Minimum Wage Proposal Causing Great Anxiety

[englishinsiam]

While the intentions of some people here is noble, many need to try to own and run business in Thailand and i do not mean just internet "i have a business"

I own some hotels, and i can tell you, some people come for job interview in boxer shorts, without a shower, un-brushed hair, dirty cloths etc.

Some staff simply come to work and sit there doing nothing, and when i say nothing i mean NOTHING.

1 housekeeper i had, it took her 6 hours to clean 1 room and mind you she was on double the minimum wage.

I have written out point by point instructions on what needs to be done daily and still same employees do nothing. Some can not even answer the phone.

And some here believe those should get a pay rise? if anything, their pay should be half.

There is no work ethics in Thailand, no loyalty or desire to succeed especially when it come to unskilled labor.

I have 3 times the needed staff because they simply do not care, raising their wage will not make them work or care any more or harder, all it will do is cost me more money but than i will fire half of them.

Although I don't agree with everything you say I agree with this.

Finding good hard working Thai staff in lower skilled jobs is nigh on impossible, 2 cases to hand.

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I have a friend in Pattaya has a giftware business he is a very friendly chap buys his staff lunch pays around 8,000 Baht a month. He caught one girl out not going to places to sell she told him she was going to. He let her go and the end result was a visit from immigration. He had set his company up properly and immigration had to find something so he and his brother were fined 15,000 Baht each. Effectively this was a bribe to be left in peace. I'm sure the girl got her 5,000 baht bounty out of that.

When setting up his commission he talked about a 6,000 Basic rising upto 12-15,000 baht OTE as these are sales roles. I advised him that would never work in Thailand as they would happily sit on their jacksies for 6,000 baht a month. He would have to do this in a reverse way. Start at 12,000 Baht and if they don't perform x amount is taken off eah week. Even that didn't work so now he has to change his business model and sell solely online. End result is initially 4 Thai's have a job now there are none.

Another case I was talking to an American and his wife during the red shirt riots they have land and lakes in Issan. He was paying his staff 150-250 baht a day depending on role but during the riots had to effectively close up as he couldn't afford to pay them the same as Thaksin to go and riot. 70% of his staff went to the riots (I don't call them protests). I said sack them and employ others dereliction of duty, he said impossible because they'd come back and shoot him.

A serious case of the Tail wagging the dog.

Educated Thai's have a great work ethic but sadly many of the under educated are lazy and can't be bothered.

[TAWP]

Much of the opposition to the minimum wage proposal simply reflects the rage and mean spiritedness of the Sino Thai political and business establishment who have built their fortunes on monopolies,protection and low wages.

So anyone that opposes the minimum wage increase or the full concept - no matter what country they argue or reside in - is a reflection of the mean spritited Sino Thai corporatist?

Ah, the nutty black-and-white distortion you call 'your view'.

[hellodolly]

Our company stuck the pay up for the few relevant staff already - before the election infact as it was obvious it was coming and keeping staff morale high was important. It seems they did the right thing to me and it wont be passed on to customers as it just knocks a small amount off of profit.

Edited to add: our company isnt a slave labour intensive one but relies mostly on highly paid professionals and makes a reasonable but not inflated profit every year

Goody goody for your company.

But as you say a few not the majority or not all of them.

I am sure that most companies can handle a higher wage for a few of their employes. But that is not even close to what this is all about.

Just out of curiosity were this few the management?

[TAWP]

Good thing this new government isn't run by mean spirited Sino Thai political and business establishment who have built their fortunes on monopolies, protection, and low wages.

There are some similarities I agree but also some differences.One key difference is they were voted in by the Thai majority and are not dependent or bound to feudalists, a corrupt military and old fashioned monopoly capitalists.

I'm a little bit surprised that you are so ignorant as to how this is exactly how the PTP is bound to local feudalists in many of the regions they took home in the election.

Or the fact that this is exactly how TRT was built, buying up the local feudal lords and their MPs that just kept winning election after election - to create one large party.

[TAWP]

The most sensible option in my opinion would be to raise minimum wage in proportion with inflation. ie if inflation is at 5%, raise minimum wage by 5% and not to the same level across all country but respectively for each province.

One is still left with an inadequate minimum wage. The fact remains that the current minimum wage is inadequate.

Please describe what an adequate minimum wage should cover.

[hellodolly]

As I said it was on another thread where you claimed 21 employes and you on this thread say you can get along with one third of the employs you have 7 is one third of 21. I did not say what was needed for your business I suggested you personally could use a course in management. That was based on the facts you have given here.

Further more if you claim one thing on one thread I would suggest you use the same fact on all the different threads you post on.

I got a new pair of reading glaess last week but I do not need them to recegnize a Thai basher when I see one.

Mate, seriously come back to reality! where did i say 1/3? or all the other dribble you coming out with?Please stop imagining things or making things up.

Considering that you have problems just reading simple words black on white, i seriously doubt you are more capable of seeing anything else any better.

suggest you read your post number 33 on this thread.

Here is a excerpt from it.

"I have 3 times the needed staff because they simply do not care, raising their wage will not make them work or care any more or harder, all it will do is cost me more money but than i will fire half of them."

You dribble on all over the boards and then forget what you have said suggest you take a course in memory also.:jap:

[hellodolly]

You are still incorrect there was a clear mandate that the people did not want the PT. I would say 52% is a clear mandate and it would do Yingluck good to recognize that fact. If she is honest she will have a better chance of succeeding.

While he may agree with a concept that does not make it practical. In order to implement it they will have to rewrite their election promise. I know this and I would hope you do.

She won the election and she won it easily.Grow up and get used to it.

No she did not win the election her party got more seats than the other parties did and in a vote who w3ill be PM she will win. At least that is the plan handed dow3n by big brother.

You seem to have a real problem with reality. It is simple her party was elected by the minority and she will in all likely hood be the next PM.

Grow up and except it. Just what is it you hope to gain with giving false information. You have demonstrated good skills at research why is it so bad when it comes to the PT.

As to weather she will be a good one we will have to wait and see. So far with the back pedaling on election promise before she is officially the PM it does not look good.

One can hope that when the power is given to her she will see things in different light.

[kuffki]

I could call you a name but am afraid it's agaist board rules.

Your understanding of business or locals is of a 5 year old child

A 1 by 1 ice cream shop does not need 4 staff and yet some how there us still a wait. Just like 20 room hotel does not need 4 reception if staff had even half a brain or desire to perform .

From your master expertise ever wondered why in home pro or home art have more staff than customers??

Please familirise yourself with country and it's habits before trolling all over the board., preferably personal experience and not what your wife told you.

As I said it was on another thread where you claimed 21 employes and you on this thread say you can get along with one third of the employs you have 7 is one third of 21. I did not say what was needed for your business I suggested you personally could use a course in management. That was based on the facts you have given here.

Further more if you claim one thing on one thread I would suggest you use the same fact on all the different threads you post on.

I got a new pair of reading glaess last week but I do not need them to recegnize a Thai basher when I see one.

Mate, seriously come back to reality! where did i say 1/3? or all the other dribble you coming out with?Please stop imagining things or making things up.

Considering that you have problems just reading simple words black on white, i seriously doubt you are more capable of seeing anything else any better.

suggest you read your post number 33 on this thread.

Here is a excerpt from it.

"I have 3 times the needed staff because they simply do not care, raising their wage will not make them work or care any more or harder, all it will do is cost me more money but than i will fire half of them."

You dribble on all over the boards and then forget what you have said suggest you take a course in memory also.:jap:

[scorecard]

Is it possible to reproduce a few editorials which haven't been drafted by the Democrats? There's nothing wrong with being critical of the government but the stuff which gets posted here is ludicrously one-sided.

- Some examples please.

[scorecard]

Just when you think you couldn't have a worse opinion of your fellow man, along comes a thread like this. I'm pleased to say that Thaivisa posters have revealed themselves to be even more obnoxious than I could have imagined. Congratulations.

Why do you say that?

[JimGant]

Hmmmm. A thread seemingly with just two types contributing: socialists and business owners.

For the rest of us, with one maid and one gardner (as an example), the future should be interesting, as we'll not have any prices to raise, or any lower corporate taxes to cover these new, mandated wages.

The market wage up where I'm from is about 160bt/day, which, I think, is about what the minimum wage is. I pay a bit more than that, 'cause I like the workers, even 'tho their ages affect the amount of work they can accomplish. My neighbors aren't happy, however, because they believe (rightly) my wage structure has inflated things in the moo baan. Tough.

Plenty of Burmese around here, so the market wage won't be appreciably changed anytime soon by any lack of unskilled labor supply.

So what happens when the 300bt wage is implemented? Nothing. Outside large and medium businesses, it will be unenforceable. My maid will know it's either the current wage (with some expectation of future raises), or no job. Same for the gardner. And I'm sure they know that if they did quit, there would be no jobs available to them (except for less than what I was paying them). Plus, their old jobs could easily be filled by: 1. Burmese, or 2. Other maids and gardners in the area -- who also foolishly quit their jobs -- perhaps at the behest of the local red shirted Commissar....

Anyway, wages by fiat, that are far removed from the market wage, never make sense, for all the standard reasons, like inflation. And in Thailand's case, where foreign firms are still willing to establish, and provide skilled and semi-skilled jobs, this is really poor timing -- as the minimum wage will have ripple affects upward. Why would they now want to build their factories here?

Yes, a social safety net is needed -- for those who are unable to work thru no fault of their own. But not for those who can work -- at the prevailing market wage -- which, in Thailand, *is* a living wage, albeit without any bells and whistles. Thailand needs to grow and educate itself off the lower rungs -- it can't be done with a false promise and its related legislation -- which, conversely, would jeopardize the climb off those lower rungs.

Now, I don't know what will happen at Siam Cement -- will the janitor now be paid the same as the semi-skilled cement technician? Or will the technician have to now sweep up after himself?

But I'm pretty sure in my Moo Baan, "now illegal" market wages will trump any swelling unemployment line. And if there is an unemployment line, it might contain an ex-janitor from Siam Cement.

[monkfish]

I have a couple questions to those foreigners paying Thai's the minimum wage.

1. How much do you pay your staff per month?

2. How many hours do they work for that salary.

The lowest minimum salary in Thailand I believe is THB 151 per day and to my calculations based on a 6 day working week equates to THB 3624 per month !!

In Phuket I believe the minimum salary is THB 204 per day which equates to THB 4896 per month

In my opinion this is nothing but slave labour!

[scorecard]

Just when you think you couldn't have a worse opinion of your fellow man, along comes a thread like this. I'm pleased to say that Thaivisa posters have revealed themselves to be even more obnoxious than I could have imagined. Congratulations.

Some examples pls.

[scorecard]

The most sensible option in my opinion would be to raise minimum wage in proportion with inflation. ie if inflation is at 5%, raise minimum wage by 5% and not to the same level across all country but respectively for each province.

One is still left with an inadequate minimum wage. The fact remains that the current minimum wage is inadequate.]

Yes, true, the gap is enormous and urgently needs reducing, but sudden hefty jumps in minimum wage will not reduce the gap.

pt has no policy whatever on actions which would actually fix this undesireable and unhelthy gap.

It can only be fixed by two things:

- More policies to share the wealth - mostly meaning tax the wealthy and subsidize some services, meaning keeping more cash in the pockets of low income earners.

- But ultimately the gap will not be substantially and permanantly reduced until there are policies and actions which ensure better opportunities and ensure that a big % of the population can enjoy a good quality of life through their own productivity.

On another angle, the regular comments about the chinese thai rich as the whipping boy make me laugh to some extent.

The local leaders of the rural poor (Some 100% Thai and some are Thai-Chinese) could have, decades ago, demanded more intrastructure, beter schools, and policies which ultimately bring more opportunites to their areas.

Except in a very small number of cases, they have done none of these things, but have themselves got rich; big luxurious houses, 3 cars including a benz and a BM or whatever in the garage, often with unruly kids who operate with impunity, and they employ the locals as servants on minimum wages.

And by the way increasing wages because of inflation is a catch 22, it contributes to more inflation

[kuffki]

Not sure about others but my minimum what I pay is 7500

I do not think I could find anyone work for 4000 and would not pay that because thats ridiculously low.

9 hour days, 6 days per week

I have a couple questions to those foreigners paying Thai's the minimum wage.

1. How much do you pay your staff per month?

2. How many hours do they work for that salary.

The lowest minimum salary in Thailand I believe is THB 151 per day and to my calculations based on a 6 day working week equates to THB 3624 per month !!

In Phuket I believe the minimum salary is THB 204 per day which equates to THB 4896 per month

In my opinion this is nothing but slave labour!

Edited July 31, 2011 by kuffki

[jayboy]

No she did not win the election her party got more seats than the other parties did...

Er that's generally called winning an election.You don't see the Labour party in the UK whining like spoiled children that David Cameron lost the election.They know the rules.

Under the rules of the game here Khun Yingluck will become Prime Minister of Thailand.It's true that in Thailand some powerful interests tend break or change these rules if they don't like the Thai peoples choice.So who knows at some point you may see developments more to your liking.In the meantime give everybody a break and stop whining please.

[Nisa]

The most sensible option in my opinion would be to raise minimum wage in proportion with inflation. ie if inflation is at 5%, raise minimum wage by 5% and not to the same level across all country but respectively for each province.

With all due respect this is not very sensible. If you were to do this then the workers would remain at the exact same position as they were. If wage increases equal inflation then the worker stays the same and does not better his standard of living. :jap: Which is the whole point of the exercise.

What needs to be done is develop a model that equates increased productivity with increased wages. When the worker increases output so that the business makes more money then he/she should share in the increased profits up to the 300 baht. Of course if an employee is very valuable then the business owner is free to establish a higher compensation. The model could freeze the level of profits that the owner keeps until the employees reach the 300 threshold. When output increases with wage increases then inflation is controlled and everybody is happy.

A model would be perfect except for one problem. ...... We are in Thailand

Not much of a capitalist are you? Minimum wage is just that .. the MINIMUM, if workers learn, get promoted or get new skills then they don't have to get the minimum anymore/ Every job is not designed to take care of a family.

[Nisa]

Min. wage needs to be raised but it would cause havoc to the economy to raise it this much in one swoop of the pen. This would be approx. doubling it in many regions in Thailand. Doing this would also cause the cost of living to rise in areas where it is significantly less than in the cities. Older folks and others on fixed incomes would be hurt.

Stop the mass migration from rural areas to Bkk=Pattaya. Having a 2 tier wage structure is wrong, persons going for the larger minimum wage finds it is swallowed up by the higher costs of living. 1 flat rate nationwide, maybe then you may get the migration back from the favoured places to the home towns, and invest in more local trades instead of relying solely on rice and sugar cane.

When you get the locals finding the costs of city life compared with the wages,THEN YOU GET PERCENTAGES going into the sex trade to get more money. Prevention better than cure. I know vast amounts of people who initially went away to Bkk for more money, and found after they had paid their dues were no better off that rural work. And so many people complain about some of them seeking seedier employment, They have choices we know but the lure of bigger money is too tempting for some.

It is not abnormal in every country to having differing pays if there is different costs of livings. It is common for large companies base pay on cost of living in a particular area. So, people doing the same job don't necessarily make the same.

[ginjag]

Min. wage needs to be raised but it would cause havoc to the economy to raise it this much in one swoop of the pen. This would be approx. doubling it in many regions in Thailand. Doing this would also cause the cost of living to rise in areas where it is significantly less than in the cities. Older folks and others on fixed incomes would be hurt.

Stop the mass migration from rural areas to Bkk=Pattaya. Having a 2 tier wage structure is wrong, persons going for the larger minimum wage finds it is swallowed up by the higher costs of living. 1 flat rate nationwide, maybe then you may get the migration back from the favoured places to the home towns, and invest in more local trades instead of relying solely on rice and sugar cane.

When you get the locals finding the costs of city life compared with the wages,THEN YOU GET PERCENTAGES going into the sex trade to get more money. Prevention better than cure. I know vast amounts of people who initially went away to Bkk for more money, and found after they had paid their dues were no better off that rural work. And so many people complain about some of them seeking seedier employment, They have choices we know but the lure of bigger money is too tempting for some.

It is not abnormal in every country to having differing pays if there is different costs of livings. It is common for large companies base pay on cost of living in a particular area. So, people doing the same job don't necessarily make the same.

Agreed Nisa, but it will be interesting if the min-wage is 300 bht (9000) per month, there could be less working in the sex trade, as now with the tourism hitting rock bottom not many boys and girls are earning that a month.

If you ask around there are not many bar persons getting 2 customers per week 1k each=it being 8000 per month and they have to pay for a room, hence it's cheaper on the farm at home with no room to pay.

[kuffki]

Min. wage needs to be raised but it would cause havoc to the economy to raise it this much in one swoop of the pen. This would be approx. doubling it in many regions in Thailand. Doing this would also cause the cost of living to rise in areas where it is significantly less than in the cities. Older folks and others on fixed incomes would be hurt.

Stop the mass migration from rural areas to Bkk=Pattaya. Having a 2 tier wage structure is wrong, persons going for the larger minimum wage finds it is swallowed up by the higher costs of living. 1 flat rate nationwide, maybe then you may get the migration back from the favoured places to the home towns, and invest in more local trades instead of relying solely on rice and sugar cane.

When you get the locals finding the costs of city life compared with the wages,THEN YOU GET PERCENTAGES going into the sex trade to get more money. Prevention better than cure. I know vast amounts of people who initially went away to Bkk for more money, and found after they had paid their dues were no better off that rural work. And so many people complain about some of them seeking seedier employment, They have choices we know but the lure of bigger money is too tempting for some.

It is not abnormal in every country to having differing pays if there is different costs of livings. It is common for large companies base pay on cost of living in a particular area. So, people doing the same job don't necessarily make the same.

Agreed Nisa, but it will be interesting if the min-wage is 300 bht (9000) per month, there could be less working in the sex trade, as now with the tourism hitting rock bottom not many boys and girls are earning that a month.

If you ask around there are not many bar persons getting 2 customers per week 1k each=it being 8000 per month and they have to pay for a room, hence it's cheaper on the farm at home with no room to pay.

You may find that bar girls or boys are not interested in a job no matter what it paid.

They are not interested in getting up early or having any kind of responsibility.

On the contrarily to what many here believe they do not "take care" of the family and most money earned is wasted on clothing and toys.

Family be lucky to get 5000 baht every month, usually its more like 2000-3000. I am talking in general terms of course and there are exceptions.

[473geo]

Both the Democrats and PTP have highlighted the need for action on the minimum wage, obviously the labour representatives support the 300 baht minimum wage, the academics who look to business and government for funding tread the middle line but appear to accept there should be a scientific researched practical solution...........now if business was looking for a win win situation they would be fully supporting this direction of thought......

So where are they......and why the reluctance?

Edited July 31, 2011 by 473geo

[metisdead]

A post with messed up quote tags has been removed. Once the maximum number of nested quotes has been reached, be careful in deleting irrelevant posts so that the relevant quote tags remain intact, otherwise it's difficult to determine who said what.

[jdinasia]

The issue around a nation-wide minimum wage being a poor idea is simple. Why would ANY company employing more than just a few people locate upcountry if they have to pay the same rate for labor, and then pay to transport both materials and finished product? Companies currently located upcountry may find it much cheaper to relocate to the seaboard or the industrial zones around BKK to save on transportation costs.

It would be different if the infrastructure (particularly cargo rail lines) were in place already but the nation-wide minimum wage is likely to have some severe issues for labor upcountry.

[TAWP]

What of course I meant to say is that the PTP won a very clear election victory and as such has a mandate from the Thai people.

As to the minimum wage as I have pointed out already the financial brains behind the Democrat government, Khun Korn, is entirely in agreement with the concept.

What you miss is that almost no-one here voted (...) for the Democrats either - and only some on the forum could be labeled supporters.

I would venture that most wouldn't support either in any open debate if there was more, better, options.

As such we know that many bad ideas will come from both sides - and sometimes from both.

This is one of the latter.

[473geo]

The issue around a nation-wide minimum wage being a poor idea is simple. Why would ANY company employing more than just a few people locate upcountry if they have to pay the same rate for labor, and then pay to transport both materials and finished product? Companies currently located upcountry may find it much cheaper to relocate to the seaboard or the industrial zones around BKK to save on transportation costs.

It would be different if the infrastructure (particularly cargo rail lines) were in place already but the nation-wide minimum wage is likely to have some severe issues for labor upcountry.

Perhaps the up country companies have invested in cost effective purpose built facilities which would be expensive to relocate to leasehold properties on the seaboard or industrial zones?

Perhaps if we had a scientific study we would find that the upper salary levels of the companies located on the seaboard and industrial zones may just make the absolute cost of relocation prohibative?

[TAWP]

Our company stuck the pay up for the few relevant staff already - before the election infact as it was obvious it was coming and keeping staff morale high was important. It seems they did the right thing to me and it wont be passed on to customers as it just knocks a small amount off of profit.

Edited to add: our company isnt a slave labour intensive one but relies mostly on highly paid professionals and makes a reasonable but not inflated profit every year

Good for you.

But if costs go up, the minimum wage earners gets 50% more, the office/secretary/HR kind gets 25% more (to cover increase in living costs, maintain some of the distance to the lower pay-rung etc) and technical staff get 10% - ontop of the normal yearly increase, it will affect businesses.

[TAWP]

I have a couple questions to those foreigners paying Thai's the minimum wage.

1. How much do you pay your staff per month?

2. How many hours do they work for that salary.

The lowest minimum salary in Thailand I believe is THB 151 per day and to my calculations based on a 6 day working week equates to THB 3624 per month !!

In Phuket I believe the minimum salary is THB 204 per day which equates to THB 4896 per month

In my opinion this is nothing but slave labour!

We pay some 10 times more than that to a lot of the staff - but I have no illusions that people will not expect a pay-raise even in our higher rung of salaries.

And if food-prices where to increase with 10% etc...I am going to need a pay-raise to cover that too...

[hellodolly]

No she did not win the election her party got more seats than the other parties did...

Er that's generally called winning an election.You don't see the Labour party in the UK whining like spoiled children that David Cameron lost the election.They know the rules.

Under the rules of the game here Khun Yingluck will become Prime Minister of Thailand.It's true that in Thailand some powerful interests tend break or change these rules if they don't like the Thai peoples choice.So who knows at some point you may see developments more to your liking.In the meantime give everybody a break and stop whining please.

If you have some thing to say say it. Try to not take things out of context to suit your personal opinion. You don't really mean quit whining you mean quit calling me on my nonsense.

[metisdead]

A post and a reply discussing some of the specifics of prostitution have been removed.

18) Not to discuss the specifics of prostitution.

Thailand has a visible sex industry, and acknowledgment of that fact is not forbidden. However ThaiVisa is not the place to seek or give information on this topic, regardless of your sexual habits, preferences or orientation.

[473geo]

I have a couple questions to those foreigners paying Thai's the minimum wage.

1. How much do you pay your staff per month?

2. How many hours do they work for that salary.

The lowest minimum salary in Thailand I believe is THB 151 per day and to my calculations based on a 6 day working week equates to THB 3624 per month !!

In Phuket I believe the minimum salary is THB 204 per day which equates to THB 4896 per month

In my opinion this is nothing but slave labour!

We pay some 10 times more than that to a lot of the staff - but I have no illusions that people will not expect a pay-raise even in our higher rung of salaries.

And if food-prices where to increase with 10% etc...I am going to need a pay-raise to cover that too...

Try it.....if one of your highly paid staff chooses to depart then you pay 20 of your under the minimum wage staff the 300 minimum......