa and Work Permit.)

I don't know the way forward.

Maybe it is worth reading my orginal posting to more clearly see my dilemma.

Thanks for your input.

[jubby]

I'm not here on a Retirement Visa - I'm retired from working life in Australia but currently in Thailand on a tourist visa investigating longer-term visa arrangements.

But your point of Thai Social Security is an interesting consideration however, I would prefer to stay focussed upon my original objective.

To summarise - I want to voluteer at a Thai Government department (with the proper credentials, that is - the appropriate visa and Work Permit.)

I don't know the way forward.

Maybe it is worth reading my orginal posting to more clearly see my dilemma.

Thanks for your input.

Can't you get one of the Government department people to speak to your local immigration on your behalf.

Just a phone call should get you started.

I'm not convinced these things are cut and dry. It maybe easier than you think.

[MartinThai]

My employer will be a Thai Government agency coming under the unbrella of the Thai Ministry of Science and Technology. Scientists from that agency visited my work place a few years ago - that is the Australian National University. I am not a Teacher; Lecturer; nor, Scientist - just an Engineer with substantial experience in the area of business with which that agency deals. They want me to be an advisor of sorts - to be on hand a day a week or as when required. They want to pay me a small salary but I don't want to get catch-up within the Thai taxation system - I'd rather volunteer.

So again my question is - how can I volunteer at a Thai Government agency with the proper visa and Work Permit.

Can anyone suggest a way forward, please.

Thanks for your interest.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Maestro
Deleted the part of the post that was in reply to a deleted post.

[ThaiRich]

Yes, I am seeking genuine advice and assistance. I didn't "go into details" as I considered those details not all that relevant. But maybe you are correct - the details may shed some bearing on someone resonding with good advice. Here are some additional details.

My employer will be a Thai Government agency coming under the unbrella of the Thai Ministry of Science and Technology. Scientists from that agency visited my work place a few years ago - that is the Australian National University. I am not a Teacher; Lecturer; nor, Scientist - just an Engineer with substantial experience in the area of business with which that agency deals. They want me to be an advisor of sorts - to be on hand a day a week or as when required. They want to pay me a small salary but I don't want to get catch-up within the Thai taxation system - I'd rather volunteer.

So again my question is - how can I volunteer at a Thai Government agency with the proper visa and Work Permit.

Can anyone suggest a way forward, please.

Thanks for your interest.

As Jubby posted "it may be easier than you think". This is correct. I bet a simple phone call from the head of the government agency you want to help, could clear everything up. You would be surprised how easy it is to get things done when the out come is to the benefit of Thais. The fact that it is Science and Technology is a plus. These are areas that Thailand is hoping to expand and is not on the list of forbidden work for foreigners. During my 6 + years in Thailand I have heard of immigrations going to schools and demanding to see work permits ect. NEVER heard of immigrations going into a government agency and demanding to see work permits.

Edited December 19, 2010 by ThaiRich

[samran]

I used to be a government advisor and I've worked with a number of foreign advisors who had work permits obtained for them by major government ministries. It is possible, so in terms of work permits, I can't see it being an issue.

The salary (ie 12,000 baht/month) won't qualify you for an extension of stay, but you can get a work permit for the 3 months of stay you have on each O-visa entry.

Suggest you speak to one of the forum sponsors (sunbelt) who can organise the work permit for you. However, you sound like a smart guy, and you will have plent of time on your hands, so organising one yourself is possible with a bit of leg work. It will also give you the oportunity to meet (and know) the key admin people around your department, who will give you all the necessary bits of paper needed to issue the work permit.

If you wanted an extension of stay - you could perhaps organise for the ministry to pay you a full time salary of say 50K per month, which will get you an annual extension of stay. You then 'return' the 38K to the Ministry, which they can use to pay other non-civil servant salaried Thai staff who are numerous in Thai ministries. The director of your department will definetly be able to source the monies for this, if he wants you enough.

One question - why don't you want to be 'caught up' in the Thai taxation system? As you said, you'd be under the threshold anyway. The tax system in thailand is pretty painless, straightforward, and in most cases efficient - much better than the ATO to deal with.

As others have said, formalising your poisition gets you access to the Thai social security system. It isn't Medicare, but nevertheless it is a solid saftey net to use along side private health insurance.

[jazzbo]

Rather than thinking in terms of working as an adviser paid or unpaid you might think in terms that you are donating your time and expertise ... you might then qualify for a 'Non-IMM B' visa as 'doing business' in Thailand which is a category that does not require a work permit.

... and before the boo-birds chime in I received two consecutive one-year Multiple entry 'B' visas on just that basis.

http://www.mfa.go.th...482.php?id=2492

[steve187]

Rather than thinking in terms of working as an adviser paid or unpaid you might think in terms that you are donating your time and expertise ... you might then qualify for a 'Non-IMM B' visa as 'doing business' in Thailand which is a category that does not require a work permit.

... and before the boo-birds chime in I received two consecutive one-year Multiple entry 'B' visas on just that basis.

http://www.mfa.go.th...482.php?id=2492

sorry i can not see where on the link you posted, it says that a work permit is not required, in fact point 3.1 states 'Upon entry into the Kingdom, applicant or his or her appointed representatives must apply for a work permit'

Am i missing something?

[MartinThai]

Thanks for some excellent responses so far. It was wise to add some additional details, it seems.

The ministry's Lawyer has already met with the Department of Labor and they have determined that the minimum salary requirements (i.e. the Thb50,000 per month income requirement to be issued a work permit) will not apply to incomes derived from working at a Government agency. In effect, it's an arrangement between me and that Government agency. The Department of Labor is certain to issue a Work Permit irrespective of income levels, in this case.

However, I'd rather stay focused upon the volunteering options for the moment for reasons that will shortly become clear. In terms of volunteering at a Government agency, it is an unusual activity to say the least. The rationale for volunteering (at a Wat; NGO; or, elsewhere) is to assist without placing a financial burden upon that organisation. A Government agency doesn't fall into the category to be benevently "helped out". I don't of any visa category issued by neither Immigration, nor any interest by the Department of Labor to issue a Work Permit to be "helping out" at a Government agency.

The reason I'm not keen to be involved in the Thai tax system is because that I will still need to draw funds from Australia to supplement the small income from within Thailand. As a tourist or non-working resident we are mostly un-interesting to the revenue Department. However, once Tax Returns are submitted an obvious question arises – "From where do the funds come which represent the difference between that small Thai income and my living costs (I most obvious have a more substantial lifestyle that what Thb150,000 per year will buy). That is basis arithmetic to any Tax Official processing that Tax Return. Their supervisor would expect it to be followed up, I would have thought.

Under the definition of a Taxable Person in Thailand I am liable of course for income from within Thailand but also liable for "…tax on portion of income from foreign sources brought into Thailand…".

There are many arguments as to whether I am simple accessing my savings, or, if truly an income being brought into Thailand. I'm sure there are expensive professionals who can assist however; I'm rather "simple" when it comes to financial instrumentation. I don't want to deal with Tax Treaties and demonstrating a non-income sourcing of funds together with dealing with Australian non-resident tax status issues. That is just a preference but not a hard and fast attitude.

But as some have pointed out that in formalising an employment position would result in accessing the Thai social security system.

Thanks for the really thoughtful responses, so far. I'm open to any recommendations and ideas so as to clear up in my mind which way to proceed. If it is at all possible to volunteer at a Government agency would be my first preference. Some responses are teetering into those domains of definitions and requirements under alternative visa categories - I can't help thinking this is where the answer may lay. As many have said that it may all be possible but just waiting for that "Uhha" moment when there seems a possible way forward.

Thanks again, and I'm much appreciated for your collective experience in these matters.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Maestro
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[lopburi3]

The 50k salary mentioned is for extension of stay by Immigration. Labor has no such requirement for issue of a work permit AFAIK.

There is no interest in tax of foreign savings brought into Thailand (and for most countries there are double tax treaties that would prevent such tax on pensions). Have not seen any reports of tax problems. And many have filed tax here and pay tax on investments and such. I do not know what tax issues Oz might have but do not believe it is an issue here.

[jazzbo]

at http://www.mfa.go.th/web/2482.php?id=2492 Non-Immigrant Visa “B” - (business and work) as above:

2.1(1) Foreigners who wish to work in Thailand must provide the following documents: - Copy of Work Permit

2.1(2) Foreigners who wish to conduct business in Thailand must provide the following documents: does not mention - Copy of Work Permit

[samran]

re: tax.

I think you are getting yourself concerned over nothing. As said, it is foriegn savings, which is tax free in thailand.

The Thai tax department won't care about savings....indeed Thai tax law is very generous in that it doesn't even tax foreign income, so long as it isn't bought into Thailand in the year that it is earned.

You'll be fine entering the Thai tax system.

And trust me, the more bits of official bits of paper you have in Thailand (including a tax ID, work permits etc) the better for making general life and interactions with officaldom.

Edited December 19, 2010 by samran

[Mario2008]

Volunteering for a government agency is no problem at all, might even make it easier. Immigration rules fully provide for people volunteering for the government. Also getting the work permit is no problem.

For volunteering you can get a non-O visa and extensions of stay if you have a work permit. With a letter from the government agency and a work permit application immigration will even convert your tourist visa to a non-immigrant visa.

Volunteering doesn't require you to show any income.

Question is if your really want to choose for volunteering instead of getting paid.

[MartinThai]

Oh, I see – so the Department of Labor are not so interested in the Thb50,000 requirement but rather it's Immigration who use those details in determining issuing an Extension of Stay.

Maybe the Associate Director (who I deal with) can convince the Director to come up with a K50 salary package for a few days work each week and give most of it to his other Thai staffing people and give me what I'm really worth – about Thb12,000 a month (for a few days work each week). But I really don't think that is their "style". They are engineering people and not all that creative in accountancy issues. They have never delt with foreignrs working there before. The Government agency where I will be working is quite new created only a few years ago.

So all I can expect is a statement of earnings each month of Thb12,000 which I will need to take to Immigration before the 90 day period stamped into the passport expires.

So they will give me a notice to leave in 7 days stamp.?

I am required to do 4 exits a year (each 90 day period) under the conditions of the original non-imm "B" visa. What if I'm lucky enough to get a 1-year visa back in Sydney; what does that maen interms of the requirement to depart each 90 days because I'm not earning the Thb50,000 is is that now irrelevant to report to Immigration each 90 days.

That is the next concept to digest (the 90 day visa-runs). So on my return to Thailand next year, I can expect to have a non-imm "B" visa stamped at the date of entry, and, a little later, a Work Permit. So I guess I must do the visa-run on or before the 90 day period stamped into the passport, or do I report to Immigration first who then determine whether or not to give me an extension of stay.? So what about the Work Permit – is that still effective upon re-entering, or do I need to get a new permit for the next 90 day period back in Thailand.

So after a year and I turn out to be everything that expected of me then perhaps I can complain about all these 90 day visa runs and suggest the creative accounting method to indicate that I'm actually getting the required Thb50,000 per month. Complicated isn't it.

The personnel staff where I will be working have never had foreigners working there before - so they are just as green as I and not much help at all.

So I am not as smart as one of the Ops suggested. !! - but with your help getting on top of it all, hopefully.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Maestro
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[Mario2008]

If you don't qualify for an extension of stay, you have to leave the country after 90 days. Because you leave the country, you do not report to immigration.

[Mario2008]

How ever, I'm not sure the income requirements will apply to you as you will apply under rule 2.3 (working for the government) and not 2.1 (working for a business). The income requirements only apply to persons applying under 2.1.

[Lite Beer]

Police Order 777/2551 that deals with extensions of stay.

Not sure what actually concernes you but maybe 2.3 or 2.27.

Police Order 2008.pdf

[MartinThai]

Yes, good points both ways – to work or volunteer. I will explore both before closing in on one of these options.

Exploring volunteering a little more for the moment; you Mario2008 mentioned that it is quite an easy process and not at all something new.

You mentioned about a letter from that Government agency – what typically would it say and who would be the audience (to whom would be addressed).?

I will be maybe termed a Technical Specialist or something along those lines – but this can change according to what the recipient would like to see stated as my work/volunteer function or clauses in the visa requirements.

I was a Technical Officer before before retiring, working at the Australian National University (A.N.U.) maintaining Scientific equipment that Thailand is now only starting to use. I have lots of experience in that area whereas the Thais none at all – I can save them a bundle in setting things up, and provide recommendations to streamline their activities. They want me around for a day or so a week, or on an on-call arrangement to consult when required. They said they would pay me however, I suggested a simpler volunteer arrangement, as it would only be a smaller payment in the order of Thb10,000 per month for a day or two a week - but who knows I maybe there everyday if things don't go as planned – I'm still exploring both arrangements at this early stage.

I am a sub-professional – not an Engineer – no university education - just a glorified Technician with an Engineering Certificate education and heaps of experience; if that has any bearing on visa applications. Senior staff from that Government agency have known of me for some years and their staff regularly visited my work-place in Australia (the A.N.U.) in the past.

So from what I have mentioned above, what would that letter say would you think, in terms of volunteering to satisfy the conditions of that visa category "O" – volunteer at Government agency in a technical advice/assistance arrangement.

Thanks for everyone's help – all responses (either way - about employment and volunteering) are helpful and welcomed – thanks again.

This forum may contain useful information for others also, I suspect.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Maestro
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[Mario2008]

The letter would be a simple letter, confirming that you will volunteer for their department, what kind of work you will do for them and for how many hours a week. (A minimum of 4 hours a week is required).

It also request for a transfer to a non-immigrant visa.

Best is to call immigration before you go to them to see which documents they will exactly need. That will vary per immigration office.

The same goes for the work permit. Call the labor office before, better still visit them. Your employer will need some forms from them anyway.

[jazzbo]

Before formalizing any agreement be it paid or volunteer, and especially as your position seems very loose and ad hoc, you might very well get a Non-IMM O or B visa from your home in Australia and just hang out for a while at the Government agency and decide whether this is something that you really want to do ... Nobody will likely bother you for 'kicking the tires' for a short period of time and you might come up with a better definition of your position and arrangements that you could otherwise obtain.