Bar Opens Next Door

[cheeryble]

Hi

I've been working on buying some edge-of-village land, about a rai, which is in four bits and required a wait for one of the pieces to get administration rights to a daughter of a deceased. Even with a 30 day wait for objections it will be ready to complete the deal in a month and maybe can even do in days.

I have paid out

30k advance to the main seller.

10k lawyer.

300k my gf took over as mortgagor for seller's loan from bank to ensure they didn't go elsewhere.....registered on chanoot.

Naturally a lot of time and lawyer meetings has been put into this complicated deal over the last three months....I wouldn't have bothered with several months overcoming technicalities if I didn't think this plot had some really special points.....close to CM......on river.....probably-uninterruptible-in-future view of countryside and mountains.....good shape......and I think good value.

Let me explain the seller is moving back into a family house or compound right next door to the land.

I like them they have been completely trusting of me and we have reciprocated and tried to be fair and considerate in every way. We signed contracts and they were so trusting they said can we keep their copy!!

They have been energetic and open handed I believe.

So I take a bike ride there a few days ago.

What do I see?

They have knocked down a rather rough dwelling on the corner of the land next to my corner fronting the river and on the concrete base what do I see......what looks like a low end noodle shop but I see the dreaded bottle crates in the corner. On a very very low traffic dirt track next to the river. The building is actually touching my border.

I get thoughts of guys drinking whisky with music playing.

I tell my gf and she calls.

Yes, we're going to make a karaoke, she is told.....and my gf mentioned something about yes they were speaking about a bar the other day (why the hell didn't she tell me!)

So my gf calls again mentioning my concern

"Oh well we haven't really decided, maybe we'll just have a restaurant"

Now actually I find it rather nice and open of them that they actually used the horror words karaoke and bar rather than restaurant. I think they really didn't realise it could be objectionable to me.

My situation is:

I know the place might well fail or in the village everyone goes home at 8 or it might just have some noise a couple of nights a week.....but I really don't want any possibility of living next to lousy music and drunken voices even in the background I hate it. And I think this is an up and coming area it could be very attractive in a couple of years.

I cannot say to them hey you can't do this.....they just want to make a living like all of us.

But what I can legitimately say is "I don't want to buy your land if you go ahead with the restaurant".

Seems to me a promise is not enough for me to spend 3 million baht for land and house and a year of my life building and in any case I don't want to breed bad feeling. So far I thought of two possibilities.

1 They register a servitude to not sell alcohol or play music in any form.....and I buy.

This option of course means I may have to enforce the servitude.....not a happy prospect.

2 We don't buy.....but how do I reclaim my 300k loan (whose term is 6 months)?

The contract actually only specifically obliges the seller to sell at a set price it doesn't mention my gf buying.......except that it is titled sunya seu/kay...contract to buy/to sell to buy....and my gf signed it. Maybe the agreement to buy is presumed automatically.

The only easy way out would be to find a new buyer. But they may have the same concerns as me.

Am I up #%@^ creek without a paddle?

All constructive thoughts welcome. 300k would be a real loss to me.

Edited September 6, 2011 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

GF just got a call from the lawyer saying administration has been OK'd and we can go in Thursday to finalise the detail for the buy.

So this is now pressing....

[guzzi850m2]

A karaoke bar next door sound like a nightmare right out of hell.

I my opinion: If you can't make an agreement with them for buying the land they want to make a bar on, walk away and try cancel the deal and get at least some of the money back or take the loss of 300k bath. Even a restaurant next door will be bad, people coming and going all the time, constant smell of cooking food, no thanks.

[PattayaParent]

Say you stop your nice neighbours from building a bar / karaoke / restaurant and then they sell the adjacent land to someone else that has the same idea?

Or the owner of the adjacent land on the other side of yours decides he wants to open a karaoke / bar?

You only have 2 options

1. When the noise from the karaoke kicks off go over there and join in 'cos you ain't going to get any sleep.

2. Walk away from the deal now and be prepared to take the 300k loss and any money recovered will be a bonus.

[thaicbr]

just put up with it.. as you say it's the back of beyond . so probably will only be a small scale affair.. in my gf's village they have a few. its only odd times they have a party rest of the time the fella's are all drunk by about 9pm.

[johnnyk]

join the party or kiss the 300K goodbye.

[stiggy]

Good luck with that.

Propery isnt yours that they are building on so cant say a word.

Thais have no sense of noise pollution, I would say worse than Indians having lived in both countries.

Have exactly the same situation, thankfully only long term rent in my case.Paid 2 1/2 years for office space and appartment in Phuket in a obviously residential area perfect first 8 months,then some idiot opens a full scale Karaoke right in the middle.

So far had 4 attempted breakins all from the adjecent karaoke side,always drunk out of there head.

Numerous fights at 2 am some very violent.

Music blaring full guns intermittently throughout the night.

One fight spilled into our garden and two burmese guys stabbed multiple times.

Several times found people asleep in back of truck from previous night.

Hookers screaming and carrying on.

police dont care as get tea money.

Fourtunatly karaoke bars often dont survive and everyone moves on, but not always.

[somtampet]

Good luck with that.

Propery isnt yours that they are building on so cant say a word.

Thais have no sense of noise pollution, I would say worse than Indians having lived in both countries.

Have exactly the same situation, thankfully only long term rent in my case.Paid 2 1/2 years for office space and appartment in Phuket in a obviously residential area perfect first 8 months,then some idiot opens a full scale Karaoke right in the middle.

So far had 4 attempted breakins all from the adjecent karaoke side,always drunk out of there head.

Numerous fights at 2 am some very violent.

Music blaring full guns intermittently throughout the night.

One fight spilled into our garden and two burmese guys stabbed multiple times.

Several times found people asleep in back of truck from previous night.

Hookers screaming and carrying on.

police dont care as get tea money.

Fourtunatly karaoke bars often dont survive and everyone moves on, but not always.

Just a thought,how can u complain when the land doesnt belong to u,your gf will have to stirr the shit,and u know she wont.

[jackdawson]

great story

thanks

u gotta' get out right ? yesterday , right ? i mean , there's no living next to the locals drinking , singing and playing distortedly loud lao music is there ?

note to self : continue to NEVER buy in thailand (land at least)

note to self (#2) ; continue to NEVER pay in advance for anything (when at all possible)

Edited September 7, 2011 by jackdawson

[cheeryble]

Thankyou for your replies.

They all contain good sense as generalities but feel they are not manicured to the personal situation I laid out in my opening post.

May be useful for posters to read that again.

The sellers are seem nice.....and certainly innocent.

It's very countrified with scant trade likely, but if I take no action MAY have some music to go with drinkies.

It's highly unlikely to be a full scale music bar.

If it was it would be highy unlikely to stay open late.

I was sent a very interestinf private message which tells me that in fact there ARE considerable restrictions on this sort of enterprise, licences needed etc.

It mentions personal knowledge of places being closed down after action.

Now i'm still in the position of wondering whether to pull out or not. The. consensus from my friends so far as I have 300k in it (possibly retreivable?) is to buy and try.

Whilst action would be undesirable if it did turn out to be noisy and we can't simply ask our neighbour to make it a restaurant only maybe action is an option in the event I wanted to sell.

Any thoughts on if an encumbrance on the land under the potential problem can have an encumbrance against music or selling alchol and whethier it's enforceable? ( last place i owned in England wasn't allowed to have a baker or confectioner on it's premises.)

Bear in mind they really do want to sell so I have some clout at the moment....

[Thaddeus]

Say you stop your nice neighbours from building a bar / karaoke / restaurant and then they sell the adjacent land to someone else that has the same idea?

Or the owner of the adjacent land on the other side of yours decides he wants to open a karaoke / bar?

You only have 2 options

1. When the noise from the karaoke kicks off go over there and join in 'cos you ain't going to get any sleep.

2. Walk away from the deal now and be prepared to take the 300k loss and any money recovered will be a bonus.

If the location and situation is as described, there is a third option.

Go ahead with the deal, let them make their little bar and then wait for them to go out of business.

[cheeryble]

Yes PP

It's highly likely they won't get enough business to be anything worthwhile.

Problem is they have no rent and my guess is they will come and serve anyone who turns up......so it could linger longer than most.

Still thinkg about possibility of encumbrance on their property. It's certainly not difficult to register something against a chanoot I registered the 300k with a 3 baht form and a fairly stiff land office fee. Question is how does one enforce if it is breached.....

[VeraLynn]

Your making enemies before you've even bought the land that you can't own. Could be there getting ready to party once the land is bought and house built and your told to "get on ya bike".

[cheeryble]

The final documents enabling this transaction are available tomorrow after a long wait.

We went to see the sellers and I was very straight. Sure enough as I predicted they said "Oh just a little restaurant no noise"

and they may be right it may well be reasonable.

But its actually in a nice location with great surroundings and they've made it rather nice in a simple way.....it could easily make it, and I know that Thai owners will never throw anyone out who's still spending and they won't complain if someone turns music on or up.

The bad news is:

I love the location etc and don't want to stop the deal, but must be realistic that I may have to.

Apart form personal considerations about possible noise or parking it affects the saleability certainly to a farang..... and that really means something if I move or split the land.

The good news is:

They cannot sell elsewhere until the loan is paid off same as a mortgage. I may have to wait fro them to sell to another......and they need the money......but if I have trouble getting my money back I have both copies of the contract we made when we gave a modest 30k deposit to help them through the wait.

Extra expenses so far not too heavy.

We made the registered loan for 400k rather than the 300k we actually gave them. This was because I was going to put fill on the land and I wanted to be covered for the expense if things fell through. In fact I've held off on the fill.

Loan is due in 6 months from 10 weeks ago.

I doubt they have a building permit or load of other things needed for their restaurant.

I wish them well I really do I understand everyone needs to make a buck. But I have to take stock of my ammunition and theirs just in case. My Thai lawyer today was scathing about Thai ethics when money's involved, gave me a personal example where she had to move herself and her father out to a hotel last Songkran thanks to the neighbours, and told me to think long and hard.

Edited September 8, 2011 by cheeryble

[Gonsalviz]

My wife opened a massage shop that is about 1 meter away from a Reggae bar. I tried to explain to her that massages and Reggae music with the thudding drums was not conducive to a relaxing massage. It fell on deaf ears.

The Reggae bar is open air and the walls of her shop are 10 cm bricks.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Gonsalviz

[Jimbob1]

Personally I think your worried about nothing ...

They have a bit of money and want to set up small business ....

I see all Thai's in small villages do this ... most fail and move onto something else in 6 months ...

What is the worst that can happen .. ?? if it turns out to be a huge success you can sell land back to them for expansion...

Or ... Set up the same and have an instant client base ...

My experience with village life is that they might sell some noodles and a few beers / Low Cow to locals and they go home early ...

:jap:

[skippie999]

the solution is more simple than you think:

buy the neighbors plot as well yourself and sell later. you probably make a profit when your house is finished because it is going to be a good looking and fait plce to built a house with the same outlook as yourself.

when you buy send me a quote to buy later from you the neighboring land.....

[khunPer]

To my knowledge, you cannot do anything but a polite talk to your neighbors. If they insist on their project, bail out or buy the land next door also.

[cheeryble]

Thanks for your comments. Things are coming to a head.

As explained, since last mid week the sale can legally take place.

Saturday my girlfriend spoke to the sellers about the "just a little restaurant" problem and said I would like to think about it a week or two. Please jai yen yen. I was considering several options including

1 forget it and try to regain my 350k funds when (if?) they sell elsewhere.

2 ask for an encumbrance against alcohol or music

3 buy the plot the restaurant sits on as Skippie and Per suggested. (i suggested that last week but was told it was too difficult....but can try again)

Sunday, after she had done a 16 hour all night shift, they called her four times, and after getting no reply they called our lawyer in the evening. This morning. They called my girlfriend, who was at a funeral, eight times before 10am. Eventually she spoke to them and the tone has changed to anger. They seem to think it's our fault they have credit companies chasing them and that we don't fancy a bar next door in the country with the 30 odd seats looking across our quiet little nest. Two days ago I cycled through the village to look at another restaurant there. It had at least ten cars filling the car park......so even if they made a "quiet little restaurant" there's traffic and parking....and no car park. The fact is that next to our land is a much prettier spot and could easily take some or even most of the trade from the other one.

So when my gf spoke they now threatened legal action.....my girlfriend said you must do what you must do but after putting this deal together over many months and helping them a lot with funding we deserve some time on this. So we simply stood firm.

They called again and a material possibility has happened. They have offered to contract that the restaurant will not be there.

The quesion now is:

1 Do i want to live there given there is now bad blood and they will no doubt blame us for all their future financial and business problems?

2 Is an encumbrance on the title in question legally and practically possible?

3 now we have to think twice about things like utiliities which were going to come across their relatives land without a legal right as several relatives.

Boring! But all comments help me to think out the best solution, like thinking aloud.

They call it The Wisdom of Crowds...

Cheeryble

[Daffy D]

Unfortunately this is one of the hazards of doing business here. Everything is nice friendly as long as the money is flowing and things are going their way. As soon as there is a hint that the flow of money is drying up or you disagree with their grand schemes the attitude changes.

I have seen this happen several times where the Farang had known a family for years, regarded them as his friends, been invited to all the family functions, then because he really did consider them as true friends went into business with them.

All his money of course and at first things were wonderfully till he started questioning all the expenses. Then overnight their attitude changed, everything was in their name so what could he do.

They are not friends anymore.

I think you may have a lucky escape if you cut your losses now. As you say already there is some bad feelings just because you raised the question of the restaurant. They will not forget that.

Also it seems they are desperate for the deal to be finalized, all those phone calls, possibly they have spent the money already and if the deal falls through they will definitely "Loose Face" .They will not forget that.

You mention "utilities which were going to come across their relatives land without a legal right" .

This will be a disaster for you. No matter how friendly the their "relatives" appear at the moment things will change and once you have built your house or whatever you intend to do you will be held to ransom, if not by the current relatives by their siblings or offspring or some distant cousin that comes out of nowhere at the scent of money.

Any legal agreement you may enter into to limit the restaurants activities and to give you rights for the utilities will only be honored as long as the deal goes through and they get their money. After that they will do what ever they like and there is nothing you can do about it.

Consider yourself fortunate that the other guy was stupid enough to let you know about the restaurant before the deal was finalized, he wont make that mistake again.

[khunPer]

Servitude is a possibility. The servitude may be a contract between you/your plot and the seller/the seller's plot - meaning the servitude follows the plot(s), including future owner(s). I have done that with a chanote plot, including an agreed compensation if breached. My lawyer wrote the servitude in both Thai and English (only the Thai text is valid in Court). However, you may not be able to have the servitude registered at the Land Office (written on the back on the chanote deeds), if there already is a mortgage or loan registered on a deed. Anyway, if the servitude is breached, you will have to take legal action (which may cause a lot of further problems).

You have a good point when saying, that you are going to live next to them. In my opinion and at this state, you may consider a bail out - or buying the other plot - before you invest more money into a potential problem. If the mortgage transfer has been done correct, to my knowledge you may own that claim (loan) on the land in question, so the land cannot be sold or transferred without the loan being paid in full.

Is that particular plot so unique, that you will never find any match?

If not, perhaps think the same, as everyone at TV probably will suggest, if it was a lady with a problem: Count your losses and bail out, there are thousands of others waiting for you!

Edited September 12, 2011 by khunPer

[stgrhe]

There is one golden rule in business and that is not to put in good money to save bad money. All successful business people have sometime during their career come across a sour deal and what distinguish them is that they pull out in time and count their losses.

[cheeryble]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies.

Regarding utilities Daffy. You're right of course.

Seems to me I can now no longer rely on trust of the sellers or their relatives alone, and a proper servitude to provide service via them from the rear is not a goer I think as it would come across several lots.

I must ask both the other side neighbour about their source and also the utility companies if they will be providing service from the front.....or the cost for private connection that side. (Yes that is my back up possibility when connecting thru sellers)

Khun Per

I am seeing the lawyer later and have thought that a servitude on the restaurant plot may be worth exploring for say no businesses allowed.

The whole I want to buy is actually four lots. The restaurant plot is the same legal type as the part of my potential land joining it. This land is due to go to the seller of the main 2 chanoot lots' not-of-age daughters under a family agreement, so that seller is effectively the owner, she is the controller, now) .....the registered owner who signed the family agreement (another relative) of both my to-be corner lot and the contiguous restaurant lot just outside died and administration rights have just been passed to her 30yo next of kin (hence our wait of three months). So while my potential lot is about 70% made up of two full chanoots and a small 25 wah unregistered dtok samluat lot that the lawyer's OK with, about 30% in the front corner in question now under administration of a relative we have been planning on getting a superificies to me on and if possible a servitude for no building or plantation (land office permitting, and yes we are told by our lawyer the new administrator CAN encumber the estate with say a superficies even if she can't yet transfer it). This superficies on payment of only a 10% deposit of our agreed wah price for that piece. The administrator will contract to sell my gf the land in 6 years when a ten year ban on transfer after registration of new title four years ago finishes. As that piece of land is worth nothing to them with the superficies/servitude and they will be getting completion of payment and they are legally bound there is no reason to think full transfer won't happen in future.

So just as the 30yo administrator can give an encumbrance on the land I am buying she can presumably give a servitude on the restaurant lot.

But yes, it will cause bad feeling unless I can sweeten the pill considerably.

The lot is not unique, but I've found problem free and really nice lots are few and far between. Despite the hassle and wait this was potentially ideal with a great location and OK price. We agreed full asking price for the main chanoot lots but a very greatly reduced price for the two smaller hassle lots because of the risk and nuisance and wait......making an average attractive price but them happy as hell that they can get something for the two lots which they thought unsellable.

Strghe

Thankyou for your sage advice I shall bear it in mind certainly.

I think it is indeed worth exploring further today with the lawyer though. 350k is a lot to me I have limited pockets.

I shall also ask about the possibility of somehow buying that restaurant lot. It would mean I could sell to a friend to have a small house in the corner, I'd like that. It would probably have to be the same basis as my corner lot, ie superficies with contract to sell/buy in 6 years. This may make a sale difficult. We'll see.

Cheeryble

Edited September 13, 2011 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

Saw my lawyer.

It seems as I thought yes the can sue me to fulfil the contract and just cos a bar is unacceptable to me doesn't matter. Will they and will they win is another question, but they could, and I would have to buy.

Apparently the loan is a completely separate issue, and I can claim that back in December regardless. In fact my pawyer said if they defaulted I could probably then buy the land much cheaper in an auction. I said I would not like to do anything like that.

I said as there's now going to be bad feeling it seems my best option is to bail, and we all thought how could I do that?

Tha fact is there's no easy way.

I could give them time with the loan and hope for a sale elsewhere, but with a quarter of the land as a usufruct or superficies with untransferrable deeds for 6 years buyers may likely go elsewhere.

I could of course buy.

That leaves two alternatives.

If things felt better even after an encumbrance against a business next door (which they now say they would grant) i could, if things felt OK, either build as planned or sit on it. Maybe I could go halfway, buy and develop the plot, make a pond and raise the fill and make a garden and hedges......make it more sellable. Worst case if I don't want to live there, I develop it, and can rsell at latest in 6 years with full title to the whole lot ( if I'm still alive!)

I must say I'd rather avoid he hassle and just bail, but maybe cannot.

IMPORTANT QUESTION:

if i get a lifetime usufruct on the untransferrable-for-now quarter, can I sell a 30 year lease on it if I get a buyer? This way the buyer really could feel secure as well as the lease he can get the right to buy After 6 years I would have.....but with the safety factor of a lease. Te lawyer said this hadn't gone to court, but I believe I read it had.????.

Cheeryble

[Darrel]

When I read threads like this I wonder if the law prohibiting farangs from owning any land in Thailand wasn't in fact enacted solely to protect farangs from a lot of hassle and potential loss. Either way, I'm rather glad that as a law-abiding resident I have no intention at all of ever getting involved with land purchases of any type.

Buying a Thai condo in farang name here is more than unpleasant enough, and gives one a remarkable insight into the insincere, dishonest and grasping nature of the human animal.

[cheeryble]

You may be right Darrel.

I prefer to take the more charitable look in this case, to them noise is not the same as to us.

Yes they could have been more forthcoming but hey they are desperate to get out of debt. They have at least been industrious.

However given the hand they played I would have no qualms at withdrawing if it was easy, but it ain't....

To answer my own question last post I found this in my records:

"Even if the Usufruct will end at the death of the Usufructuary (or a fixed period of time) , the Usufructuary can lease out the land to a third party and this second agreement will NOT end when the Usufructuary dies as per the Supreme Court ruling 2297/1998......"

Is this kosher? Can I issue a 30yr lease based on a lifetime usufruct?

Cheeryble

[khunPer]

There are some treads about Usufruct here (TV) and in other forums. Some people favor usufructs and others do not. Also the question about a Usufruct-lease has been discussed.

I do not know enough about Usufruct, to say anything – but I checked the book “How to Buy Land and Build a House in Thailand” by Philip Bryce. He writes on pages 16-19 about Usufruct and repeats the law in English. He also mentions Judgment 2297/1998 about lease. According to Philip Bryce, many lawyers do not know much or enough about Usufruct agreements.

The moment a land deal is not straightforward Chanote or Nor Sor 3, it may be complicated. Normally the advice is: "Never buy anything, but Chanote or Nor Sor 3." Little different with village-plots traded or transferred between the villagers or relatives (some deeds can only be transferred to family/relatives) – for a farang (being the one paying) normally "small" money, which comes under the rule: "Never invest more in Thailand, than you can afford to loose."

If you cannot bail out, your idea by developing the plot as an investment may be a good solution. But that seems like a bit long term plan (six years), as a potential buyer may look for Chanote or a straightforward unquestionable 30y-lease – and that may be a problem with “limited pockets”. For most of us, building our “dream home in Paradise” is a major investment we do not like – or cannot afford – to loose. Of course, as you say, you can build your house and if you do not like to live there, sell it after six years. Also having a plot, which can be subdivided (or several plots, buying the neighboring plots also), may be a really good investment.

However, scares me a little about the “under age” owners. Can they in the future claim the agreement changed? I have read something in a forum – or book – about that and that a guardian cannot make agreements, which limits the child’s later disposal of the land. I know about one farang, who was fighting in the Court with children about an agreement made by their parents. Also between Thais, there sometimes seems to be conflicts about land deal agreements – sometimes they do not even go to the Court, which is even more scarring (Usufruct).

As I said, I do not know enough about your situation to give any real advise – but when thing starts to get (too) complicated, I would consider the possibility for a bail out.

[cheeryble]

Thanks Khun Per

I will be very interested to find out if anyone sees any weakness in that Judgment 2297/1998

I was going to use superficies for the "problem" plot, but believe this possibility to later give a lease would make it very worthwhile to go with usufruct. For those who doubt their nominee this would possibly be a great protection, as one can say if they caused problems and say refused to sell when asked "Either we sell and you get a payoff, or you'll be waiting an extra 30 years for any benefit".

The good news is 3 of the 4 lots are chanoot, just that one is untransferable for the 6 years. The last, small, lot is untitled but the sellers of the 2 transferable chanoot lots AND the administrator of the "problem" lot would renounce all claim in my gf's favour. Lawyer says OK and we may wait a year or maybe more if they don't get round to it, apparently they do batches in areas when they get a backlog. So although I'll only get a usufruct with contract to buy on the problem lot it is at least fully titled.

Your last point as to the children (daughters of the main seller), lawyer says this is purely a family agreement to pass that lot to them when of age and has no power in law against third parties like us. The family agreement is for splitting up assets and innheritances to various family members. So maybe they can sue the administrator but not us and that administrator is bound to complete agreements with us in law. In any case their mother, the main seller, will also get the payment for the lots, not the administrator. This is something I shall have to trust the lawyer on.

cheers Cheeryble

Edited September 13, 2011 by cheeryble

[kokesaat]

Personal observations from living in the countryside for 15 years:

- village karaoke bars come and go. They may get off to a quick start because of an infusion of cash, but when the customers dry up (as they invariably do), the bar will close. Patience. Karaoke bars are better than pig farms.

- if you don't buy that piece of land and decide on another, there'll be no guarantee that another karaoke bar won't open nearby (karaoke bars generally do damage within a km radius....they don't have to be immediately next door).

- if you really want to be isolated from neighborhood encroachment, buy up the land immediately next to the land where you want to build a house.

We've got one of those perfect pieces of land......drinkable well water, government land on one side, a retired general and his teacher wife on another, and a large plot leased out by a doctor to local farmers. But we've gone through a half-dozen of village karaoke bars over the years. None last long.

Jai yen yen, as they say in Thailand. There are few rules to protect you, but time is on your side.

Good luck.

[khunPer]

Thanks Khun Per

I will be very interested to find out if anyone sees any weakness in that Judgment 2297/1998

I was going to use superficies for the "problem" plot, but believe this possibility to later give a lease would make it very worthwhile to go with usufruct. For those who doubt their nominee this would possibly be a great protection, as one can say if they caused problems and say refused to sell when asked "Either we sell and you get a payoff, or you'll be waiting an extra 30 years for any benefit".

The good news is 3 of the 4 lots are chanoot, just that one is untransferable for the 6 years. The last, small, lot is untitled but the sellers of the 2 transferable chanoot lots AND the administrator of the "problem" lot would renounce all claim in my gf's favour. Lawyer says OK and we may wait a year or maybe more if they don't get round to it, apparently they do batches in areas when they get a backlog. So although I'll only get a usufruct with contract to buy on the problem lot it is at least fully titled.

Your last point as to the children (daughters of the main seller), lawyer says this is purely a family agreement to pass that lot to them when of age and has no power in law against third parties like us. The family agreement is for splitting up assets and innheritances to various family members. So maybe they can sue the administrator but not us and that administrator is bound to complete agreements with us in law. In any case their mother, the main seller, will also get the payment for the lots, not the administrator. This is something I shall have to trust the lawyer on.

cheers Cheeryble

Thanks for your update.

Seems like you are in good hands with your lawyer now.

Wish you all the best luck with the deal and your future.