Teaching On A Retirement Visa

[thaisomchai]

I have just been offered a job teaching at a university here and, though I have been enjoying retirement quite a bit, I am considering a return to the classroom.

The person who offered the position assures me that my retirement visa will be unaffected and that the Work Permit will be handled by the university. As I understand it, I simply continue with renewing my retirement visa as before and the university arranges the Work Permit. Evidently they will pay for both of these ( nice) and I have only to make one trip to Immigration with the person in change of such doings.

Now, when I previously taught at a university here, I remember things being amazingly complicated with the visa and work permit being intertwined and the whole business requiring visits to several offices. This was before my retirement visa.

I am also curious how things work at the other end. When I leave the university, do they simply cancel my Work Permit and leave my retirement visa untouched?

Anybody with first hand knowledge of these things?

[Colabamumbai]

My experience this week with Retirement Visa, hired to teach here, in Roi-Et. The school called the labor office to see if I could use my current visa. The labor office would not accept my Retirement Visa and had to go to Vientiane and get a Non B.

On a Non B type visa you have seven days to leave the country after your employment ends.

[lopburi3]

A work permit should not be issued on a retirement extension of stay. Years ago it was done on occasion but have not seen any recent reports of it happening. And work permits are from Labor so there are still two offices involved (but the process is a little better as work permit does not have to be keyed to visa time). Believe you will have to change to non immigrant B visa entry and extend on school work basis. Which will end the day such work ends. You can then return to retirement if you qualify.

[NancyL]

You may wish to talk with others teaching at the same university who are doing the same thing the university claims can be done. Ask to see their passports and work permits.

You'll find that most of the responses on this forum will show it's not possible to get a work permit with an 12-month visa based on retirement extension, but I do know of one person in CM who claims to be doing just this. I haven't asked to see his passport or visa, though. It's really none of my business since I have no plans to teach at his university. He rightly points out that visa extensions and work permits are issued by different government departments.

[thaisomchai]

You may wish to talk with others teaching at the same university who are doing the same thing the university claims can be done. Ask to see their passports and work permits.

You'll find that most of the responses on this forum will show it's not possible to get a work permit with an 12-month visa based on retirement extension, but I do know of one person in CM who claims to be doing just this. I haven't asked to see his passport or visa, though. It's really none of my business since I have no plans to teach at his university. He rightly points out that visa extensions and work permits are issued by different government departments.

Good suggestion. I may just do that Nancy . .I already know some of them from my previous university. I have not yet accepted the position and this is one of the factors in making that decision that I am most concerned about.

I am being told that several other teachers are on retirement visas and have work permits.tBut does seem to be such a contradiction on the face of it and I really wonder if Thai law would have this "loophole".

This might be a deal breaker as I dont want to go through giving up my retirement visa, getting a "work" visa, tying this together with the Work Permit, generating all those forms, and photos etc and going through all the hassle at the other end of things.

[Jingthing]

The law says no work allowed on retirement extensions. Seems clear enough to me.

[moe666]

You can work on a non-o

[Mario2008]

You can work on a non-o

On a non-o normally a work permit is isued.

But when you have an extension of stay, they look at the reason for the extension of stay and in the case of retirement it is (normally) not issued.

[Maestro]

The law says no work allowed on retirement extensions. Seems clear enough to me.

I assume you mean the Alien Working Act B.E. 2551 (2008). I can't find any reference to retirement extension there and would be grateful if you gave me the section number for future reference when this question comes up again.

[thaisomchai]

The law says no work allowed on retirement extensions. Seems clear enough to me.

I assume you mean the Alien Working Act B.E. 2551 (2008). I can't find any reference to retirement extension there and would be grateful if you gave me the section number for future reference when this question comes up again.

I dont see any such reference either.

It does seem to present a basic contradiction ( are you retired OR are you working?) But the simple fact that these two things (visa/ Work permit) come from two different government departments means that there must be further inter-departmental directives of the sort that link the non immigrant B directly to the Work permit. Anything in writing to describe this?

I am getting two different stories here. The university offering the position tells me that they already have faculty on retirement visas with Work Permits. I havent had the chance yet to ask for passports from these folks, but I honestly dont think the university would lie about this rather important fact. They may have an "understanding" with the local Immigration officer, they may have further knowledge about how the two Thai government departments work together . .at this point I just dont know.

[Colabamumbai]

The law says no work allowed on retirement extensions. Seems clear enough to me.

I assume you mean the Alien Working Act B.E. 2551 (2008). I can't find any reference to retirement extension there and would be grateful if you gave me the section number for future reference when this question comes up again.

I dont see any such reference either.

It does seem to present a basic contradiction ( are you retired OR are you working?) But the simple fact that these two things (visa/ Work permit) come from two different government departments means that there must be further inter-departmental directives of the sort that link the non immigrant B directly to the Work permit. Anything in writing to describe this?

I am getting two different stories here. The university offering the position tells me that they already have faculty on retirement visas with Work Permits. I havent had the chance yet to ask for passports from these folks, but I honestly dont think the university would lie about this rather important fact. They may have an "understanding" with the local Immigration officer, they may have further knowledge about how the two Thai government departments work together . .at this point I just dont know.

From my short time living and teaching in Thailand I know that school directors know very little about what is necessary for a foreigner to get the required visas and work permit. The director at my school recently told me that the Canadian Embassy would transfer visas to new passport from old. (chuckle). They are not aware of the hoops that we must jump thru. They repeat the standard line, you must go to Laos to change your visa, whereas I could change my visa to Non B from Non 0 retirement without having to leave the country. Get used to being told things that may not necessarily be true.

[avidflyer]

1. Department of Labor requires any non-O to get a work permit.

2. Immigration can not extend a retirement visa if they know that you are working.

[lopburi3]

1. Department of Labor requires any non-O to get a work permit.

Most work permits are not even issued on a non O visa entry - B is the normal visa for work permits. There are many reports of people not able to obtain a work permit issue on a non immigrant O visa (not just for retirement) so it makes a difference where you apply and perhaps who you work for.

[thaisomchai]

Still no clear answers here. I meet with university officials on Tuesday.

Worst case scenario: Say I get the Work Permit and continue my retirement visa. . .next extension due in September after classes start and presumably after I get the Work Permit.

This seems most likely to happen as I am interested in the position and as it was offered to me, will accept it.

What is the most likely scenario if Immigration decides in January that I have done something wrong in setting this up? ( Even though the university will be handling the paperwork I understand.)

Will I be liable for some some of legal action, fines, deportation? Will I get arrested in my classroom some day and hauled off to prison or even worse, barred from the country?

Anybody ever faced Immigration dept proceedures for obtaining the wrong visa? ( Though of course they will have issued it and it would really be an issue for them to take up with the Labour dept. ) But this is Thailand after all. I am trying to weigh my personal risk here.

[lopburi3]

Believe most of us would just say no more extensions of stay for retirement. But want to caution that on my last renewal in June we had to sign paper that any violation (being here when no longer eligible) could result in prosecution under Thai laws.

[NancyL]

Still no clear answers here. I meet with university officials on Tuesday.

Worst case scenario: Say I get the Work Permit and continue my retirement visa. . .next extension due in September after classes start and presumably after I get the Work Permit.

This seems most likely to happen as I am interested in the position and as it was offered to me, will accept it.

What is the most likely scenario if Immigration decides in January that I have done something wrong in setting this up? ( Even though the university will be handling the paperwork I understand.)

Will I be liable for some some of legal action, fines, deportation? Will I get arrested in my classroom some day and hauled off to prison or even worse, barred from the country?

Anybody ever faced Immigration dept proceedures for obtaining the wrong visa? ( Though of course they will have issued it and it would really be an issue for them to take up with the Labour dept. ) But this is Thailand after all. I am trying to weigh my personal risk here.

It's good that you met with university officials, but ultimately you'll be the one to suffer the consequences and the worst case for them is that they lose a teacher. You stand to lose a lot more.

As you can see from the replies, like much in Thailand, this is a grey area and much depends upon the local immigration office and, perhaps, their relationship with the university. You really should talk with some of your potential peers, i.e. other foreign teachers at the same university on retirement extensions to see what has happened to them when they've gone in for a retirement extension after receiving a WP. If the university can't point you toward others in the same situation, if they say you're the first, then you might want to think about how much you want to become a "test case" for them.

[Issangeorge]

I have a Non Immigrant O Visa with a one year extension and it is clearly marked on the extension "Retirement" I have just being issued from the Roi-et labour office a work permit, I have previously had one from the Mukdahan Labour office and three from the Kalasin Labour office, all on the same VISA. This time though I was asked for a copy of my marriage certificate. I had never been asked for that before and don't even know how they knew I was married since I have a retirement visa. As far as Immigration is concerned they have no knowledge that I am working and my visa has nothing to do with the school.

[fcgprg]

If you have a extension of stay based on retirement you cannot work and you will be breaking the conditions of your extension if you do.

[Colabamumbai]

I have a Non Immigrant O Visa with a one year extension and it is clearly marked on the extension "Retirement" I have just being issued from the Roi-et labour office a work permit, I have previously had one from the Mukdahan Labour office and three from the Kalasin Labour office, all on the same VISA. This time though I was asked for a copy of my marriage certificate. I had never been asked for that before and don't even know how they knew I was married since I have a retirement visa. As far as Immigration is concerned they have no knowledge that I am working and my visa has nothing to do with the school.

The Roi-Et labor office just told Anuban Roi-Et School that I cannot get a work permit based on my Non 0 retirement visa. The school made me change the visa to Non B in order to get the work permit.

[Issangeorge]

I did get a work permit last week and as I say I have got one from three different labour offices. The only thing I can suggest is that there are two types of Non O retirement visas. There is the Non Immigrant "Oa" usually given in your home country and then there is an non immigrant O. The one I am on now is a "Non-Immigrant O" issued in Savannakhet Lao. I originally applied for a marriage visa and this is the visa I got. It was for three months and when I went to the immigration office in Mukdahan (that was the office I used at the time) I took all the documents needed for a marriage visa and my wife went with me. They extended the Visa for a year and stamped "Retirement" on it. I explained I wanted a marriage visa because I wanted to get a work permit, They said no problem with this Visa and so far they were right. I have since extended my Visa at the Nakhon Phanom Office (that was the office I had to use at the time), and at the Sakhon Nakorn Office(that was the office I had to use at the time), they both stamped "Retirement" in my Visa and I have been given a work permit on both extensions. I now have to go before the end of the month to further extend my Visa. Perhaps it is the Non-immigrant Oa they will not issue a work permit on/ Issangeorge. Oh does anyone know the e-mail address for the Sakhon Nakorn Immigration Office?

[thaisomchai]

Still in the works on this and I appreciate all the input from various quarters.

What I have discovered:

The university is on excellent terms with the local immigration department.

Several faculty are doing this.

It appears that it is the Work Permit which really counts. You just cant work without a work permit and I will get one.

The visa apparently does NOT have to match.

Due to the close expiration date of my most recent extension and the start of the semester, to apply for a non-Imm B to go with the work permit would require either a lengthy overstay OR getting the new retirement extension and one or two months later changing it for a Non-Imm B ..big waste of time and money IMHO.

I also understand that it is an really issue between the Dept of Labour and the Immigration Dept.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

New question: Does anyone know of any actual case where a person, sponsored by the University with a valid work permit and a valid retirement visa has been

1.caught

2. warned

3.prosecuted

4. questioned

5. brought to the attention of either Dept of Labour or Immigration

6.made to change the visa ( presented to me as the most likely scenario)

7. Other

I know we can all speculate until the cows come home . . .but I want to know if anything has actually happened in this situation in the real world that is Thailand!

[Ginkas]

Just to add to the knowledge base.

I did know someone a few years ago, when I was working, who got a work permit and teacher's licence while on a retirement extension.

All was fine until, a few months later he went to renew the retirement extension.

He was told by immigration that his extension had become invalid on the day the work permit was issued.

He was fined the maximum 20,000 baht and they would not renew his extension.

He was given 7 days, for 1,900 baht, to make arrangements to leave and obtain a non-immigrant B visa from a consular office abroad.

[TerryLH]

"They are not aware of the hoops that we must jump thru.' ..."

Get used to being told things that may not necessarily be true."[/i]

Such as,

"On a Non B type visa you have seven days to leave the country after your employment ends."

I don't think that's correct for a visa or an extension.

[jombom]

In this country, many rules and supposed laws turn out to be guidelines.

Just about everybody knows about the inconsistencies, in the legal marriage age.

Recently, I heard of people under 50 getting retirement visas ---- figure that out.

So getting a work permit on a retirement extension of stay, does not surprise me in the slightest.

In fact, to be truthful, nothing in this country surprises me anymore. Amazing Thailand.

[lopburi3]

"They are not aware of the hoops that we must jump thru.' ..."

Get used to being told things that may not necessarily be true."[/i]

Such as,

"On a Non B type visa you have seven days to leave the country after your employment ends."

I don't think that's correct for a visa or an extension.

That indeed was the policy up until recently but now you must pay normal 1,900 baht for an extension of stay application (which is then not approved) to obtain the seven days. They still allow seven days but you must visit immigration to invalidate your working extension of stay and request it.

[mca]

Recently, I heard of people under 50 getting retirement visas ---- figure that out.

No disrespects intended at all but I find that very hard to believe. If you're under 50 you simply don't meet the criteria. I've asked on numerous occasions at numerous immigration offices ( me being 44 ) and the answer has always been a straightforward " No"

[beano2274]

Recently, I heard of people under 50 getting retirement visas ---- figure that out.

No disrespects intended at all but I find that very hard to believe. If you're under 50 you simply don't meet the criteria. I've asked on numerous occasions at numerous immigration offices ( me being 44 ) and the answer has always been a straightforward " No"

Sorry, but when I did my last extension based on marriage (am 45 btw), the Immigration officer suggested I apply for an extension based on Retirement, as the paperwork does not go to Chaengwattana, and the decision can be made there and then at the discretion of the Officer. If they stamp the extension with "Retirement" is another matter.

For info this was Nonthaburi.

Maybe you made the mistake of asking for it, I did not he recommended I do it!!!!!!!

[thaisomchai]

Thanks Gingkas . .that is the kind of info I am looking for.

Worst case scenario then appears to be a big fine and the bother of leaving the country and getting a new visa.

This I can deal with.

My greatest fear is being deported and not being allowed back in.

What I may do is work this first year on the retirement visa and then change to the Non-Imm B when it comes due for renewal again. The problem with getting a non-Imm B now is one of timing. My retirement extension expires (mid-September) before any of the paperwork can be processed. I still haven't signed the contract or been vetted by the Higher Ed Council or even begun the work permit application process.

[mca]

Recently, I heard of people under 50 getting retirement visas ---- figure that out.

No disrespects intended at all but I find that very hard to believe. If you're under 50 you simply don't meet the criteria. I've asked on numerous occasions at numerous immigration offices ( me being 44 ) and the answer has always been a straightforward " No"

Sorry, but when I did my last extension based on marriage (am 45 btw), the Immigration officer suggested I apply for an extension based on Retirement, as the paperwork does not go to Chaengwattana, and the decision can be made there and then at the discretion of the Officer. If they stamp the extension with "Retirement" is another matter.

For info this was Nonthaburi.

Maybe you made the mistake of asking for it, I did not he recommended I do it!!!!!!!

Interesting beano. Thanks. Discretion of officer in complete contravention to the immigration law. Wonder how far that would cover somebody's arse should it be scrutinized by somebody else. It's not as if they're giving you slack for being one day over on a 90 day report or something minor like that.

[Soutpeel]

You can see their logic behind all this, you have be approved to live in Thailand on retirement and now you want to change that status, so can see why they want you on another visa type, either a B or a married "O"