B150 Charge Applied To Your Thai Acct As Well

[bangkokburning]

GF had her K card activated for use overseas. Rep informed her that any pull (I do not know if a purchase would qualify) would cost her B150.

So, it's not anti foreign - it's just monopoly.

[RKASA]

Her bank will charge 150 for overseas ATM as most US banks do when you use one here - but the Bank overseas which owns the atm she uses will not be adding 150 more to her transaction amount and skimming her account and that is what makes it here cost 300baht rather then 150. That is what Thai banks do to foreign atm cards. plus you still pay the other fee. The 150 in Thailand is extra to all other things and added to the transaction balance amount and is not a fee because it is never listed it is just taken from your transaction after adding it to the amount you requested. (forced account skimming) Your choice money or no money.

[Naam]

Her bank will charge 150 for overseas ATM as most US banks do when you use one here - but the Bank overseas which owns the atm she uses will not be adding 150 more to her transaction amount and skimming her account and that is what makes it here cost 300baht rather then 150. That is what Thai banks do to foreign atm cards. plus you still pay the other fee. The 150 in Thailand is extra to all other things and added to the transaction balance amount and is not a fee because it is never listed it is just taken from your transaction after adding it to the amount you requested. (forced account skimming) Your choice money or no money.

the Thai banks provide a service with their ATMs. establishing and providing that service costs money. charging a fee for that service has nothing to do with "skimming". the "other fee" foreign banks charge is none of their business.

"money or no money" is indeed your choice. if you don't like their fees don't use their service. as simple as that.

[ramrod711]

or, you can use an aeon bank machine and not pay the 150 baht charge here in thailand.

[LandOfSmileys]

As the popular saying, now more than ever is, GREEDY BANKERS! Occupy Wall Street. Sure "they" provide a "service", but if EVERY bank charges 150 baht, then it is an agreed upon monopoly, no competition. Seeing all the bank execs give themselves multi-million Euro bonuses EVERY year, well, I don't think the ATM service costs them more than a few baht per transaction, and don't forget, ATMs are WAY cheaper than live tellers that they replace and don't require whole offices to work in, with toilets and rest breaks. I am all for paying for a legitimate service, and going to the best competition to get it, but with no competition...

[Naam]

I don't think the ATM service costs them more than a few baht per transaction

please be kind enough and explain to us, perhaps adding a few facts, why you "think" that? you could by start telling us how much an ATM costs, it's maintenance and especially the global data connection 24 hours 7 days a week.

[bangkokburning]

Naam: ATM transaction costs >10B about US.36 to be exact. It is at the very least gouging and would not clear US and doubtfully EU banking standards. Monopoly nothing to do with service.

I think my point has been missed or misconstrued by some.

If you have a THAI ATM/debit card, Thai banks in particular K Bank will ding you on an an international ATM pull the same as if you use your Intl ATM card here in Thailand with yes - exception being AEON (for now).

That is all.

Edited November 28, 2011 by bangkokburning

[Naam]

ATM transaction costs >10B about US.36 to be exact.

that is what you claim without being able to substantiate your claim. besides, the cost differ based on usage. do you have any idea what the cost of an ATM and its lifespan is?

[bangkokburning]

You are smart but not that smart Naam. In fact, it is LOWER than I had stated AND this chart is well five years old.

http://banking.senat...rts/chart01.pdf

And yes, an intl transaction or interbank transaction will cost the bank more than a pull at your local community bank where you deposit is on hold. Of course.

How many ATMs a bank wishes to have is totally irrelevant, a red herring and a total cost of doing business in the manner, fashion and service that it sees fit. The lifespan of an ATM is also totally irrelevant - but I could find out precisely both your points if you want to pay me for my time.

Edited November 29, 2011 by bangkokburning

[Naam]

source: Gemini Consulting 1996

The lifespan of an ATM is also totally irrelevant

smart people are... smart people. no doubt!

Edited November 29, 2011 by Naam

[LandOfSmileys]

I don't think the ATM service costs them more than a few baht per transaction

please be kind enough and explain to us, perhaps adding a few facts, why you "think" that? you could by start telling us how much an ATM costs, it's maintenance and especially the global data connection 24 hours 7 days a week.

The chart in link provided by BKKburning is proof my "thinking" was right. I read a LOT and over the years I have gathered info about many things. It is quite clear that machines are cheaper, WAY cheaper, to operate than hiring ugly bags of mostly water. If this wasn't so, they wouldn't be there (ATMs). ATMs don't go on strike, don't require health insurance, are never late to work, don't require overtime pay, can legally be forced to "work" 24 hours a day 365 days/year, NEVER get tired, never steal, require MUCH less space, use WAY less resources, don't require new employee training, have zero turn-over rate... THIS is why I "think" they cost only a few Baht per xaction. I base my thinking on facts that I understand, from having gathered information over years and years from reliable sources. Why are you so quick to defend greedy banks?

[cardholder]

I am content to pay 3 Quid for the ability to make an overseas ATM withdrawal.

Especially, at places like Canadia bank in Cambodia where there are no host fees.

It compares very favourably to the use of UK cards abroad.

[Naam]

I don't think the ATM service costs them more than a few baht per transaction

please be kind enough and explain to us, perhaps adding a few facts, why you "think" that? you could by start telling us how much an ATM costs, it's maintenance and especially the global data connection 24 hours 7 days a week.

The chart in link provided by BKKburning is proof my "thinking" was right. I read a LOT and over the years I have gathered info about many things. It is quite clear that machines are cheaper, WAY cheaper, to operate than hiring ugly bags of mostly water. If this wasn't so, they wouldn't be there (ATMs). ATMs don't go on strike, don't require health insurance, are never late to work, don't require overtime pay, can legally be forced to "work" 24 hours a day 365 days/year, NEVER get tired, never steal, require MUCH less space, use WAY less resources, don't require new employee training, have zero turn-over rate... THIS is why I "think" they cost only a few Baht per xaction. I base my thinking on facts that I understand, from having gathered information over years and years from reliable sources. Why are you so quick to defend greedy banks?

the chart is worthless without providing a break-down! it takes me less than 10 minutes to generate and put a chart on a website which states that the cost of one ATM pull is 89.95 US-Dollars.

i am not defending any banks and i am well aware that banks, like any commercial enterprise, are trying to maximise their profits by any means available; basically on the back of us clients. i am arguing against "thinking" what the cost of any product or service is. "gathering information from reliable sources" without being able to substantiate them or answer the simple question "how much is the initial capital cost, setup, maintenance and working life of an ATM?" makes -in my[notso]humble opinion any "thinking" worthless. the same applies to [not so] smart statements (not yours!) "usage frequency does not matter".

that the cost of an ATM is lower than the cost of an employed teller goes without saying. there's no need to state "two plus two equals four".

[bangkokburning]

Naam - that chart comes from a US Senate report. To deride as fluff is utter nonsense. I am rethinking stating that you are smart.

Information presented to the US Senate, by the US Senate Committee on Banking.

http://banking.senate.gov/public/

Duh

[LandOfSmileys]

<br />

<br />

<br />

I don't think the ATM service costs them more than a few baht per transaction

<br />please be kind enough and explain to us, perhaps adding a few facts, why you "think" that? you could by start telling us how much an ATM costs, it's maintenance and especially the global data connection 24 hours 7 days a week.<br />

<br /> The chart in link provided by BKKburning is proof my "thinking" was right.  I read a LOT and over the years I have gathered info about many things.  It is quite clear that machines are cheaper, WAY cheaper, to operate than hiring ugly bags of mostly water.  If this wasn't so, they wouldn't be there (ATMs).  ATMs don't go on strike, don't require health insurance, are never late to work, don't require overtime pay, can legally be forced to "work" 24 hours a day 365 days/year, NEVER get tired, never steal, require MUCH less space, use WAY less resources, don't require new employee training, have zero turn-over rate... THIS is why I "think" they cost only a few Baht per xaction.  I base my thinking on facts that I understand, from having gathered information over years and years from reliable sources.  Why are you so quick to defend greedy banks?  <img src='http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />

<br />the chart is worthless without providing a break-down! it takes me less than 10 minutes to generate and put a chart on a website which states that the cost of one ATM pull is 89.95 US-Dollars.<br /><br />i am not defending any banks and i am well aware that banks, like any commercial enterprise, are trying to maximise their profits by any means available; basically on the back of us clients. i am arguing against "thinking" what the cost of any product or service is. "gathering information from reliable sources" without being able to substantiate them or answer the simple question "how much is the initial capital cost, setup, maintenance and working life of an ATM?" makes -in my[notso]humble opinion any "thinking" worthless. the same applies to [not so] smart statements (not yours!) "usage frequency does not matter". <br /><br />that the cost of an ATM is lower than the cost of an employed teller goes without saying. there's no need to state "two plus two equals four".<br />

<br /><br /><br />

OK, so you do agree that "the cost of an ATM is lower than the cost of an employed teller". Obviously ATMs are all over so-called 1st world countries, with 1st world teller pay, and banks find ATMs profitable there, then if they STILL find them profitable in a country where the average pay is 200Bt a day... well, now that I think about it in that light. I revise my previous "think" (based on years of news input) to: "I think the cost per transaction on an ATM in LOS is probably LESS than a few Satang." I don't care what the "initial capital cost, setup, maintenance and working life of an ATM" is, in exact numbers. I can see through other observations (the fact that banks use ATMs profusely) for one, that they must be pretty thrifty units to operate. Jumbo jets have a huge "initial capital cost, setup, maintenance etc." but due to massive competition, and that they can be in service over 40 years, I can buy a ticket to ride one for under 75 Euro. I don't know, in exact numbers, because I don't need to, the service life of an ATM. I do know for a fact, however, that like jumbo jets and other commercial apparatus, ATMs are built to last, so the long lifespan defrays initial capital cost, setup, maintenance etc. If you are so keen on numbers, you can buy an ATM for between 3-7,000 Euro, ATM 7,000- 20 yrs=350 Euro/yr 365 days= 0.958 Euro/day 400 transactions=0.002395 Euro per transaction. So initial investment is just about zero.(per transaction) Therefor, as I "thought", 150Bt is a massive gouge and a "few baht" is reasonable.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Here's what BKKBank, for example, has on their web site re using their debit card abroad:

When making payments or withdrawing cash overseas with your Be1st Visa Debit card, the amount will be converted to Thai Baht based on Visa's normal exchange rates with a conversion charge added which will not exceed 2.5% of the exchange rate applied. Cash withdrawals will be charged a flat fee of 100Bt.

http://www.bangkokba...es/default.aspx

And then, depending on the bank, it's likely the foreign (non-Thai bank ATM) also will have a fee for using another bank's ATM card in their machine. But at least in the U.S., those fees are rarely as high as the $5/150 baht fee that Thai banks charge here on foreign card use.

BTW, the part that's problematic about the Thai banks' 150 baht fee on foreign card us is this:

In Thailand, if you use another Thai banks' ATM card in a different Thai bank's ATM, you might pay a very small fee, particularly if you do more than a handful of those kind of transactions in a month... But if you use a foreign card, they hit you for 150 baht every time. To me that's not fair.

In the U.S., there's no extra ATM charge for foreign vs. domestic card use. For most of the larger banks, if you use their ATM with a card other than theirs or their network, you'll be charged one standard fee, usually $2 or $3... Same if you're using a card from a different U.S. bank. Same if you're using a compatible VISA or MC logo debit card from another country.

Edited December 4, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Naam]

you can buy an ATM for between 3-7,000 Euro, ATM 7,000- 20 yrs=350 Euro/yr 365 days= 0.958 Euro/day 400 transactions=0.002395 Euro per transaction. So initial investment is just about zero.(per transaction)...

...said the milkmaid because my uncle will lend me the capital cost free of any interest, i will set up the ATM rent free in the stable where i milk the cows and with the proceeds of the milk i will feed the ATM all necessary cash and the ATM will be connected to the global network through the existing sewer lines and powered with energy generated by cow farts. maintenance will be done by "Tall Guy from the Land of Smileys, Ltd."

rumour has it that thousands of Farangs in Thailand are now planning to install their own ATMS to save on the 150 Baht "pull fee" and make virtually with every pull by other Farangs an additional 149 Baht profit because "initial investment is just about zero".

one caveat though: the jury in charge has still not decided whether an ATM belonging to a Farang needs a work permit.

[iang]

When using a foreign ATM card in Thailand, simply don't use an ATM! By this I mean that if you want to take out more than the ATM limit (usually THB 20,000), then just take your card inside the bank, along with your passport and ask for a cash advance. You get to deal with a person & not a machine, with the added benefit that you will not be charged THB150 by the Thai bank for the privilege! Works every time....

You will probably still be charged by your overseas bank as usual though....

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

When using a foreign ATM card in Thailand, simply don't use an ATM! By this I mean that if you want to take out more than the ATM limit (usually THB 20,000), then just take your card inside the bank, along with your passport and ask for a cash advance. You get to deal with a person & not a machine, with the added benefit that you will not be charged THB150 by the Thai bank for the privilege! Works every time....

Actually, the correct thing to say would have been "works sometimes."

If you read the banking threads here on TV, you'll find lots of reports where members have gone into a Thai bank wanting to do a so-called "counter withdrawal," only to have the bank staff decline and tell them to go outside to use the regular ATM...

Not sure if the bank staff in those cases is just being lazy... or they're deliberately conscious of the fact that ATM withdrawals draw the 150 baht fee for the bank whereas the counter withdrawals don't...

You also have to be careful of some Thai banks like Siam Commercial, which will process counter withdrawals at a special lower exchange rate they use for in branch counter withdrawals... which is significantly lower than the regular ATM exchange rates that are set by the card networks....not the local Thai bank branches. Not all Thai bank companies take that approach, but Siam Commercial and some others do.

[LandOfSmileys]

you can buy an ATM for between 3-7,000 Euro, ATM 7,000- 20 yrs=350 Euro/yr 365 days= 0.958 Euro/day 400 transactions=0.002395 Euro per transaction. So initial investment is just about zero.(per transaction)...

...said the milkmaid because my uncle will lend me the capital cost free of any interest, i will set up the ATM rent free in the stable where i milk the cows and with the proceeds of the milk i will feed the ATM all necessary cash and the ATM will be connected to the global network through the existing sewer lines and powered with energy generated by cow farts. maintenance will be done by "Tall Guy from the Land of Smileys, Ltd."

rumour has it that thousands of Farangs in Thailand are now planning to install their own ATMS to save on the 150 Baht "pull fee" and make virtually with every pull by other Farangs an additional 149 Baht profit because "initial investment is just about zero".

one caveat though: the jury in charge has still not decided whether an ATM belonging to a Farang needs a work permit.

The ATMs in question here ARE bank owned ATMs, so they don't need to borrow anything, they have capital coming out of their ears, and any other orifice. Setup fee: 100-250 Euro, depending if concrete drilling is needed. Usually just plop it in place, plug in phone and electric. So no extravagant, expensive "setup" cost. Rent for less than a square meter is not going to be the same as renting office space for 10 people. A phone line that dials a single toll-free number is not going to have a gold-plated price tag. And electric consumption for ATMs comes from a world-wide wind power generation network. Even cheaper than cow farts, as the hot air always blows, cows only fart if you feed them.

The ATM needn't be "owned" by the Farang. Just get some street bum Thai to "own" it for you and pay him 2 beers a week.

[Paul888]

It never ceases to amaze me how people are happy to use banks to keep their money safe and allow them access to their money from anywhere but then complain about the bank charging a fee.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It never ceases to amaze me how people are happy to use banks to keep their money safe and allow them access to their money from anywhere but then complain about the bank charging a fee.

It never ceases to amaze me how banks take money from customers, turn around and lend it out for various purposes at substantial interest rates including 20% APR on credit card balances in Thailand, pay next to nothing in interest to the customers making the deposits, and then turn around and charge those same customers fees for many of the things they do in using or accessing their own funds.

And keep your money safe? Wait till someone clones your Thai bank card and drains your account, or steals your wallet and cards and rings up $1,000 in fraudulent POS purchases, and then have the bank tell you they're not responsible and you have to eat all the losses.

Pretty much no PIN-based POS transactions for VISA and MC in Thailand... Just swipe the card and sign, no matter whether the person who's signing is you the cardholder or not. The merchants don't bother to verify IDs and the banks don't care. Because you're going to be stuck paying the bills for any fraudulent charges prior to you reporting the loss or theft to your Thai bank.

Edited December 5, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Paul888]

Banks are businesses. Businesses exist to make money for their owners by providing goods or a service that people are willing to pay for.

Nobody forces you to use any bank or their card but as soon as you do it, you become subject to their terms and conditions.

I am sorry if you have fallen victim to what you describe in your second paragraph, but how can a bank be expected to differentiate between somebody who had their wallet stolen and then took so long to report it that a thief had time to rack up thousands of dollars of debt and somebody who spend this money themselves and then decided to comit fraud. (and yes, people DO do that). The bank protect you AFTER it has been reported lost or stolen an it is your responsibility to amke sure you do that as soon as you notice it is missing. You could ask them to call you before approving every purchase, but they might want an extra fee for that, which brings us back full circle.

As it is most banks now have an excellent (and very cheap) sms service whereby whenever I transact anything on my account, I receive a text within minutes.

Who compensates you for the cash you lost in that stolen wallet btw?

[aurelius]

BTW, the part that's problematic about the Thai banks' 150 baht fee on foreign card us is this:

In Thailand, if you use another Thai banks' ATM card in a different Thai bank's ATM, you might pay a very small fee, particularly if you do more than a handful of those kind of transactions in a month... But if you use a foreign card, they hit you for 150 baht every time. To me that's not fair.

It is perfectly fair if you think about the underlying costs.

In Thailand the domestic inter-bank ATM network is operated by a local company called ITMX and the transactions are processed without hitting the VISA or MasterCard network. The cost structure is therefore different to the international schemes - hence the fees charged are different too. International card transactions are subject to at least 3 different fee types from VISA and MasterCard including currency conversion fees, interchange fees and acquirer ATM surcharges - which combined, create a huge cost on the ATM provider, not mentioning cash loading and balancing costs etc. Some of these charges are % and some are per transaction, but rather than having a % fee that no-one understands and varies according the value, the banks took some commercial risk and set a fixed fee, that if not popular was at least easily communicated. The majority of ATM's operate at a loss, but like most things its 80:20. In fact distribution channels are typically loss making or cost recovery only for banks. The lowest cost channel should be internet - but that's not exactly useful to tourists.

Why would a Thai bank provide ATM cash advance services to foreign tourists as a charity service - its not like the Tourism Authority of Thailand is compensating them!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Banks are businesses. Businesses exist to make money for their owners by providing goods or a service that people are willing to pay for.

You're off the mark in a couple of respects in your broader comments...

1. The banks in Thailand could have moved to a PIN based POS purchasing system, or some other more secure variety, that would have protected cardholders and prevented fraud. Instead, they've left in place a very unsecure system and coupled that with pretty much refusing all liability for the bad results that occur. Customers shouldn't "pay" for that kind of service.

2. I did have my wallet pickpocketed once on SkyTrain, and in the one hour it took me to get home and call my bank to freeze the card, the thief rang up $1,000 U.S. in purchases at Silom Complex... all one right after another... of course, with the person holding the card never being required to show any ID or other verification matching the name on the card...and the person using the card certainly not looking like the farang name on the card at all.

Fortunately, because it was a U.S. bank debit card and NOT Thai bank card, I got all my funds restored in less than two weeks. Had it been a Thai bank debit card, I would have been out the entire $1,000. So please tell me again what a great job the Thai banks are doing to protect me and my money.

3. No one except me would be responsible for cash in my wallet if it's stolen. But I don't carry much any cash in my wallet most of the time just for that reason. And I don't carry and use Thai bank cards either, for that very reason, that they're totally un-secure and have no protection for me in the event of loss or theft.

As far as I'm concerned, Thailand ought to do at least one of two things... Either pass laws and regulations that reasonably protect cardholders from liability for loss and theft, making provision to combat intentional fraud. Or implement a new card system using some variety of secure technology not so open to abuse.

Until they do one or the other, those in charge are failing the residents here, falang and Thai alike.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

International card transactions are subject to at least 3 different fee types from VISA and MasterCard including currency conversion fees, interchange fees and acquirer ATM surcharges - which combined, create a huge cost on the ATM provider, not mentioning cash loading and balancing costs etc.

Aurelius

1. There's never been any detailed cost breakdown justification for the 150 baht ATM fee on foreign card withdrawals. The Thai banks just came up with that figure, and as far as I know, no one in the public has the slightest clue of how it relates to their actual costs for those kinds of international card transations.

2. Some of those costs you mention above are charged directly to the using cardholder by their own bank, in particular, the foreign currency conversation fee, often 2-4% of the withdrawal amount. So the Thai banks who own the ATMs aren't having to pay those fees to VISA or MC out of their pockets. The cardholder is paying them direct. Factor that out of the Thai banks cost equation, and you really wonder how much supposed cost to them is left.

[aurelius]

International card transactions are subject to at least 3 different fee types from VISA and MasterCard including currency conversion fees, interchange fees and acquirer ATM surcharges - which combined, create a huge cost on the ATM provider, not mentioning cash loading and balancing costs etc.

Aurelius

1. There's never been any detailed cost breakdown justification for the 150 baht ATM fee on foreign card withdrawals. The Thai banks just came up with that figure, and as far as I know, no one in the public has the slightest clue of how it relates to their actual costs for those kinds of international card transations.

2. Some of those costs you mention above are charged directly to the using cardholder by their own bank, in particular, the foreign currency conversation fee, often 2-4% of the withdrawal amount. So the Thai banks who own the ATMs aren't having to pay those fees to VISA or MC out of their pockets. The cardholder is paying them direct. Factor that out of the Thai banks cost equation, and you really wonder how much supposed cost to them is left.

1. I agree - I haven't seen anything publicly available on the composition of this fee either, but I do recall that it was introduced after MasterCard changed its fee structure and started charging ATM acquirers for transactions done on their machines - which makes no sense at all, however given the MasterCard board is made up of large US issuers & they were becoming a public company in search of quarterly earnings, making new charges to ATM acquirers seemed all too easy. Thailand is particularly hard hit because of the dominance of in-bound tourists. US banks basically don't own their ATM's anymore, so they are not interested in the impact of such a fee.

2. The schemes charge the banks in addition to the charge to the cardholder; this applies in the case of debit spending as well

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

We're rehashing old history here... But at the time the Thai Bankers Assn. enacted the fee, they claimed it was due to fee increases from the card networks. And at that time, there was an article in the BKK Post on the subject in which a MC spokesman was quoted as denying that there had been any fee increase in the timeframe of the TBA fee announcement.

I don't know whose version of that is true... But given we have no clue how the foreign card ATM fee relates to the Thai banks' actual costs for providing the service, it strikes me as a bit dubious.

In the U.S., if an international Thai bank card holder goes to use a U.S. bank ATM, they're charged exactly the same non home-network fee as a domestic U.S. bankcard holder from some other bank. Typically $2 or $3 per ATM transaction. Absolutely no difference from the ATM operator because the card is from a bank in a different country.

So if the ATM operator fees for handling international card transactions were really so much higher, you'd have to wonder why big banks in the U.S. would be willingly eating those costs ... In reality, I suspect the costs aren't that much higher...and it's a non-issue for most banks in most places, except in Thailand where they've decided to adopt yet another pricing double-standard.

[JimGant]

Bank customers could face $5 ATM fees. In Illinois, JPMorgan Chase is testing $5 fees for non-customers, in Texas, it's $4. If the trial runs make enough money, the fees could be rolled out nationwide, the Wall Street Journal reports.

This from a May article in Huff Post -- and another reaction to the "swipe fee" profit being lowered. Don't know if it took place or not...if so, I guess we can't single out Thailand anymore.

Thai banks are still getting paid interchange fees (about 50 US cents) per ATM transaction (paid by the issuing bank, thus, ultimately you, the card holder). The fee increase for ATM owners was an increase in the network fee they paid (to Visa/MC), heretofore mostly picked-up by the issuing bank. However, they still net about 40 cents overall.

Depending on volume, this certainly could cover the cost of the ATM machine. And, by adding a 150 baht surcharge -- to the tourist 'target market' -- actually a great business plan: Tourists on holiday don't really care (and don't have a decent alternative, although they may make fewer, but larger, pulls); expats mostly have Thai bank accounts, so no fee involved -- or the fee is paid by Schwab (who is glad to get the extra card and brokerage business pushed their way by the 150 baht fee, and its like). Win, Win -- everybody's happy -- well, let's just say no one is unhappy. Except TallGuy, of course.

The majority of ATM's operate at a loss, but like most things its 80:20

If, with managerial accounting, you take the systems approach, I bet you can justify every last ATM machine that's installed. How many branch banks -- and related workers -- have you eliminated? Remember, these machines aren't just cash dispensers, but allow bank customers to deposit money, and do other electronic transactions. Convenience -- and the time value of money -- is just more gravy.

This dated piece about Spain banking is a good example:

Two major technical changes in banking are the expanded use of ATMs to deliver depositor

services and the shift to electronic payments. Over 1992-2000, these two changes in bank

production are estimated to have reduced operating cost by 37%, saving 4.5 billion euros in Spain

(0.7% of GDP). As these trends continue, further savings may be realized.

And, electronic payments are now done via ATM machine -- as it sounds like they weren't in the 1992-2000 time frame mentioned. Thus, a two-for-one with today's ATMs.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just like BofA's proposed $5 monthly debit card usage fee recently went down the drain amid a huge consumer backlash, along with similar proposals from other large banks, I don't think the rumored ATM fees Jim's posted on above ever came to be.

Here's the current info from Chase's accounts disclosure document:

ATM and Debit Card Fees

Non-Chase ATM Inquiry, Transfer, Withdrawal At a non-Chase ATM within the

United States, Puerto Rico and the

US Virgin Islands -- $2.00/inquiry, transfer, withdrawal

For accounts opened in IN, KY, and TX $2.50/inquiry, transfer, withdrawal

https://apply.chase....0VOR19WMzUuZmRm

$5 ATM fees in Thailand, huh?

ATM fees march upward in 2011

By Claes Bell • Bankrate.com

The 2011 edition of Bankrate's Checking Survey shows ATM fees rising to

record highs for the seventh consecutive year. The average fee banks

charge noncustomers to use their ATMs rose 3 percent, from $2.33 in 2010

to $2.40 in 2011. The most common fee charged is now $3.

http://www.bankrate....rd-in-2011.aspx

And from the Wall Street Journal in May 2010:

Banks charge an average of $2.66 each time a consumer uses an ATM to withdraw cash, according to the Federal Reserve. In some cases, such as at casinos or airports, those fees reach as much as $5 a transaction. ................

[sen. Harkin's] amendment would require the consumer financial protection agency, another proposal under consideration in the bank-overhaul bill, to make ATM operators limit their fees to the cost of providing the service.

By his calculations, based on those made by the Office of Thrift Supervision in 1997, the cost today is about 36 cents per transaction. That's up from 27 cents in 1997, with inflation factored in.

"That's on the high side," he said. "It assumes that any improvement in technology has not brought down costs, which obviously they have."

http://online.wsj.co...3945215160.html

If a domestic U.S. ATM transaction actually costs 36 cents, do we really think the cost to Thai banks to handle international transactions -- apart from the foreign currency fee the cardholder typically already pays to their home bank and the card networks -- is so much more?

More than likely, the Thai $5 fee is simply a rip... And btw, I don't pay it...or have it reimbursed.

Edited December 5, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK