Cover-Up

[pj123]

The son of a family friend (21 years old) was involved in a motorcycle accident. He was the the driver, his best friend the passenger. No other vehicle involved. Due to his carelessness he lost control of the bike. He suffered some fractures, his friend died. No indication that alcohol or excessive speed was an issue. His family agreed with the police to say that the dead man was the driver and the son was the passenger (a family member is a cop). Their excuse is that, if they told the truth, he would go to jail. The family are civil servants. My opinion is that the only people who end up in Thai jails are either the poor or political prisoners. The sons of civil servants with a cop in the family never go to jail. Am I right? Would someone go to jail for something like this? I think they just don't want to accept responsibility. The family have known the deceased for about 6 years and I just cannot understand how thay can look his parents in the eye and lie to them.

[IanForbes]

Let sleeping dogs lie. There is no need to open wounds that would not solve any issue. The young man who made a mistake and accidently killed his friend will have to live with that for the rest of his life. Sometimes a lie, or what you call a cover-up, are best when nothing good can come of further discussions. What good would telling the truth bring? It certainly wouldn't bring the young man back to life and his friend who caused the death won't be any happier.

[Beetlejuice]

I would guess that the driver of the motorbike could be jailed for negligent driving if it was proven that this actually was the case. After all it is a fact that a young man has lost his life. For example what conclusion would anyone want if it were their son or a loved one.

But considering this is Thailand, where some people can be above the law, laws are open to manipulation depending on who you know, who you are or how much a person is willing and able to pay, then as Ian wisely pointed out, it`s best to let sleeping dogs lie, as there is not much any of us can do to change the situation.

All we can do is live on a hope and a prayer that nothing like this ever happens to us or anyone close to us.

Sad but true.

[johna]

There would not be much point in putting him in jail, lets just hope he learns something from this.

They should have told the family of the deceased what really happened.

[apetley]

Unfortunately it appears that if you can avoid responsibility rather than accept being at fault then that is the way things are done here. It also means that the family who's son died will receive no compensation by the look of things as that would mean admitting liability. Cowardly behaviour imo.

[Kilgore Trout]

Let sleeping dogs lie. There is no need to open wounds that would not solve any issue. The young man who made a mistake and accidently killed his friend will have to live with that for the rest of his life. Sometimes a lie, or what you call a cover-up, are best when nothing good can come of further discussions. What good would telling the truth bring? It certainly wouldn't bring the young man back to life and his friend who caused the death won't be any happier.

Ok Ian, well when your daughter, wife or mother is killed due to negligence (manslaughter) we will just let sleeping dogs lie.

Never mind if a drunken idiot plows into them ripping flesh from bone, leaving them to spend their last minutes bleeding to death on a lonely street.

Punishing the driver would be pointless right? What good would the truth bring?

[richard_smith237]

Some of the responses already posted here advocating the 'let sleeping dogs lie' approach are somewhat shocking.

The whole idea of 'punishment to fit the crime' is that it works mainly as a preventative measure.

For those guilty of neglegence on previous occasions, i.e. wreckless driving, drunk driving or whatever; Had the law been followed and had these same people been charged and penalised perhaps this young lad would be alive today. That is the whole point.

Punishing the lad for his mistake now doesn't help anyone immedately, but there is a bigger picutre.

Without punishment or a fitting course of action these crimes and accidents continue and responsibility continues to be avoided at all costs, with a lack of consequence society continues pay the price.

[IanForbes]

Let sleeping dogs lie. There is no need to open wounds that would not solve any issue. The young man who made a mistake and accidently killed his friend will have to live with that for the rest of his life. Sometimes a lie, or what you call a cover-up, are best when nothing good can come of further discussions. What good would telling the truth bring? It certainly wouldn't bring the young man back to life and his friend who caused the death won't be any happier.

Ok Ian, well when your daughter, wife or mother is killed due to negligence (manslaughter) we will just let sleeping dogs lie.

Never mind if a drunken idiot plows into them ripping flesh from bone, leaving them to spend their last minutes bleeding to death on a lonely street.

Punishing the driver would be pointless right? What good would the truth bring?

So what you are asking for is revenge for an accident between friends. Maybe we should just execute everyone who has an unfortunate accident. The young man's friend got willingly on the back of the motorcycle. They were FRIENDS! Nothing was intentional.

In this case, yes, punishing the driver anymore than he has already been punished WOULD be pointless. It's nothing even similar to a drunken driver going out and killing a bunch of people. I have a very good friend in New Zealand whose young son was killed by a 17 student driver who jumped a curb while driving his parents car and slammed into my friend and her son. My friend forgave him and didn't demand retribution. Neither would I unless it was intentional.

[Kilgore Trout]

Let sleeping dogs lie. There is no need to open wounds that would not solve any issue. The young man who made a mistake and accidently killed his friend will have to live with that for the rest of his life. Sometimes a lie, or what you call a cover-up, are best when nothing good can come of further discussions. What good would telling the truth bring? It certainly wouldn't bring the young man back to life and his friend who caused the death won't be any happier.

Ok Ian, well when your daughter, wife or mother is killed due to negligence (manslaughter) we will just let sleeping dogs lie.

Never mind if a drunken idiot plows into them ripping flesh from bone, leaving them to spend their last minutes bleeding to death on a lonely street.

Punishing the driver would be pointless right? What good would the truth bring?

So what you are asking for is revenge for an accident between friends. Maybe we should just execute everyone who has an unfortunate accident. The young man's friend got willingly on the back of the motorcycle. They were FRIENDS! Nothing was intentional.

In this case, yes, punishing the driver anymore than he has already been punished WOULD be pointless. It's nothing even similar to a drunken driver going out and killing a bunch of people. I have a very good friend in New Zealand whose young son was killed by a 17 student driver who jumped a curb while driving his parents car and slammed into my friend and her son. My friend forgave him and didn't demand retribution. Neither would I unless it was intentional.

Lying and covering up seem to indicate that there was foul play at hand. Were the victims parents even aware of the truth behind the incident?

If someone causes a fatality it may be proven that they were not liable; they still have to live with it for the rest of their life, but it doesn';t mean they don't have to take responsibility for it and it certainly doesn't give them the right to commit fraud by filing false police reports.

And; in response to your logic; what if someone doesn't give a crap that they killed somebody? Just because you have a conscience Ian, it doesn't mean everybody else does too. That is why we have laws, courts and due process. Are you saying it's OK to ignore the laws of Thailand just to "save face?"

[DP25]

My opinion is that the only people who end up in Thai jails are either the poor or political prisoners. The sons of civil servants with a cop in the family never go to jail. Am I right?

No

[happyrobert]

Let sleeping dogs lie. There is no need to open wounds that would not solve any issue. The young man who made a mistake and accidently killed his friend will have to live with that for the rest of his life. Sometimes a lie, or what you call a cover-up, are best when nothing good can come of further discussions. What good would telling the truth bring? It certainly wouldn't bring the young man back to life and his friend who caused the death won't be any happier.

First time I've wholeheartedly disagreed with you, Ian. Did you just turn off Oprah?

The truth is always best, no matter what the consequences. Lies lead to more lies.

The family has the right to know what really happened and not to go through their lives thinking their son caused the accident.

I know many who committed heinous crimes, and they "lived" with themselves just fine. You are assuming that the apple has a conscience even though the tree has no problem lying to the faces of friends.

[JurgenG]

I'll have to agree with Ian on this one.

A couple of years ago, the daughter of one of my neighbour and her friend, both of them was 14 at this time, had a motorcycle accident. The girl was driving and was badly injured, the passenger died. Same as the OP, the dead girl was officially identified as the driver.

What good will it make to make the girl responsible ? They both were where they shouldn't be, they both were drunk, the girl has no money, her family doesn't have any money either. The girl has been in and out of the hospital for the past few years, she will probably never walk properly again.

What good will it make to tell the "truth" ?

PS : Both families know what really happen, they both agree on the police report.

[IanForbes]

Lying and covering up seem to indicate that there was foul play at hand. Were the victims parents even aware of the truth behind the incident?

If someone causes a fatality it may be proven that they were not liable; they still have to live with it for the rest of their life, but it doesn';t mean they don't have to take responsibility for it and it certainly doesn't give them the right to commit fraud by filing false police reports.

And; in response to your logic; what if someone doesn't give a crap that they killed somebody? Just because you have a conscience Ian, it doesn't mean everybody else does too. That is why we have laws, courts and due process. Are you saying it's OK to ignore the laws of Thailand just to "save face?"

No, I do not say to ignore laws just to save face. But I also know laws are a rough guideline to prevent accidents and maintain some sort of order. Following something to the letter of the law is very often counter effective. Some leniency is often a better form of justice. I believe in justice where it serves a purpose. I also know that the law is an ass in many situations. We can also tie up the court system trying to prove fault when there is no need to do so.

In this case I don't know the family involved or what acctually happened. All I can do is make a rough judgement from the information I receive. There are MANY accidents where nobody has been killed and yet might have been. I see very little difference when there is no INTENT to commit harm. A person who drinks and drives and causes an accident has knowingly set a course of action that could cause an accident. Riding a motorbike is ALWAYS risky, and getting on one with someone else at the controls is a further risk. BOTH young men took a risk and one died. I see young Thai guys racing through traffic all the time and taking chances. Does that mean we should put them all in jail if they have an accident? Accidentally Killing a friend while you are at the controls IS ALREADY A PENALTY! It probably also means the young man will never forget what caused it.

Now, we could also have the young man put in prison. But, what purpose would that serve, other than revenge?

[Kilgore Trout]

Now, we could also have the young man put in prison. But, what purpose would that serve, other than revenge?

As another poster mentioned; the truth is always the best way to go.

Filing a false police report is a serious crime.

One reason we have laws is for "deterrence." The purpose of holding the survivor accountable for his actions serves to set an example so others don't make tragic mistakes such as this.

What purpose does sweeping this under the rug serve; to tell people that it is ok to lie and commit a serious crime in order to "let sleeping dogs lie?"

[robblok]

I'll have to agree with Ian on this one.

A couple of years ago, the daughter of one of my neighbour and her friend, both of them was 14 at this time, had a motorcycle accident. The girl was driving and was badly injured, the passenger died. Same as the OP, the dead girl was officially identified as the driver.

What good will it make to make the girl responsible ? They both were where they shouldn't be, they both were drunk, the girl has no money, her family doesn't have any money either. The girl has been in and out of the hospital for the past few years, she will probably never walk properly again.

What good will it make to tell the "truth" ?

PS : Both families know what really happen, they both agree on the police report.

I really dont know what i should think about this. Part of me says punish her for driving drunk, but they both were drunk and its just luck of the draw that one of them was driving. It could have been the other too.

In the case of the OP if it was just an accident then let it be an accident and there should not be any problems because of it. Its crazy to send people to jail for an accident. Unless it was clear that the driver was doing crazy stuff.

[jimbeam1]

Let sleeping dogs lie. There is no need to open wounds that would not solve any issue. The young man who made a mistake and accidently killed his friend will have to live with that for the rest of his life. Sometimes a lie, or what you call a cover-up, are best when nothing good can come of further discussions. What good would telling the truth bring? It certainly wouldn't bring the young man back to life and his friend who caused the death won't be any happier.

Ok Ian, well when your daughter, wife or mother is killed due to negligence (manslaughter) we will just let sleeping dogs lie.

Never mind if a drunken idiot plows into them ripping flesh from bone, leaving them to spend their last minutes bleeding to death on a lonely street.

Punishing the driver would be pointless right? What good would the truth bring?

So what you are asking for is revenge for an accident between friends. Maybe we should just execute everyone who has an unfortunate accident. The young man's friend got willingly on the back of the motorcycle. They were FRIENDS! Nothing was intentional.

In this case, yes, punishing the driver anymore than he has already been punished WOULD be pointless. It's nothing even similar to a drunken driver going out and killing a bunch of people. I have a very good friend in New Zealand whose young son was killed by a 17 student driver who jumped a curb while driving his parents car and slammed into my friend and her son. My friend forgave him and didn't demand retribution. Neither would I unless it was intentional.

Wouldn't it be nice to let the law sort this out? It is just not right for the police and the family of the person who caused this death, to stand in judgement. To keep the truth from the victims family, is utterly disgusting and criminal.

jb1

[IanForbes]

As another poster mentioned; the truth is always the best way to go.

Filing a false police report is a serious crime.

One reason we have laws is for "deterrence." The purpose of holding the survivor accountable for his actions serves to set an example so others don't make tragic mistakes such as this.

What purpose does sweeping this under the rug serve; to tell people that it is ok to lie and commit a serious crime in order to "let sleeping dogs lie?"

I don't entirely disagree with you. I'm just saying that at this point it is best to let it rest. No, the young man should NOT have reported that his friend was driving the motorbike. But, the report has already been filed. It is over, and digging it up just as some form of twisted justice will prove nothing. Many people say and do things that are not right when they are under stress, but let's be sensible in this case. It's over and finished and nothing will be gained by digging it up. If you would rather have the young man go to jail then that is your right to your position. But, in doing so then maybe we should lock up everyone who has ever had an accident and has told a lie to cover up their part in it. We could probably lock up a third of the population.

[F1fanatic]

As another poster mentioned; the truth is always the best way to go.

Filing a false police report is a serious crime.

One reason we have laws is for "deterrence." The purpose of holding the survivor accountable for his actions serves to set an example so others don't make tragic mistakes such as this.

What purpose does sweeping this under the rug serve; to tell people that it is ok to lie and commit a serious crime in order to "let sleeping dogs lie?"

I don't entirely disagree with you. I'm just saying that at this point it is best to let it rest. No, the young man should NOT have reported that his friend was driving the motorbike. But, the report has already been filed. It is over, and digging it up just as some form of twisted justice will prove nothing. Many people say and do things that are not right when they are under stress, but let's be sensible in this case. It's over and finished and nothing will be gained by digging it up. If you would rather have the young man go to jail then that is your right to your position. But, in doing so then maybe we should lock up everyone who has ever had an accident and has told a lie to cover up their part in it. We could probably lock up a third of the population.

Perhaps here, but its far more unusual in the West for people to pretend someone else was driving.

The posters that missed your point entirely and commented on how right you were that 'the truth is always best' need to read your original post again.

Unfortunately there are many people in this world that have no conscience - and really don't care that somebody else has died even though they were to blame. They may (occasionally) think "what a shame that I'VE lost my best friend (i.e. they have lost something) - but other than that they're just glad to get away with it....

[edwinchester]

Appalling that the police here are complicit in the filing of a false report and the wrongful apportion of blame. The family of the innocent guy are due compensation not just for his loss but also for death expenses such as the funeral. I would not be surprised if the coward that survived decides to pursue compensation from the family of the deceased.

[Kilgore Trout]

As another poster mentioned; the truth is always the best way to go.

Filing a false police report is a serious crime.

One reason we have laws is for "deterrence." The purpose of holding the survivor accountable for his actions serves to set an example so others don't make tragic mistakes such as this.

What purpose does sweeping this under the rug serve; to tell people that it is ok to lie and commit a serious crime in order to "let sleeping dogs lie?"

I don't entirely disagree with you. I'm just saying that at this point it is best to let it rest. No, the young man should NOT have reported that his friend was driving the motorbike. But, the report has already been filed. It is over, and digging it up just as some form of twisted justice will prove nothing. Many people say and do things that are not right when they are under stress, but let's be sensible in this case. It's over and finished and nothing will be gained by digging it up. If you would rather have the young man go to jail then that is your right to your position. But, in doing so then maybe we should lock up everyone who has ever had an accident and has told a lie to cover up their part in it. We could probably lock up a third of the population.

Only one thing, as someone else pointed out. Do the family of the deceased know that their child was NOT at fault? If they don't know then an incredible injustice has been done and it should be dug up. Full stop. What if it was your child who died? Wouldn't you like to know what really happened?

[F1fanatic]

Appalling that the police here are complicit in the filing of a false report and the wrongful apportion of blame. The family of the innocent guy are due compensation not just for his loss but also for death expenses such as the funeral. I would not be surprised if the coward that survived decides to pursue compensation from the family of the deceased.

I doubt the police know the truth - they will only know what they have been told by the survivors.

Presumably they were both drunk so neither family 'deserves' compensation...

Hopefully, the guilty party is not bad enough to claim compensation from the deceased's family.

[happyrobert]

And here is one more reason our world is disintegrating around us. No one wants to be held accountable for their actions and decisions. Lying is condoned. Deceit, even by law enforcement, is acceptable. The ends justify the means.

The fact that there is debate about this on this forum is telling.

[robblok]

And here is one more reason our world is disintegrating around us. No one wants to be held accountable for their actions and decisions. Lying is condoned. Deceit, even by law enforcement, is acceptable. The ends justify the means.

The fact that there is debate about this on this forum is telling.

That kinda depends on the law doesn't it. If the law is unjust and forces people to lie then you cant blame people. Here people get extorted by the police even if the other party does not want to prosecute. If i were on my bike with my wife and i lost control over the bike they could still send me to jail. Even though it was just an accident.

[mario299]

I had to go back and re-read the original post a couple of times. It is stated that no drugs or alcohol was involved, that the driver lost control and the accident happened. The survivor and his family and the police decided to change the facts and say that the deceased was the driver and the one at fault for the accident.

I cannot help but feel that the facts were changed so that the survivor would not have to compensate the deceased friend's family, as is what usually happens between Thais in this kind of circumstance. Was there any insurance coverage for the motorcycle that would pay? Probably not, so thus the need to change the facts. When it comes down to money in Thailand, friendship can take a quick back seat. I would feel, maybe incorrectly, that the police were compensated for "changing the facts" of the accident, so that the survivor and his civil servant family would not have to pay compensation (a goodly amount probably) to the deceased family members.

All in all a very sad story, but I certainly feel that the truth should always be the bottom line. I would want that if it happened to me...wouldn't you??

:(mario299

[zzaa09]

Appalling that the police here are complicit in the filing of a false report and the wrongful apportion of blame. The family of the innocent guy are due compensation not just for his loss but also for death expenses such as the funeral. I would not be surprised if the coward that survived decides to pursue compensation from the family of the deceased.

Appalling perhaps, but quite commonly accepted nonetheless.

[pj123]

As another poster mentioned; the truth is always the best way to go.

Filing a false police report is a serious crime.

One reason we have laws is for "deterrence." The purpose of holding the survivor accountable for his actions serves to set an example so others don't make tragic mistakes such as this.

What purpose does sweeping this under the rug serve; to tell people that it is ok to lie and commit a serious crime in order to "let sleeping dogs lie?"

I don't entirely disagree with you. I'm just saying that at this point it is best to let it rest. No, the young man should NOT have reported that his friend was driving the motorbike. But, the report has already been filed. It is over, and digging it up just as some form of twisted justice will prove nothing. Many people say and do things that are not right when they are under stress, but let's be sensible in this case. It's over and finished and nothing will be gained by digging it up. If you would rather have the young man go to jail then that is your right to your position. But, in doing so then maybe we should lock up everyone who has ever had an accident and has told a lie to cover up their part in it. We could probably lock up a third of the population.

Only one thing, as someone else pointed out. Do the family of the deceased know that their child was NOT at fault? If they don't know then an incredible injustice has been done and it should be dug up. Full stop. What if it was your child who died? Wouldn't you like to know what really happened?

Just to clarify. The family of the deceased do not know the truth.

[pj123]

Appalling that the police here are complicit in the filing of a false report and the wrongful apportion of blame. The family of the innocent guy are due compensation not just for his loss but also for death expenses such as the funeral. I would not be surprised if the coward that survived decides to pursue compensation from the family of the deceased.

I doubt the police know the truth - they will only know what they have been told by the survivors.

Presumably they were both drunk so neither family 'deserves' compensation...

Hopefully, the guilty party is not bad enough to claim compensation from the deceased's family.

The police know and are complicit in this. I understand it was their suggestion. As far as I know alcohol was not an issue. Just carelessness. The driver had his backpack on his left shoulder. It slipped off his shoulder down his arm. While adjusting it he lost control and crashed.

[Beetlejuice]

Let sleeping dogs lie. There is no need to open wounds that would not solve any issue. The young man who made a mistake and accidently killed his friend will have to live with that for the rest of his life. Sometimes a lie, or what you call a cover-up, are best when nothing good can come of further discussions. What good would telling the truth bring? It certainly wouldn't bring the young man back to life and his friend who caused the death won't be any happier.

Ok Ian, well when your daughter, wife or mother is killed due to negligence (manslaughter) we will just let sleeping dogs lie.

Never mind if a drunken idiot plows into them ripping flesh from bone, leaving them to spend their last minutes bleeding to death on a lonely street.

Punishing the driver would be pointless right? What good would the truth bring?

I agree both with you and with Ian and can see the two sides of the argument.

Firstly, the OP never mentioned that the driver of the motorbike had been drinking or involved any drunk drivers.. I believe that if this were the case, then the guy should have been placed in jail and the key thrown away, or better still set alight and I`m being serious here. Why not dish them out some Middle Eastern style justice.

And of course you are absolutely right, that nothing is more effective as to change an opinion then when an incident affects them personally. Absolutely agree, can't argue with that.

But we must also look at this case according to the circumstances that lead up to the tragic death of a young man. It is possible the driver was just tired and dozed off, a bug flew into his eye, or a cat ran into his path? Who knows? The OP has been quite vague with the details.

I don't know anything for sure; I'm no expert at anything. Just trying to put myself into the position of a judge in court and asking; what would he do?

My children are using these shitty death trap motorbikes are all day long, travelling to they're places of work and studies. From the moment they go out, I not only worry I also pray and I'm not even religious.

To be perfectly honest, if one of my kids died under similar circumstances as the OPs friend, I don`t know what I would do or how I would handle it.

I think that`s the same for everyone, no one knows for sure until these things happen.

Anyway, I`m going to have a beer, watch Demi Moore appearing nude in a DVD movie and think about other things.

[snarky66]

A couple of years ago, the daughter of one of my neighbour and her friend, both of them was 14 at this time, had a motorcycle accident. The girl was driving and was badly injured, the passenger died. Same as the OP, the dead girl was officially identified as the driver.

OK so 14 years old, drunk & driving a motorcycle. Those parents should get a medal for their child raising skills.

[happyrobert]

Now, we could also have the young man put in prison. But, what purpose would that serve, other than revenge?

Revenge is when an individual takes the law into his own hands. Justice is the role of government.