Should There Be Tighter Restrictions On Thai Nationals Living Abroad ?

[mca]

IF (big if) you are legitimately married to a foreign national in many countries, then you have the right to stay in that country with your spouse and are often "fast-tracked" to citizenship. The only hoops required to jump through are usually just those to verify that the relationship is genuine. However, in Thailand and more particularly for foreign men married to Thai wives there are income and other restraints. Many countries are tightening up their entry requirements even for married couples but usually make it fairly easy to remain should you have a legitimate marriage. (no minimum income, no regular reporting etc ....)

2nd note --- it is easier for foreign women married to Thai men (I think)

I'd be pretty content even if Thailand did a sort of halfway thing regarding marriage. Sort of if you're married to a Thai female national and have had marriage extensions for 5 years r so ( sort of proving that the marriage is about as legit as it can be) then you automatically get a 3 year extension instead of only 1.

It is easier for foreign women married to Thai blokes to get an extension. They don't have to show money in the bank or proof of income. Don't know where the law stands on that regarding sexual discrimination but there you go.

So in your case jd your only options are through a wp or retirement if you're old enough?

Sorry. Just realised I used " sort of" 3 times in one sentence.

Edited February 24, 2011 by mca

[Jingthing]

I think this kind of reciprocation is a bad thing. For example, a number of countries are matching the visa fees required of their nationals applying for US visas to their visas for US nationals, mostly tourists. That means raising the tourist visa fees to be very high. I think those countries are crazy as it just means they are scaring away a huge number of potential tourists over a kind of temper tantrum. In other words, I think this pisses off many Americans. It's OK if the tourist visa fee is one fee for everybody, but if it's 10 dollars for everyone and 200 for Americans, a lot of Americans are going to vote with their feet.

i am quite content to pay 45 dollars to get into Laos, knowing that for a Lao National to even apply for a visa to Canada would cost exactly the same.it is only fair.

I consider myself lucky to have the access to the world that i do. It is not my right.

Whatever. I still think tourism oriented countries shoot themselves in the foot by "punishing" certain nationalities with higher fees. They should realize that there is a whole world of choices out there, and they are scaring away at least some free money. A good example is Chile, the most boring country in South America.

[jdinasia]

]

I'd be pretty content even if Thailand did a sort of halfway thing regarding marriage. Sort of if you're married to a Thai female national and have had marriage extensions for 5 years r so ( sort of proving that the marriage is about as legit as it can be) then you automatically get a 3 year extension instead of only 1.

It is easier for foreign women married to Thai blokes to get an extension. They don't have to show money in the bank or proof of income. Don't know where the law stands on that regarding sexual discrimination but there you go.

So in your case jd your only options are through a wp or retirement if you're old enough?

Sorry. Just realised I used " sort of" 3 times in one sentence.

I would say --- three years of documentation of your marriage (TM or MFA random visits etc) and then you are entitled to residency (free).

I have had (legit) ED visas sponsored by Chula for example, non-imm O's (multi), Non-imm B's (multi), annual extensions of stay from working recently. BOI etc are also options and in another 4 years I will qualify for retirement (and have the resources for that so NPAA (( and yes for my stalker out there I did a few TV's etc when I was too lazy to fly to Oz or the US or the UK.

[Forethat]

2nd note --- it is easier for foreign women married to Thai men (I think)

I know women who has managed to get Thai citizenship fairly easy due to their marriage to Thai nationals.

[mca]

]

I'd be pretty content even if Thailand did a sort of halfway thing regarding marriage. Sort of if you're married to a Thai female national and have had marriage extensions for 5 years r so ( sort of proving that the marriage is about as legit as it can be) then you automatically get a 3 year extension instead of only 1.

It is easier for foreign women married to Thai blokes to get an extension. They don't have to show money in the bank or proof of income. Don't know where the law stands on that regarding sexual discrimination but there you go.

So in your case jd your only options are through a wp or retirement if you're old enough?

Sorry. Just realised I used " sort of" 3 times in one sentence.

I would say --- three years of documentation of your marriage (TM or MFA random visits etc) and then you are entitled to residency (free).

I have had (legit) ED visas sponsored by Chula for example, non-imm O's (multi), Non-imm B's (multi), annual extensions of stay from working recently. BOI etc are also options and in another 4 years I will qualify for retirement (and have the resources for that so NPAA (( and yes for my stalker out there I did a few TV's etc when I was too lazy to fly to Oz or the US or the UK.

In my case there'd be absolutely no benefit whatsoever in your suggestion re residency after 3 years being implemented because if the government announced such a step I would die on the spot from shock.

[Max2010]

I see the ulterior motive in the OP's thread, but I'll bite. Every country has a right to create laws pertaining to foreigners that is both fair and humane, AND protects the interest of its citizens. If, say, the USA were to create laws that were detrimental to foreigners, Thai or otherwise, said foreigners have the option of residing or not residing in the USA. They understand the laws, they make the decision. Simple enough.

It is exactly the same in Thailand.

I agree with you Berkshire. I immigrated to Canada legally after my university education in Boston, USA.. However, as a new immigrant, landlords wanted me to have a job before they could rent me a place and employers wanted me to have a "Canadian work experience" before they offered me a position. It did not matter that I was a US educated MBA graduate with 10 years of management experience.( As a foreigner in the U.S, it is not as easy as it is portrayed here to live once "you are in". Work visas (known as H1B visas) are limited by the act of Congress and obtaining a permanent residency is extremely hard if you are not married to an American, have patient employers to file complex paperwork for you or worth couple of millions of dollars). I offered to pay landlords in Toronto one year rent to have my family live in a secured and convenient area but was flatly refused. I had no luck with meaningful job offers either. I came to realize that employers are simply fed up with new immigrants and prefer to hire locally educated workforce (no cultural problems, no doubts about foreign credentials presented, no accent issues?). Maybe Canadians are having second thoughts on accepting close to 250,000 a year while there are still thousands who are unemployed? I know many immigrants who are doctors and engineers in their homelands who deliver pizzas or drive taxis to make ends meet. Most universities have few spots to re-certify doctors, engineers and nurses from India, China, Philippines, Iran etc. Still, thousands of people immigrate to Canada yearly because it offers them a piece of mind and they can still prosper if they work hard with a bit of luck. Canadian passport is also one of the best to have since Canadians are very well liked around trhe world. I don't know about EU, but as a low income earner in Canada, I didn't get any special benefits/freebies like many anti-immmigrants here suggested. Housing, even in the ghetto areas of Toronto are higher than what I pay as a mortgage here in Japan, New immigrants do not qualify to get welfare anyway. So, it was not hard for me to make a decicion to leave. I never felt unwelcome, but i couldn't use my education and couldn't earn enough to live comfortably. I do feel fortunate to be able to travel hassle -free but i paid for this privilege with providing the Canadian economy with 7 years of cheap labor and taxes and $200,000 of my investment. I have no regrets.

Now, my question is, how many of foreign residents of Thailand here on TV would qualify to immigrate to Thailand on their own or with their families if Thailand decided to impose immigration rules of western countries? Canada only requires $300,000 for self-employed or $800,000 for investors and $1500 visa application fee per family member. Waiting period is anywhere between 1 and 5 years. Regular immigrants must pass medical, police clearance, age limited to below 40 and need certain 4 year university education and work experience and have $20,000 in their bank acocunts. Probably most tourists who come to Thailand every year will not qualify either if Thailand imposes the same draconian tourist visa rules western countries impose towards citizens of developing countries as Samran described it perfectly above. So, it is up to you, reside in your host country and deal with their rules and regulations, however meaningless, stressful and discriminatory or find a better heaven to park your hide. Your choice.

Max2010

[Max2010]

I do agree with much of this. Asia on the whole is immature when it comes to global trade and Thailand is certainly no exception.

I am pretty sure China and countries like Japan would disagree with you on that point....

I don't know "Soutpeel", but the fact that Japan is the top 5 most wealthiest country in the world might have something to do with their global trading. You have probably offended the South Koreans and China too but they forgave you because you let them buy chunks of your economy and debts.

Max2010

[Max2010]

BUT --- Thailand does make it rough on some people that are legitimately married to stay together here and that should be corrected.

Out of curiousity who would those some people be ???

IF (big if) you are legitimately married to a foreign national in many countries, then you have the right to stay in that country with your spouse and are often "fast-tracked" to citizenship. The only hoops required to jump through are usually just those to verify that the relationship is genuine. However, in Thailand and more particularly for foreign men married to Thai wives there are income and other restraints. Many countries are tightening up their entry requirements even for married couples but usually make it fairly easy to remain should you have a legitimate marriage. (no minimum income, no regular reporting etc ....)

Note --- being gay this just doesn't apply to me because there is no equivalent for gay marriage/civil unions here and I do not have issues with staying in Thailand even though I am below retirement age (employed director of a Thai company)

2nd note --- it is easier for foreign women married to Thai men (I think)

In Japan, my American friend cannot get a spouse visa for his Japanese wife because the embassy officials told him that he doesn't have enough funds to support themselves once she is in America. They have been married for 7 years and have 2 children. He is contacting his Congressman for assistance.

Max2010

[StreetCowboy]

well, lets try my country:

no thais whatsoever living here as immigrants if they arent married to someone here, or diplomats (or born here to 'legally employed/visa parents' (we are now as of today deporting quite a large amount of children (born after a certain date) with parent (who are here w/o visa/permit to stay since they left their employment, or arrived illegally w/o entrance permits etc).

any thais here are all on work visas that are employer specific and sector specific (if u have a visa for agriculture u cannot work in a restaraunt ,ever. no way to change over.). ; there is one group of wealthyish thais students here on a work/study visa and trust me, they are tracked everywhere.

buying land?!! youve got to be kidding! if u dont have two sane people to sign for your on any contracts, unless u pay in cash, there is no land/no house. might not even get to rent in a normal neighbhorhood.

the only way to get here is to work in agriculture or be a christian thai and come over on a travel tour of the holyland.

wanna reciprocate?

bina

israel

ehhhh, pardon my Hebrew - but somehow I cant imagine the queue of Gaza Strip property speculators, complaining about the stringent rules for immigrants, being that overly long...

My understanding is that immigration and associated property development in that part of the world is causing real hardship for the local populace, and is a bone of contention which seriously exacerbates existing social tensions.

SC

[Forethat]

My understanding is that immigration and associated property development in that part of the world is causing real hardship for the local populace, and is a bone of contention which seriously exacerbates existing social tensions.

SC

lol, call it immigration if you want, but I think a majority of Palestinians call i by it's real name - invasion.

[bonobo]

In the US, foreign nationals help the country succeed.

You tell that to the Native Americans..

What a specious reply.

By most standards, the US is a "successful" country. And right now, a good portion of that success is do to foreign nationals. That has pretty much nothing to do with Native Americans.

[bonobo]

I believe that some US states do not allow foreigners to own land, and therefore Taiwan, which exercises reciprocity, will only allow US residents of certain states to own property there. The things some people believe, eh? Is there no end to gullibility?

Not quite. A handful of states have limits on agricultural lands, and a few others have limits on land over anywhere from 320 to 640 acres. One or two limit land ownership to personal use. And two states proscribe land ownership by foreign nationals unless they live in the state. So in all 50 states, a foreign national can buy a home in which to live. They just may not be able to buy a farm or invest in commercial property in some cases.

[samran]

2nd note --- it is easier for foreign women married to Thai men (I think)

I know women who has managed to get Thai citizenship fairly easy due to their marriage to Thai nationals.

....and laws were changed in 2008 to give men married to Thai women a similar path to Thai citizenship.

[Forethat]

2nd note --- it is easier for foreign women married to Thai men (I think)

I know women who has managed to get Thai citizenship fairly easy due to their marriage to Thai nationals.

....and laws were changed in 2008 to give men married to Thai women a similar path to Thai citizenship.

oh..I didn't realize you could get Thai citizenship after a year. Cool.

[samran]

2nd note --- it is easier for foreign women married to Thai men (I think)

I know women who has managed to get Thai citizenship fairly easy due to their marriage to Thai nationals.

....and laws were changed in 2008 to give men married to Thai women a similar path to Thai citizenship.

oh..I didn't realize you could get Thai citizenship after a year. Cool.

you can apply, if you meet the qualifications. Many threads running on TV on this.

just realise though, 'easy' is a relative term. My wife has been waiting for three years for her application to be processed. Likely it will take a few more years. Don't think that women get any special particular favours in the process.

[Forethat]

you can apply, if you meet the qualifications. Many threads running on TV on this.

just realise though, 'easy' is a relative term. My wife has been waiting for three years for her application to be processed. Likely it will take a few more years. Don't think that women get any special particular favours in the process.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough...

I know of more than one woman who's managed to get Thai citizenship in less than one year after marrying a Thai man. I dont know a single man who's managed to get Thai citizenship.

[Berkshire]

In Japan, my American friend cannot get a spouse visa for his Japanese wife because the embassy officials told him that he doesn't have enough funds to support themselves once she is in America. They have been married for 7 years and have 2 children. He is contacting his Congressman for assistance.

Max2010

Max, you've provided some great perspectives on these other countries (including Canada) regarding immigration. Someone else mentioned foreign land ownership laws in Australia being somewhat restrictive. I'm sure there are many, MANY other examples of countries that have laws limiting certain rights for foreigners. And still, many on this forum still chirp about Thailand and its laws, which again, is much more lenient in terms of allowing foreigners to come and stay for an extended period. Selective listening/reading appears to be alive and well on TV.

[Berkshire]

In the US, foreign nationals help the country succeed.

You tell that to the Native Americans..

What a specious reply.

By most standards, the US is a "successful" country. And right now, a good portion of that success is do to foreign nationals. That has pretty much nothing to do with Native Americans.

Bonobo, I think he was referring to the fact that the arrival of early immigrants (i.e., Europeans) resulted in the near extinction of an entire race of people who were there first, the American Indians. So from that perspective, foreign nationals didn't exactly help the first Americans to prosper.

[samran]

you can apply, if you meet the qualifications. Many threads running on TV on this.

just realise though, 'easy' is a relative term. My wife has been waiting for three years for her application to be processed. Likely it will take a few more years. Don't think that women get any special particular favours in the process.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough...

I know of more than one woman who's managed to get Thai citizenship in less than one year after marrying a Thai man. I dont know a single man who's managed to get Thai citizenship.

To be fair, the laws were only changed in 2008 to allow foreign men married to Thai's to bypass PR and go straight for citizenship (so long as they met the qualifications). So given the timeline, you are unlikely to meet any male who has achieved this particular way of getting citizenship.

Having said that, i guess we all have our own perspective. Most of the people I know who have Thai citizenship through naturalisation are men - all getting it under their own steam.

[flying]

To be fair, the laws were only changed in 2008 to allow foreign men married to Thai's to bypass PR and go straight for citizenship (so long as they met the qualifications). So given the timeline, you are unlikely to meet any male who has achieved this particular way of getting citizenship.

Having said that, i guess we all have our own perspective. Most of the people I know who have Thai citizenship through naturalisation are men - all getting it under their own steam.

That is good to hear Samran

Can you say what the average time line was for them?

[samran]

To be fair, the laws were only changed in 2008 to allow foreign men married to Thai's to bypass PR and go straight for citizenship (so long as they met the qualifications). So given the timeline, you are unlikely to meet any male who has achieved this particular way of getting citizenship.

Having said that, i guess we all have our own perspective. Most of the people I know who have Thai citizenship through naturalisation are men - all getting it under their own steam.

That is good to hear Samran

Can you say what the average time line was for them?

A minimum of three years from application to approval seems to be fastest from people I know. Many though, got theirs in the 90's, so using those timelines as a comparison probably doesn't work.

[Heng]

Should there by tighter restrictions on whining like a big baby?

[anterian]

There is never any point in complaining, I just vote with my feet, some aspects of Thailand I love, others I hate, if the balance shifts too far towards hate, I would leave.

When I read a few years back that I have to be fingerprinted to visit the US I simply decided not to visit.

Most Commonwealth countries give me a free visa on entry, As India charges between 30 and 80 Pounds, I do not visit there, not the cost, just the principle

Australia at 20 Australian dollars is borderline

[Tom9999]

Do you mean sort of tit for tat? If so you can only be talking about land ownership. Why should there be tighter restrictions for Thais than any other Nationalities?

jb1

That's a start. Work, visas, etc. But this not only for Thais but all nationalities.

Agree with above.

Should be the same for all nationalities with the same status.

By status I mean different rules for EU citizens in the EU, Asia, Africa etc.

So same rules for the same people from one group.

[bina]

forethat...knock off the smirking jokes.... as most already know, i wont discuss israeli politics here unless it is relavant to thai culture/visas,language etc. and, btw, u would be surprised how many rich gazans there are waiting in line to get their greasy little hands on land here on 'this' side of the line, by taking advantage of poor villagers...money is what makes the world go round (and water too).

dont get confused. immigrants here are are several varieties: legal (part of the 'who is a jew' series, not to be discussed here), and illegal: thai, philipine, sudan, euritrians (ethiopians that arent flashmora/jewish ethiopians), nigirians, most of these poor souls that manage to sell their souls to beduin smugglers to get them across egyptian borders thru the desert, face dehydration, starvation, rape, and death only to get arrested and placed in holding cells here after getting medical treatment for free, until their fate is decided. thais and filipines sri lanka and bangledesh arrive legally with working visas and become illegal after leaving their employers... no one will tell them they cant buy land. but they will never meet the convoluted conditions needed to actually buy a piece of land here (which is, btw, actually rented for 99 years. most land is state owned. most arab villages own their own land, not rented 99 years.) we citizens for the most part cant meet the requirements w/o getting deeply, long term, catastrophically in to debt.

any way u look at it, israel in this case is not worried about land as such. most people will come right out and say it (and say it to my face often enough about my husband): we dont want to mix our blood with non jewish and foreign blood.

the thais are known as xenophobic and ethnocentric as we can see from several past threads on the exact same question. asian countries in general are xenophobic and ethnocentric and prefer only immigration that is beneficial: or groups that are lowly workers (cambodia and laos et al) or they are the very very rich. saudi arabians are supposedly snapping up agricultural land in issaan , as corporations that meet thai criteria for buying/owning land and work in thailand.

btw, here we think the french jews are overtaking the real estate sectors here in israel -- rich french, driving prices up everywhere. and arab and jew alike selling agricultural land off to whomever pays the going price, since water prices have lept skyward and agriculture is not really viable, the land becomes great for condos and malls. no one really looks at the religioun behind the cash and a third party can always be used to overcome minor ethnic obstacles.

thailand wants money, but the country and its people do not seem to want to 'muddy' the waters (their blood) with white blood, for whatever reasons, and they will find whatever ways possible to keep that philosophy viable. for every rule, there is a way around it ( a loophole, now u can know tha i really do have jewish blood in my veins, ill always find the loophole, just like in our religioun)... in this case, money is the loophole. have your money in the bank, u get a visa. very simple.

the fact that we fall in love, marry, want to own a piece of heaven in whatever country we live in, doenst matter to beurocrats that deal with numbers.

many countries dont outright prevent immigrants, or foreing passport holders from buying land, but the conditions needed to be met may well make the actual aquisition practically impossible.

the only bothersome beurocratic problem i see in thailand is that they arent 'stable' in their requirments. they change financial requirements, age limits, time limits and definitions of what a particular visa actually is, not to mention employment restrictions. so long term planning for a specific situation is not relavant. btw the time we have any money for house etc, someoen will change the sexist differances between thai husband vx. thai wife requirements. i prefer sexist in this case.

bina

israel