Thanks for the article TM.  Anyone who claims this has nothing to do with race, doesn't know the history of the United States and should refrain from making empty comments.

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My Sentiments exactly!

Glad you are finally here in this thread, Kat!

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Thanks Narachon. I thought this was a tough place to be a thinking woman, but it's also a tough forum to try and have a coherent and informed discussion about racial politics. I'm glad you're here.

Good to know we are on the same side... I just hate when race issue is used needlessly - in the end it really does dilute when real situations arise. We've have our problems in the UK, so its not dissimiliar to America.

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See Above - Kat and I are on the same page from her own mouth!!! We might not agree on everything, but we do respect one another!!

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I try to respect everyone who is respectful of others. Of course, I respect you, but we do not agree on everything, including your comments "- typic BS bringing race into this.."

"Kayne West is a democrat - typic BS bringing race into this. 70% of New Orleans is black therefore must be a race issue. This rubbish happened because the mayor and the governor (democrats btw) had no emergency disaster plan in place. The muppet mayor was saying just tuesday that everything was ok. "

uhm, a diaster of this scale is beyond the emergency powers of city/state.  That is why we have FEMA and the National Guard, who took their time showing up.

And yes, Kayne West is a democrat, as is the majority of black voters in the United States.  Please don't attempt to try and tell black Americans/minorities about racial politics in America, ok?  Because in comparison you don't have a clue.

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Yes Brit, Kat can speculate on racial politics in the UK all she likes, but how dare you have the gall to do so on America

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You see that's the difference: when I comment on racial politics or anything else in the UK or anywhere, I don't need to speculate because I rely on history, the remarks of affected people, and current links to support what I'm talking about. Hence, my earlier remark about EMPTY comments

Hey, that's a high horse you have there

The better to look into your eyes, my sweet

I heard last night when I was up the pub, that some South American and Carribean countries (I think Honduras was mentioned) have offered assistance, anyone have information about this..?

totster 

Heard too that even the Froggies are throwing in a few francs...

Whoopie

Mayor of New Orleans, Ray Nagin Memorial Motor Pool. Hundreds of buses, abandoned and unused during the evacuation, now leaking tons of diesel fuel and motor oil into the already toxic water.

New Orleans was already a 'joke' before the disaster - what a hopeless basket-case...

Link

Some might ask if we can't take care of a major American city like New Orleans, what business we have "nation-building" elsewhere. Fix it at home, first...

FEMA obviously faces some major, major reform soon; hopefully with a few complaisant high-level bureaucrats being fired or demoted. For once.

"Steven"

And yes, Kayne West is a democrat, as is the majority of black voters in the United States.  Please don't attempt to try and tell black Americans/minorities about racial politics in America, ok?  Because in comparison you don't have a clue.

Kat - since I'm based in america I think its faire I can comment - and I'm quite well read on yank history, so that said I have a say in the matter.

It's quite obvious mayor and governor are responsible for this mess!!! BTW just finished watching news feeds and the rescuers aren't having alot of luck getting heaps of muppets to leave - told them no power, water or food for months if they stay.

It's quite obvious mayor and governor are responsible for this mess!!! BTW just finished watching news feeds and the rescuers aren't having alot of luck getting heaps of muppets to leave - told them no power, water or food for months if they stay.

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I wouldn't say they are entirely responsible. Mother Nature had a part in creating the mess in the first place, and it wasn't the governor/mayor that decided to found a city in a location that naturally sits below sea level.

Add to that the actions of some of the fine upstanding citizens of N.O., such as in this story :

Gunmen open fire on contractors

These idiots started shooting at a crew that was trying to fix the levees. Did they think they were in Iraq or something ?

It's quite obvious mayor and governor are responsible for this mess!!! BTW just finished watching news feeds and the rescuers aren't having alot of luck getting heaps of muppets to leave - told them no power, water or food for months if they stay.

Mother Nature had a part in creating the mess in the first place,

Junior's shortsightedness on the ole 'you know what' may have been a contributing factor in that

The better to look into your eyes, my sweet 

Hmmm, you're a hard nut. What's with the shades?

And yes, Kayne West is a democrat, as is the majority of black voters in the United States.  Please don't attempt to try and tell black Americans/minorities about racial politics in America, ok?  Because in comparison you don't have a clue.

Kat - since I'm based in america I think its faire I can comment - and I'm quite well read on yank history, so that said I have a say in the matter.

It's quite obvious mayor and governor are responsible for this mess!!! BTW just finished watching news feeds and the rescuers aren't having alot of luck getting heaps of muppets to leave - told them no power, water or food for months if they stay.

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And they will get food, power, water somewhere else if they leave (if they are *able* to leave???)

There are so many poor inner-city people in New Orleans that I'm sure the city was aware there was no way they could all get out- even if they had any idea where they should go (they're not rich enough to rent hotel rooms for a few months, after all).

This is the legacy of a generation of politicians railing against "big government": when government is finally needed, it is impotent to respond. Strange that we don't see big contractors stepping up to bat for the rights to take care of the citizenry there, now- would be a major public relations coup, what? I'm sure, though, that when government contracts come up for construction projects there after the flood, there will be plenty of interest in the money they can cream off the budget- no objections to "big government" then, I'm sure.

"Steven"

Add to that the actions of some of the fine upstanding citizens of N.O., such as in this story :

Gunmen open fire on contractors

These idiots started shooting at a crew that was trying to fix the levees. Did they think they were in Iraq or something ?

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Look at the bright side. That's 5 fewer sham trials and 5 fewer burdens to society that this city will have to deal with. Wanna behave like an animal, be prepared to accept the consequences. Good shooting and good riddance!

The better to look into your eyes, my sweet  

Hmmm, you're a hard nut. What's with the shades?

Forgot this:

Just read where it's expected that New Orleans will be 'shut down' (whatever that means) for 9 months and the folks still there are reverting to Tribes - like in olden times.

What a story...

I thought this was a tough place to be a thinking woman [/color]

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Meee-ow.................

This is the legacy of a generation of politicians railing against "big government":  when government is finally needed, it is impotent to respond.  Strange that we don't see big contractors stepping up to bat for the rights to take care of the citizenry there, now- would be a major public relations coup, what?  I'm sure, though, that when government contracts come up for construction projects there after the flood, there will be plenty of interest in the money they can cream off the budget- no objections to "big government" then, I'm sure.

"Steven"

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Right. Smaller government is only a euphemism for bigger corporate contracts.

The better to look into your eyes, my sweet  

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Hmmm, you're a hard nut. What's with the shades?

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Forgot this:

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I'm flattered you remembered

I thought this was a tough place to be a thinking woman [/color]

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Meee-ow.................

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Here is what famous author and New Orleans born and former resident Anne Rice has to say regarding why some people choose not leave New Orleans in last Sundays New York Times Op Ed piece.

(BTW, Anne Rice recently left New Orleans last April to move to California to be near her son.. )

photo by Chas L. Franck

Op-Ed Contributor

Do You Know What It Means to Lose New Orleans?

By ANNE RICE

Published: September 4, 2005

La Jolla, Calif.

WHAT do people really know about New Orleans?

Do they take away with them an awareness that it has always been not only a great white metropolis but also a great black city, a city where African-Americans have come together again and again to form the strongest African-American culture in the land?

The first literary magazine ever published in Louisiana was the work of black men, French-speaking poets and writers who brought together their work in three issues of a little book called L'Album Littéraire. That was in the 1840's, and by that time the city had a prosperous class of free black artisans, sculptors, businessmen, property owners, skilled laborers in all fields. Thousands of slaves lived on their own in the city, too, making a living at various jobs, and sending home a few dollars to their owners in the country at the end of the month.

This is not to diminish the horror of the slave market in the middle of the famous St. Louis Hotel, or the injustice of the slave labor on plantations from one end of the state to the other. It is merely to say that it was never all "have or have not" in this strange and beautiful city.

Later in the 19th century, as the Irish immigrants poured in by the thousands, filling the holds of ships that had emptied their cargoes of cotton in Liverpool, and as the German and Italian immigrants soon followed, a vital and complex culture emerged. Huge churches went up to serve the great faith of the city's European-born Catholics; convents and schools and orphanages were built for the newly arrived and the struggling; the city expanded in all directions with new neighborhoods of large, graceful houses, or areas of more humble cottages, even the smallest of which, with their floor-length shutters and deep-pitched roofs, possessed an undeniable Caribbean charm.

Through this all, black culture never declined in Louisiana. In fact, New Orleans became home to blacks in a way, perhaps, that few other American cities have ever been. Dillard University and Xavier University became two of the most outstanding black colleges in America; and once the battles of desegregation had been won, black New Orleanians entered all levels of life, building a visible middle class that is absent in far too many Western and Northern American cities to this day.

The influence of blacks on the music of the city and the nation is too immense and too well known to be described. It was black musicians coming down to New Orleans for work who nicknamed the city "the Big Easy" because it was a place where they could always find a job. But it's not fair to the nature of New Orleans to think of jazz and the blues as the poor man's music, or the music of the oppressed.

Something else was going on in New Orleans. The living was good there. The clock ticked more slowly; people laughed more easily; people kissed; people loved; there was joy.

Which is why so many New Orleanians, black and white, never went north. They didn't want to leave a place where they felt at home in neighborhoods that dated back centuries; they didn't want to leave families whose rounds of weddings, births and funerals had become the fabric of their lives. They didn't want to leave a city where tolerance had always been able to outweigh prejudice, where patience had always been able to outweigh rage. They didn't want to leave a place that was theirs.

And so New Orleans prospered, slowly, unevenly, but surely - home to Protestants and Catholics, including the Irish parading through the old neighborhood on St. Patrick's Day as they hand out cabbages and potatoes and onions to the eager crowds; including the Italians, with their lavish St. Joseph's altars spread out with cakes and cookies in homes and restaurants and churches every March; including the uptown traditionalists who seek to preserve the peace and beauty of the Garden District; including the Germans with their clubs and traditions; including the black population playing an ever increasing role in the city's civic affairs.

Now nature has done what the Civil War couldn't do. Nature has done what the labor riots of the 1920's couldn't do. Nature had done what "modern life" with its relentless pursuit of efficiency couldn't do. It has done what racism couldn't do, and what segregation couldn't do either. Nature has laid the city waste - with a scope that brings to mind the end of Pompeii.

I share this history for a reason - and to answer questions that have arisen these last few days. Almost as soon as the cameras began panning over the rooftops, and the helicopters began chopping free those trapped in their attics, a chorus of voices rose. "Why didn't they leave?" people asked both on and off camera. "Why did they stay there when they knew a storm was coming?" One reporter even asked me, "Why do people live in such a place?"

Then as conditions became unbearable, the looters took to the streets. Windows were smashed, jewelry snatched, stores broken open, water and food and televisions carried out by fierce and uninhibited crowds.

Now the voices grew even louder. How could these thieves loot and pillage in a time of such crisis? How could people shoot one another? Because the faces of those drowning and the faces of those looting were largely black faces, race came into the picture. What kind of people are these, the people of New Orleans, who stay in a city about to be flooded, and then turn on one another?

Well, here's an answer. Thousands didn't leave New Orleans because they couldn't leave. They didn't have the money. They didn't have the vehicles. They didn't have any place to go. They are the poor, black and white, who dwell in any city in great numbers; and they did what they felt they could do - they huddled together in the strongest houses they could find. There was no way to up and leave and check into the nearest Ramada Inn.

What's more, thousands more who could have left stayed behind to help others. They went out in the helicopters and pulled the survivors off rooftops; they went through the flooded streets in their boats trying to gather those they could find. Meanwhile, city officials tried desperately to alleviate the worsening conditions in the Superdome, while makeshift shelters and hotels and hospitals struggled.

And where was everyone else during all this? Oh, help is coming, New Orleans was told. We are a rich country. Congress is acting. Someone will come to stop the looting and care for the refugees.

And it's true: eventually, help did come. But how many times did Gov. Kathleen Blanco have to say that the situation was desperate? How many times did Mayor Ray Nagin have to call for aid? Why did America ask a city cherished by millions and excoriated by some, but ignored by no one, to fight for its own life for so long? That's my question.

I know that New Orleans will win its fight in the end. I was born in the city and lived there for many years. It shaped who and what I am. Never have I experienced a place where people knew more about love, about family, about loyalty and about getting along than the people of New Orleans. It is perhaps their very gentleness that gives them their endurance.

They will rebuild as they have after storms of the past; and they will stay in New Orleans because it is where they have always lived, where their mothers and their fathers lived, where their churches were built by their ancestors, where their family graves carry names that go back 200 years. They will stay in New Orleans where they can enjoy a sweetness of family life that other communities lost long ago.

But to my country I want to say this: During this crisis you failed us. You looked down on us; you dismissed our victims; you dismissed us. You want our Jazz Fest, you want our Mardi Gras, you want our cooking and our music. Then when you saw us in real trouble, when you saw a tiny minority preying on the weak among us, you called us "Sin City," and turned your backs.

Well, we are a lot more than all that. And though we may seem the most exotic, the most atmospheric and, at times, the most downtrodden part of this land, we are still part of it. We are Americans. We are you.

Anne Rice's books are good reads i.e. "Interview With A Vampire" etc. but in terms of New Orleans itself, it's needed a good 'clean-out' for a long time. The Port handles more cargo than Houston so it will need to get back on its feet soon.

New Orleans itself, it's needed a good 'clean-out' for a long time

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What does this mean ? are you saying it was deserved ? and that those poor people only got what they deserved ? and that it was good that the hurricaine "cleaned" them out ?

Do you believe in the Rapture "Boon Boon" Me ?

Anne Rice's books are good reads i.e. "Interview With A Vampire" etc. but in terms of New Orleans itself, it's needed a good 'clean-out' for a long time.  The Port handles more cargo than Houston so it will need to get back on its feet soon.

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Urban renewal, hurricane style.....great idea Boon Mee!!! The Bush administration could use you as an urban planner!!! I'm sure your idea here would mesh real well with all the other stuff they've got planned!!! Baghdad needed a good cleaning out too, don't you think?

Boy, talk about "The Thin Veneer of Civiilization"....I think Boon Mee's veneer has worn through in a few places.

New Orleans is a shi*e hole is what BM is saying - anyone who's been there will tell you much the same. I dont think he is saying that hurricane was a good thing for loss of life and displacing so many. This in the end will be good for the city sadly it takes a disaster for them to get off the pot and do smth about it.

Anne Rice's books are good reads i.e. "Interview With A Vampire" etc. but in terms of New Orleans itself, it's needed a good 'clean-out' for a long time.  The Port handles more cargo than Houston so it will need to get back on its feet soon.

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Urban renewal, hurricane style.....great idea Boon Mee!!!

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There is an old joke that goes something like this:

Did you hear about the hurricane that hit New Jersey?

No ....

It caused two billion dollars in improvements.

So not that I wouldn't want anything else than to have had this disaster never to have occurred, I gotta believe that a lot of people will end up better off because of it.

New Orleans is a shi*e hole is what BM is saying - anyone who's been there will tell you much the same. I dont think he is saying that hurricane was a good thing for loss of life and displacing so many. This in the end will be good for the city sadly it takes a disaster for them to get off the pot and do smth about it.

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Funny why of saying it, don't you think?

Some of these people have been without television for over seven days.

Some of these people have been without television for over seven days.

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That is a positive me thinks.....

Yes, I meant to put it in the 'Positives of the Hurricane' topic. (Dat was de joke)

I'm getting confused now, too many topics on this story.

And its not even Thai related.

Anne Rice's books are good reads i.e. "Interview With A Vampire" etc. but in terms of New Orleans itself, it's needed a good 'clean-out' for a long time.  The Port handles more cargo than Houston so it will need to get back on its feet soon.

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Anne Rice's books are good reads i.e. "Interview With A Vampire" etc. but in terms of New Orleans itself, it's needed a good 'clean-out' for a long time.  The Port handles more cargo than Houston so it will need to get back on its feet soon.

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Urban renewal, hurricane style.....great idea Boon Mee!!! The Bush administration could use you as an urban planner!!! I'm sure your idea here would mesh real well with all the other stuff they've got planned!!! Baghdad needed a good cleaning out too, don't you think?

Boy, talk about "The Thin Veneer of Civiilization"....I think Boon Mee's veneer has worn through in a few places.

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Actually, it's a lovely comment because it reveals the nature of his racism in no uncertain terms. He exemplifies the kind of people who vote for Bush. He knows it, I know it, and everyone who is affected by policies such as their's, knows it.

Boon Mee is also fond of oversimplifying the racist charge against the Bush administration in this diaster as a blind witchhunt. It is not the natural diaster, but the response to it. We have current events and ample history to make this case.

Anne Rice's books are good reads i.e. "Interview With A Vampire" etc. but in terms of New Orleans itself, it's needed a good 'clean-out' for a long time.  The Port handles more cargo than Houston so it will need to get back on its feet soon.

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Urban renewal, hurricane style.....great idea Boon Mee!!!

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There is an old joke that goes something like this:

Did you hear about the hurricane that hit New Jersey?

No ....

It caused two billion dollars in improvements.

So not that I wouldn't want anything else than to have had this disaster never to have occurred, I gotta believe that a lot of people will end up better off because of it.

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Actually, every urban renewal project was founded on the "cleaning out" approach, and has failed to solve the issue of urban ghettos. That's because urban renewal projects were never about solving problems.

Funny, you say that the billions of dollars are going to make it better, but it would have cost significantly less and saved thousands of people if W. spent the money where he should of spent it - on aging and poorly reinforced levees. There is no possible spin on the story to make it right, or to lessen the blow that George W. is the most incompetent president in U.S. history -- your president.

The BBC has just run a special from the USA disaster area using the same journalists who covered the Tsunami.

It was a chilling indictment of the lack of response from the responsible authorities.

The political and social consequences alone of these terrible scenes are going to enormous.

It is enough that black citizens have been forgotten and deserted by a government whose lack of concern is tantamount to gross negligence, and other disadvantaged are forgotten: hospital patients evacuated into the he££ of sports domes and left to die; prisoners locked in jails that are flooded; predominantly white police forces more concerned with their own safety unable to perceive the plight of the citizens they should "serve and protect".

However this storm has reduced all to the same level. Before being rich really meant something in the USA - the best services and facilities available only to those who had money - but now, with no electricity, no water, no gas, and no access to those large bank accounts or productive share portfolios - the rich are suffering too.

And amongst the rich are the articulate who can see all this and will express their unbelief that a nation so rich and powerful as the USA is unable to react in time with the most elemental disaster relief to an event taking place deep within its own heartland.

Each death through negligence and incompetence should hammer a nail in Bush's presidency deeper than any Watergate, Monica Lewinsky or the losing of the war in Iraq.

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Naive matey!!!

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Yes, rather a lot can happen in five days:

"Government at all levels failed," Susan Collins, a Republican on the Senate governmental affairs committee, said. "It is difficult to understand the lack of preparedness and the ineffective initial response to a disaster that had been predicted for years, and for which specific, dire warnings had been given for days."

The seriousness of the political storm Mr Bush is facing was vividly illustrated yesterday by an editorial in the staunchly conservative Wall Street Journal which warned "the aftermath of Katrina poses a threat to his entire second term".

The usually supportive editorial page concluded: "What's really at stake in the coming months is the Republican claim to be the governing party."

New Orleans is a shi*e hole is what BM is saying - anyone who's been there will tell you much the same. I dont think he is saying that hurricane was a good thing for loss of life and displacing so many. This in the end will be good for the city sadly it takes a disaster for them to get off the pot and do smth about it.

Thanks, Brit. Saner voices heard 'round here. That's exactly what I was referring to.

What with wind-up artests like the B-Fly & Stroll it's always interesting around here.

Back on topic: Looks like the blame lies squarely with the inept governor of Louisiana now. She and that corrupt Mayor of NO were in waaaay over their heads. Mike Brown should be run off too.

Back on topic:  Looks like the blame lies squarely with the inept governor of Louisiana now.  She and that corrupt Mayor of NO were in waaaay over their heads.  Mike Brown should be run off too.

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I was listening to American radio over the net yesterday and some talk shows claimed to be quoting from the NO emergency evacuation plan for floods.

They said that the plan was effectively that there was/is no plan. Everyone was responsible for evacuating themselves.

In other words, for all of the impoverished who had no vehicle or other means of evacuation, the city and state leadership purposely left them swinging in the breeze.

My only hope is that people will not only take more personal responsibility, but begin taking it at the polls next time and remember who it was that actually left them hanging.

Not to make light of the situation, but I think PJ O'Rourke said it best ....

"A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them."

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you ###### well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences."

"One of the annoying things about believing in free will and individual responsibility is the difficulty of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And when you do find somebody, it's remarkable how often his picture turns up on your driver's license."