Farang Becoming Monks

[zzaa09]

There have been a couple of these types have well secured fame and notoriety over the years. Extraordinarily rare as it is.

For those odd sorts that have sought the old Thai Theravada school, I find it personally quite awkward and embarrassed for them.

Throughout my course, I have witnessed a number of Western residences that find it their place to stumble over the tradition, only to leave because they just don't get it - even admitting so.

What is this? A terribly disjointed fashion?

I'm sure some of you older-hands have experienced this oddity over your years and would love to hear what you have to share.

[Forethat]

I know one farang who did it as a gesture of respect for his in-laws who were old fashioned in every aspect and got a bit upset when they realised their daughter was marrying a farang. The fathers trust could never be gained and in an attempt to fix that small relational flaw he became a monk for four weeks.

It worked, I should add.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I'm struggling to make sense of the original post, which seems to have been co-authored by Mr. Chang...

But perhaps I can summarize it as "Farangs practicing Buddhism, even becoming monks are weird and awkward."

Interesting point of view. Also awkward, as if Farangs as a group would inherently be less inclined to practice Buddhism, but still interesting.

I lived in a temple for a while, though didn't actually get ordained in any way. Still I learned enough doing that to understand why people do it; it's the absolute perfect break of all the entrapments of regular life. It's liberating in a sense, as you leave any thoughts about a career, money, women, booze, food-as-a-hobby, fashion, gadgetry and so on at the door.

Note that you don't need to do this forever, but even doing it for any amount of time can be quite liberating.

ADDITION: I will now await posts slamming Thais, Thai temples and monks because not all monks and all temples follow Buddhism as close as some would like, along with some stories of monks misbehaving, etc. Overall though I think you can pick a temple that are a good fit for what you're looking for. Some forest temples for example.

Edited September 1, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Geekfreaklover]

English can be a difficult, clunky language when you are trying too hard, try to go easy with it, Za.

The same can be said with the study of what Gutama Buddha spoke all those years ago.

What he said was very simple:

What will be will be and will always be in the present moment.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Geekfreaklover

[endure]

ADDITION: I will now await posts slamming Thais, Thai temples and monks because not all monks and all temples follow Buddhism as close as some would like, along with some stories of monks misbehaving, etc. Overall though I think you can pick a temple that are a good fit for what you're looking for. Some forest temples for example.

You forgot the posts complaining about monks smoking even though it isn't forbidden in Buddhism.

[zzaa09]

English can be a difficult, clunky language when you are trying too hard, try to go easy with it, Za.

The same can be said with the study of what Gutama Buddha spoke all those years ago.

What he said was very simple:

What will be will be and will always be in the present moment.

You'll be forgiving me, I trust.

English isn't my first.

[surayu]

Do foreigner monks have to pay for a "religious visa" or something like that? i have seen many at the immigration in Laksi (Bkk).

[zzaa09]

Do foreigner monks have to pay for a "religious visa" or something like that? i have seen many at the immigration in Laksi (Bkk).

Ed Visa?

[mca]

English can be a difficult, clunky language when you are trying too hard, try to go easy with it, Za.

The same can be said with the study of what Gutama Buddha spoke all those years ago.

What he said was very simple:

What will be will be and will always be in the present moment.

Doris Day surely?

Anyhow. Farang monks. I don't know about them as individuals but for me personally I'd do it to ride around in a red number plate Rolls Royce Phantom with police escort.

[isanbirder]

Do foreigner monks have to pay for a "religious visa" or something like that? i have seen many at the immigration in Laksi (Bkk).

They get annual visas without much difficulty, presumably with a letter from the temple or some such guarantee. They don't have to deposit money in the bank, either.

I can't see any reason why farangs shouldn't become monks if they want to. It seems a bit weird to me, but then a lot of things people do seem weird; live and let live.

[andrewbkk]

You'll be forgiving me, I trust.

English isn't my first.

Hey ZZ -- how are you this morning?

What's your first language?

I used to know a Dutch guy who claimed to be a Buddhist.

Remember a few years back when there was that "jattucam" craze? Well, that Dutch guy had the biggest amulet of anyone at that time.

I think he was genuine in the sense that he was very forgiving. But I also think he took pleasure in being different from "normal farangs".

If it's of any interest, I too have a jattucam. It's from a temple way down south.

[Kananga]

You get Thai Christians, whats the big deal? Or is religion now subject to racial profiling?

[Kilgore Trout]

For those odd sorts that have sought the old Thai Theravada school, I find it personally quite awkward and embarrassed for them

Quite right, I feel the same way about people of Asian ancestry (notice I did not use a racially charged term) who convert to christianity and become pastors or priests.

Actually I don't feel that way, just wanted to show you how obnoxious your statement is

[Kananga]

For those odd sorts that have sought the old Thai Theravada school, I find it personally quite awkward and embarrassed for them

Quite right, I feel the same way about people of Asian ancestry (notice I did not use a racially charged term) who convert to christianity and become pastors or priests.

Actually I don't feel that way, just wanted to show you how obnoxious your statement is

Backpackers chanting in the Wat at the end of Khao san road on the other hand is a completely different matter.

[andrewbkk]

For those odd sorts that have sought the old Thai Theravada school, I find it personally quite awkward and embarrassed for them

Quite right, I feel the same way about people of Asian ancestry (notice I did not use a racially charged term) who convert to christianity and become pastors or priests.

Actually I don't feel that way, just wanted to show you how obnoxious your statement is

That's actually quite an interesting comment.

My son's mother was born in Baan Song-Yae. Check the link. The village (in Yasothon) hosts the largest wooden church in Thailand. Everyone in the village is Catholic.

But ....... are they really Christians? I don't think so.

Most notably, they all seem to believe the Buddhist concept of birth and re-birth. They are searching for Nirvana.

Secondly -- although they are very friendly -- they all have the selfish ME ME ME attitude that is typical of those who practice Theravada Buddhism.

I have also met many Thai people who have converted to Christianity. In my experience, most of these these people are just frauds. Many convert purely in order to benefit from free English lessons that are given by Mormons or Jehovas Witnesses.

I recently dated a Thai girl who had converted to Christianity. I asked her if she was Protestant or Catholic. She looked at me blankly and said "I'm a Christian".

I took her to Assumption Cathedral (Chareon Krung), and she said "who manages this place"? She had never read the Bible.

I agree that many Priests and Pastors from the Phillipines are genuine. But I would encourage anyone to be wary of Thais who call themselves Christians.

Edited September 2, 2011 by sbk
inflammatory post deleted

[Semper]

I'm struggling to make sense of the original post, which seems to have been co-authored by Mr. Chang...

But perhaps I can summarize it as "Farangs practicing Buddhism, even becoming monks are weird and awkward."

Interesting point of view. Also awkward, as if Farangs as a group would inherently be less inclined to practice Buddhism, but still interesting.

I lived in a temple for a while, though didn't actually get ordained in any way. Still I learned enough doing that to understand why people do it; it's the absolute perfect break of all the entrapments of regular life. It's liberating in a sense, as you leave any thoughts about a career, money, women, booze, food-as-a-hobby, fashion, gadgetry and so on at the door.

Note that you don't need to do this forever, but even doing it for any amount of time can be quite liberating.

ADDITION: I will now await posts slamming Thais, Thai temples and monks because not all monks and all temples follow Buddhism as close as some would like, along with some stories of monks misbehaving, etc. Overall though I think you can pick a temple that are a good fit for what you're looking for. Some forest temples for example.

all the entrapments of regular life

Would this include hanging around shopping malls, looking for the latest iPhone or a new laptop?

[Latindancer]

Some Western people who profess to be Buddhist may well be following the latest fashion. Many others however are genuine, and do so as a response to having read Buddhist teachings. They seem different from Asian Buddhists as they concentrate more on the teachings rather than the outer trappings and ritual which are passed down in families here.

I encourage everyone reading this to explore the Buddhist sub-forum on Thaivisa. You may learn a thing or two.You also might like to Google what Albert Einstein said about Buddhism.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Latindancer

[7by7]

I recently dated a Thai girl who had converted to Christianity. I asked her if she was Protestant or Catholic. She looked at me blankly and said "I'm a Christian".

The closest I'd come to claiming to be a Christian is calling myself a lapsed Catholic. However I work with a girl in the UK who does not define her faith as Protestant or Catholic but simply as Christian. Many do.

There are also many people all over the world who call themselves Christian but never go to any form of church or read the Bible. As long as they don't use the label hypocritically, who are we to criticise?

BTW, there are many branches of Protestantism and you also left out other branches of Christianity: Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Coptic, etc, etc. Pedantry moment over.

[7by7]

Last week-end my wife and I visited, for the first time, the Amaravati monastery near Hemel Hempstead (England), founded by Ajahn Sumedho, born Robert Jackman in Seattle, a pupil of Ajahn Chah.

Whilst there we talked for about 20 minutes with the current abbot, Ajahn Amaro, born Jeremy Horner in Kent, a very kind, friendly and obviously spiritual man.

This may seem a very short acquaintance on which to make a judgment, but from that experience, and subsequent reading about both his life and that of Ajahn Sumedho, I would say that yes: it is certainly possible for Farang to genuinely become Buddhist monks.

I follow no religion, but I feel confident that, for example, the Buddha, Jesus and Mohammad did not care about the race of those who follow their teachings. Even though those of the latter two (and former?) have been distorted and perverted by some throughout history up to and including the present day.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I'm struggling to make sense of the original post, which seems to have been co-authored by Mr. Chang...

But perhaps I can summarize it as "Farangs practicing Buddhism, even becoming monks are weird and awkward."

Interesting point of view. Also awkward, as if Farangs as a group would inherently be less inclined to practice Buddhism, but still interesting.

I lived in a temple for a while, though didn't actually get ordained in any way. Still I learned enough doing that to understand why people do it; it's the absolute perfect break of all the entrapments of regular life. It's liberating in a sense, as you leave any thoughts about a career, money, women, booze, food-as-a-hobby, fashion, gadgetry and so on at the door.

Note that you don't need to do this forever, but even doing it for any amount of time can be quite liberating.

ADDITION: I will now await posts slamming Thais, Thai temples and monks because not all monks and all temples follow Buddhism as close as some would like, along with some stories of monks misbehaving, etc. Overall though I think you can pick a temple that are a good fit for what you're looking for. Some forest temples for example.

all the entrapments of regular life

Would this include hanging around shopping malls, looking for the latest iPhone or a new laptop?

Not necessarily; computers and communication devices are mist definitely not off limits, especially not when used for educational or other meaningful purposes.

But having lived at a temple I also know how it is, especially for younger aporentices: they don't stop being kids overnight.

Also when giving alms in the morning you can make someone's day by starting with the wholesome stuff for the head monk who's usually first, but then save the strawberry Pocky sticks for the kids at the back. with a straight face of course.

[ludditeman]

I recently dated a Thai girl who had converted to Christianity. I asked her if she was Protestant or Catholic. She looked at me blankly and said "I'm a Christian".

The closest I'd come to claiming to be a Christian is calling myself a lapsed Catholic. However I work with a girl in the UK who does not define her faith as Protestant or Catholic but simply as Christian. Many do.

Catholic belief is, you can only achieve salvation through the church and it's ministers, if you do not go to church you cannot be a Catholic.

[omyaitattoo]

hi,

I know a lot of foreigners who became monk.. for a year or even for longer.

everyone has his own reason to ordain but I understand many tourist/westerners find this strange, a white guy in orange robes in thailand, and I did too when I first came to bkk.

80% of the the temples (maybe even more) dont reflect what was really meant in the old teachings and looking around I thinks there's more folk tradition & animism in temples than old style buddhist style teaching.

this, mixed with lots of 'career' monks for the $, lazy monks for zzzzz zzz and even monks on the run for the police and selling dope really makes it strange a foreigner wants a bit of that but...

after years and years in thailand and reading some books I did a few forest temple retreats and got into buddhism a bit and have been to a few temples (big one in ubon, the acharn cha temple and suan mokh in suratthani)

and the temples most foreigners ordained were not alike the temples you usually see.. more hardcore with rules, practicing and how to spend your time with reflection on yourself and life in general..

I can say that living at some of these temples isnt the easy life you might think of... but yeah, seein that fat monk buying lottery tickets (prob. with donation money) today made me think too...

temples really differ, the forest temples are sometimes amazing and I can understand why someone would make a choice to go for a few years of full introspection..

a lot of men started to read the handbook by buddhadasa bikkuh 'a handbook for mankind' and started to see some simple facts before unseen...

it's worth to read www.suanmokkh.org/archive/pdf/handbook.pdf it's very down to earth and easy to read..

dave

[7by7]

I recently dated a Thai girl who had converted to Christianity. I asked her if she was Protestant or Catholic. She looked at me blankly and said "I'm a Christian".

The closest I'd come to claiming to be a Christian is calling myself a lapsed Catholic. However I work with a girl in the UK who does not define her faith as Protestant or Catholic but simply as Christian. Many do.

Catholic belief is, you can only achieve salvation through the church and it's ministers, if you do not go to church you cannot be a Catholic.

Hence my use of the word lapsed.

Though with Catholicism there is always the possibility of salvation through a deathbed confession!

[andrewbkk]

I recently dated a Thai girl who had converted to Christianity. I asked her if she was Protestant or Catholic. She looked at me blankly and said "I'm a Christian".

The closest I'd come to claiming to be a Christian is calling myself a lapsed Catholic. However I work with a girl in the UK who does not define her faith as Protestant or Catholic but simply as Christian. Many do.

Catholic belief is, you can only achieve salvation through the church and it's ministers, if you do not go to church you cannot be a Catholic.

Hence my use of the word lapsed.

Though with Catholicism there is always the possibility of salvation through a deathbed confession!

Guys -- the point I was trying to make is that many people here in Thailand who convert to Christianity are not genuine.

In my experience, they convert because it's a bit "fashionable" and because they can get free English lessons from the Mormons or Jehovas Witnesses who "convert" them.

As I wrote before, I met a girl (a "Christian") on an online dating site. I took her to Assumption Cathedral and St Joseph's Church in Soi Convent.

But it really did sadden me a lot when she said "who manages this place". Even worse was when she picked up the Bible and said "I want to read it". It was so fake.

I later found out that she was completey dishonest. I guess I will never know the truth, but it's clear that she was either a "mia moi" or a girl who had connections with criminal organizations. I emailed her and encouraged her to read Psalm 1. I also encouraged her to go back to the Cathedral in order to re-think her life.

[rgs2001uk]

Guys -- the point I was trying to make is that many people here in Thailand who convert to Christianity are not genuine.

In my experience, they convert because it's a bit "fashionable" and because they can get free English lessons from the Mormons or Jehovas Witnesses who "convert" them.

As I wrote before, I met a girl (a "Christian") on an online dating site. I took her to Assumption Cathedral and St Joseph's Church in Soi Convent.

But it really did sadden me a lot when she said "who manages this place". Even worse was when she picked up the Bible and said "I want to read it". It was so fake.

I later found out that she was completey dishonest. I guess I will never know the truth, but it's clear that she was either a "mia moi" or a girl who had connections with criminal organizations. I emailed her and encouraged her to read Psalm 1. I also encouraged her to go back to the Cathedral in order to re-think her life.

The "who manages this place" question shows the girl may well be more astute than you credit her.

[zzaa09]

You'll be forgiving me, I trust.

English isn't my first.

Hey ZZ -- how are you this morning?

What's your first language?

I used to know a Dutch guy who claimed to be a Buddhist.

Remember a few years back when there was that "jattucam" craze? Well, that Dutch guy had the biggest amulet of anyone at that time.

I think he was genuine in the sense that he was very forgiving. But I also think he took pleasure in being different from "normal farangs".

If it's of any interest, I too have a jattucam. It's from a temple way down south.

Yes, normal Farang.

[surayu]

Would this include hanging around shopping malls, looking for the latest iPhone or a new laptop?

What about opening a new thread to solve this case?

We could name it "Monks becoming Farangs" ....

[Semper]

Would this include hanging around shopping malls, looking for the latest iPhone or a new laptop?

What about opening a new thread to solve this case?

We could name it "Monks becoming Farangs" ....

Don't you think it's been on my mind for a long time? However, I'll bet you 10-1 that it would be closed.

[bina]

first of all there are thais who are hard core 'real' christians....

i personaly know a finnish woman here in israel who is like a mother theresa for thai labourers, visits in hospitals, sorts out various and sundry visa/crime/money/depression/divorce/separation anxieties/ whatever problems thai laoburers run in to here and the problems are vast and the workers are alone here w/o language skills or advocacy groups since the consulate doesnt/cannot handle more then buerocratic problems/visa snafus. she was in thailand for 10 yrs as a missionary teacher in the north and issaan. speaks fluently, knows the culture, and knows people. there are many groups of thais that are christians, although many do not give up the animistic rituals either, 'cause ya'never know'...

a few years ago a large group of thais came to visit our group of laborers when i had just met my now=husband; they were primarily issaan thais, not wealthy although not dirt bannork poor either, and the church had financed percentages of the trip here. they came to my kibbutz because we are close to jerusalem and i speak thai of a sort and i was able to take them around the kibbutz. they also came ot meet the laborers of course a missionary style, however they really did mean well, video taped all the workers and it turns out they sent a video to every family that had a worker here on the kibbutz... the thais here, all budhist, met them, accepted the small gifts and the thai language bibles, very politely, everyone ate well, the group left, and the bibles went in to a closet somewhere forever. however the thai group were very nice and yes very sincere in their christianity. i dont like missionaries in general but whatever...

i have often thought to do a stint in a wat as a pre-mee chi; husband has no problems with that, even thinks it would be good for me. dont see anything strange about someone trying out a religious or way of life practice if they are sincere and stick with it. having been born jewish, living in israel, secular, budhist from about age 10... why is anything strange.? good thai friend here is thai muslem but not arab, married at one point to jewish guy, daughter is thai muslem/jewish and basically secular... step father budhist not very practicing...

recently met a french girl, a nun, who speaks fluent thai as she was in thailand for five years as a missionary... ws dying to eat som tom... she is in a convent of silent nuns half an hour from our kibbutz, only one can speak on a given day.. hubby had a great time chatting with her and completely ignored her attemtps to get jesus in to the ocnversation...

bina

israel

[surayu]

she is in a convent of silent nuns half an hour from our kibbutz, only one can speak on a given day..

I hope her day's out is going to match up with that day, otherways......