Farang Becoming Monks

[glomp]

After a while being bored in the village i almost thought it would be a good idea to monk it up for a while just to pass the time. the head monk used to be a doctor before he aparently gave it up. he was a nice man that didnt take any shit, he started getting "coughs" when the more "religiously inclined" started getting "experiences" in those late night cermonies. alas he wanted no less than a month, i could never take sleeping 30 days in the woods no matter how much we could boss the young "monk students" around on the grounds of just being older.

[geriatrickid]

For those odd sorts that have sought the old Thai Theravada school, I find it personally quite awkward and embarrassed for them

Quite right, I feel the same way about people of Asian ancestry (notice I did not use a racially charged term) who convert to christianity and become pastors or priests.

Actually I don't feel that way, just wanted to show you how obnoxious your statement is

As someone not particularly fond of the "church", it pains me to point out that there were some very legitimate reasons for asians to turn to Christianity. I know that where my family lived for some generations, the Jesuits were the major educational force. The Jesuits provided access to an education to rich and poor alike and the University produced some stellar graduates that become important pillars of the community. I can understand why some people were willing to embrace Christianity as it provided an escape from the harsh feudalism that distinguished much of mainland Asia. The Jesuits in Asia, at least during the late 1800's until their ouster by their hosts were quite different than the screwed up sickos that seem to have scarred North America and Europe. I believe that there really was a desire to spread the gospel and to do it in a relatively respectful manner. (Note I use the term relative.) I also believe that the approach they used was considerably different than a great many of the foreigners that show up and want to become a monk.

My impression has been that these foreigners becoming monks are not all there to begin with and usually suffer from various psychological disorders of varying degrees. I do not doubt that there are some sincere folks that genuinely want to commit themselves to a path of enlightenment. However, I find it odd that so many of these foreigners that will criticize the west for its conspicuous consumption and lack of morality get wrapped up in wats which are money making enterprises or that prostrate themselves before golden idols. I suppose for some foreigners with their history of self abuse and addiction, becoming a monk might provide a detour off the highway of early death. Of course, no one has ever stopped to consider the fact that one can become just as good a monk in the EU or NA as in Thaialnd if one is sincere. And therein lies the reason why I am so leery. These farang monks are doing a runner: Running away from their problems. The sad reality is that those little clouds of gloom that made them run always follow them to Thailand.

[thaisomchai]

I recently dated a Thai girl who had converted to Christianity. I asked her if she was Protestant or Catholic. She looked at me blankly and said "I'm a Christian".

The closest I'd come to claiming to be a Christian is calling myself a lapsed Catholic. However I work with a girl in the UK who does not define her faith as Protestant or Catholic but simply as Christian. Many do.

Catholic belief is, you can only achieve salvation through the church and it's ministers, if you do not go to church you cannot be a Catholic.

Wrong.

Many Catholics take the Church and all her teachings on their own basis, defining for themselves what it means to be Catholic. There are several widespread and popular movements within the Church worldwide of Catholics at odds in one way or another with the Pope and the "official" Church "requirements". Attendance at Mass and other such requirements were added only after many centuries of Church history with the singular and important function of filling the Church coffers.

Her magisterum has fallen into considerable disarray since Vatican 2.

The modern Church has many, many mansions.

___________________________________________________

To return to the topic at hand. How can you question the motivation of any individual seeking peace and the answers to life's questions. . . wherever this search may lead. You can not know his/her heart. Buddhism has a lot to offer. To anyone undertaking even some of the rigors of living in a Thai temple as a monk . .I can only offer admiration. It aint easy.

[mrbeerlao]

I'm struggling to make sense of the original post, which seems to have been co-authored by Mr. Chang...

But perhaps I can summarize it as "Farangs practicing Buddhism, even becoming monks are weird and awkward."

Interesting point of view. Also awkward, as if Farangs as a group would inherently be less inclined to practice Buddhism, but still interesting.

I lived in a temple for a while, though didn't actually get ordained in any way. Still I learned enough doing that to understand why people do it; it's the absolute perfect break of all the entrapments of regular life. It's liberating in a sense, as you leave any thoughts about a career, money, women, booze, food-as-a-hobby, fashion, gadgetry and so on at the door.

Note that you don't need to do this forever, but even doing it for any amount of time can be quite liberating.

ADDITION: I will now await posts slamming Thais, Thai temples and monks because not all monks and all temples follow Buddhism as close as some would like, along with some stories of monks misbehaving, etc. Overall though I think you can pick a temple that are a good fit for what you're looking for. Some forest temples for example.

Well spoken...

[Johnniey]

There have been a couple of these types have well secured fame and notoriety over the years. Extraordinarily rare as it is.

For those odd sorts that have sought the old Thai Theravada school, I find it personally quite awkward and embarrassed for them.

Throughout my course, I have witnessed a number of Western residences that find it their place to stumble over the tradition, only to leave because they just don't get it - even admitting so.

What is this? A terribly disjointed fashion?

I'm sure some of you older-hands have experienced this oddity over your years and would love to hear what you have to share

I have nothing but utmost respect for the farang I have known to become monks.

Why does anyone want to lead a spiritual life?

What an ignorant opening post.

[Geekfreaklover]

Some Western people who profess to be Buddhist may well be following the latest fashion. Many others however are genuine, and do so as a response to having read Buddhist teachings. They seem different from Asian Buddhists as they concentrate more on the teachings rather than the outer trappings and ritual which are passed down in families here.

I encourage everyone reading this to explore the Buddhist sub-forum on Thaivisa. You may learn a thing or two.You also might like to Google what Albert Einstein said about Buddhism.

Good post.

I'd like to elaborate.

I lived as a layman in a temple in central Thailand. I have studied the teaching of Buddha and published a book on Thai Buddhism.. The dharmapada is a good place to start for anyone interested in understanding what the Buddha was trying to say.

What I found in the temple was disturbing, and I think this is what Za was getting at.

One of the farang monks was a guy who had a disability pension from his native country. He was living at the monastry until his pension had built enough for him to build a home in Isaan with his bargirl wife he had met in Pattaya. Another was a british white nun (mai chi) who didn't even know the noble truths. She believed in some kind of pagan religion and the temple were happy to accomadate her free of charge. These farangs lived in large houses (free of charge) around the temple, had laptop computers donated to them. They were happy to live the life without having any idea about the religion that was supporting them.

I asked one of the laywomen staying at the temple what she knew about buddha and she replied that, 'he was a man that sat under a tree' That was it. That was all she knew. But, these people are not hurting anyone and what will be, as I said before, will be.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Geekfreaklover

[bonobo]

Aside for those who become monks for the religious reasons, I know of at least two high-powered American businessmen who took leaves of absence to become monks for two and six months. I spoke to one, and he was so stressed out in his job that he had a heart attack. His six months as a monk was supposed to teach him to calm down, deal with stress better, and understand himself better. His plan was to go back to his job at the conclusion of his monkhood.

[modafinil]

My impression has been that these foreigners becoming monks are not all there to begin with and usually suffer from various psychological disorders of varying degrees. I do not doubt that there are some sincere folks that genuinely want to commit themselves to a path of enlightenment. However, I find it odd that so many of these foreigners that will criticize the west for its conspicuous consumption and lack of morality get wrapped up in wats which are money making enterprises or that prostrate themselves before golden idols. I suppose for some foreigners with their history of self abuse and addiction, becoming a monk might provide a detour off the highway of early death. Of course, no one has ever stopped to consider the fact that one can become just as good a monk in the EU or NA as in Thaialnd if one is sincere. And therein lies the reason why I am so leery. These farang monks are doing a runner: Running away from their problems. The sad reality is that those little clouds of gloom that made them run always follow them to Thailand.

That's pretty cynical. The "running away" remark carries some insight, but could just as easily apply to a decent percentage of the expats in Thailand, not just wannabe monks.

Practising Buddhism in a country where you are in an extreme minority (like the EU, NA) can hardly be compared to doing the same in Thailand. Even in the UK, a geographically tiny country, my nearest Buddhist temple is more than an hour's drive away. Monks are part of the fabric of Thai society - they are treated with great respect by normal Thai people, and hopefully most farang monks do their best to make themselves worthy of that respect. If I wandered around my hometown in orange robes early in the morning, I would expect a rather different reaction .......

The whole point of Buddhism is that you absorb its teachings into your everyday life - in Thailand, you can immerse yourself in Buddhism by becoming a full-time monk. I can't see how being a "weekend monk" back in the West would even come close to this.

[Johnniey]

For those odd sorts that have sought the old Thai Theravada school, I find it personally quite awkward and embarrassed for them

Quite right, I feel the same way about people of Asian ancestry (notice I did not use a racially charged term) who convert to christianity and become pastors or priests.

Actually I don't feel that way, just wanted to show you how obnoxious your statement is

As someone not particularly fond of the "church", it pains me to point out that there were some very legitimate reasons for asians to turn to Christianity. I know that where my family lived for some generations, the Jesuits were the major educational force. The Jesuits provided access to an education to rich and poor alike and the University produced some stellar graduates that become important pillars of the community. I can understand why some people were willing to embrace Christianity as it provided an escape from the harsh feudalism that distinguished much of mainland Asia. The Jesuits in Asia, at least during the late 1800's until their ouster by their hosts were quite different than the screwed up sickos that seem to have scarred North America and Europe. I believe that there really was a desire to spread the gospel and to do it in a relatively respectful manner. (Note I use the term relative.) I also believe that the approach they used was considerably different than a great many of the foreigners that show up and want to become a monk.

My impression has been that these foreigners becoming monks are not all there to begin with and usually suffer from various psychological disorders of varying degrees. I do not doubt that there are some sincere folks that genuinely want to commit themselves to a path of enlightenment. However, I find it odd that so many of these foreigners that will criticize the west for its conspicuous consumption and lack of morality get wrapped up in wats which are money making enterprises or that prostrate themselves before golden idols. I suppose for some foreigners with their history of self abuse and addiction, becoming a monk might provide a detour off the highway of early death. Of course, no one has ever stopped to consider the fact that one can become just as good a monk in the EU or NA as in Thaialnd if one is sincere. And therein lies the reason why I am so leery. These farang monks are doing a runner: Running away from their problems. The sad reality is that those little clouds of gloom that made them run always follow them to Thailand.

So it is legitimate for Thais to turn to Christianity to escape but not ok for farang to turn to Buddhism to escape?

It's very obvious from your post that you are not a Christian. Perhaps a stay in a Buddhist temple would teach you some compassion.

What codswallop - do you really think that Thai ex addicts should not be allowed to join the monkhood? Someone want to dedicate their life to religion and you don't like them coming to Thailand to do it because they can do it in their own country? How many geriatrics come here for women? Have you ever stopped to consider the fact that there are women in in the EU and NA?

Edited September 4, 2011 by bonobo
removed personal attack

[mataus101]

_{i have been buddhist since i was 14,}

_{my choices are causing no harm to others, its not a choice i made because its in vogue, or a phase.}

_{i believe very strongly in my religion.}

[MrHammer]

I see nothing strange about living as a monk for a while, particularly if it is a real retreat without cell phone, tv and internet. Have you never travelled somewhere and felt that your mind was suddenly free to occupy itself with the things that really matter in life? Or getting to know yourself better once the 'voices' in your head (not THOSE kind of voices) stopped talking. In a modern world we are constantly bombarbed with words, images and ideas that take up a place in our minds, particularly in those who are uncritical of the agenda of others. How do you know what is you and not your grade school teacher, your parents, the media or your friends?

[Latindancer]

Good post, MrHammer !

It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with religious dogma. However as we are speaking about Buddhist monks here, I might add that I like Buddhist teachings because they are relatively free of dogma......relative to other religions, anyway. People often just want a bit of psychological space in a quiet supportive place to rediscover the person they were before society...... particularly modern society...... imposed it's demands on them.

Moreover, Buddhist teachings show profound psychological insight.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Latindancer

[nocturn]

You'll be forgiving me, I trust.

English isn't my first.

all the better reason to simplify it a bit. -- or in your case, alot.

[moe666]

I have pretty much given up on any group or religion that tells me I am going to hell or heaven. That leaves out Christians, Buddhist, and Islam.

[iono]

I saw an exchange at the U.S. embassy about six months ago that made me chuckle....Just before I entered the citizens service center there was this white guy in the Buddhist robe and another guy in street clothes asking him if he walked around like that and if Thai people said anything to him...he said something to the effect of no problems and how he comes to Thailand from time to time..he then asks the guy in street clothes so are you Buddhist? The guy replies I teach Zen Buddhism...man my brain started working over time as I wanted to corner both and start with my smart ass remarks, but as it meant nothing to me I moved along, just an interesting exchange to eavesdrop on...

By the way I'm with a Thai christian (I'm an Atheist)...I go to church every Sunday to support the family and the people of our church are very nice and constantly helping out in their community and not in your face type of Christians....Godbeless

[KhaoNiaw]

I recently dated a Thai girl who had converted to Christianity. I asked her if she was Protestant or Catholic. She looked at me blankly and said "I'm a Christian".

Many Thais don't understand that 'Christian' encompasses all denominations and use it to mean 'Protestant'.

Edited September 13, 2011 by KhaoNiaw

[Johnniey]

By the way I'm with a Thai christian (I'm an Atheist)...I go to church every Sunday to support the family and the people of our church are very nice and constantly helping out in their community and not in your face type of Christians....Godbeless

Isn't this a bit hypocritical? Support the family?

“Have the courage to say no. Have the courage to face the truth. Do the right thing because it is right. These are the magic keys to living your life with integrity.”

[iono]

By the way I'm with a Thai christian (I'm an Atheist)...I go to church every Sunday to support the family and the people of our church are very nice and constantly helping out in their community and not in your face type of Christians....Godbeless

Isn't this a bit hypocritical? Support the family?

“Have the courage to say no. Have the courage to face the truth. Do the right thing because it is right. These are the magic keys to living your life with integrity.”

Integrity, that's funny....No I accept my wife for her beliefs and she accepts my non belief...I see church as more of a social gathering..kids play piano and guitar learn about the magic book...the wife and her sisters also run a program called compassion and support many of the children throughout the area via funds from various people in the West...I've seen bad kids turned around due to the structure it offers them...so even though there is no such thing as a God and belief in such is a mental illness, the crazy folks seem to be doing some good for their community....beats waking up at six am standing in front of the house and handing rice to beggars

"These are the magic keys to living your life with integrity.” you're funny

Godbeless

[Johnniey]

By the way I'm with a Thai christian (I'm an Atheist)...I go to church every Sunday to support the family and the people of our church are very nice and constantly helping out in their community and not in your face type of Christians....Godbeless

Isn't this a bit hypocritical? Support the family?

“Have the courage to say no. Have the courage to face the truth. Do the right thing because it is right. These are the magic keys to living your life with integrity.”

Integrity, that's funny....No I accept my wife for her beliefs and she accepts my non belief...I see church as more of a social gathering..kids play piano and guitar learn about the magic book...the wife and her sisters also run a program called compassion and support many of the children throughout the area via funds from various people in the West...I've seen bad kids turned around due to the structure it offers them...so even though there is no such thing as a God and belief in such is a mental illness, the crazy folks seem to be doing some good for their community....beats waking up at six am standing in front of the house and handing rice to beggars

"These are the magic keys to living your life with integrity.” you're funny

Godbeless

Actually, I go to the church sometimes to see my kids play their musical instruments and I am not a Christian but have a strong faith in God. But c'mon, faith in God a mental illness?

“It is our desires that limit the scope of our self-realization, hinder our extension of consciousness, and give rise to sin, which is the innermost barrier that keeps us apart from our God, setting up disunion and arrogance of exclusiveness. For sin”

Rabindranath Tagore

[moe666]

Those Thais who convert to Christianty probably make better Christians than western people because of there Buddhist upbringing and compassion teaching.

I was wandering around in Bangkok and came across a Church and they where having a wedding set in the back for a while very interesting.

[KarenBravo]

Why do farang become monks?

So that when they eventually go home, they can drop it into the conversation and be regarded as mysterious, ascetic and spiritual.............

................very effective bait for picking up good-looking chicks.

[tolsti]

Sanctimonious <deleted>

what about this guy?

[surayu]

Why do farang become monks?

So that when they eventually go home, they can drop it into the conversation and be regarded as mysterious, ascetic and spiritual.............

................very effective bait for picking up good-looking chicks.

For sure it's very effective if you just want to jump whatever cue you have on front of you, to let's say, just enjoy a coffee with your mates

[zzaa09]

Why do farang become monks?

So that when they eventually go home, they can drop it into the conversation and be regarded as mysterious, ascetic and spiritual.............

Always been my suspicion. Nothing but a conduit towards fashionably perceived Oriental mystery to baffle those whom are challenged about reality.

[weary]

_{i have been buddhist since i was 14,}

_{my choices are causing no harm to others, its not a choice i made because its in vogue, or a phase.}

_{i believe very strongly in my religion.}

Wish you good resolve on your path.

[iono]

faith in God a mental illness?

“It is our desires that limit the scope of our self-realization, hinder our extension of consciousness, and give rise to sin, which is the innermost barrier that keeps us apart from our God, setting up disunion and arrogance of exclusiveness. For sin”

Rabindranath Tagore

appeal to faith: (e.g., if you have no faith, you cannot learn) if the arguer relies on faith as the bases of his argument, then you can gain little from further discussion. Faith, by definition, relies on a belief that does not rest on logic or evidence. Faith depends on irrational thought and produces intransigence.

I read a really good article on religion as a mental illness and how it as developed over the years (many years)...interesting, but in the mean time...No Beliefs There are links to the references for the article at the bottom of the page, good reading

[baboon]

Why do farang become monks?

So that when they eventually go home, they can drop it into the conversation and be regarded as mysterious, ascetic and spiritual.............

................very effective bait for picking up good-looking chicks.

Oh yeah; chicks dig that mystical flapdoodle all right.

Fancy a date?

[KarenBravo]

Why do farang become monks?

So that when they eventually go home, they can drop it into the conversation and be regarded as mysterious, ascetic and spiritual.............

................very effective bait for picking up good-looking chicks.

Oh yeah; chicks dig that mystical flapdoodle all right.

Fancy a date?

Depends.......have you been a monk?

[IMA_FARANG]

I recently dated a Thai girl who had converted to Christianity. I asked her if she was Protestant or Catholic. She looked at me blankly and said "I'm a Christian".

Many Thais don't understand that 'Christian' encompasses all denominations and use it to mean 'Protestant'.

------------------------------

I can top that.

Until I retired last year I worked in Crete.

Our driver, a Greek, was an Eastern Orthodox Christian (Greek Orthodox church). Once some people in the van were talking about Catholics and Orthodox Christian churches.

One of them asked our Greek driver, who spoke good English, if he was an Orthodpx Chritian, a Protestant, or a Catholic.

"Niether",he replied, "I'm a Christian".

I was there at the time, and I heard him say it.

But back to the main point...farangs becoming Thai Budddhist monks...there are at least two I know of on the Buddhisim subforum here on ThaiVisa who are regular contributers to that suforum. I won't reveal their forum names...but if you go to that subforum, they make no secret of the fact that they are ordained monks, and both are farangs born outside of Thailand. And there are others too, whose first language is clearly English who also post regularly on the Buddhisim subforum, and who have a deep and sincere interest in Buddhisim, and have spent spiritual retreats and studied in Thai Wats.

So it isn't unusual or odd...some people really mean it and do it because of their spiritual beliefs.

Don't assume their motives unless you know them. Some, if not all, really mean it.

P.S. By the way, there is no "requirement" in Buddhisim that insists on a Buddhist believing in a God or creator of any kind. Buddhisim is not a religion, and doesn't insist on belief in anything. For many Buddhists Buddha was just a human being, not a God, who discovered and revealed certain things about people and how they should live their lives. No God or Religion involved there.

Edited September 14, 2011 by IMA_FARANG

[baboon]

Why do farang become monks?

So that when they eventually go home, they can drop it into the conversation and be regarded as mysterious, ascetic and spiritual.............

................very effective bait for picking up good-looking chicks.

Oh yeah; chicks dig that mystical flapdoodle all right.

Fancy a date?

Depends.......have you been a monk?

Well, no, but I can spout stuff like `that from which can be deviated is not the Tao` after inbibing copious ammounts of lager beer. I will even pretend I know what it means if you like....