Two Swedes Electrocuted In Krabi

[bangkokrick]

A few months ago I found that my shower would only run cold. The shower is around on year old and it's a good brand name. I decided to try to get it fixed by a local electrician (That came highly recommended by the locals) and the picture shows the result.

He worked on the shower and got it running hot, so I paid him and off he went. I was watching the TV and all of a sudden the room very quickly filled with black acrid smoke. I ran and turned off the power at the mains switch.

My wife was gardening at the time and it was her intention to test the shower when she had finished. Thank god it set on fire or things could have been much worse. Hire a Thai electrician at your peril.

it looks scary ...

find a good one and stick with him.... next time...

you were just out of luck...

make no peril..

It was scary mate thinking about what could have happened if one of us had taken as shower. RIP to the Swedes,

[bangkokrick]

A few months ago I found that my shower would only run cold. The shower is around on year old and it's a good brand name. I decided to try to get it fixed by a local electrician (That came highly recommended by the locals) and the picture shows the result.

He worked on the shower and got it running hot, so I paid him and off he went. I was watching the TV and all of a sudden the room very quickly filled with black acrid smoke. I ran and turned off the power at the mains switch.

My wife was gardening at the time and it was her intention to test the shower when she had finished. Thank god it set on fire or things could have been much worse. Hire a Thai electrician at your peril.

In that pic for a start the heater is far to low, it should be up high well above the water outlet.

I will take your word for that mate. I know nothing about fitting showers, so have to trust the guys that supposedly do.

[NaiGreg]

I am an electrical engineer (since the days we still created circuit diagrams on blue-prints.)

1. Grounding an electric water heater of the type they here is not really important and may be a waste of time, in spite of the dire warnings you read on these threads. (Yes, I know what the safety manual says.)

2. BUT, using electric washing machine (where one actually touches the metallic inner drum after a cycle) is DEADLY without proper grounding.

Do you see the difference? In the shower you must be touching/exposed to some metal conduit AND there has to be faulty circuit. Extremely unlikely. But it is important for the unit to have at least one (preferably two) cut-outs in case of a circuit fault.

Most of the horror stories you hear about these water heaters are urban legend. In the real cases the victim grabbed/touched the metal pipe/nozzle of a unit that was incorrectly earthed. If it had not been earthed at all they would have been safer.

[simon43]

If it's common knowledge in Ao Nang, then why do I (a hotel owner in Ao Nang), not know the name of this hotel and have not heard anything in Ao Nang from neighbouring hotels about this tragic incident?

Simon

[LaoPo]

A few months ago I found that my shower would only run cold. The shower is around on year old and it's a good brand name. I decided to try to get it fixed by a local electrician (That came highly recommended by the locals) and the picture shows the result.

He worked on the shower and got it running hot, so I paid him and off he went. I was watching the TV and all of a sudden the room very quickly filled with black acrid smoke. I ran and turned off the power at the mains switch.

My wife was gardening at the time and it was her intention to test the shower when she had finished. Thank god it set on fire or things could have been much worse. Hire a Thai electrician at your peril.

..Holy Moly....you guys were lucky!

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

I am an electrical engineer (since the days we still created circuit diagrams on blue-prints.)

1. Grounding an electric water heater of the type they here is not really important and may be a waste of time, in spite of the dire warnings you read on these threads. (Yes, I know what the safety manual says.)

2. BUT, using electric washing machine (where one actually touches the metallic inner drum after a cycle) is DEADLY without proper grounding.

Do you see the difference? In the shower you must be touching/exposed to some metal conduit AND there has to be faulty circuit. Extremely unlikely. But it is important for the unit to have at least one (preferably two) cut-outs in case of a circuit fault.

Most of the horror stories you hear about these water heaters are urban legend. In the real cases the victim grabbed/touched the metal pipe/nozzle of a unit that was incorrectly earthed. If it had not been earthed at all they would have been safer.

SO: what is YOUR guess what happened and caused the death of the 2 young Swedish tourists in/near the shower ?

LaoPo

[aonangmrhuw]

If it's common knowledge in Ao Nang, then why do I (a hotel owner in Ao Nang), not know the name of this hotel and have not heard anything in Ao Nang from neighbouring hotels about this tragic incident?

Simon

Maybe we move in different circles,The tourist police have been outside the place all day...

[bangkokrick]

A few months ago I found that my shower would only run cold. The shower is around on year old and it's a good brand name. I decided to try to get it fixed by a local electrician (That came highly recommended by the locals) and the picture shows the result.

He worked on the shower and got it running hot, so I paid him and off he went. I was watching the TV and all of a sudden the room very quickly filled with black acrid smoke. I ran and turned off the power at the mains switch.

My wife was gardening at the time and it was her intention to test the shower when she had finished. Thank god it set on fire or things could have been much worse. Hire a Thai electrician at your peril.

..Holy Moly....you guys were lucky!

LaoPo

Yes very lucky Laopo, but we live and learn. I got a new shower fitted by a local company in Pattaya 'Nomchai' and their standard of work appears to be very good, so we can't tar them all with the same brush I guess.

[NaiGreg]

I am an electrical engineer (since the days we still created circuit diagrams on blue-prints.)

1. Grounding an electric water heater of the type they here is not really important and may be a waste of time, in spite of the dire warnings you read on these threads. (Yes, I know what the safety manual says.)

2. BUT, using electric washing machine (where one actually touches the metallic inner drum after a cycle) is DEADLY without proper grounding.

Do you see the difference? In the shower you must be touching/exposed to some metal conduit AND there has to be faulty circuit. Extremely unlikely. But it is important for the unit to have at least one (preferably two) cut-outs in case of a circuit fault.

Most of the horror stories you hear about these water heaters are urban legend. In the real cases the victim grabbed/touched the metal pipe/nozzle of a unit that was incorrectly earthed. If it had not been earthed at all they would have been safer.

SO: what is YOUR guess what happened and caused the death of the 2 young Swedish tourists in/near the shower ?

LaoPo

I don't know what happened in this case. Did a pathologist confirm it was death by cardiac arrest or by wounds from electrocution?

I can tell you it was not from a "deadly" stream of water or touching the plastic casing of the water heater. Maybe some thoughtless plumber pseudo-grounded the iron drain pipe at the bottom of the shower (where water pools around the feet)and there was a circuit fault or a lightning strike.

BTW, most of the units are Japanese brands (National, Panasonic, etc.) They have pretty high standards for saftey and testing.

Remember, electric currents exist in closed circuits of reasonably low resistance! (except for static discharges: lightning, tesla coils, etc.)

[Sunderland]

If it is common knowledge in Ao Nang, then someone from there could do the whole community outside Ao Nang a massive favour by at least quoting something useful regarding the location of the hotel/resort/bungalows.

How sad if it has reached a stage where people with an education are not smart enough to type something like, "Locals in the town believe that the place in question is opposite/next to/behind/etc. ..." if they are too worried about typing the name of the place in question.

People are genuinely interested in where 2 young tourists died and are mature enough to make their own choices about whether they would like to consider staying at this place, given the information that has been released thus far, in the future.

[siamiam]

To put the conductivity of water into perspective - Water's conductivity falls between the conductivity of a diamond and the conductivity of glass. This includes sea water, drinking water and de-ionized water.

http://en.wikipedia....nd_conductivity

I am reading the data on the above mentioned Wiki website differently, in regards to the electrical resistivity of water, glass, and diamond carbon. While I don't find fault with the Wiki site cited here, be careful with the various Wikis out there, as I have found on occasion that they contain 'information' I know to be false. Here is an excerpt from that site:

"The conductivity of a solution of water is highly dependent on its concentration of dissolved salts, and other chemical species that ionize in the solution."

Here is a URL for a website with information on how people get electrocuted:

http://www.bigsiteofamazingfacts.com/how-do-people-get-electrocuted-and-does-current-or-voltage-kill-a-person-when-they-get-an-electric-shock

Here is an excerpt from that site:

"For example, dry skin offers an electrical resistance of 100,000 ohms. Yet wet skin reduces this to 400 ohms, only double the resistance of salty water. So being soaked to the skin leaves us more vulnerable to harm."

[metisdead]

In order to protect the members here from possibility of defamation/libel lawsuits, no naming of the bungalow please. If a news source names the bungalow, then it's in the open.

[siamiam]

Here is a URL to a report of a man killed because he urinated on a power line:

http://www.msnbc.msn...s/us_news-life/

The cable in this report was likely of much higher power than anything normally found in a residential home. But if a situation were to arise where foreign, more powerful electricity was somehow introduced into the home, it looks to me like an electrical path via the water stream leaving a shower head might become possible.

Come to think of it, with 240v residential in Thailand, couldn't a miswire or other type of fault produce 480v?

[surayu]

The friend who tried to assist them reseived electric chocks as well, but she hadent read Nisas posts so she probably didnt know any better.

Tiger

[Nisa]

Here is a URL to a report of a man killed because he urinated on a power line:

http://www.msnbc.msn...s/us_news-life/

The cable in this report was likely of much higher power than anything normally found in a residential home. But if a situation were to arise where foreign, more powerful electricity was somehow introduced into the home, it looks to me like an electrical path via the water stream leaving a shower head might become possible.

Come to think of it, with 240v residential in Thailand, couldn't a miswire or other type of fault produce 480v?

Actually turned out he was electrocuted through his hand and had nothing to do with urine ... http://seattletimes....ctrocution.html

To be electrocuted by urinating a high voltage line you would need to have your penis incredibly close to the downed line or have some other circumstances happening. But would guess it is still not something people should do.

[KKvampire]

The Big question is "Will there be a Fair Autopsy and will the facts come out?" This is surely what the Swedish authorities and the families of the victims need to be sure of.

If I was either of those I would want an independent autopsy and is the hotel a crime scene now?

This is Thailand .

[Thaddeus]

I am an electrical engineer (since the days we still created circuit diagrams on blue-prints.)

1. Grounding an electric water heater of the type they here is not really important and may be a waste of time, in spite of the dire warnings you read on these threads. (Yes, I know what the safety manual says.)

2. BUT, using electric washing machine (where one actually touches the metallic inner drum after a cycle) is DEADLY without proper grounding.

Do you see the difference? In the shower you must be touching/exposed to some metal conduit AND there has to be faulty circuit. Extremely unlikely. But it is important for the unit to have at least one (preferably two) cut-outs in case of a circuit fault.

Most of the horror stories you hear about these water heaters are urban legend. In the real cases the victim grabbed/touched the metal pipe/nozzle of a unit that was incorrectly earthed. If it had not been earthed at all they would have been safer.

Some need to read this post, in some cases twice may be in order.

[bulmercke]

In 1992 I stayed at a "cheap" local hotel in Banjul - The gambia - and when I touched the rickety and loosely wired shower attachment to get the water running I got a shock. Not a large one - but enough to alarm me. Foolishly I tried my luck again the next morning and got the same. Still managed to shower on both occassions.

Now that's gross stupidity for you!

[BuckarooBanzai]

To put the conductivity of water into perspective - Water's conductivity falls between the conductivity of a diamond and the conductivity of glass. This includes sea water, drinking water and de-ionized water.

http://en.wikipedia....nd_conductivity

I am reading the data on the above mentioned Wiki website differently, in regards to the electrical resistivity of water, glass, and diamond carbon. While I don't find fault with the Wiki site cited here, be careful with the various Wikis out there, as I have found on occasion that they contain 'information' I know to be false. Here is an excerpt from that site:

"The conductivity of a solution of water is highly dependent on its concentration of dissolved salts, and other chemical species that ionize in the solution."

Here is a URL for a website with information on how people get electrocuted:

http://www.bigsiteof...-electric-shock

Here is an excerpt from that site:

"For example, dry skin offers an electrical resistance of 100,000 ohms. Yet wet skin reduces this to 400 ohms, only double the resistance of salty water. So being soaked to the skin leaves us more vulnerable to harm."

I fully agree with the information you post with the exception of:

While I don't find fault with the Wiki site cited here, be careful with the various Wikis out there, as I have found on occasion that they contain 'information' I know to be false. Here is an excerpt from that site:

"The conductivity of a solution of water is highly dependent on its concentration of dissolved salts, and other chemical species that ionize in the solution."

The appearance of your presentation makes that statement appear false which is not the case although hopefully that was not what you were trying to imply.

I would like to clarify some of the reasoning behind the topics discussed on my post.

I included the comment on the conductivity of water to try and demonstrates that it is very unlikely you will get zapped by the shower spray that so many seemed concerned with.

I realize the increased dangers of a wet human coming into contact with a voltage differential over that of a dry human as this is the reason for the whole topic about electrical dangers in the shower. Water definitely increases the risk of electrocution in an unsafe environment but generally by direct contact with a primary conductor and not the water alone.

I then tried to point out the conditions that make a particular shower area unsafe. Being a wet human in a safe shower environment is "safe". Being a wet human in an unsafe electrical environment can lead to your death. For that matter being a dry human in an unsafe electrical environment can lead to your death as well.

An interesting slightly off topic side note is that being a wet sweaty person has its benefits. Sweat has saved numerous lives from electrocution when they have been unfortunate enough to get struck by lightning. The salty sweat conducts the lightning around the person and not through them thus reducing the severity of the strike on their body.

Cheers all - shower safe and avoid getting hit by lightening!

Edit - I added the lightening thing because our village really got zapped last night by the biggest lightning storm I have seen in 3 years!

[napalm]

In order to protect the members here from possibility of defamation/libel lawsuits, no naming of the bungalow please. If a news source names the bungalow, then it's in the open.

I was quoting the tabloid newspaper Aftonbladet:

www.aftonbladet.se

The name of the bungalows:

http://mildbungalow.com/

[JohanB]

Hi,

The hotel in Ao Nang was Mild Bungalows.

It is pubished in the swedish newspaper Expressen now.

Expressen.se

/JohanB

[Nisa]

In order to protect the members here from possibility of defamation/libel lawsuits, no naming of the bungalow please. If a news source names the bungalow, then it's in the open.

I was quoting the tabloid newspaper Aftonbladet:

www.aftonbladet.se

The name of the bungalows:

http://mildbungalow.com/

Appears to be a Mom and Pop operation.

TripAdvisor has a picture of the bathroom that doesn't show much but does appear to show the shower may have a metallic hose.

[aonangmrhuw]

TRANSLATION FROM THE NEWSPAPER AFTONBLADET

Thai hotel manager tells of fight to save the Swedes after the shower incident

AO NANG / LONDON. Heavy rains may have caused the death shower in Thailand where two young Swedes died.

According to the Swedish electrician Ronnie Rung in Ao Nang is carelessness with the installation, combined with heavy rain, have made hot water energized.

- There are no words, it should not have happen, "said one of the bereaved.

Mild Bungalows hotel a bit up from Ao Nang in Krabi in Thailand is that out of a horror movie: completely empty of people, little light and the hotel manager wanders around with a towel over her shoulders. He is sweaty and flattens his eyes.

Save room for

The staff sits listless in the reception. For fear of evil spirits dare not tidy bungalow A2.

It was in the Swedish couple who died of electrocution in the shower in the afternoon, local time, on Saturday. That it was energized water that caused the deaths is clear, according to hotel manager.

- Yes, it must be so. But why and whose fault is I do not know yet. I have worked here for eight years and nothing like this has happened, "said hotel manager who wishes to remain anonymous.

No pulse

Following the alert from the Swedes' travel companion rushed staff into the bungalow A1 and A2, which are combined. They found both the 25-year-old man and 23-year-old woman in the shower, lying on the floor. They took their manager who immediately began CPR.

- But I could not do it on two people simultaneously, so I concentrated on the man. He had no pulse when I started but suddenly gurgled a little when I gave him 20-30 touches the heart. Overall, I gave him 100 strokes and then he was awake five times.

- The woman had no pulse at all. She was the shower hose wrapped around the body in a strange way.

Hotel manager yelled at the staff to call an ambulance, but due to torrential rains during the day it became very late. When it came after half an hour, it could also just take one of the Swedes. Since the man had a little heart chose personnel him. The woman got the put in the back of hotel manager's private car to drive to the hospital.

The two friends of the deceased couple is very

shook, and now on his way home to Sweden. The four friends from Jämtland, Sweden submitted on 24 March and would be on holiday in Thailand in just over two weeks.

"Will the Dark"

- It was my daughter who found them, she had power in itself, "says one friend's dad.

- This should not be allowed to happen, I know that there is inadequate electricity down there. I am confident that they will be dark this. The police down there have been negligent. But I am grateful that my daughter lives, it might as well have been them, "says the friend's dad.

One of the victims' next of kin says she does not know much about the accident itself than:

- There are no words, it should not have happen, it's so unbelievable. But we do not know much yet. They were showering and the water became energized by the water heater. Their friends stayed course next door, "she says.

- Now we just want your friends to come home so we can hear their version.

No legislation

Police Protocol Aftonbladet noted the shows that the woman was in the shower first. When she screamed in pain the man rushed in - and also got power through the body. The woman has multiple elongated burns on the upper body, the man's feet are burned.

- Without having looked closely at it so I would guess that the vast skyfallet last Saturday has the misfortune to do. Any carelessness with the installation, combined with high rainfall, may have made the water is energized, "says Ronnie Rung from Surat who had previously been an electrician and is in Ao Nang on vacation.

Linus Valtonen, Ida Nilsson and Sara Hammarström are three other Swedes in the area.

- It's no wonder that this happens in Thailand. Safety is a low matter what, "says Sara Hammarström.

Legislation for electrical safety missing in Thailand.What are the rules that no one really needs to follow.The water heater is grounded is the exception. Similarly, no RCD in most homes.

Police have now dismantled the electric water heater that was in the roof of the bungalow to examine it closer.

[underthebridge]

I am an electrical engineer (since the days we still created circuit diagrams on blue-prints.)

1. Grounding an electric water heater of the type they here is not really important and may be a waste of time, in spite of the dire warnings you read on these threads. (Yes, I know what the safety manual says.)

2. BUT, using electric washing machine (where one actually touches the metallic inner drum after a cycle) is DEADLY without proper grounding.

Do you see the difference? In the shower you must be touching/exposed to some metal conduit AND there has to be faulty circuit. Extremely unlikely. But it is important for the unit to have at least one (preferably two) cut-outs in case of a circuit fault.

Most of the horror stories you hear about these water heaters are urban legend. In the real cases the victim grabbed/touched the metal pipe/nozzle of a unit that was incorrectly earthed. If it had not been earthed at all they would have been safer.

Well, consider this: Your heater is properly grounded and there is a fault in the washing machine next door and you happen to take a shower as this machine is emptying to the same draining pipe as the shower is draining to. Then the deadly touch may be conducted trough the drain and to the ground through the perfectly good heater - the opposite way of what you might think. This can even happen with PVC pipes as deposits iniside them might conduct the current. Even if there is no heater in the shower this may pose a danger as the taps may be grounded and the drain become live...

Example, in norwegian - "Neste" = "Next"

[Nisa]

TRANSLATION FROM THE NEWSPAPER AFTONBLADET

<snip>

Thanks for that. I hadn't even considered all the rain and water problems they have been having down there possibly playing a factor.

[Nisa]

I am an electrical engineer (since the days we still created circuit diagrams on blue-prints.)

1. Grounding an electric water heater of the type they here is not really important and may be a waste of time, in spite of the dire warnings you read on these threads. (Yes, I know what the safety manual says.)

2. BUT, using electric washing machine (where one actually touches the metallic inner drum after a cycle) is DEADLY without proper grounding.

Do you see the difference? In the shower you must be touching/exposed to some metal conduit AND there has to be faulty circuit. Extremely unlikely. But it is important for the unit to have at least one (preferably two) cut-outs in case of a circuit fault.

Most of the horror stories you hear about these water heaters are urban legend. In the real cases the victim grabbed/touched the metal pipe/nozzle of a unit that was incorrectly earthed. If it had not been earthed at all they would have been safer.

Well, consider this: Your heater is properly grounded and there is a fault in the washing machine next door and you happen to take a shower as this machine is emptying to the same draining pipe as the shower is draining to. Then the deadly touch may be conducted trough the drain and to the ground through the perfectly good heater - the opposite way of what you might think. This can even happen with PVC pipes as deposits iniside them might conduct the current. Even if there is no heater in the shower this may pose a danger as the taps may be grounded and the drain become live...

Example, in norwegian - "Neste" = "Next"

I have no idea how well of a conductor water in a pipe would be but it would be a continuous circuit and not open as the water coming out of the shower head.

Bottom line is you make a good point about it still being possible for a charge to be carried within a PVC pipe.

Although most people disregard this ... I know they tell us in the US that you shouldn't take a shower or bath during a lightning storm.

[JohanB]

There was, according to the news, an electric heated hot water tank below the roof, serving 2 bathrooms in the bungalow.

The standard thai-style in-wall plumbing for hot water, is by galvanized steel pipes down to the metal faucets also built into the wall, that we can se in the pictures.

What we also can see in one photo is a a glimpse of a metal shower hose.

If there was a conduct from the electric wiring into the heater tank, that metal spun hose will accordingly carry leathal voltages and current through the steel tubes!!

The wet tile floor with widespread rebars or metal mesh in the always wet concrete, is a perfect ground return path for the current.

The outlets are normally of plastic in Thailand and are probably not involved here.

This scenario also complies with the reported burns injuries.

So, if the hot water tank was properly grounded, this tragic accident would never have happend!! Only a blown fuse or some burned wires....

/JohanB, electronic engineer, Sweden

[siamiam]

Here is a URL to a report of a man killed because he urinated on a power line:

http://www.msnbc.msn...s/us_news-life/

The cable in this report was likely of much higher power than anything normally found in a residential home. But if a situation were to arise where foreign, more powerful electricity was somehow introduced into the home, it looks to me like an electrical path via the water stream leaving a shower head might become possible.

Come to think of it, with 240v residential in Thailand, couldn't a miswire or other type of fault produce 480v?

Actually turned out he was electrocuted through his hand and had nothing to do with urine ... http://seattletimes....ctrocution.html

To be electrocuted by urinating a high voltage line you would need to have your penis incredibly close to the downed line or have some other circumstances happening. But would guess it is still not something people should do.

OK, that one was a false report. Try this link, there are a number of 'electrocution by urination' cases reported here:

http://www.straightd...-the-third-rail

Also, I can assure people that when I 'go' my stream does not break up, so I am not yet convinved of the "incredibly close" statement being valid. Perhaps each individual is different in this regard.

[EyesWideOpen]

I bought a condo in Chiang Mai, and wanted to change the tired hot water heater. I flipped off the breaker, and started to take the old hot water heater out. To my surprise I got the living shit shocked out of me. After a bit of investigation I discovered that the original Thai master electrician had wired the breakers on the ground side, instead of the power side... So turning off the breaker still left the device live...

This exact same scenario of shower deaths happened in Phuket maybe 6 months ago, where a few people died in the same month due to ungrounded electric showers. Always amazing to see in Thailand how many people have to die before something is actually done to correct the problem......Or maybe this falls under the coincidence theory of the masterminds of the Chiang Mai police , to explain the 7 deaths at the Downtown Inn..... God I love this place !!!!!!!!

[Nisa]

Here is a URL to a report of a man killed because he urinated on a power line:

http://www.msnbc.msn...s/us_news-life/

The cable in this report was likely of much higher power than anything normally found in a residential home. But if a situation were to arise where foreign, more powerful electricity was somehow introduced into the home, it looks to me like an electrical path via the water stream leaving a shower head might become possible.

Come to think of it, with 240v residential in Thailand, couldn't a miswire or other type of fault produce 480v?

Actually turned out he was electrocuted through his hand and had nothing to do with urine ... http://seattletimes....ctrocution.html

To be electrocuted by urinating a high voltage line you would need to have your penis incredibly close to the downed line or have some other circumstances happening. But would guess it is still not something people should do.

OK, that one was a false report. Try this link, there are a number of 'electrocution by urination' cases reported here:

http://www.straightd...-the-third-rail

Also, I can assure people that when I 'go' my stream does not break up, so I am not yet convinved of the "incredibly close" statement being valid. Perhaps each individual is different in this regard.

The fact you are having to dig so deep to find cases of people being electrocuted while peeing and the results only turn up possible cases with extremely high wattage is in play should tell you something. First of all when extremely high power is involved the path of electricity will arc through the air. Think of lightning not needing a wire or stream of water to reach the ground.

Also if you look at the bottom of link you provided you will find this:

2009 addition: The

Mythbusters

TV show has pointed out that the urine stream would break into droplets shortly after exiting the penis and wouldn't provide a continuous path for the flow of current. However, it's possible that at sufficiently high voltage the juice could arc past the air gap.

With this said, I still advice AGAINST peeing on electric appliances or downed power lines.

By the way ... here is the video of actually trying to conduct electricity from a stream of urine. Note the only way they could get the electricity to go up the urine stream was if the person peed on the 600 Volt source from inches away ..

You may also want to checkout this link to see the person mentioned in your new link is an urban myth ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Patrick_O'Malley (need to cut and paste .. can't get link to work)