65,000 Monthly Income Method

[gk10002000]

Who or what actually certifies the monthly income method? What would I need for my retirement visa? Do I just get a bunch of my bank and brokerage statements? Does the "income" have to be in a brokerage account, or can I also count all the money in my IRA accounts which I don't plan on touching for a few more years? All the money in those IRA accounts is in fixed income investments, bonds, dividend paying stocks etc. so the "income" is real, I just don't want to touch yet. I am 54 now, and don't want to touch those IRAs until 59 1/2. You USA people will understand the IRS rules on that.

I would be pulling the income I would use from my brokerage account for the first few years. Would any Thai offical know what I am talking about? Would it ever be discussed? What piece of paper do I submit? I heard it is just an affirmation by me that the US embassy signs or notarizes?

What is the process? Any details would be helpful.

Thanks

[Jingthing]

Those are some interesting questions; some I haven't heard before such as claiming IRA income as income.

Anyway, as a USA person, you get the income letter from the US embassy in Bangkok or the consulate in Chiang Mai.

The US will not ask you even one question about the details of that income. You tell them the number and promise it is true and you get the letter. If you don't tell the truth, you are probably breaking a US law though.

As far as Thai immigration is concerned, on any given day, the officer may accept that letter verbatim. However, at any time at his discretion he may ask some questions about the income and/or further documentation. IF that ever happened to you, then you would be in a position of explaining your various streams of income as you described above. They won't know about IRA rules of course. I can say income is income to them, and it is not limited to pension income. However, how can you possibly accurately state the CURRENT year's income for those kinds of streams when the figures changes all the time based on the market?

There is nobody here who can tell you the odds an officer will or won't accept your embassy letter without asking for more info on any given day. I think it is clear they USUALLY don't ask for more proof. However, you have two strikes against you in the suspicion department. Savvy officers know about the liberality of the US embassy policy and also you are under standard USA social security pension age, so it is my guess your odds are higher than average of eventually being asked.

Remember, immigration officers are POLICE. They are trained to be suspicious. Are you paranoid yet?

So, if you are going to try to use those streams for immigration purposes, get as much documentation as you can about the income and be prepared to potentially need to show it. Then if questioned, and they don't accept part of it as income, at least your position is defensible. (If they don't like it, probably they would just decline the application.) Also you'd be hard pressed to find any written rule about the details of what income they will accept or not, so I wouldn't try too hard for absolute certainty on this.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Jingthing

[gk10002000]

Those are some interesting questions; some I haven't heard before such as claiming IRA income as income.

Anyway, as a USA person, you get the income letter from the US embassy in Bangkok or the consulate in Chiang Mai.

The US will not ask you even one question about the details of that income. You tell them the number and promise it is true and you get the letter. If you don't tell the truth, you are probably breaking a US law though.

As far as Thai immigration is concerned, on any given day, the officer may accept that letter verbatim. However, at any time at his discretion he may ask some questions about the income and/or further documentation. IF that ever happened to you, then you would be in a position of explaining your various streams of income as you described above. They won't know about IRA rules of course. I can say income is income to them, and it is not limited to pension income. However, how can you possibly accurately state the CURRENT year's income for those kinds of streams when the figures changes all the time based on the market?

There is nobody here who can tell you the odds an officer will or won't accept your embassy without asking for more info on any given day. I think it is clear they USUALLY don't ask for more proof. However, you have two strikes against you in the suspicion department. Savvy officers know about the liberality of the US embassy policy and also you are under standard USA social security pension age, so it is my guess your odds are higher than average of eventually being asked.

Reflecting upon my own question:

1: The IRA income will be valid and available and can always be withdrawn. Early withdrawal might incur the 10% IRS early withdrawal penalty, but that is not a factor anybody considers. The income is still being generated. Just like any other income money, there may be tax consequences. People that have pension income, also pay taxes on that, and the tax rates etc.. are not part of any declaration.

2: Sine the IRA income and brokerage income is from fixed income sources, primarily Bonds (non-callable municipal bonds) and dividend paying stocks, I can certainly state and affirm at the current moment what the income is. The Etrade income estimator is quite accurate and easy to keep track of. Market prices are not a big driver of my income sources. I am using the income dividend rate and not the price of the stock. I can't predict the future, any more than a Pensioner can. Many pensions stop paying, run out of money, etc.

[Jingthing]

I think using the IRA as stated income is really stretching it, but like I said, how much do you think Thai immigration officers know about IRAs? Standard dividends, interest income, etc. sounds pretty solid to me. Wait for other opinions.

I should also say some (or even most?) USA brokerage firms will freak out if you tell them you are a non-US resident. They may even close your account. Being a US expat isn't as easy as being an expat from countries with a stronger expat culture, like the UK. As you know, the entire world is clamoring to get into the US (that's what most Americans think anyway), so don't expect a lot of support and understanding from most US institutions.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Jingthing

[theoldgit]

I dream of the day that I can show evidence of my income to a Thai Immigration Officer and do away with the expensive middle man, another dream that will never come true I fear.

Edited March 20, 2011 by theoldgit

[gk10002000]

I think using the IRA as stated income is really stretching it, but like I said, how much do you think Thai immigration officers know about IRAs? Standard dividends, interest income, etc. sounds pretty solid to me. Wait for other opinions.

I should also say some (or even most?) USA brokerage firms will freak out if you tell them you are a non-US resident. They may even close your account. Being a US expat isn't as easy as being an expat from countries with a stronger expat culture, like the UK. As you know, the entire world is clamoring to get into the US (that's what most Americans think anyway), so don't expect a lot of support and understanding from most US institutions.

Yep. The USA is in the dark ages as far as Expatting and living abroad. Long arm of the tax man, Social Security payments, Medicare, and your comment about Financial institutions is spot on. Heck, Etrade bank, my primary brokerage and bank doesn't even accept checks drawn on foreign banks, or money orders for that matter. Since 911, it has gotten worse.

[longball53098]

I think many people over think this monthly income letter. The Immigration rule states you need to show a monthly income of 65,000 baht monthly from pensions or other income streams. I would say if challenged on the money coming in just showing the bank records proving at least 2,200 USD(based on 30 baht/USD) coming in to Thailand each and every month will be good enough for the IO. I don't think they (Immigration) cares what source the money comes from as long as the applicant can prove they have the needed funds to live on. I also think showing exactly the amount required will raise a flag for more questions. I always show more dollars/ baht than the required 65k. but always within my pension and other income amounts. In future years if the baht gets stronger I will need to make some adjustments or convert to the marriage extension with lower limits. I always have proof of money coming to Thailand via Swift transfers but never had to show it.

Can anyone here on TV point to any post here that shows where an IO officer asked for proof of income beyond the income letter? I'm talking of an American applicant here no other country. As the USA seems to have the easiest letter to obtain. I have been reading here for 6 years plus and cannot recall anyone from the US ever being challenged to prove their income when using the income letter. I realize we all can be asked any year for any reason they want but has anyone ever been asked?

[Mario2008]

Occasionally people are asked to provide extra proof of income. Immigration has that right.

There was a very recent report of someone being asked.

[Wash]

I just did retirement extension in Sakon Nakhon and was asked to get a new income letter from the embassy every year when in the past I have been able to use the same letter for 5 or more years. In addition to the new income letter I was also required to show my bank book and copy all pages as an attachment to the extension request. Not to prove income but to prove that I had a regular income into Thailand. They also wanted a copy of my wifes id card and house papers, even though that is not part of any requirement I am aware of.

VISA extension was granted but cost an additional 2500 baht for extra travel time and the cost of notarary services at the embassy.

I think this has all canged because there is a new commander for the Sakon Nakhon office and not because of any changes from the government. The prior officer in charge did allow multiple years on the income letter and did not ask for bank account information or for any documents relating to my wife.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Wash

[BuckarooBanzai]

One year I used a combination of Bank Transfer Records and Credit Card Records showing expenditures in Thailand from my US bank to show the receipt and expenditures of the required amount. It was accepted. This was in addition to the standard Embassy document. A standard disbursement document though is much easier as is the case with SS and pensions.

Edited March 20, 2011 by BuckarooBanzai

[lopburi3]

What is in an IRA would be meaningless. Only what you have taken out during the previous year could be counted as meeting the 65k in my opinion. As you do not do that it should not be a factor. You have the option to use both income/pension and bank deposit so best to not declare more income than you can prove and make up the difference with bank deposit (which you can use for living the rest of the year).

Yes you do swear before a presidential representative that the information is true and you do present that information to Thai authorities as true so if not able to prove it could indeed be a very serious matter. Contrary to popular opinion I understand even Thai laws are very strict on presentation of false paperwork.

[skydiver77]

Occasionally people are asked to provide extra proof of income. Immigration has that right.

There was a very recent report of someone being asked.

I would think there is a good chance of US citzens being asked to show proof of income at Chang Wattana.

I was at Immigration about 3 weeks ago, with my wife, to apply for 1yr extension based on marriage.

After studying my Brit Embassy 'proof of income' letter. The lady officer asked if I had any bank statements with me. As it happened, I had put them in my folder as an after thought. While withdrawing them, she smiled and said; 'Never mind.'

She then went into conversation with the Mrs.

Turns out that Immigration officers are now well aware that Yanks don't have to show proof of income for their Embassy letter. Whatever figure they quote, will turn up on the letter. Officers are now likely to use their discretion, as to require further proof of income.

[Jingthing]

What is in an IRA would be meaningless. Only what you have taken out during the previous year could be counted as meeting the 65k in my opinion. As you do not do that it should not be a factor.

...

Your opinion makes sense to me even though I am still not sure how all this gels with how arcane IRA rules would be to a Thai officer.

When you withdraw a chunk from an IRA it is an income event for the US IRS. The entire chunk. If it is a Roth IRA there is no tax due, but I presume you still list that amount on tax forms. The amount in the IRA isn't an income event if you don't touch it.

Your response made me think of another issue.

Supposing you sell a chunk of stock from a non-retirement US brokerage account.

For the example, say you sell 10,000 dollars stock with a profit of 3,000 dollars.

For US tax purposes, only 3,000 is potentially taxable, not the entire 10,000.

So for purposes of stating income for Thai immigration, you would say it is OK to claim 3,000 or 10,000 as income or perhaps NOTHING? I really don't know. I had assumed nothing actually.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[FarangBuddha]

Just go to the US embassy n Bangkok...ask the clerk for the retirement income verification form, fill it out and put that you have a monthly income (pension, whatever) of $ 3000 per month...pay the $50 fee (or whatever the current notary fee is)...sign the form in from of the vice-counsel, and you're done. Takes about 1 hour. Don't over think this...it's easy.

Done this for over a decade for retirement extensions and never asked for anything more on the pension issue by the Thai immigration cubicle hamsters.

[lopburi3]

You should be able to declare the 10k as that is the gross amount above zero and that is what Immigration is concerned with. It would be the same as 7k savings and 3k interest equals 10k. To date have not seen any report of immigration being concerned with fine points as long as you can support the figure provided.

[Jingthing]

You should be able to declare the 10k as that is the gross amount above zero and that is what Immigration is concerned with. It would be the same as 7k savings and 3k interest equals 10k. To date have not seen any report of immigration being concerned with fine points as long as you can support the figure provided.

That is very interesting to me. I have been selling stock every year and never claiming it as income for immigration. I don't really consider it income, interest and dividends are income, but to me selling a chunk of stock is selling a chunk of stock. So I have been using the 800K method when I could have used a combo method with embassy letter, perhaps.

Others, can you share your reaction to lopburi3's opinion about this?

Do you agree with it would OK to use the full value of a stock sale as income for purposes of the income letter for Thai immigration?

I am having trouble digesting this concept, so forgive my caution.

Also, IF this is true, how far can I go? Suppose you have a US bank checking account, and one year you just WITHDRAWAL (no sale) 10,000 USD. In that case, could the 10,000 be used as "income" for purposes of Thai immigration? (Of course, it's not really "income", it's just a withdraw of money you earned before).

I still don't get this; sorry for being slow.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[mojaco]

Here's the wording from the US Embassy letter:

"I also affirm that I receive in amount of US$_____ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources."

Pretty clear to me that "every month" disallows certain types of monies.

[Jingthing]

Here's the wording from the US Embassy letter:

"I also affirm that I receive in amount of US$_____ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources."

Pretty clear to me that "every month" disallows certain types of monies.

I don't think so at all but I can see why you do. Money can be expressed monthly or annually, if you are trying to convert annual monies into monthly, divide by 12. If they has said annually and the income was monthly, you would multiply by 12.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[mojaco]

My guess is that just as the Thai Immigration wants to see 800,000 in a Thai bank BEFORE giving an extension, they would not be too excited if I said "trust me, sometime later on I will get a big chunk of money from my IRA or whatever which will be equivalent to 12 months at 65,000". But in the end, each of us have to be comfortable with signing the US Embassy letter as it is worded. I am not a lawyer, and it would be interesting if there were a retired USA lawyer type here among us to give an opinion. Of course if we are able to show we are actually transferring living expense money into Thailand, whether monthly or just once a year, Thai immigration *should* be satisfied?

[Jingthing]

Immigration cares about the Total. They are not interested that income equals transfers. For example, if you state income of 100K USD, you can transfer NOTHING and still be OK.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[jazzbo]

The document I received from Thai Immigration (in Thai with their English translation) dated 3 December 2008 says:

In case of having monthly income... Applicant must provide evidence of a monthly income with a minimum of 65,000 baht ... This evidence must include a Letter (issued by your Embassy of citizenship) ... Income could be pension, interest, investment payoff, etc.

[Jingthing]

The document I received from Thai Immigration (in Thai with their English translation) dated 3 December 2008 says:

In case of having monthly income... Applicant must provide evidence of a monthly income with a minimum of 65,000 baht ... This evidence must include a Letter (issued by your Embassy of citizenship) ... Income could be pension, interest, investment payoff, etc.

Right, that is also my understanding, NOT limited to pension.

But what does etc. mean exactly?

I think rental incomes would be acceptable.

But still having trouble with the idea of claiming GROSS stock sales or just a withdrawal from a bank account!

I also feel for US persons, what Thai immigration thinks is OK to claim is much more important than any wording on the US form. In other words converting annual to monthly is defensible.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[jazzbo]

What may be most important when you walk into the Thai IMM office for your extension of stay with your US Embassy affirmation letter: Body Language.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Immigration cares about the Total. They are not interested that income equals transfers. For example, if you state income of 100K USD, you can transfer NOTHING and still be OK.

Every year I qualify with the embassy letter and they still ask to see the Thai bank book to make sure at least some funds are being transferred. I do not think your "nothing" idea would fly at least not at the Immy I go to. I certainly would recommend taking your bank book & copies along for a renewal with at least some funds being transferred. Balance however is not an issue as I have gotten by with 30 baht.

[Jingthing]

It is true, they often want to see SOME Thai bank account for people using the letter method fully. But the principle of what I said still stands. Some people think you need to transfer in all you claim. Absolutely not. Saying zero was probably flip, but even if you did transfer in zero and could credibly explain/document how you were sourcing money here if asked (and it wasn't illegal working) that should work also.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[mojaco]

<snip>

I also feel for US persons, what Thai immigration thinks is OK to claim is much more important than any wording on the US form. In other words converting annual to monthly is defensible.

Since the signing of the US Embassy letter is a legal affidavit to which I must not lie, actually the USA meaning of the word "income" is more important to me relative to the USA than what a Thai Immigration official might think.

By the way, the word "income" seems to be very mysterious in legal circles also (after a brief Google search of the subject), but here is one legal opinion:

http://definitions.uslegal.com/o/ordinary-income/

"Ordinary income is all income that is subject to ordinary tax treatment by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). It is income other than capital gains. Wages, interest, dividends, and net income from a business are examples of ordinary income. Investments often produce ordinary income. Examples of ordinary income include interest and rent. Many investments--including savings accounts, certificates of deposit, money market accounts, annuities, bonds, and some preferred stock--can generate ordinary income.

Dividends received from investments may be treated as ordinary income, being taxable at the applicable rate, or may be treated as a capital gain. Ordinary income is taxed at ordinary (as opposed to capital gains) tax rates. It is an important distinction for tax purposes because capital gains are taxed at a different rate."

Might be easier to be a Brit and have to "prove" the "income".

[Jingthing]

Since the signing of the US Embassy letter is a legal affidavit to which I must not lie, actually the USA meaning of the word "income" is more important to me relative to the USA than what a Thai Immigration official might think.

I understand fully where you are coming from, but I am still not so sure it is relevant to the situation here. You go to the US embassy to get an income letter to be used as proof of income that Thai immigration will accept, or not. Supposing for some weird reason, the US didn't see rental monies as income but Thai immigration did, just for an example. In that case, I still think it would be defensible to include that kind of income on the US embassy form. I may indeed be wrong!

BTW, based on your definition of income, what amount would you call income of a 10,000 stock sale, with 3,000 capital gains profit? Zero, 3,000, or 10,000?

Edited March 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[mojaco]

Since the signing of the US Embassy letter is a legal affidavit to which I must not lie, actually the USA meaning of the word "income" is more important to me relative to the USA than what a Thai Immigration official might think.

I understand fully where you are coming from, but I am still not so sure it is relevant to the situation here. You go to the US embassy to get an income letter to be used as proof of income that Thai immigration will accept, or not. Supposing for some weird reason, the US didn't see rental monies as income but Thai immigration did, just for an example. In that case, I still think it would be defensible to include that kind of income on the US embassy form. I may indeed be wrong!

BTW, based on your definition of income, what amount would you call income of a 10,000 tax sale, with 3,000 capital gains profit? Zero, 3,000, or 10,000?

I'm not sure what you mean by "tax sale". Actually I am a pretty simple person. To me "income" is any net INCREASE via funds from whatever source. So interest, rent, capital gains, inheritance, etc that "comes in" to me from outside sources is "in-come". So if I had some sort of net INCREASE from what you are talking about, that would be "income".

But not "monthly income" no doubt.

Edited March 20, 2011 by mojaco

[Jingthing]

I meant stock sale, since corrected.

Gains in stocks are not realized unless and until you SELL them.

So I am guessing you would think a 3,000 capital gain on a gross stock sale of 10,000 would be considered income, but not monthly income, so not usable for the embassy form?

I still don't understand this issue about stock sales; maybe I need to start a new thread about it sometime, as I can't rely on the opinion of one person for something so important.

[FarangBuddha]

You guys crack me up...worrying about what you are affirming "on information and belief" to be true. However, it may not be...sometimes the extent of one's knowledge is incorrect or incomplete...so sue me!

If Bill can lie about not having had "sexual relations with that woman" and George can do the same about WMD's in Iraq,, then any American retired in Thailand is entitled to say what's necessary on their income declaration to obtain or continue their retirement in Thailand..