Outcome Of Probe On Chiang Mai Tourist And Thai Guide Deaths‏

[webfact]

Outcome Of Probe On Chiang Mai tourist and Thai guide deaths‏‏

The investigation into the deaths of five tourists and one Thai guide in Chiang Mai in January and February of this year is now complete. Please find attached a copy of Update 5 setting out the findings of the probe.

Also attached are other documents – timeline of events, FAQ, roles and responsibilities of partners – to give you a complete picture of all that has been done during the course of the inquiry.

You will also find all of these documents on the website of the Department of Disease Control at www.ddc.moph.go.th

PDF attachments

FAQ for Update5_16 Aug 11.pdf

Roles and Reponsibilities.16 Aug 11.pdf

timeline.16 Aug 11.pdf

update 5 final 16 aug 11.pdf

-- 2011-08-16

[x5david]

So the outcome is...they still don't know conclusively what killed all these people...

[Chiangmai Cheers]

Another whitewash. Surprise. Surprise

[Maejo Man]

Did anyone expect any sort of definitive answer?

[webfact]

Probe finds pesticide link to Thai tourist deaths

BANGKOK, August 16, 2011 (AFP) - Thai authorities said on Tuesday four foreign tourists and a local tour guide who died mysteriously in the northern city of Chiang Mai may have been poisoned by unknown toxic chemicals or pesticides.

In a report into the deaths of six people and illnesses of three others earlier this year, Thailand's Department of Disease Control said three women, from New Zealand, the US and Thailand, "likely died of exposure to pesticides".

Authorities said they could not exclude the possibility that an elderly British couple, found dead at the same hotel as two of the other victims, had also been poisoned, although investigators could not establish a direct link.

The report said the exact agents involved or where they came from could not be identified, but listed rodenticide, used in pest control, and chemicals such as those found in pesticides as possible causes.

The spate of deaths in January and February -- including four in a single hotel -- sparked safety concerns and officials said they are now acting to "reduce the risks of chemical and pesticide exposure to future visitors".

"As difficult as it may be to accept, ultimately, the precise causes for the deaths and illnesses cannot be definitively identified or confirmed," the report said, following a five-month investigation by various Thai ministries with the help of the World Health Organization.

It said that full laboratory screening for toxins was not possible due to inadequate samples, because the need for such testing was "not foreseen at the time of death".

The first incident linked to likely pesticide poisoning occurred on January 11, when a 33-year-old American woman died after falling ill while staying at an unnamed hotel. Her 29-year-old Canadian friend was also hospitalised but recovered.

On February 3, a 47-year-old Thai tour guide was found dead in her room at another Chiang Mai hotel, identified previously as the Downtown Inn.

Three New Zealand women, aged 23, staying in the adjacent room were also taken ill. They were hospitalised on February 4 and one of the women died two days later after heart problems.

On February 19 a British man, 78, and woman, 74, were found dead in their room in the same hotel, the report said.

Investigations into the death of a 25-year-old French woman in a separate hotel in January found her death was unrelated to the others and ruled out chemical poisoning.

Authorities said Tuesday they were implementing steps to prevent future exposure to toxic chemicals, including stricter measures for their use in hotels and markets.

Chiang Mai health authorities told AFP that the Downtown Inn remains open, but said visitor numbers had fallen dramatically.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-08-16

[ginjag]

Did anyone expect any sort of definitive answer?

I find this remark disturbing, and wonder why it wasn't important to act.?????

It said that full laboratory screening for toxins was not possible due to inadequate samples, because the need for such testing was "not foreseen at the time of death".

Death------Deaths ???? so the second one was not foreseen or the third or the forth or the fifth, this smells a bit dodgy.....anyone think the same ????? suspect not.

[Atmos]

From NZ Herald today:

Authorities need to act on Thai deaths report - father

3:46 PM Tuesday Aug 16, 2011

The father of a New Zealand woman who died in Thailand in February says he hopes Thai authorities will act on the recommendations of a report into her death.

Ms Carter's father, Richard Carter, had been critical at an initial lack of investigation, and in particular the hotel's statement that the deaths of Ms Carter and the Thai woman were coincidence, but he said today he was pleased to see the recommendations made. "That is positive for travellers to Thailand, and I would certainly like to see all those suggested remedies put into place,'' he said.

Mr Carter said the fact a number of medical experts from Thailand and outside were involved showed it had been taken seriously.

"They certainly haven't done anything that's in any way likely to make anyone accountable, i.e. not very thorough investigation around the hotel or into the pesticide company, but they've certainly taken it very seriously in the knowledge that their tourism would drop off if they don't.''

Mr Carter, from the southeast Auckland suburb of Howick, said he was pleased the investigation had produced something positive, but his daughter's death was still difficult to deal with. "This is obviously rekindling the real issue a bit, so while we're pleased for this to be over, we're still obviously very saddened by the whole event.''

read more

[Misterwhisper]

Typical.

The need for taking samples might not have been seen as necessary at the time of the first death. But when the second death occurred at the same hotel, such sample-taking became imminently important. And certainly so when the elderly British couple also died on the very same premises.

Instead the public once again were played for months on end, only to now be confronted with the so-called 'outcome' that - in plain words - the causes of all those deaths could not be conclusively established any longer because of the foot-dragging that had been going on.

Please also recall how vehemently Chiang Mai police initially INSISTED that the NZ women had eaten "poisonous seaweed" from a streetside stall without EVER informing the public 1) where that stall was, 2) what action had been taken to prevent the stall operators from further poisoning their customers and 3) whether other stalls in the vicinity also might be dishing up contaminated seaweed.

Please also remember how even after the fourth or fifth death within such an incredibly short period of time, the entire scenario was still attributed to "pure coincidence", even by Chiang Mai's chief of police.

Sweeping things under the carpet in an attempt of saving face - and shooting yourself in the foot in the process. Thais are masters at that.

[FOODLOVER]

So no one is going to be held accountable for these deaths? WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!

[Latindancer]

So they're saying it was an "unknown" pesticide ??

I lived in Chiang Mai for 6 months in 1998 and read in a local paper then about a poor woman who had been employed working on a vegetable farm somewhere in the North, and who had brought home some veggies.

She fed some to her 8 year old daughter who then died. I felt very sad about this, as the woman was quite distraught.

The stupid part was that her employer had been using a pesticide on vegetables, that was only meant to be used on FLOWERS...never on vegetables !

In the same article they also showed actual photos of people elsewhere applying pesticide to crops with their bare hands.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Latindancer

[webfact]

Father of New Zealand victim advises against travel to Thailand

Wellington - The father of a young New Zealand woman who died from toxic chemical poisoning in a Thailand hotel welcomed Tuesday moves to tighten rules on spraying pesticides in tourist areas but said he would not advise others to travel there.

"Unless you are an intrepid traveller seeking a bit of adventure steer clear of the whole place altogether," Richard Carter, of Auckland, told Radio New Zealand. "I won't be going there.

"But having said that, they are making an effort to make it safer and that's a positive step."

Carter's daughter Sarah, 23, died in February after falling ill while staying at a hotel in Chiang Mai. Four other tourists and a local guide died in similar circumstances about the same time.

The Thai Department of Disease Control released a report into the deaths Tuesday saying they were likely to have been exposed to some toxic chemical, pesticides or gas but the exact cause could not be identified

-- The Nation 2011-08-16

[Orac]

"The Thai Department of Disease Control released a report into the deaths Tuesday saying they were likely to have been exposed to some toxic chemical, pesticides or gas but the exact cause could not be identified"

It is noticeable that only foreigners have been reported as effected by this toxin whatever it is. Unless Thais are immune to its effects or a by some huge fluke none came into contact with it then I would have expected there would be quite a few cases amongst locals.

[Pib]

This report lived up to Thai standards--no definite answers or results.

[Soutpeel]

"The Thai Department of Disease Control released a report into the deaths Tuesday saying they were likely to have been exposed to some toxic chemical, pesticides or gas but the exact cause could not be identified"

It is noticeable that only foreigners have been reported as effected by this toxin whatever it is. Unless Thais are immune to its effects or a by some huge fluke none came into contact with it then I would have expected there would be quite a few cases amongst locals.

"On February 3, a 47-year-old Thai tour guide was found dead in her room at another Chiang Mai hotel"......

Seeing as its pretty obvious they may have been a cover up one could assume any further Thai nationals dying may have gone unreported

[ChoakMyDee]

I seem to recall reading on another thread that they suspected the pesticide for killing bed bugs; perhaps the person who sprayed used too much and poisoned the guests. Of course the official finding will be the white-washed version as they wouldn't want the hotel to look bad or be liable so they are not going to admit to any wrong doing.

[prvtdetdave]

Probably the same pesticide the christian missionaries use to spray cabbages up north that kill elephants.

[Puccini]

...It is noticeable that only foreigners have been reported as effected by this toxin whatever it is...

Of what nationality was the tour guide?

BANGKOK, August 16, 2011 (AFP) - Thai authorities said on Tuesday four foreign tourists and a local tour guide who died mysteriously in the northern city of Chiang Mai may have been poisoned by unknown toxic chemicals or pesticides.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Puccini

[Soutpeel]

Probably the same pesticide the christian missionaries use to spray cabbages up north that kill elephants.

Religious conspiracy theroy time yipeee.....Shall I put my tin foil hat on now.....

[Card]

I find it very strange how they can conclude that toxins were involved when:

1. No significant residues were found in the bodies (chemical analysis).

2. No residues of any significance were found in the hotels, or apparently used in the hotels involved.

3. No obvious signs of toxin damage or symptoms were found on the bodies (morphological or structural damage).

Of course, there were complications in collecting all this evidence but without at least one of these lines of evidence, they cannot possibly conclude that toxins were involved.

I think the Thai authorities felt they just had to sound like they had pinpointed a cause to avoid an embarrassing lack of conclusion. It sounds better to conclude that 'poisoning was probably involved' even without a shred of suitable evidence, than 'we don't know'. It's just a face-saving conclusion.

[KeyserSoze01]

Probably the same pesticide the christian missionaries use to spray cabbages up north that kill elephants.

Religious conspiracy theroy time yipeee.....Shall I put my tin foil hat on now.....

You need a work permit for that.

[lovetotravel]

I find it very strange how they can conclude that toxins were involved when:

1. No significant residues were found in the bodies (chemical analysis).

2. No residues of any significance were found in the hotels, or apparently used in the hotels involved.

3. No obvious signs of toxin damage or symptoms were found on the bodies (morphological or structural damage).

Of course, there were complications in collecting all this evidence but without at least one of these lines of evidence, they cannot possibly conclude that toxins were involved.

I think the Thai authorities felt they just had to sound like they had pinpointed a cause to avoid an embarrassing lack of conclusion. It sounds better to conclude that 'poisoning was probably involved' even without a shred of suitable evidence, than 'we don't know'. It's just a face-saving conclusion.

Weren't there witnesses who said the hotel wiped everything down immediately???? Cleaned all the rooms and ACs?

[jfchandler]

I'd suggest the main result here is...the findings are sufficiently vague and non-specific that NO ONE will ever be held or found responsible for these various deaths, including the cluster that occurred at the one particular Chiang Mai Hotel owned by a very prominent local political family and that was never closed for one day throughout this entire process.

With these kinds of findings, even getting a civil judgment in the U.S. courts would be unlikely, I'd say. So you can forget it in terms of anything civil in the Thai court system... Not with this kind of report as the evidence at hand.

Something non-natural clearly caused the deaths of these people, But apparently, we'll never know who actually did it and who was responsible for it, since the authorities can't even say what specific chemical agent was responsible, though they do seem to be able to rule out the bed bug killing chemical that was the subject of the New Zealand TV report.

As others have pointed out above, I do hope everyone does remember the prior, patently silly claims by local authorities in Chiang Mai that the deaths were mere coincidence or from bad seaweed or food poisoning or whatever other un-supported theories they threw at the wall during all the ensuing months. That pretty much tells you just how much you can believe when those people go spouting off their mouths.

[nikster]

TIT. The most amazing aspect is that the hotel in question remains open. Should have been shut down at the second death, at the very least.

[PETDCAT]

Exactly who owns this hotel? Why is never mentioned who the owner is? Is it libelous to just identify the owners of the hotel when reporting a story like this?

[saroq]

Probably the same pesticide the christian missionaries use to spray cabbages up north that kill elephants.

Religious conspiracy theroy time yipeee.....Shall I put my tin foil hat on now.....

Will someone please spray the Christian missionaries.

Was the rumor that the hotel was owned by a relative of a prominent Thai politician confirmed?

How many deaths needed to occur before the Thai authorities deemed it necessary to take samples to determine the cause of death?

I don't have much confidence that any changes that the Thai authorities say they have made will actually happen or be sustained into the future.

[Card]

I find it very strange how they can conclude that toxins were involved when:

1. No significant residues were found in the bodies (chemical analysis).

2. No residues of any significance were found in the hotels, or apparently used in the hotels involved.

3. No obvious signs of toxin damage or symptoms were found on the bodies (morphological or structural damage).

Of course, there were complications in collecting all this evidence but without at least one of these lines of evidence, they cannot possibly conclude that toxins were involved.

I think the Thai authorities felt they just had to sound like they had pinpointed a cause to avoid an embarrassing lack of conclusion. It sounds better to conclude that 'poisoning was probably involved' even without a shred of suitable evidence, than 'we don't know'. It's just a face-saving conclusion.

Weren't there witnesses who said the hotel wiped everything down immediately???? Cleaned all the rooms and ACs?

So what point are u trying to make? Cleaning the rooms doesn't provide any positive evidence that there were toxins there that killed the guests in the first place.

Also the word 'toxins' could mean anything from pesticides used in the hotel (which most people assume the Thai authorities are referring to), to poisons in food and drink, swimming pool, tap water, air conditioners or almost anywhere that were common to the deceased.

I still find it strange that the Thai authorities have not said why they think toxins were involved and surprised why the Western media and the relatives are not asking the same question. I guess they think it is the only possible explanation or the only believable one, based on logic rather than evidence.

[saroq]

A quick check reveals that only one review on www.tripadvisor.com mentions anything about these deaths and then all that is said is to do a Google search to find out about the hotel. Great to see tripadvisor looking out for the traveling public isn't it.

[jackr]

Although not so, this kind of thing really brings out the banana republic in Thailand. It's high time it grew a pair.

[Atmos]

Father of New Zealand victim advises against travel to Thailand

Wellington - The father of a young New Zealand woman who died from toxic chemical poisoning in a Thailand hotel welcomed Tuesday moves to tighten rules on spraying pesticides in tourist areas but said he would not advise others to travel there.

"Unless you are an intrepid traveller seeking a bit of adventure steer clear of the whole place altogether," Richard Carter, of Auckland, told Radio New Zealand. "I won't be going there.

I am bored with this man's bleatings against the country, part of his grief I suppose, but his website Thai Tragedies really is pathetic.

Accept the deaths were tragic; as are all deaths, road accidents etc that impact upon families/friends; his bitter 'steer clear of the whole place altogether' -won't impact on the millions of tourists each year.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Atmos

[jackr]

A quick check reveals that only one review on www.tripadvisor.com mentions anything about these deaths and then all that is said is to do a Google search to find out about the hotel. Great to see tripadvisor looking out for the traveling public isn't it.

Naff site, user-generated content and easily manipulated. Better off checking gov advisory (genuine) sites.